EPIC Urges FTC To Investigate Google Services

snydeq writes "The Electronic Privacy Information Center filed a 15-page complaint asking the FTC to force Google to stop offering online services that collect data until the presence of adequate privacy safeguards is verified. The EPIC also wants Google to disclose all data loss or breach incidents, citing several incidents where data held by Google was at risk, the most recent of which occurred earlier this month with its Google Docs. The EPIC complaint [PDF] also listed other security flaws in Gmail and Google Desktop, a desktop indexing program, and urged Google to donate $5 million to a public fund that will support research into technologies such as encryption, data anonymization and mobile location privacy." EPIC has raised privacy concerns about Google before, and about Windows XP as well.

Comments

Google collecting data?!

[the cleaner]

Really?! Does that mean I have to remove all my mail from GMail?!

Re:Google collecting data?!

[vancondo]

Really?! Does that mean I have to remove all my mail from GMail?!

Yes, from here on out it is recommended that you channel all of your personal correspondence through facebook. They'll keep it safe for ever and ever, or at least until the robot uprising.

Once the robot uprising starts it is recommended you limit your personal correspondence to smoke signals generate by burning piles of plastic bags.

Just be careful, the robots can smell fear.

--
vancouvercondo.info

It is way too dangerous to use Google's products

[Anonymous Coward]

Stick with Microsoft if you want security.

Uh huh...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and let me guess, they will be running that fund? *rolls eyes*

Just what we need, another busy-body self-proclaimed agency trying to control private industry. WTF do these guys come from?

The real reason...

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA:

"It also would like the company to donate $5 million to a public fund that will support research into technologies such as encryption, data anonymization and mobile location privacy."

The real reason for the filing is hidden in the last paragraph.

Re:The real reason...

[digitalunity]

Not hidden very well. Just where do you think that $5M would go?

EPIC sounds like a public research entity. Gee, I wonder if they would be asking the FTC to fine Google and give the money back to EPIC.

I try not to be skeptical all the time, but news like this consistently reinforces my view that freeloaders will always be out there trying to take what they can't earn from people who are more successful than they are.

Re:The real reason...

[__aasqbs9791]

I'll have to remember that the next time I'm making a budget.

me: "And now for the IT budget for the upcoming quarter, my forecast shows we need $pi million dol..."

PHB: "What?"

me: "That's $3,141,592.65, but a short, easier way to say it."

PHB: not quite under breath: "Damn geeks."

"Beta" apps?

[ryane67]

Does it make any difference that many of these Google services are free and "in beta"? (didnt read the filing)

It's never safe.

[Hoyty1]

I just live with the assumption that everyone is reading my documents and information. That's why I write everything important on paper! Good old paper... Kindle will never replace you...

Re:It's never safe.

[Big Hairy Ian]

There are a number of exploits for paper based storage. Amongst the most commonly used are Photocopiers & Fax machines. In the end no storage medium is absolutely safe.

good

[geekoid]

" The EPIC also wants Google to disclose all data loss or breach incidents, citing several incidents where data held by Google was at risk,..."

Good, I hope they get their way.
However, if Google s forced to do that, I suspect there efforts to be better at privacy will make the 5 millin dollar donation unnecessary.

EPIC fail, you mean

[girlintraining]

You know, I might have taken them a bit more seriously if the summary didn't end with and urged Google to donate $5 million to a public fund. So that's what it's about then -- money. Political statements that end in requests for donation do a good job of discrediting themselves simply because it's hard to believe that someone could be walking the high road of idealism while at the same time asking for a handout.

Re:EPIC fail, you mean

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, these days, even EPIC could use a little bit of a bailout. As an AIG employee, it seems like a perfectly reasonable request to me. We cannot allow privacy groups to fail.

Re:EPIC fail, you mean

[girlintraining]

Well, these days, even EPIC could use a little bit of a bailout. As an AIG employee, it seems like a perfectly reasonable request to me. We cannot allow privacy groups to fail.

EPIC's gross income for FY2007 was less than a million dollars, and they have about $2 million in assets. They've been steadily losing ground in the donations department. A $5 million "public fund" they could dive into would assure there continued existance (and $128k yearly salary for their president) for some time. I think the financial motivation here is quite clear. Their relevance, however, is not. The ACLU, by comparison, had $80 million in revenue in Q3/07 alone. The administrative overhead is also lower, and they claim to also be advocating privacy. Frankly, EPIC is a tiny finish in a big pond--they need to grab headlines to survive, and attacking Google seems carefully calculated to do just that. Google's "do no evil" slogan opens themselves up to groups like this who want a handout and can manipulate the press to get Google to sign over some of their $5.2 BILLION in revenue for FY2008, and $12.1 BILLION in assets.

