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Piracy Case Could Change Canadian Web Landscape

meatheadmike writes to tell us that a recent Canadian court case brought against the Canadian Recording Industry Association by isoHunt Web Technologies, Inc, could drastically change the web landscape in Canada. "The question before the British Columbia Supreme Court is if a site such as isoHunt allows people to find a pirated copy of movies such as Watchmen or The Dark Knight, is it breaching Canadian copyright law? 'It's a huge can of worms," said David Fewer, acting director of the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic at the University of Ottawa. 'I am surprised that this litigation has gone under the radar as much as it has. I do think this is the most important copyright litigation going on right now.'"

43 of 156 comments (clear)

  1. Bad news by MrEricSir · · Score: 3, Funny

    If you can download their movie for free, Terrance and Phillip are going to go bankrupt.

    --
    There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
  2. Different jurisdiction, same story. by palegray.net · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So this is like the Pirate Bay case, only the issues are being examined in Canada. Hope there's enough people making noise about this up north to have an impact.

    1. Re:Different jurisdiction, same story. by KillerBob · · Score: 4, Funny

      This is Canada. We don't make noise. We write letters. And only if it's about something that's really really annoying.

      It's also not really something we need to worry about in Canadian copyright law... all the ISOHunt people need to show is that they are not actually making the files available themselves. In Canadian copyright law, it's ok to copy/share materials as long as it's not for material gain, and you're not distributing on a large scale.

      --
      If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
    2. Re:Different jurisdiction, same story. by grcumb · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is Canada. We don't make noise. We write letters. And only if it's about something that's really really annoying.

      Yeah, things like the invasion of Poland, or when someone (ahem!) burnt down the city of York. Of course, we deliver those letters personally, and staple the envelope to the forehead of the recipient. Repeatedly.

      ...And politely.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    3. Re:Different jurisdiction, same story. by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Informative

      >>>So this is like the Pirate Bay case, only the issues are being examined in Canada.

      I don't know why you were labeled insightful", because you're flat wrong. Piratebay provides the tracker server which enables piracy. Isohunt does not. Isohunt is like google, a search engine, which means technically they are doing absolutely nothing wrong.

      The fact that google links to all websites, where isohunt only links to torrent sites, is the basis of this case and has implications for ALL search engines, as it may require them to stop linking to torrent sites too.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:Different jurisdiction, same story. by mariushm · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Pirate Bay (TPB) offers an "optional" tracker that can be used for either legal or illegal purposes.

      You can however post a torrent on TPB without any of the Pirate Bay trackers, so in this case TPB will act just like IsoHunt.

    5. Re:Different jurisdiction, same story. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      As for the latter, that was the British. I realize this is a matter of some national pride for Canadians, but history does not bear it out. The commander was Irish born and the regiments were all various British units who had recently been freed up by the end of the Napoleonic War. No Canadian raised units (which were primarily militias) participated. The razing of the White House was strictly a British affair and did not involve the predecessors of modern Canadians.

      Battle of Bladensburg.

    6. Re:Different jurisdiction, same story. by dadragon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes. The invasion of Poland is largely considered to be the start of the Second World War, beginning 1 Sept 1939. The United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand declared war on 3 September 1939, and Canada on 10 Sept 1939.

      The Americans think of Pearl Harbour being the start of the Second World War, 7 Dec, 1941, but the fighting in Europe had been going on for two years already.

      --
      God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
  3. Can somebody explain what it's all about? by guruevi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't understand. Is the torrent site suing the CRIAA (Canadian Recording Industry Assh*les from America) to see whether non-Canadian content is copyrighted by the CRIAA? I thought those companies were subsidiaries of the recording companies and they just cross-license their stuff.

    Legalese is so very confusing.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    1. Re:Can somebody explain what it's all about? by snowraver1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, they are suing becouse this is a grey area in the legal system and isohunt is tired of getting harassed my various right holders. They initiated the lawsuit so that a judge would finally decide if they run an illigal business or not.

      --
      Copyright 2010. All rights reserved. This comment may not be copied in any way including, but not limited to caching.
  4. Laws and stuff by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Everyone yells and jumps about over copyright. And while in truth yes, it will have an effect on our lives and how we conduct business, the law will never settle the matter. No matter how many judgements, treaties, proclaimations, arrests, convictions, and everything else we throw at it, it cannot change the fact that the internet is global. You can't stop the signal, nobody can. We can't simply dismantle the network, and try as we might to control what goes over it, if a connection can be made someone will figure out a way to get the data through. The internet doesn't care about copyright. It exists to transmit information between people, and nothing will ever deny that power. Not as long as it exists.

    We might bear witness to a fifty year war on copyright, pirates, and blah blah blah, but the problem will never go away. The signal will always be there, someone will always have a copy, and eventually the economic drain that will come from fighting this war will bankrupt its supporters. Eventually. It might not happen in five years, or twenty, but it will happen.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Laws and stuff by Rip+Dick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sounds reminiscent of the war on drugs...

    2. Re:Laws and stuff by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sounds reminiscent of the war on drugs...

      The laws are screwy. I can take a 2x4 to your head and be out in six months for aggravated assault, but spend ten years in jail for downloading a song you made. I think we're already there.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    3. Re:Laws and stuff by CannonballHead · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hope you didn't illegally download that 2x4. ;)

    4. Re:Laws and stuff by GenP · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hope you didn't illegally download that 2x4. ;)

      You jest, but the day is coming...

  5. and your browser runs Google... by thedonger · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...and your OS runs your browser, and your bios loads your OS, and your hardware is the platform on which your bios runs, and your hardware uses electricity, which is generated by the power company by burning coal, which is mined from the earth. So really, this all the fault of the planet.

    --
    Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
    1. Re:and your browser runs Google... by Bureaucromancer · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or maybe this all indicates that the coal mining company is supporting piracy? Sue the power company.

  6. Not quite... by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's different because Canadians have ALREADY paid for the content, in the form of a levy on all storage media. So the media companies want to be paid twice.

    1. Re:Not quite... by snowraver1 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I could be misinterpreting this, but this is not about individuals. In Canada, as I understand, it is not illigal to download copyrighted works for personal use. Under Canadian law, commercial infringment is still very much illigal, but infringement for personal use, and no financial gain, is not illigal.

      The issue at hand here is whether or not an individual/corporate entity can link to a copyrighted files (or in this case link to a file that has a link to look for a list of people that might have the file you need).

      --
      Copyright 2010. All rights reserved. This comment may not be copied in any way including, but not limited to caching.
    2. Re:Not quite... by Jurily · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's different because Canadians have ALREADY paid for the content, in the form of a levy on all storage media. So the media companies want to be paid twice.

      They want to be paid as many times as they can. Remember DRM?

    3. Re:Not quite... by shark72 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The article in question is about downloading movies. You're referring to the Canadian levy on blank CDs, which goes to Canadian recording artists and Canadian record labels. If you've bought a blank CD in Canada, odds are that none of it went to the people who worked on The Dark Knight or Watchmen -- both products of the USA.

      Your purchase of blank media might give you a sense of moral justice in pirating, say, Celine Dion or Bryan Adams tracks... if this is ample justification for you, then go about your merry pirating ways and God bless you. But it would be a stretch to apply this moral justice to downloading Watchmen.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    4. Re:Not quite... by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The issue at hand here is whether or not an individual/corporate entity can link to a copyrighted files (or in this case link to a file that has a link to look for a list of people that might have the file you need).

      I think this case is great news.
      Either the court sides with isoHunt and the issue is permanently settled...
      OR the court sides with the CRIA and the search engines hire lobbyists to fight it out and get the law changed.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    5. Re:Not quite... by mark-t · · Score: 2, Informative

      That levy on storage media is intended to subsidize private use copying. Putting something on your computer so that anybody can access it when they have a link to it and then publicly posting that link for anybody to find sort of forgoes any notion that might have otherwise existed that the copy was just for private use, don't you think?