So for Google to pay them some hush money wouldn't even earn a mention in their financial highlights, but for EPIC, it would be, well, epic for them to pull in $5 million.

Re:EPIC fail, you mean

[garett_spencley]

If people are concerned about their privacy and don't trust Google then they will avoid google products. Plain and simple.

If the government steps in and starts requiring companies to comply with various privacy regulations etc. it will only serve to discourage new entry into the industry, helping Google to secure a monopoly on online services. It would do the exact opposite of what privacy advocates want.

There are lots of alternatives out there if you don't want Google to have access to all of your e-mail and search history etc. If you don't care and Google satisfies you then it doesn't matter, use Google. If you are concerned then don't use Google. We don't need the government to help us make these decisions. We can think and choose for ourselves, and discussing these issues is the first step to informing people who don't know. Asking government to keep us safe helps to safe-guard public ignorance, since they know that Big Brother will always have their backs and thus there is no need to think, listen or do research for themselves. That spells a far worse privacy nightmare than the current situation.

Re:EPIC fail, you mean

[girlintraining]

If people are concerned about their privacy and don't trust Google then they will avoid google products. Plain and simple.

Ah, not necessarily. You assume that people care more about privacy than accessibility and ease of use. This fails to account for people that may be concerned about their privacy, don't trust google, but use it anyway because their level of risk (loss of privacy) is less than the amount of benefit in continuing to use Google. I could argue that market forces allow Google more egregious violations of privacy than its smaller competitors; And further that this is okay because people are making a conscious decision to sacrifice their privacy to gain the "google advantage" (apologies for the market-speak). Please carefully note I am not supporting either position here, merely informing you that they exist.

If the government steps in and starts requiring companies to comply with various privacy regulations etc. it will only serve to discourage new entry into the industry, helping Google to secure a monopoly on online services. It would do the exact opposite of what privacy advocates want.

Your health care records are protected by federal privacy laws. There is no monopoly (there IS a large broken system, however) in that area. As well, California has passed numerous privacy laws that do not seem to encourage monopolistic behavior. As long as the burden of protecting privacy does not create a significant addition to the total cost of entry for a new competitor into the market in question, this principle should be broadly applicable to all industries (including search engine / service providers).

There are lots of alternatives out there if you don't want Google to have access to all of your e-mail and search history etc.

I would argue they all suck. Google at least makes that information readily accessible and usable to me. The alternatives still get all my e-mail and search history, but I don't get even a cuddle afterwords.

We don't need the government to help us make these decisions.

And what decisions should the government "help us" on, if not in the area of civil rights and liberties, of which the Supreme Court has recognized privacy as an inalienable human right (even though there is no language in the constitution providing for it -- under the assertion that rights not specifically delegated to the State are reserved by the People).

We can think and choose for ourselves, and discussing these issues is the first step to informing people who don't know.

I would argue some of us are merely rearranging our prejudices in what passes for thought. And nowhere is discussion more valuable or prevalent than on the legislator's floor, or in his/her office.

Asking government to keep us safe helps to safe-guard public ignorance, since they know that Big Brother will always have their backs and thus there is no need to think, listen or do research for themselves. That spells a far worse privacy nightmare than the current situation.

The government, at least in theory, is of, for, and by the people. I don't think corporations can say the same. For privacy to be effective, it has to be universal. Because otherwise the economic incentive to people who aren't playing the "privacy game" will remain and so no lasting industry alliance will ever form. The only way to assure privacy across the board is to legislate it.

Could always try NOT using those services

[Gothmolly]

You know, if you're not comfortable about Google (possibly) sharing your stuff, then DONT USE THEM.

Re:Could always try NOT using those services

[b4dc0d3r]

You'll end up using Google one way or another. Google Analytics, Adsense, or other advertising. Or the default search bar on a browser. Or a google map someone sends you for directions, or embedded in a real estate page. You can't avoid it, and at some point they will put enough of a picture together, with their Phorm-like data mining.

Not using Google is not an option, even if you try to avoid it. Disable JavaScript and third-party cookies, never search for anything... you could TRY not using them but won't get you very far.

Re:Could always try NOT using those services

[garett_spencley]

If people care about these issues, they will stop using them.

People who are REALLY concerned about Google data mining will block all Google domains in the HOSTS file and will explain to their friends and relatives that they can't view the Google map precisely because of all of the privacy concerns. They will recommend alternatives like map quest etc. Web-sites that use Adsense will switch to alternatives because enough of their surfers are blocking Google that it's more profitable to use something else. This will start to cut into Google's bottom line and they will get the message and alter their practices.

UNLESS ...

The government steps in with extensive privacy regulations. This will make it difficult for new companies to enter into the market because they will need to make sure that they are complying with these expensive regulations etc. Not to mention that everyone feels all safe and rosey because Big Brother is watching out for them. So they have no reason to consider alternatives anyway. This will help to secure a monopoly for Google (and the other big giant megacorps who can afford to not only spend the resources complying with these regulations but also lobbying the government for even more regulations because they help to keep out competition). This would create a far worse privacy nightmare than the current situation or the free market alternative.

Re:Could always try NOT using those services

[vux984]

This will start to cut into Google's bottom line and they will get the message and alter their practices.

The problem isn't googles =practices-. The problem is googles -size-.

I really couldn't care less if a some reasonable percentage of sites I visit all get ads from the same provider using cookies.

I really couldn't care less if a webmail provider could potentially data mine my webmail to serve me ads on the webmail site.

I really couldn't care less if a bunch of sites i visit use the same analytics system.

It bothers me greatly however, that virtually all the sites I visit get ads from the same provider, that also is datamining webmail, and also has a huge piece of the analytics pie. Oh and they want my documents, maps, pictures of my house, and phone call logs too.

Individually each piece is relatively worthless. Its the difference between [seeing what someone at the mall is looking at], and [seeing what someone at the mall is looking at, seeing where they went next, seeing what kind of car they drive, seeing where they live, overhearing their conversations, seeing them at work...] In both cases you are just 'seeing' what people do in public, which isn't a privacy breach... but systematically following people around isn't merely 'seeing them in public'. Its stalking. Its surveillance.

The only regulation that needs to be applied is a sort of 'anti stalking' legislation. It won't affect small/new companies, because they aren't big enough to see enough to cross the stalking threshold.

Meanwhile a company like google would need to be careful, because they effectively are stalking people on the web. Often able to track virtually everything you do on the web.

Like I said, I don't care if google sees me out on the 'public web'. But I don't like being stalked by them everywhere I go.

Talk about raining on someone's parade....

[TomXP411]

Wow.

Love Google or hate Google, I think we'd all agree that Google has done more for consumers on the Internet in the last decade than just about any other single company. Nobody offers Google's breadth of services at any price, let alone free. That doesn't excuse any potential mismanagement of personal information, but I have to wonder how much of this is fueled by market pressures: if you can't compete, { sue | accuse of a crime | sabotage | buy }.

I'm getting so sick of the way the business world operates. My philosophy has always been "mission first", or your first priority is to serve your customer's needs and forward the mission of the company. You charge money to accomplish this goal, not the other way around. But the business world has lost sight of this goal, and instead chooses to use any dirty trick necessary to force competition out of business. In the end, this kind of atmosphere hurts us all.

Re:Talk about raining on someone's parade....

[TomXP411]

See, that's the part I don't get. This big, nebulous word "Privacy" doesn't mean much in the real world. I have a gmail account, for example. What specific privacy am I giving up by using gmail as opposed to hotmail, Yahoo Mail, or my own ISP's mail service? All of those services' mailboxes can be read by administrators, and your ISP has a lot more of your information than Google does. Can you give me a specific example of how some specific breach of "privacy" would be used against you? Forget about stupid user mistakes (hosting confidential information on Google Docs, for example) or conspiracy theory stuff (The FBI comes to get you without a warrant because of something you typed in a Google search), and give me a real world example of how your privacy would be violated under ordinary circumstances.

Gears

[crumbz]

Epic should stop f*cking around with Google and get back to work on Gears of War 3 already..... Really, what is Phoenix supposed to do next, now that the Locust Horde has been *temporarily* stopped.

Cluestick

[Omega]

Wait. You mean Google is taking the data I'm storing for free on their servers mining it for information to use in contextual advertising just like I agreed to in the terms and conditions when I signed up?

And also, I want a pony.

Re:Again, Nah.

[girlintraining]

Because you need one to stand on?

No, it's just that I have to be somewhere in an hour and it's going to be hard to get into the car with a wrinkled troll with giant teeth still attached to my leg, hissing and drooling.