    6. Re:Not quite... by MadnessASAP · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm a Canadian and I download music and movies, I do buy blank media but I don't buy it for moral justice, I buy it because I need somewhere to put the movies and music. I don't NEED to settle my morals because frankly I don't give a shit. I'm around when some of my friends watch those paparazzi shows and if Hollywood can afford those clowns ridiculous lifestyle then it can sure as hell afford my free copy of Watchmen.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    7. Re:Not quite... by penguinstorm · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's not /strictly/ true. It's true that "fair use" and "format shifting" are established more firmly here than in the U.S.

      In Canada it's always been legal to make copies for personal use. This means that it's perfectly OK for you to take a line output from your 8 track stereo to your line in on your Mac Pro and create a digtal copy of that Rush 2112 album you bought in 1976.

      Similarly, it's fairly clearly legal for you to rip a copy of the Serenity Special Edition DVD you've bought to watch on your iPhone. You're breaking encryption, but it's probably still legal.

      To extend from that to "it's not illegal to download copyrighted works for personal use" is a stretch. Essentially the point in the scenarios above if that you've already /paid/ for a "licence" at whatever prevailing rate the things costs. From there, you can shift your format...you don't need to buy multiple licences (though you obviously can.)

      Whether this justifies the liberation of content gets into muddier waters. If I buy the DVD can I download a copy and say that's my "other format?" Maybe....maybe....the source may be illegal, but technically I do "own it" but I'm not sure that's justification. (Though I may use it as justification also.)

      In the case of over the air TV shows such as "30 Rock" I don't have to "pay" for a licence. It's paid for by advertisers. If I download it without advertisements...different situation. It's not like anybody's lost money, except in the abstract sense that the network could have made _more_ money through advertising revenue with a larger audience...unless of course I watched it live as well.

      In the case of a Compact Disc there's a more direct cause and effect: if I download a liberated copy of the medi, somebody's lost money. Labels aren't going to keep putting out music for no money, and bands aren't going to be able to record if nobody ever buys albums (touring revenue notwithstanding.)

      The media levy muddies the waters a bit, but only a bit.

      --
      Skot Nelson music is my saviour / i was maimed by rock and roll
    8. Re:Not quite... by c1t1z3nk41n3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This while true is besides the point. Hollywood still makes more than enough money and it isn't anyone elses fault that they distribute it to a small minority of the people who make their products.

    9. Re:Not quite... by ubergeek65536 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course bands will still be able to record without the record labels, what they won't be able to do is spend $100K on recording an album. Nirvana recorded Bleach for $600 You're also forgetting that the vast majority of acts make their income from performances not from record deals. http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

    10. Re:Not quite... by penguinstorm · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't disagree with your assertion, but that's your personal politics of music not the legality at play.

      Neko Case told Paste Magazine that touring payed for her farm in Vermont, not recording. I believe strongly in supporting musicians while they're touring, and detest the face that I'm basically supporting Ticketmaster most of the time anyway.

      Nirvana may have recorded Bleach for $600 but most of those millions of eventual fans didn't go see them because they bought Bleach, and even fewer of them went to see them at Neumo's.

      Most of those fans heard of Nirvana long after they'd been signed by a major label and given a massive promotion and marketing push.

      I'm not saying a similar story /couldn't/ have happened if they'd just toured like crazy, I'm saying the story you're telling happened in the current system and not outside of it.

      I feel similarly about Radiohead's succesful "experiment" with selling In Rainbow's direct, btw. It really wasn't that interesting an experiment...it was a band that had benefited from millions of dollars of earlier promotion leveraging their name recognition. It's much more interesting to see what new bands are doing with the new medium...those bands that aren't signing with major labels (like the aforementioned Divine Ms. Case, who's been asked to do so more than once but values her integrity and independence.)

      It's about the legality, not the politics. In Canada if I've seen an artist live does that give me the right to liberate all of their music? I've asked this myself...I keep going to /see/ Kathleen Edwards but I don't own much of her music. Can I liberate it? I don't think it's legal.

      Followup question: if I borrow a CD from the library and rip it, is it legal for me to keep it?

      --
      Skot Nelson music is my saviour / i was maimed by rock and roll
    11. Re:Not quite... by damiangerous · · Score: 4, Informative

      Essentially the point in the scenarios above if that you've already /paid/ for a "licence" at whatever prevailing rate the things costs.

      Incorrect. Any person can make a copy of any copyrighted musical work for their own personal use. It doesn't mean they can only copy things they already own, it doesn't matter if they've paid anything for it at all. You can come to my house and copy all my CDs, and so can everyone I know. You may also invite anyone to come to your house and make copies of your CDs, including the ones you copied from me. Making any copy of any recording for personal use is not infringement.

      See the "Copying for Private Use" section of the Canadian Copyright Act: http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33770

    12. Re:Not quite... by corychristison · · Score: 3, Funny

      Followup question: if I borrow a CD from the library and rip it, is it legal for me to keep it?

      Absolutely not. You didn't pay anyone the right to even use it (at least that's how I think they might see it in court)

      But if you rent a BlurRay movie from Blockbuster or Rogers Video and are forced to 'rip' it to your Linux PC to play on your 40" TV screen (as you have a BD drive in your PC, but do not own a standalone player) and just happen to *forget* to delete the copy off your hard drive after you return it could be a different story.

      For some reason that seems to happen to me 2, sometimes 3 times a week. ;-)

    13. Re:Not quite... by multipartmixed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, it IS legal to rip a library CD, and to keep the copy. That's black-letter law in Canada, and why we pay the blank media levy.

      You can copy and keep anything -- the interesting wording in the law says, IIRC, that the person doing the copying must also be the one doing the keeping.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
  7. Why this wording? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    if a site such as isoHunt allows people to find a pirated copy of movies such as Watchmen or The Dark Knight, is it breaching Canadian copyright law?

    I don't get it.

    Are they trying to subtly make a point that only certain movies should be protected?

    Or do they really feel that the general public doesn't know what a "movie" is, and could use some examples?

    Maybe it's a nitpick, but something about that language just seems gratuitous, yet most news media seems to do just that.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    1. Re:Why this wording? by TuaAmin13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think they mean obviously commercially copyrighted works.

      How would I know if your youtube video that is posted on a torrent site is freely distributed by you or someone else? This is the worst case "it obviously is not free"

    2. Re:Why this wording? by gslj · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In Canada, musical recordings and movies leave copyright after fifty years. (Written works leave copyright fifty years after the death of the author). That means that an extensive list of movies is public domain (in Canada) and can be legally downloaded. For example,

      Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937)
      The Wizard of Oz (1939)
      Fantasia (1940)
      20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (1954)
      Lady and the Tramp (1955)

      I used a torrent the other day to get a copy of music that my dad used to have on album, "Yvonne de Carlo Sings." The date: 1957. I'd argue that the torrent search engine and I are in the clear on this one.

      The one proviso: when Disney restores the colour or re-engineers the sound track, the copyright clock starts ticking again ON THE REVISED VERSION, which is why Disney does that so often.

      By the way, if anyone knows where I can get a torrent of the film "Dr. Ehrlich's Magic Bullet" (1940) or Thurber's "The Male Animal" (1942) please let me know.

      -Gareth

    3. Re:Why this wording? by camperdave · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The one proviso: when Disney restores the colour or re-engineers the sound track, the copyright clock starts ticking again ON THE REVISED VERSION, which is why Disney does that so often.

      One could argue, though, that the remastered version is merely a derivative work and covered under the original copyright. Just as changing the font of a novel would not cause it to be a new copyrightable book.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  8. purely legal by salparadyse · · Score: 2, Informative

    The intent of the site is that people searching it can find the location of copyrighted materials.

    Since the consequences of putting up such "sign posts" is that people will find this material it is therefore arguable that the consequences were foreseen (if disregarded).
    This is called inferred intent. The principle comes from UK Criminal Law but is applicable universally because it speak of a basic truth. That to recklessly ignore the natural consequences of your actions, but to carry on with those actions anyway, is tantamount to intending those consequences.
    Ergo - the site's purpose is to facilitate the downloading of copyrighted materials.
    Ergo - they are guilty.
    As to whether they are guilty of a moral crime is another matter.

    1. Re:purely legal by mariushm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Sorry, no.

      IsoHunt acts as a search engine and returns torrent files that can be either "legal" or "illegal".

      No search engine can determine with 100% accuracy if something is legal or not, not even Google.

      If I record a movie in my own garden, I can release the video on my website or even on The Pirate Bay with a license saying that only the people in my home town have the right to download the video and the rest don't.

      IsoHunt will index the torrent file nevertheless and from your point of view, IsoHunt indexes an illegal torrent that should be taken down, but from my (the creator) point of view it's perfectly legal.

      It's the USER'S RESPONSIBILITY to read the terms of the license, the description of the torrent file I made and download the movie if he believes he's allowed to.

      So what I'm saying is that a movie or song or any binary data can be copyrighted but also can be legal to download it, it's illegal to distribute/download/upload/whatever something you don't have rights to do that and IsoHunt or any other search engine can't know that.

      You can use Google nowadays for much worse things than copyright infringement, things like how to make a lockpick, how to prepare cocaine, how to steal a car, how to make a gun... but apparently a company's loss is important enough to stop something very useful to a lot of people.

      It's not even worth to start commenting about cases where a company makes a movie making millions in US but doesn't feel it's worth releasing a DVD or a VHS to a small country, because they estimate they'll sell very few copies there and the profits will be smaller than the distribution and fabrication costs.

      When this company retains copyright over something but yet keeps that something locked and unavailable to where I am, is that company really losing any money or suffers any losses if someone copies and gives away that stuff for free in that country? Should that company be allowed to keep copyright for 90 years on that? What was copyright supposed to be for, anyway?

    2. Re:purely legal by mariushm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And how would you do that?

      Let's say you have "Madonna.jpg"

      How is IsoHunt supposed to know if it's
      (a) a scan of a Madonna CD artwork (illegal)
      (b) a picture you made with a camera of a Madonna statue
      (c) a picture of your girlfriend you like to nickname "Madonna"
      (d) a picture of the cover of a book that has Madonna in the name.

      Or, if I make a movie of myself and friend at a party, dancing on Prince's music, and I label it "Prince - Purple rain.avi" should IsoHunt remove it because it may be the actual video of the song or should IsoHunt staff be forced to download it and count how many seconds of Purple Rain actually are (if any) so that they can determine if it's fair use (less than 30 seconds of song) or not?

      If it's more than 30 seconds, do they use the Canadian laws where IsoHunt is, or MY laws, which may consider any length of song fair use?

  9. Re:Not surprising. by dubbreak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That question has already been asked here in the USA. Is linking illegal in the US? YES in the US.

    There, fixed that for you.

    --
    "If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
  10. indexing is not copying by RichMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    repeat after me indexing is not copying.

    No matter how much the RIAA wants you to think otherwise. Indexing or making other available of where to find something is very different from actually making it available.

    Also making it available is not the same as copying it. People who put a movie up on a server are not violating copyright. Digital media must be copied to temporary storage to be played.

    Do not listen to the RIAA and their weird interpretation of what is a violation of copyright.

  11. Re:Not surprising. by Vu1turEMaN · · Score: 5, Insightful

    +1 cause you're technically right, but seriously, if America thinks its illegal, they'll pressure someone else to think the same thing.

    Only reason why tv-links went down was because of US involvement.

  12. OK - so here - do this by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 2, Interesting
    to get fairly quick access to any music title you want.

    go to Google and type in:

    "bandName" "recordTitle" download inurl:blogspot

    just substitute "bandName" with the name of the band you want and "recordTitle" with the title you need from them.

    BANG.

    the blogs linking to them come up.

    sigh. So simple and convenient...

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  13. Re:Not surprising. by dubbreak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    +1 cause you're technically right, but seriously, if America thinks its illegal, they'll pressure someone else to think the same thing.

    Only reason why tv-links went down was because of US involvement.

    Completely true. The US attempts to push its ideals on other countries (I don't even need to give any examples, as anyone should be able to think of quite a few).

    There are many items where Canada has held it's own on standpoints (copyright so far, leniency on marijuana etc). My biggest complaint is that the general viewpoint of "Americans" (as we refer to US citizens even though they aren't the only country in america) is that their viewpoint is the only right on and everyone else should follow suit.

    My original post was to clarify that:
    illegal in the US != illegal in other countries

    Hardly redundant, and an important point to make as it seems many aren't clear on that.

    --
    "If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill