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Dealing With a Copyright Takedown Request?

George Maschke writes "I recently received a takedown notice from a corporate lawyer demanding that I remove a post on my Web site's message board. It purportedly lists the first 75 of 567 questions on the MMPI-2 paper-and-pencil psychological test. It seems to me that such posting of a limited amount copyrighted material for discussion purposes on a public-interest, non-profit Web site falls within the scope of the fair use exemption of US copyright law. I have thus declined to remove the post. I believe that the corporation in question is seeking to chill public discussion of its test, which applicants for employment with many governmental agencies are required to complete. I would be interested in this community's thoughts on the matter."

85 of 547 comments (clear)

  1. Nothing to see here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This post is temporarily unavailable due to a DMCA takedown notice received by our web hosting company's bandwidth provider. We have sent our service provider a counter-notice and plan to have the original content of this post back up no later than 6 April 2009.

    Ah, looking forward to the /. dupe.

  2. Advice by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm sure most people will agree that what you've done falls well within the realm of fair use. But you know very well that you're going to need to talk to legal counsel with expertise in copyright matters, and that means money. Maybe someone with contacts in the Electronic Frontier Foundation could give you a hand. Sometimes having a lawyer responding to the guy making the threat is enough to make them back down.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    1. Re:Advice by rackserverdeals · · Score: 4, Informative

      Fair use is an affirmative defense, you can't just claim it as a right but have to prove your use was "fair" in court.

      As a site owner, I believe he is protected by the safe harbor provisions; the takedown notice likely identifies the forum poster as in violation and not the site. So he can just pass along the take down notice to the poster and let him deal with it. But to retain safe harbor protections he will have to take the message down until there is a resolution.

      A good site to visit is eff.org. I believe you can forward the take down notice to them and they will either take on the case or forward it to a lawyer that might help for a fee. Or maybe that's just for cease and desist orders? Anyway, the site is a good place to start looking for information.

      I'm not a lawyer.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
    2. Re:Advice by unlametheweak · · Score: 5, Funny

      And now for the standard disclaimer: Legal advice is given by an attorney duly admitted to practice law...

      Bullshit. I'm not a lawyer and I give legal advice all the time, sometimes on things I'm barely competent to even talk about.

    3. Re:Advice by yali · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Fair use is an affirmative defense, you can't just claim it as a right but have to prove your use was "fair" in court.

      Mod parent up -- this quote is key. Popular folklore on the Internets holds that there is a certain percentage of material you can post that qualifies as fair use. That is bogus. Fair use is a judgment call based on a balance of four factors. From the linked Stanford Law site: "The only way to get a definitive answer on whether a particular use is a fair use is to have it resolved in federal court."

      The copyright holders probably would argue that the amount of quoted material is excessive (one of the 4 factors) and that simply posting the items for discussion does not have adequate "transformative value" (another factor). Furthermore, they would probably argue that copying those test items will have a significant detrimental effect on the market for their product (yet another of the factors). On this point, they may well have the American Psychological Association backing them up. The official position of the APA is that psychological tests require careful protection because disclosing their content can invalidate the tests. If this went to court, judge would probably be strongly influenced by a friend-of-the-court brief from the world's largest professional society of psychologists.

      Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer either.

    4. Re:Advice by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fair use is an affirmative defense, you can't just claim it as a right but have to prove your use was "fair" in court.

      Mod parent up -- this quote is key. Popular folklore on the Internets holds that there is a certain percentage of material you can post that qualifies as fair use. That is bogus.

      It's much worse than that - popular folklore on the Internet holds that "fair use" is a magic wand. All you have to do is invoke it (believe strongly enough that you are right) and you are magically protected.

  3. WANAL by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hi, I'm not a lawyer nor are many people you're likely to see posting here.

    But that percentage sounds like it may just cross the line for fair use, or perhaps even editorial comment. If you are going to go against the wishes of a larger entity, be sure of the percentage that might cross a line and trim to that. It may not be necessary to remove if you can editorialize.

    Otherwise, I hope you run the website through an LLC.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:WANAL by palegray.net · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Limited liability or not, why not just submit the content to Wikileaks? Good luck to any lawyer trying to send them a take-down notice...

  4. Well.. It may not by Pahalial · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a particular case, given that it is dealing with a psychological test. In many or most cases these rely on the test-taker not knowing the exact questions ahead of time. As you're dealing with over 10% of the test here, it's not all that far-fetched to say that foreknowledge of these questions could skew the results in a statistically significant way. This would count as causing harm or devaluing the original work (by causing prospective clients [the government] to doubt its results), which are direct reasons for fair use not to apply. Of course, IANAL and you should seek one, etc, but it seems to me that this is not that unreasonable a claim. A single question? Sure. 75 of them? Probably not so much.

    --
    Stuff.
    1. Re:Well.. It may not by tomhudson · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Just as a note, if you are ever incarcerated do not decide to fuck with the test for lulz. It ends badly every time.

      Just as a note, if you are ever incarcerated do not take the test.

      There, fixed it for you.

  5. Don't be an idiot by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 4, Informative

    Ask a lawyer, not Slashdot.

    --
    Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
    1. Re:Don't be an idiot by ljw1004 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A lawyer won't be any use.

      The lawyer will tell you: "I recommend you take this down to avoid any chance of prosecution."

      If you ask the lawyer "well, do I have any fair-use grounds for keeping it up?" the lawyer will still give you the same answer "I recommend you take it down to avoid any chance of prosecution."

      If you ask the lawyer "if it goes to court what are my chances of winning?" the lawyer will still give you the same answer "We won't know until it goes to court; I recommend you take it down to avoid any chance of prosecution."

      The lawyer's job is NOT to evaluate your best course of action that balances your wishes to keep the material with your wishes not to be sued. The lawyer will only do two things: (1) advise you to minimize your risks; (2) represent you if you keep the material up.

      After consulting the lawyer on this question, you'll be none the wiser but you'll be poorer.

    2. Re:Don't be an idiot by Fluffeh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The lawyer's job is NOT to evaluate your best course of action that balances your wishes to keep the material with your wishes not to be sued. The lawyer will only do two things: (1) advise you to minimize your risks; (2) represent you if you keep the material up.

      Well, yes, if you hire a cereal container for a lawyer, this will certainly be the case.

      If you however hire a lawyer and ask for advice on why this request for taking it down is not valid, you might get a list of responses that accurately answers the question. Or then again, you might get what you just wrote. When speaking to a lawyer, make sure they know your mindframe in this. Do you want to keep it up? Do you want to fight to keep it up? What is your motivation for keeping it up as opposed to just taking it down?

      Should it get to court, chances are that you will want these sort of arguments presented just as much as the legal side of the fence.

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    3. Re:Don't be an idiot by TekPolitik · · Score: 4, Informative

      The lawyer's job is NOT to evaluate your best course of action that balances your wishes to keep the material with your wishes not to be sued. The lawyer will only do two things: (1) advise you to minimize your risks; (2) represent you if you keep the material up.

      IAAL, and this is not correct at all.

      Lawyers usually advise in terms of probabilities as a CYA technique. Strangely enough, people who consult lawyers are more likely to sue than people who don't, so lawyers spend a lot of time putting in these CYA qualifiers. The following Lawyerese to English translations may help:

      May: Yes
      Might: Probably
      Unclear: Your guess is as good as mine
      Unlikely: No
      Very unlikely: Hell no

      Topical example - lawyer advising a paying client: In the situation described in TFA, given the amount of material taken, which appears to be much more than would be necessary for any "fair use", it is very unlikely that a defence of fair use would be successful in court.

      Topical example - lawyer making a comment informally without any liability: If you think the situation in TFA amounts to fair use you're out of your ****ing mind!

      In places with a divided profession (solicitors and barristers rather than attorneys) you can get the second sort of advice on a paid basis from a barrister (or your solicitor can get it for you), although it will cost a lot more and will still have qualifiers in it indicating where the risks are.

      Even where a client insists on doing something risky, a lawyer will be prepared to give advice on steps the client can take to minimise the risk. If a lawyer refuses to do that, you should find another one.

  6. Ask a bunch of random people on the internet? by Hal+The+Computer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why do all of the Ask Slashdot questions boil down to: "I want free legal advice. Give me an opinion on x."

    My thought is that you should really ask a lawyer what to do. Sheesh, do you really want free legal advice from random people with lots of free time on their hands?

    --

    int main(void){int x=01232;while(malloc(x));return x;}
    1. Re:Ask a bunch of random people on the internet? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Probably because in every other aspect except for Law and Medicine what we scrounge up is good enough.

      I Am Not A Mechanic but I might be able to fix your engine.
      "I Am Not A __Insert Profession ____ but I do have experience with XYZ." Is a pretty reasonable statement. We ask the group how well various systems work all the time and consult friends who aren't experts at length on a variety of topics. In fact many times the group advice and wisdom is pretty sound.

      The problem is the law is something we all are subject to and it's incredibly specific and incredibly tightly nuanced. As much so as advanced engineering. Most of us never need an accurate weight load stress analysis from an engineer but legal advice is necessary to remain free and properous.

      Even lawyers often can't tell you what the law says. If they could we wouldn't need them to defend us in spite of whatever it is the law is supposed to say

    2. Re:Ask a bunch of random people on the internet? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is an excellent point.

      A Good Rule of Thumb with any legal topic is. "The only sure case is a case which has gone before the supreme court already. And even then your victory is only temporary."

      Laws have to be vague otherwise they would be useless. A case quoting how many psychology questions you can post on your blog only being relevant to other cases where people quote psychology test questions on a blog would build an impossibly thick rule book and be impossible to manage. Within reason every legal case is a negotiation between two differing interpretations of justice. Neither side in any case is going to have the "right answer". The quality of your lawyer is how well your position can be argued. It's not an empirical system. Which is why it's even more important to have a good lawyer than a good doctor. A machine can empirically determine what's wrong with you based on symptoms and tests. It would take a far more sophisticated piece of software to determine whether or not an action is legal. Such a system would be comparable or superior to the human mind. The role of a lawyer is to deconstruction a scenario into a set of existential properties and then compare them to previous scenarios that were similar. That's an extremely high level of heuristics and understanding. It's also not something anybody human, machine or God can say with certainty is or is not going to win in a court of law.

  7. Re:Well, It Seems You Have Already Taken It Down by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Informative

    That's a lovely sentiment, but sometimes simply saying "Fuck off" won't do it. Remember, a company either has a legal team or lawyers on retainer, and for them the expense of taking this some distance is minimal as compared to the poor SOB whose getting the take-down notice. It's going to cost money, at least a grand or two, to even get a letter, but a letter from another attorney laying out his fair-use rights and the risks of abusing the take-down notice clause is probably all it will take.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  8. chillingeffects.org by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Go immediately to http://www.chillingeffects.org/

  9. Get a lawyer by Selanit · · Score: 4, Informative

    You've already received a formal takedown notice from a genuine lawyer; you need to consult a lawyer of your own. ASAP. The Slashdot community's thoughts may well be interesting/insightful/flamebait/overrated, but they're no substitute for trained legal counsel.

    Look up your local bar and see if you can find an IP lawyer with reasonable rates for a consultation. Failing that, contact the Electronic Frontier Foundation; perhaps they can help, or at least point you in the right direction.

    1. Re:Get a lawyer by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you found a lawyer in a local bar, chances are pretty good that he wouldn't be a great lawyer. And he might have a drinking problem, too.

      --
      Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  10. Just throw it away by Gothmolly · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Was it certified? Can they prove they sent it?

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  11. What's the question again? by mcrbids · · Score: 4, Informative

    Your choice is pretty simple:

    1) Take it down, or

    2) Deal with their lawyers.

    Since you are asking Slashdot, you don't have a lawyer, or you wouldn't need the reams of idiocy you'll find as a response**. They didn't mention the DMCA, which would at least allow you to defer the problem to the original poster. (who could ask to have it put back up after you notify them)

    You got nothing. So, take it down, and resist the urge to post it to wikileaks while enjoying a $0.75 cup of coffee at a local coffee shop with Wifi because that might be considered (ahem) copyright infringement... how long you resist that urge is up to you.

    Some fights are worth fighting. It's rarely worth fighting a fight you have no resources to win. Pearson is a big, big, big uber-ultra teh evil mega-corporation, but this is unlikely to be controversial enough to benefit from the Streissand Effect.

    You have much better things to worry about.

    ** Feel free to consider this post idiotic

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    1. Re:What's the question again? by palegray.net · · Score: 4, Informative

      Submitting a DMCA counter notice is a good first step, provided of course you'll willing to fight the good fight if they continue to protest.

      Funny thing is, a lot of organizations actually back down upon receiving an intelligently written counter notice. Apparently, even attorneys hesitate to deal with folks who might actually make them look silly.

    2. Re:What's the question again? by Fluffeh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Note that in your list 2 and 3 require money/resources and your 4th option isn't really an option, it's more a disclaimer saying you haven't thought of everything.

      You could aggregate your options to this:
      1) Take it down.
      2) Spend money to maybe not take it down

      The poster just has to work out which of the choices he wants to play with.

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
  12. 75 of 567 is *NOT* "limited amount" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sorry, but 13% of the content is not "limited". If I reprint 85 pages of "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince", would you consider that a "limited amount"? I don't think the publisher would... Not to mention you say "the first 75"... If it had been a 'random' 75, with commentary and discussion for each one; that would be one thing. Even then, it would be dubious. Even if I split it into one-paragraph sections, with commentary and discussion between each paragraph, 85 pages worth of Harry Potter would be difficult to claim under fair use.

    For example, the usage of 400 words out of a 500 page book was considered infringement: Harper Row vs. Nation Enterprises.

    Now, according to the wonderful DMCA, if you take the material down now, *YOU* are safe from prosecution. If you present the user of your board the opportunity to protest, then if they want to put it back up, *THEY* become the responsible party.

  13. Don't listen to the 10% comments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The reason you need a lawyer is there is no bright line test for fair use, and you're getting a lot of bad advice from the people who start with IANAL. Fair use is decided on four main factors, and the law is all over the place (and judge dependent).

    "there are no absolute rules as to how much of a copyrighted work may be copied and still be considered fair use" (Maxtone-Graham v. Burtchaell, 803 F.2d at 1263).

    Check out Stanford's fair use examples page to get an idea of what you're looking at:

    http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-c.html

    The Betamax case (Sony v. Universal) allowed copying of the entire copyrighted work under fair use, while Harper & Row denied fair use for using 300 words of Gerald Ford's 200,000 word manuscript.

    You need to talk to a lawyer, not the crowd on /. Don't listen to anyone who says 300 words are ok, non-commercial use is ok, etc. Those are all factors, but not definitive.

  14. Update on Situation by George+Maschke · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Since I posted this to Slashdot a few days ago, my webhosting provider (CanadianWebhosting.com) received a communication from its bandwidth provider (Peer1.com) that unless the post that was the subject of the DMCA takedown notice was removed, the entire server (which hosts other Canadian Webhosting customers, too) would be taken offline. So I reluctantly agreed to temporarily remove the post in question and have replaced it with a brief notice explaining the situation.

    Peer1.com seems to be under the impression that once a DMCA takedown notice is received, the material mentioned in the notice must be removed for a period of 14 days, after which, if the complainant does not provide notification that it has sought a court order, the material may be restored. However, my understanding is that the material may be placed back on-line (PDF) promptly upon the service provider's receipt of a counter-claim (which I have already sent), that is, there is no need to wait 14 days.

    It's also worth noting that Pearson, the copyright holder of the MMPI-2, filed a takedown notice for the very same post in 2007. We promptly filed a counter-notice, Pearson took no further action, and we thought the matter resolved. Has anyone had a problem with a copyright holder filing repeated DMCA takedown notices to one's service provider for the same material?

    --

    George W. Maschke
    AntiPolygraph.org

    1. Re:Update on Situation by Kjella · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Peer1.com seems to be under the impression that once a DMCA takedown notice is received, the material mentioned in the notice must be removed for a period of 14 days, after which, if the complainant does not provide notification that it has sought a court order, the material may be restored. However, my understanding is that the material may be placed back on-line (PDF) promptly upon the service provider's receipt of a counter-claim (which I have already sent), that is, there is no need to wait 14 days.

      Which clearly shows you are not competent in these matters. From USC 512(g)(2) found here:

      (C) replaces the removed material and ceases disabling access to it not less than 10, nor more than 14, business days following receipt of the counter notice, unless its designated agent first receives notice from the person who submitted the notification under subsection (c)(1)(C) that such person has filed an action seeking a court order to restrain the subscriber from engaging in infringing activity relating to the material on the service providers system or network.

      The ISP is required by law to follow this procedure to avoid liability. I wonder if your knowledge of "fair use" is much better.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:Update on Situation by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, my guess is they will continue to send notices periodically (as whatever sweep they do happens across it again). As to if they go farther, who knows? I'd suspect not, but then they may get fed up with you, or there may be new management or what not.

      If you leave the material up, it could go one of two ways:

      1) They never go further than take down notices, since real trials are expensive and they could lose. In this case, all you need to do is make your provider happy with whatever counter notice you need to send. You might have to switch providers, they might get sick of it and say "take it down or leave," but that's all.

      2) They get tired of it and sue you. In this case, you are going to have to go to court. Doesn't matter if you are in the right or not, the matter will have ot be settled in court and if you don't show, they'll win a default judgment against you. So you'll have to go fight it out. I can't say if you'll win or lose, I can't offer you legal advice for this.

      Now the important thing to remember is that even if get a lawyer and they say "You are 100% in the right," you could end up going to court and spending a good deal of time and money on a court case. So you have to ask yourself if you are willing to do that. If you are, well then the next step is to get a lawyer and ask them about the legality. If they say "Nope, you are screwed," then you'd better take it down. If they give you the all clear, then do as you like.

      If you aren't willing to deal with a court case, then you have to ask yourself how much risk you want to take, or perhaps more accurately, how serious you think they are. If you think they are just blowing smoke, and many companies do, then you can continue on. After all they may well never do anything but send takedown e-mails/letters. Those are cheap and easy, a lawsuit isn't. However remember they have that option, so maybe they take it.

      You just have to decide for yourself if this is something you'd be willing to go through. If it is, then seek legal council and see if they think you'd prevail. If you aren't willing to, well then maybe you have to do as they say. Even if you are in the right, you can still be sued.

      So the quesiton right now isn't about the law, it is about you. Answer that, then you know if it is worth looking in to the law further.

  15. "Fair Use" by bobasp111 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Please forgive the vague nature of this post. I once heard an interview with a woman who worked for the copyright office (I think) in some legal capacity. Really, I don't remember exactly who she was, who she worked for, or what she did. It was a while ago, and audio not print. Suffice to say, she had some legal expertise in these matter.

    The thing I do remember, very clearly, is her comments on "fair use." She said that "fair use" is hardly ever what we think it is. It is not what is fair. It is not what we want it to be. It is only what the courts have specifically defined it to be. In most cases, things we think are fair use have never been tested by the courts. How the courts would decide if they did hear the case, I would not try to predict.

    Unless you can find a legal precedent where the issue you are dealing with has been clearly tested and declared by a court of law to be fair use, do not assume it is. If there are no precedents showing that what you are doing is a violation of copyright, then the other lawyers can also not assume they will prevail.

    If you want to be the one to test this in court, more power to you.

  16. MMPI - VOODOO AND COPYRIGHT by jamej · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't think you can copyright voodoo (MMPI2).

  17. What, These Questions? by Quothz · · Score: 5, Informative
    MMPI 2 TEST QUESTIONS IN ORDER

    TRUE OR FALSE (567 QUESTIONS)

    1.I like mechanics magazines

    2.I have a good appetite

    3.I wake up fresh & rested most mornings

    4.I think I would like the work of a librarian

    5.I am easily awakened by noise

    6.I like to read newspaper articles on crime

    7.My hands and feet are usually warm enough

    8.My daily life is full of things that keep me interested

    9.I am about as able to work as I ever was

    10.There seems to be a lump in my throat much of the time

    11.A person should try to understand his dreams and be guided by or take warning from them

    12.I enjoy detective or mystery stories

    13.I work under a great deal of tension

    14.I have diarrhea once a month or more

    15.Once in a while I think of things too bad to talk about

    16.I am sure I get a raw deal from life

    17.My father was a good man

    18.I am very seldom troubled by constipation

    19.When I take a new, I like to be tipped off on whom should be gotten next to

    20.My sex life is satisfactory

    21.At times I have very much wanted to leave home

    22.At times I have fits of laughing & crying that I cannot control

    23.I am troubled by attacks of nausea and vomiting

    24.No one seems to understand me

    25.I would like to be a singer

    26.I feel that it is certainly best to keep my mouth shut when Iâ(TM)m in trouble

    27.Evil spirits possess me at times

    28.When someone does me a wrong I feel I should pay him back if I can, just for the principle of the thing.

    29.I am bothered by acid stomach several times a week

    30.At times I feel like swearing

    31.I have nightmares every few nights

    32.I find it hard to keep my mind on a task or job

    33.I have had very peculiar and strange experiences

    34.I have a cough most of the time

    35.If people had not had it in for me I would have been much more successful

    36.I seldom worry about my heath

    37.I have never been in trouble because of my sex behavior

    38.During one period when I was a youngster I engaged in petty thievery

    39.At times I feel like smashing things

    40.Most any time I would rather sit and daydream than to do anything else

    41.I have had periods of days, weeks, or months when I couldnâ(TM)t take care of things because I couldnâ(TM)t âoeget goingâ

    42.My family does not like the work I have chosen ( or the work I intend to choose for my life work)

    43.My sleep is fitful and disturbed

    44.Much of the time my head seems to hurt all over

    45.I do not always tell the truth

    46.My judgment is better than it ever was

    47.Once a week or oftener I feel suddenly hot all over without apparent cause

    48.When I am with people I am bothered by hearing very queer things

    49.It would be better if almost all laws were thrown away

    50.My soul sometimes leaves my body

    51.I am in just as good physical health as most of my friends

    52.I prefer to pass by school friends, or people I know but have not seen for a long time, unless they speak to me first

    53.A minister can cure disease by praying and putting his hand on your head

    54.I am liked by most people who know me

    55.I am almost never bothered by pains over the heart or in my chest

    56.As a youngster I was suspended from school one or more times for cutting up

    57.I am a good mixer

    58.Everything is turning out just like the prophets of the Bible said it would

    59.I have often had to take orders from someone who did not know as much as I did

    60.I do not read every editorial in the newspaper everyday

    61.I have not lived the right kind of life

    62.Parts of my body often have feeling like burning, tingling, crawling, or like âoegoing to sleepâ

    63.I have had no difficulty in starting or holding my bowel movement

    64.I sometimes keep

    1. Re:What, These Questions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not quite, it's these questions: 1. I like mechanics magazines. 2. I have a good appetite. 3. I wake up fresh and rested most mornings. 4. I think I would enjoy the work of a librarian. 5. I am easily awakened by noise. 6. My father is a good man (or if your father is dead) my father was a good man. 7. I like to read newspaper articles on crime. 8. My hands and feet are usually warm enough. 9. My daily life is full of things that keep me interested. 10. I am about as able to work as I ever was. 11. There seems to be a lump in my throat much of the time. 12. My sex life is satisfactory. 13. People should try to understand their dreams and be guided by or take warning from them. 14. I enjoy detective or mystery stories. 15. I work under a great deal of tension. 16. Once in a while I think of things too bad to talk about. 17. I am sure I get a raw deal from life. 18. I am troubled by attacks of nausea and vomiting. 19. When I take a new job, I like to find out whom it is important to be nice to. 20. I am very seldom bothered by constipation. 21. At times I have very much wanted to leave home. 22. No one seems to understand me. 23. At times I have fits of laughing and crying that I cannot control. 24. Evil spirits possess me at times. 25. I would like to be a singer. 26. I feel that it is certainly best to keep my mouth shut when I am in trouble. 27. When people do me wrong, I feel I should pay them back, just for the principle of the thing. 28. I am bothered by an upset stomach several times a week. 29. At times I feel like swearing. 30. I have nightmares every few nights. 31. I find it hard to keep my mind on a task or job. 32. I have had very peculiar and strange experiences. 33. I seldom worry about my health. 34. I have never been in trouble because of my sexual behavior. 35. Sometimes when I was young I stole things. 36. I have a cough most of the time. 37. At times I feel like smashing things. 38. I have had periods of days, weeks, or months when I couldnâ(TM)t take care of things because I couldnâ(TM)t âoeget goingâ. 39. My sleep is fitful and disturbed. 40. Much of the time, my head seems to hurt all over. 41. I do not always tell the truth. 42. If people had not had it in for me, I would have been much more successful. 43. My judgment is better than it ever was. 44. Once a week (or more often) I suddenly feel hot all over, for no reason. 45. I am in just as good physical health as most of my friends. 46. I prefer to pass by school friends, or people I know but have not seen for a long time, unless they speak to me first. 47. I am almost never bothered by pains over my heart or in my chest. 48. Most anytime I would rather sit and daydream than do anything else. 49. I am a very sociable person. 50. I have often had to take orders from someone who did not know as much as I did. 51. I do not read every editorial in the newspaper every day. 52. I have not lived the right kind of life. 53. Parts of my body often have feelings like burning, tingling, crawling, or like âoegoing to sleepâ. 54. My family does not like the work I have chosen (or the work I intend to choose for my lifework). 55. I sometimes keep on at a thing until others lose their patience with me. 56. I wish I could be as happy as others seem to be. 57. I hardly ever feel pain in the back of my neck. 58. I think a great many people exaggerate their misfortunes in order to gain the sympathy and help of others. 59. I am troubled by discomfort in the pit of my stomach every few days or so. 60. When I am with people I am bothered by hearing very strange things. 61. I am an important person. 62. I have often wished I were a girl. (or if you are a girl) I have never been sorry that I am a girl. 63. My feelings are not easily hurt. 64. I enjoy reading love stories. 65. Most of the time I feel blue. 66. It would be better if almost all laws were thrown away. 67. I like poetry. 68. I sometimes tease animals. 69. I think I would like the kind of work a forest ranger does. 70. I am easily downed in an argument. 71. These days I find it h

    2. Re:What, These Questions? by debile · · Score: 2, Funny

      Damn, I wish I had points left Mod parent +1 he got balls!

    3. Re:What, These Questions? by tftp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Elsewhere in the test there usually are complementary questions, or the same questions will be rephrased. If you do not answer them consistently the trust in your answers will be lower. If you want to fake such a test you need to have a good mental image of the person that you are representing. This test, as it seems, is for a low-IQ applicant for a menial job; the applicant is given 500+ questions and likely barely enough time (10 seconds per question?) to mark the paper up. In such conditions you have to either (a) answer the truth, or (b) lie randomly. The (b) will be detected (or estimated) by the questions which are there only for that purpose. This is why keeping the questions secret is so important - an applicant can prepare correct answers on most questions, given time, and memorize the profile that he wants to show.

    4. Re:What, These Questions? by Neptunes_Trident · · Score: 2, Insightful

      THIS is the most sane person here IMO. I am sure "those" who post entire copy written tests are subject to psychological evaluation too, no?.... pffft. All I can say is WAY TO GO MAN! Employers, PhD's and Law enforcement are not the only ones who can make an evaluation call on who is "psychologically sane", and screw your damn DMCA Bullshit, people have a right to know how "fair or unfairly" they are being judged. So stick that in your "psychological lab rat copy written money manipulation machine" and choke on it, Jerks!

    5. Re:What, These Questions? by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 2
      A couple of years back, they managed to get a Slashdot comment censored that quoted OT VIII verbatim.

      No other organization has so more managed to make Slashdot cave.

      And even Scientology regretted it, because in the wake of that censorship, OT VIII was reposted so frequently that their lawyers wore out their pens attempting to catch up with take-down notices.

  18. text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    MMPI 2 TEST QUESTIONS IN ORDER
    TRUE OR FALSE (567 QUESTIONS)

    1.I like mechanics magazines
    2.I have a good appetite
    3.I wake up fresh & rested most mornings
    4.I think I would like the work of a librarian
    5.I am easily awakened by noise
    6.I like to read newspaper articles on crime
    7.My hands and feet are usually warm enough
    8.My daily life is full of things that keep me interested
    9.I am about as able to work as I ever was
    10.There seems to be a lump in my throat much of the time
    11.A person should try to understand his dreams and be guided by or take warning from them
    12.I enjoy detective or mystery stories
    13.I work under a great deal of tension
    14.I have diarrhea once a month or more
    15.Once in a while I think of things too bad to talk about
    16.I am sure I get a raw deal from life
    17.My father was a good man
    18.I am very seldom troubled by constipation
    19.When I take a new, I like to be tipped off on whom should be gotten next to
    20.My sex life is satisfactory
    21.At times I have very much wanted to leave home
    22.At times I have fits of laughing & crying that I cannot control
    23.I am troubled by attacks of nausea and vomiting
    24.No one seems to understand me
    25.I would like to be a singer
    26.I feel that it is certainly best to keep my mouth shut when Iâ(TM)m in trouble
    27.Evil spirits possess me at times
    28.When someone does me a wrong I feel I should pay him back if I can, just for the principle of the thing.
    29.I am bothered by acid stomach several times a week
    30.At times I feel like swearing
    31.I have nightmares every few nights
    32.I find it hard to keep my mind on a task or job
    33.I have had very peculiar and strange experiences
    34.I have a cough most of the time
    35.If people had not had it in for me I would have been much more successful
    36.I seldom worry about my heath
    37.I have never been in trouble because of my sex behavior
    38.During one period when I was a youngster I engaged in petty thievery
    39.At times I feel like smashing things
    40.Most any time I would rather sit and daydream than to do anything else
    41.I have had periods of days, weeks, or months when I couldnâ(TM)t take care of things because I couldnâ(TM)t âoeget goingâ
    42.My family does not like the work I have chosen ( or the work I intend to choose for my life work)
    43.My sleep is fitful and disturbed
    44.Much of the time my head seems to hurt all over
    45.I do not always tell the truth
    46.My judgment is better than it ever was
    47.Once a week or oftener I feel suddenly hot all over without apparent cause
    48.When I am with people I am bothered by hearing very queer things
    49.It would be better if almost all laws were thrown away
    50.My soul sometimes leaves my body
    51.I am in just as good physical health as most of my friends
    52.I prefer to pass by school friends, or people I know but have not seen for a long time, unless they speak to me first
    53.A minister can cure disease by praying and putting his hand on your head
    54.I am liked by most people who know me
    55.I am almost never bothered by pains over the heart or in my chest
    56.As a youngster I was suspended from school one or more times for cutting up
    57.I am a good mixer
    58.Everything is turning out just like the prophets of the Bible said it would
    59.I have often had to take orders from someone who did not know as much as I did
    60.I do not read every editorial in the newspaper everyday
    61.I have not lived the right kind of life
    62.Parts of my body often have feeling like burning, tingling, crawling, or like âoegoing to sleepâ
    63.I have had no difficulty in starting or holding my bowel movement
    64.I sometimes keep on at a thing until others lose their patience with me
    65.I loved my father
    66.I see things or animals or people around me that others do not see
    67.I wish I could be as happy as others seem to be
    68.I hardly ever feel pain in the back of

    1. Re:text by unlametheweak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The sad thing is that people who lie on the test (and are consistent about it) are the ones that are going to get hired.

      Take for example, "It would be better if almost all laws were thrown away".
      Now considering that this test is for the police force, it's obvious that the Human Resource types aren't interested in hiring a civil Libertarian, however purely philosophical he is in his beliefs.

      I do not always tell the truth

      If you answer "False" to this (like I would), then you would also be weeded out as a liar. Because well, most people lie most of the time, and according to the HR types, if you don't admit to lying then you are just a dishonest liar.

      I have often had to take orders from someone who did not know as much as I did

      This question is pretty much biased against geeks, or anybody who loves knowledge and education. The police (and companys in general) want people who can take orders without question.

      TAKE NOTE: I have no inside knowledge, but I'm just making some educated guessing, and adding a bit of deduction to what I already know. Just my two cents as they say. In general with these types of tests it seems like they are looking for somebody average and socially adjusted (witch often isn't usually a good thing when average isn't a good thing. But I shall not bring authoritarian societies into the equation).

    2. Re:text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Please note: A civil libertarian != a Libertarian. A civil libertarian is not likely to say "It would be better if almost all laws were thrown away," rather they would want more laws, you know Freedom of Information laws, laws restricting police powers, law restricting administrative powers, that sort of thing.

    3. Re:text by LaskoVortex · · Score: 5, Funny

      Screw the questions, man. Post the friggin' answers!

      --
      Just callin' it like I see it.
    4. Re:text by Greyfox · · Score: 4, Funny
      I always lie, therefore I would have to answer "false" to "I do not always tell the truth."

      Why do I get the feeling that other than that one question their test would show me to be a model employee?

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    5. Re:text by tecnico.hitos · · Score: 4, Funny

      I always lie, therefore I would have to answer "false" to "I do not always tell the truth."

      Why do I get the feeling that other than that one question their test would show me to be a model employee?

      Wait. You say you always lie, but if this is truth you are lying and you always say the truth. But if you always say the truth you wouldn't say you lie and you would still answer false. But then they would assume you to be lying, like you said you always do. But if... nevermind.

      Sigh... I want a cake...

      --
      The good, the evil and the vacuum tubes.
    6. Re:text by interested+pyro · · Score: 4, Funny

      I want a cake

      but the cake is a lie.....

    7. Re:text by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Personally, I find these tests very informative. The test tells you a lot about your future employer. If I was given a test like that, the pay I would require would substantially increase :)

      Not sure what the employer gets out of them. A feeling of security, perhaps?

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    8. Re:text by horatio · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm just making some educated guessing

      Not so much. They rarely look at individual answers on (real, not one of the fake made-up HR) personality inventories like the MMPI, unless there is some specific reason to do so. The test is scored, and certain questions combine to form a score for a particular category - honesty, outlook (are you happy, morose, depressed?), self-control, etc. They're also looking at your beliefs about things like how much you control the outcome of a situation - is it all deterministic (your actions are 100% responsible) or luck (you can't change the outcome of anything). The same question can and is asked in different ways - this is where they try to get at honesty, or if you're paying attention to what you're doing. Non-sensical scores might cause the evaulator to look at individual questions to see if something is wrong (ie did you mark A,B,C,D,E in that order all the way down the test)

      While this type of battery could be performed by HR I suppose, being that it is a psychological test, it is generally administered and evaluated by a trained professional, or agency. Because of this, it is also generally covered by human subjects rules.

      Answering the "wrong way" to one or two questions (out of over 500) isn't going to flag you as a crazy anarchist. Now, if the HR dept sees the Ron Paul bumper sticker on your car...

      * I have a psychology degree, but it has been a while so I've forgotten a few things.

      --
      There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
    9. Re:text by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Informative

      The sad thing is that people who lie on the test (and are consistent about it) are the ones that are going to get hired.

      MMPI-2 isn't something given by HR people, and the answers to the questions aren't analyzed one-by-one anyway. Furthermore, one of the axes it measures is truthfulness in answering the questions, and this in turn affects the scores on other axes.

      Basically, you're looking too closely at the individual questions. This is a psychiatric test for rough clinical diagnosis.

      You might be asked to take the MMPI-2 if you are going to work with classified information in the military, but the hiring manager at Spud Corp isn't likely to know enough about the DSM IV to even understand the results.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    10. Re:text by Thelasko · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The sad thing is that people who lie on the test (and are consistent about it) are the ones that are going to get hired.

      I posted a story about these types of tests in January. One comment stood out:

      These types of tests have been used ever since professional management was invented as a skill separate from actually being able to do anything economically useful.

      I suggest that anyone who has to work in an organization that uses these types of tests read "The Organization Man" by William H. Whyte. Some key chapters are online here: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/whyte-main.html [upenn.edu] However, what is not online is the Appendix, titled "How To Cheat on Personality Tests". The book was published in 1956.

      Whyte doesn't suggest that you cheat on personality tests just because you are greedy, or because corporations are evil and you have to survive, or anything radical like that. It is clear from the book that Whyte is the kind of guy who presumes that most people are well-intentioned, that managers probably want to hire the best, and they need these scores to cover their ass, so people should give the correct answers on tests so managers can then pick the good guys and promote them.

      Meyer-Briggs and Minnesota Multi-Phasic whatchamacallits have never been shown to be of any practical use, and their pointlessness has been known for decades.

      "The Organization Man" is one of the funniest books I have ever read, but I think it is only funny if you have been exposed to Organization Men enough to recogize the traits he points out, and it is a kind of dry, no-punch line humour that I associate with old men who are constantly laughing at you inside. For the enjoyment of Slashdot I will reproduce here a couple of paragraphs from the "How to Cheat on Personality Tests" chapter:

      "The important thing to realize is that you don't win a good score: you avoid a bad one. (...) Sometimes it is perfectly all right for you to score in the 80th or 90th percentile; if you are being tested, for example, to see if you would make a good chemist, a score indicating that you are likely to be more reflective than ninety out of a hundred adults might not harm you and might even do you some good."

      "By and large, however, your safety lies in getting a score somewhere between the 40th and 60th percentiles, which is to say, you should try to answer as if you were like everyone else is supposed to be. This is not always too easy to figure out, of course, and this is one of the reasons why I will go into some detail in the following paragraphs on the principal types of questions. When in doubt, however, there are two general rules you can follow: (1) When asked for word associations or comments about the world, give the most convential, run-of-the-mill, pedestrian answer possible. (2) To settle the most beneficial answer to any question, repeat to yourself:

      a) I loved my father and my mother, but my father a little bit more
      b) I like things pretty well the way they are
      c) I never worry much about anything
      d) I don't care for books or music much
      e) I love my wife and children
      f) I don't let them get in the way of company work"

      You know what is the saddest about these personality tests ? This guide to cheating on them was written just a few years after the basic ones became popular (they were developed in the 20's and 30's, came into use and were standardized (and also statistically tested and proven worthless) in the bureaucracy of WWII, and The Organization Man was published in '56), but the cheat guide works perfectly well even for tests developed long after the cheat guide was written.

      You can take a computer administered test developed in the last few years by the best minds in modern management theory, and cheat it with a guide written over 50 years ago.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    11. Re:text by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is/was false. Years ago, two minimum wage jobs I had both gave me MMPI tests before hiring. Neither was dealing with national secrets, but one did require high levels of trust in me (in my position, shoplifting would have been easy). Not having done minimum wage since then, I don't know if they still use it.

    12. Re:text by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have taken personality tests for several jobs that I applied for. I was not offered an interview at any of these jobs. I do not know if the test had anything to do with it. However, at one of them a friend of mine was offered a job. I know that he has no qualms about stealing from his employer. He has always had a justification for stealing from every employer that he worked for, but he passed the tests.
      Additionally, I was a store manager for a company that decided to introduce personality tests into the hiring process. My boss as part of the roll out, had the existing employees take the test to give HR a baseline. All of the store managers but one failed. The one who passed was one they were trying to get rid of for poor performance. They did away with the tests shortly after they fired her for stealing from the company.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    13. Re:text by profplump · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You've setup your system backwards. If you start with the right single law -- the state has no powers except those explicitly granted to it -- then removing laws would necessarily do things like restricting police power and granting access to information because the police would only have been granted powers through laws, and the state would only have been granted the right to keep secrets through laws.

      I'm sure the state would love this idea of a system where they implicitly have power and we must explicitly take it away with new laws, but it doesn't sound much like civil libertarianism or Libertarianism to me.

  19. Take it down. by seeker_1us · · Score: 2, Insightful
    As much as I am NOT a fan of the DMCA: This is 13% of their test. It's 1/8. For a test, I wouldn't consider it a small sample.

    If you want to fight it, you and your layers need to come up with a good reason that you need to redistribute so large a percentage of a a test as "fair use."

  20. Google cache still has it by noidentity · · Score: 2, Informative
  21. You're going to get sued soon if you don't. by ring-eldest · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Test makers are notoriously vicious in the defense of their property. Psychological tests especially, since it cost them a lot of money to create those items and test their reliability and validity, and they will have to replace those items if they are disclosed to enough people.

    Granted, projective tests like the MMPI are generally garbage that don't tell you anything you can't figure out yourself with a little introspection, but publicly airing their items directly costs them money. Anyone that was awake in psych 101 knows how "useful" a person's MMPI personality type is, but that doesn't stop it from being one of the most popular go-to personality assessments.

    Pearson in particular is a very large test maker with very hungry lawyers. They WILL sue you for this. They'll sue you for selling any of their products on ebay, too... even if it's just a xeroxed BLANK assessment protocol (the paper that the taker writes answers on). They'll sue you for talking about their items in a way that reveals items. They'll sue you at the drop of a hat.

    Disclaimer: As a School Psychology student myself, most of our texts don't even use actual items from tests as examples. Tests themselves (and the protocols that go with them) are kept under lock and key, and cost a fortune.

  22. Re:Well, It Seems You Have Already Taken It Down by fractoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And this is precisely the problem with the DMCA. A large company who retain a team of lawyers on salary will have no problem firing off a few dozen such takedown notices. The cost of hiring a lawyer to screen them all for actual, valid complaints becomes rapidly prohibitive for the private citizen on the other end.

    This is why the DMCA needs strongly punitive measures for repeat posting of unwarranted takedown notices for economic purposes.

    --
    Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  23. http://mmpi.baywords.com/ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    check it out - here's a site with a (supposed) list of all the questions from both versions:

    http://mmpi.baywords.com/

  24. EXPLANATION: How the MMPI test works by Markmarkmark · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I noticed several posts pointing out some of the seemingly silly questions (ie "My hands and feet get cold"). They may in fact be silly but there is reasoning behind them. I went and actually did some reading up on how the test is supposed to work. There are 8 different major scales measured and several other more minor ones too. For example Scale 1 is essentially looking at Hypochondria, a person's tendency to be really focused on (and maybe whiny) about every little ache and pain. The test understands that everyone has some stuff wrong with them and certain physical peeves too, so you're supposed to mark some of the stuff "T". But if you look at the questions, there are a bunch about this physical stuff and they are all over the place. If you put a "T" by a whole lot of them, then the test scores you higher on this scale. If you put an "F" by all of them, the test basically scores your "truthfulness on test questions" lower because these are things that everyone should complain about a few of.

    The issue of test validity is a big deal and dealt with in different ways including checking for truthfulness by asking the same thing in a different way in different parts of the test. There are a bunch of these question pairs and there are some set up for consistent answers being "T/T", "T/F", and "F/F". There are also question sequences in the back half of the test designed to detect if the user is just starting to mostly randomly check or barely skim questions. Too high on this and the test is reflected as invalid.

    Gaming the test is not as easy as it might seem at first glance. Some questions can be taken at face value, like "I sometimes think about killing myself". If you check that one "T" along with some other similar questions then you may well be suicidal. However, there are other questions that state mildly negative personality traits that most people have. If you refuse to admit to any of them then the test scores you as either trying to present an unrealistically positive image or as having an unrealistic self-image/ego. Answering some of those type questions with a "T" will get the test to paint you as a self-confident personality with a healthy self-image that feels no need to hide common human foibles.

    Personally, I'm a skeptic of these kinds of tests. I think they may work to some degree in some scenarios with some people but there will be other scenarios or people for which the test will largely fail. This particular test is also susceptible to interpretation error. Some evaluators tend to focus in on individual scales but what I read says that that over-simple approach almost always yields skewed results. To get an accurate scoring the evaluator must consider the scales together. In large scale testing of different populations, the experts in this claim to have identified different groupings, for example two particular scales elevated while a third specific scale is lowered may represent a certain personality trait (ie rebelliousness or conformity). It's also said that the evaluator *must* have accurate background info on the subject (ie record of physical violence, manic behavior, etc). These factors can apparently change the assessment significantly.
         

  25. Is this test legal in the US...? by SomethingOrOther · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Such a test would be rather illegal in the UK, and probably much of the EU.

    20.My sex life is satisfactory
    69.I am very strongly attracted by members of my own sex
    Both questions could count as sexual harassment. (Aside from the fact, most sane people would tell the questioner to fuck off and mind there own business)

    14.I have diarrhea once a month or more
    Surely questions about your health that are not job releted are illegal?

    58.Everything is turning out just like the prophets of the Bible said it would
    LOL ! Don't get me started on the legality of this one!

    I'm honestly amazed these questions are considered acceptable.
    Here, they WOULD bring the law crashing down on you.

    --
    Anyone quoted by a reporter knows how little they understand
    Don't believe what you read is the truth.
    1. Re:Is this test legal in the US...? by __aashqr1992 · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, they wouldn't - many places have similar questionnaires, although they cannot *legally* force you to answer any questions on it, and in principal aren't allowed to discriminate and it's 'entirely voluntary'. That said, leave half the questions blank, and see how far you get. These aren't disreputable companies either; on the standard employment for for an Environment Agency job, I was asked about my sexual preferences and briefly about my medical history. And most employment forms have a 'religion' section, they just add a 'rather not say'.

    2. Re:Is this test legal in the US...? by TheJasper · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am fairly convinced many of these question would be illegal to even ask in an interview in the Netherlands. Saying that you can decline to answer is not a fair option because implicit is that you will be punished for not answering. I do not have to answer questions on my health, sexual preference or religion for any job unless relevant (epileptics probably shouldn't drive buses for example).

      Asking such questions is inherently biasing the application process. I'm sure you van get away with it in the states. In my country you would end up saying sorry to a judge. You may get a union or two pissed off. Better not do it.

      Of course the U.S. may consider sexual preference relevant for government fucntions. After all if you are of any sexuality other than straight or filthy rich then you are obviously hiding a secret so great that you are very blackmailable. Or you have no moral character.

    3. Re:Is this test legal in the US...? by Nipok+Nek · · Score: 5, Funny

      (epileptics probably shouldn't drive buses for example)

      Epileptics who are not controlled by medication, thank you very much. Some of us have been lucky enough to find the right drug, and have happy productive lives, and don't kill people very often at all.

      --
      Why choose white shoes?
    4. Re:Is this test legal in the US...? by FictionPimp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hmmm, if 1% of the Christians are annoying fucks who try to covert me, isn't it safe to say rather then being all atheists like you claim, it's probably just the same 1% minority that are annoying fucks?

      I've never once tried to convince someone there was no god unless they brought up religion.

    5. Re:Is this test legal in the US...? by inject_hotmail.com · · Score: 2, Funny

      (epileptics probably shouldn't drive buses for example)

      Epileptics who are not controlled by medication, thank you very much. Some of us have been lucky enough to find the right drug, and have happy productive lives, and don't kill people very often at all.

      Not very often? Just out of curiosity, how often would that be?

    6. Re:Is this test legal in the US...? by virg_mattes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Whenever you feel the need to say "The problem with Atheists..." you should stop there. Atheists, like any other group, are not a homogenous mass that all act and think exactly the same. Prejudice makes you look like an ass far more than militant atheists make atheists in general look bad.

      Virg

    7. Re:Is this test legal in the US...? by trewornan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm an atheist myself but I've got to disagree with this - there's nothing wrong with the phrase "The problem with atheists is ... "

      Repeat after me: "Generalization is flawed thinking only when applied to individuals".

      I can say "this batch of lightbulbs have shorter lifespans than that batch of lightbulbs" even if there are individual lightbulbs in the inferior batch which have longer lifespans than individual lightbulbs in the superior batch. It's not faulty thinking at all and the same logic applies to groups of people whether politically correct tossers like it or not.

      If someone was to say "The problem with atheists is they don't believe in god" then I might not agree it's a problem but there's no logical flaw in the statement.

    8. Re:Is this test legal in the US...? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      athiests?

      why is there a name for this?

      is there a name for people who don't believe in unicorns? is there a name for people who don't believe in flying pigs?

      quote from jon miller:

      Jonathan Miller: Let me say right at the outset that I've always been very reluctant to use the word "atheist," not because I'm embarrassed or ashamed of it but I think that this view scarcely deserves a title. No one has a special name for not believing in witches--I'm not an "a-hexist"--and I don't have a word for not believing in ghosts or anything of that sort. So the idea of there being a special name for what I've never had--which is a belief in God--seems to me to be odd, to say the least.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  26. Re:Well, It Seems You Have Already Taken It Down by __aashqr1992 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    it'd be interesting to see how many people have actually been prosecuted, however. I'm betting not many. Also, how does the law work when it's legally a corporate entity making the copyright claim? Anyone know?

  27. Re:Well, It Seems You Have Already Taken It Down by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Funny

    You should talk to the pope about that...

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  28. Observations. by OneSmartFellow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    1.) It's copyright by the University of Minnesota. Uptight Wankers !
    2.) If it's a pre-requisite for a federal job, it should be issued by the Fed, and therefore in the public domain.
    3.)You're foolish for not obeying the take-down notice.
    4.)You're even more foolish if you don't immediately publish the entire document on Wikileaks.

    Thanks for listening.

  29. IANAL also, but you have overlooked something. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

    " (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in
    relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
    (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value
    of the copyrighted work."


    Using 75 out of 567 is a substantial fraction of the whole. This might be more than you might casually get away with as an "excerpt".

    Further, the MMPI is a "Personality Inventory" test... it may well be that the (alleged) effectiveness of the test relies on the test-taker to not know the questions beforehand. The test maker may therefore have a legitimate beef in regard to item (4).

    Do not misunderstand me: according to my college psychology professor, tests such as MMPI and MMPI2 were thoroughly discredited many years ago. I question its worth from the beginning. But that does not mean that the copyright holder does not have a case.

  30. Re:Well, It Seems You Have Already Taken It Down by jackbird · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nope, the sworn statement under penalty of perjury is that the filer is an authorized agent of the entity filing the notice, not that said entity is the copyright holder or that the material is infringing. Important weasel words.

  31. Why are you asking Slashdot? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Your question is a purely legal question. You should be addressing it to your company's lawyer. And you need to provide that lawyer with all the materials.

    If 300 members of Slashdot tell you you're in the right, and they all get modded up to "+5", that doesn't mean you're in the clear.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  32. He published well under 10% by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He may have published 13% of the questions, but that's well under 10% of the total material related to the MMPI test - you need the scoring criteria as well. The questions, by themselves, are pretty much worthless, and you can be sure that the scoring criteria are longer than the test itself - otherwise, the test is even more bs than it seems.

    These are the tests they hand out en masse and if you don't score the "right thing" in the right areas they just don't call you back.

    So, since they already hand them out in such quantities (and they really do), there's no "trade secret". Anyone who has taken the test now has the "trade secret knowledge", and without a signed non-disclosure agreement to boot.

    Tempest, meet teapot.

    The questions themselves are a valid topic of discussion, especially when used in an employment context, where they are, in many areas, just plain illegal to ask.

  33. The ones they missed by Megane · · Score: 4, Interesting
    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  34. Sorry, but that isn't how this works by stonecypher · · Score: 2, Informative

    It seems to me that such posting of a limited amount copyrighted material for discussion purposes on a public-interest, non-profit Web site falls within the scope of the fair use exemption of US copyright law.

    Well, it doesn't.

    ""quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported." "

    None of that is what you're doing. Incidentally, the phrase you're really in trouble with is where the court is told explicitly to consider the substantiality of the quotation; you've quoted more than 1/8 of the entire work. Fair use lets you get away with quoting maybe five or six questions in a situation like this, not 75.

    Furthermore, you don't actually get to decline the request while you decide what to do. Declining a takedown is a final stance; if you say no, that's not "no while I figure it out", that's no period. You're supposed to be taking the content down until you're convinced it's legal (which it isn't).

    The only people here who will tell you that what you're doing is fair use are the people who have never read fair use doctrine. Fair use is for criticism and commentary, and is meant to cover the news and the newspapers talking about things. It is not a blanket to excuse you duplicating and disseminating whatever copywritten material you feel like, even if it's "only" nearly 15% of the complete work.

    You're way, way in the wrong here, and you need to call a lawyer and ask, before you get into serious trouble. Slashdot is not a lawyer.

    --
    StoneCypher is Full of BS
  35. USC Title 17 section 512 by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    USC Title 17 section 512 is the relevant part. My thoughts:

    1. Contact a competent attorney specializing in copyright and IP law. Trust only a lawyer working for you, never one working for the other guy. Then follow your lawyer's advice.
    2. 512(c)(3) sets forth the requirements for a valid DMCA takedown notice. One of those requirements, (vi), is for the person sending the notice to state under penalty of perjury that they're authorized by the copyright owner to send this notice. I see the letter they sent you never makes that statement. I'd respond to them noting this deficiency and that until it's corrected you can't take action without opening yourself to legal liability. I wouldn't be confrontational, simply request that they make that statement so that you can act without fear of being held liable yourself by the user and note that you'll be unable to comply with their request until it complies with the law itself. Being non-confrontational will help you if you do have to go before a judge, it'll show him that you're trying to comply with the requirements of the law and that it's NCS Pearson who're balking at doing the same. It'll also help take your own service provider out of the equation by giving them a good reason to refuse to take action. If it's not a valid DMCA takedown, they can't take action against you without leaving themselves possibly liable if the request turns out to be invalid, and gives them an excuse to say "Sorry, the law doesn't let us act until you've satisfied it's requirements.".
    3. Having done the above, if your attorney agrees that you've got a valid argument, give NCS Pearson the benefit of the doubt about the validity of their notice and file a proper counter-notice per 512(g). This also takes your service provider out of the equation. Once they've received your counter-notice they have to cease interfering with access until NCS Pearson notifies them that they've actually filed a legal action against you or risk legal liability themselves. Again, it gives them a legal excuse to butt out of the whole matter. It also raises the bar for NCS Pearson, right now it's cheap for them to send demands but if you counter-notice they're going to have to actually involve a judge and the courts and it's going to get more expensive for them. Right now it's probably running on auto-pilot but once you counter-notice they'll have to decide whether it's going to be worth it to continue.
  36. No, it is illegal by coryking · · Score: 4, Informative

    No it's not illegal to ask about anything in a job interview.

    Actually, you are wrong. In the United States, asking the following types questions of a candidate are illegal:

    1. Age.
      "When did you graduate from high school?" (legal "are you over 18?")
    2. Nationality.
      "What is your native language?" ("Are you authorized to work in the US" is okay)
    3. Marrital status/Family Status.
      "Are you married?", "Do you have any children?"
    4. Affiliations
      "Are you a member of the Illuminati?"
    5. Personal
      "What is your weight?" (legal: "can you lift 40 pounds?)
    6. Disability
      "Have you ever had a heart attack?" (this is a grey area though--think airline pilots, etc)
    7. Arrest Record
      "Ever been arrested?" (legal: "Ever been convicted of money laundering", and you are applying to be an accountant)
    8. Military
      "Did you serve in Vietnam?"

    (USATODAY)

    Know your rights--keep in mind you may have more depending on the state you live in.

    Know that people aren't always aware they can't ask these kinds of questions. You are also free to disclose any of it, like your age, even if they don't ask (many people disclose their age on their resume and don't even realize it. Never add the date when you graduated from high school.)

    The key here is that if an employer bases their hiring decision on the fact you served in Vietnam, they are in the wrong. If they didn't hire you as a programmer because you are 45, they are wrong. If they didn't hire you as some hot-shot because you have kids, they are wrong.

  37. Idea for a successful law practice by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Funny

    1. Start a law practice, hang up a shingle.
    2. Advertise that your practice is limited to handling litigations for people who got their legal advice by following the consensus opinion of comments modded "+3" or higher on Slashdot.
    3. ???????
    4. Profit!

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  38. I am a copyright lawyer... by JimCYL · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... though you should take anything I say as general information rather than advice specific to your issue.

    The DMCA safe harbor provision is intended to cover user-generated content posted to your website by a third party. The idea is that you, as a website operator, should not responsible for someone else's conduct so long as you take it down.

    There is also case law (Lenz v. Universal) out of a California District Court holding that a copyright owner has an obligation to consider whether or not a particular use of its work is fair use *prior to sending a DMCA takedown notice,* and that failing to do so could constitute bad faith abuse of the DMCA.

    Sending a counter-notice, as you appear to have done, is definitely a good way to go especially if you believe that the reproduction of approximately 13 percent of the MMPI constitutes fair use. However, you seem to be in an odd situation. The normal case is for the website operator (you) to take down the post and notify the original author (the user). Then the user decides whether to file a counter-notice.

    That being said, whether or not copying the questions constitutes fair use depends largely on a few things, which are embodied in the four-factor test that someone has surely mentioned in a post by now.

    As a practical matter, it's all about context. Did you do anything other than just posting the questions? Showing that you used the questions as part of a larger work where you contributed your own thoughts and expression would make your fair use argument stronger (it's not copyright infringement - it's citation!). If all you did was copy the questions and post them without much of what courts call "transformative" use (i.e. creative input on your part), then that weakens your argument.

    Looking at the Google Cache of the original post, it seems to consist of a brief introduction:

    "I have done quite a bit of research on the MMPI 2 used by psychological testing. Here's the first 75 out of 567 questions. I could give out rest of them & how some of them are interpeted by psychologists for advice on admitting past history on the psych & medical tests. See my post on "Help with Admissions for Psych & Medial""

    And then the rest is the questions. So the issue is whether or not the user-contributed content is enough.

  39. IGNORE IT by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nobody's stated the obvious:

    - ignore it

    The Supreme Court has ruled that a law contrary to the Constitution is as if the law never existed. I think the same applies to DMCA takedown notices. Since the poster only listed a "fair use" portion of the test, not the whole thing, and copyright law protects fair use, the DMCA notice is contrary to existing copyright laws, and therefore it is as if it never existed. It has no force of law.

    The only time I would pay any attention to such a notice is if I was drug into court, and then I'd hire a small gaggle of lawyers to defend me. Otherwise I'd just file it away and forget about it.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:IGNORE IT by JWSmythe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fair use is a gray area though. It all depends on how it's used.

      If I took a 1000 question test, copied 100 questions from it, and sold that test, I'd clearly be in violation even though I didn't copy the whole thing.

      If you took 100 of 1000 questions, used them for illustrative purposes, and wrote a long commentary on it, you'd be much safer.

      In the real message, it was posted by itself. Not cited with a dialogue for a larger work.

      For example, it could have been....

      "In reviewing the MMPI-2 test, we found that some questions such as question #410 [blah][blah] are not helpful, and actually detrimental to the accurate evaluation of [blah][blah][blah]. In comparison, the 2009 Jones and Jones report titled "what do psych tests do" indicate [blah][blah][blah]."

      Regardless of the later discussion on the board, that was a passage taken directly off of their copyrighted work, and a substantial portion at that.

      It could be argued, but is it really worth it?

      I've received C&D's in the past. I usually post the C&D in replacement of the material(s) cited in that.

      [soap box mode on]

      Personally, I hate those test. Well, I hate IQ tests too. They are cut and dry "this is the answer", but you don't have the opportunity to find out what the answer is, so you're doomed to fail unless you cheat. If it were a GOOD test, either the answer would be clearly calculated with no second answer that is correct, or where two answers are correct the answer can be explained and proven to the proctor. That simply doesn't happen.

      For example, on one IQ test, it had a question very similar to the following. All along during this test, they've had comparison of the letters used, the length of the string, the shape of the letters, etc, etc.

      Q: Which of these are least similar
      1) Apple
      2) Pear
      3) Peach
      4) Potato

      So, we have 4 answers.
      Answers 1 and 3 have 5 letters, so we have two odd answers (1 and 4)
      Answers 2,3,4 all start with the letter "P", leaving answer 1 as being the odd answer.
      Answers 1,2,3 all have the letter "E" in them, leaving answer 4 as being the odd answer.
      Answers 1 and 4 have a letter repeated, giving 2 odd answers (2,3).
      Answers 2,3,4 are dark yellow (tan to brown), while answer 1 is red.
      Answers 1,2,3 are high in sugar, while 4 is high in starch.

      I have 8 potential answers. Based on the number of times I matched the comparisons above, they rank:

      1 37.5%
      4 37.5%
      3 12.5%
      2 12.5%

      Well, go with the better candidate based on the previous questions, which were more letter matching, It must be that all the answers starting with "P" are the same, and the odd one is "A". I picked my choice, and have a clear reason for choosing it. "Apple" is the odd answer.

      Wrong. It was #4, Potato. The reasoning behind the "correct" answer is, the first three are grown above ground. The fourth is grown underground.

      Unless properly proctored and graded by someone who is actually as intelligent or more intelligent than me (like, umm, can listen to all the words that I say and comprehend them), these "pick an answer" tests with a set it stone grade sheet are absolutely worthless.

      But hey, I've taken several IQ tests, and score very very well on them. I could score better if I could argue the merits of my choices, rather than just conceding that the test was poorly designed. I'd still get some wrong, and I am wil

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    2. Re:IGNORE IT by JWSmythe · · Score: 2, Interesting

          The problem with that logic is, I've taken many many intelligence tests over the years. I was in the gifted program from 1st grade through my senior year of high school. We took the tests not only to retest ourselves, but as mental challenges. Quite often, you're not looking for the idiot on the street answer, you're looking for the "what is the author asking".

          Like, which of these letters is out of place. I won't give the answer in this message, I'll come back later and put the right one.

          A B E F H

          And oddly enough, there are again two answers, even based on the absolutely correct answer.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    3. Re:IGNORE IT by JWSmythe · · Score: 2, Interesting

          Exactly. They pick an arbitrary reason, and then the tester has to be part mind reader to get the right answers.

          When I was presented with the question, I came back with quite a few answers, which all were just as reasonable. If I remember right, I came back with "A". Once I knew the answer (because it was a learning exercise), when I was presented with it on another test, I was able to answer it correctly.

          The "right" answer was "B", because it was the only letter with curves.

          Using their same logic, "A" could have been a right answer, because it was the only letter with diagonal lines.

          There are always nice clean questions with very definite answers. Then there are the questions that can be argued in any fashion, and there's no way to know the right answer without having reviewed the test material before, and have knowledge of the right answers.

          I like the very precise ones, that take a little thinking. Off the top of my head here's another one. There are two men (A and B) standing at a spot. A challenges B to a duel Standing back to back, they each walk 30 feet forward. They then each turn 90 degrees to their right, walk an additional 30 feet and stop. How far apart are the men?

          It had multiple choices. Of course, a little basic geometry answers the question. :) One answer had the total distance the men traveled, which wasn't the answer to the actual question. One answer was the straight-line distance between the men. Two other answers were "correct"-ish, if the math was done wrong, and one was just plain wrong.

          Sometimes they'll provide not so clean questions, which does not allow you to actually know the answer (insufficient information), but since they're multiple choice, you can eliminate the absolutely incorrect answers, leaving one possibly correct answer.

          Now, these are more complex problems. The questions in the original article are much simpler statements, that cannot have right answers. "Sometimes I get angry." They don't define "Angry". Angry could be a level of frustration. Sure, we're all frustrated by things on occasion. I'm frustrated that my finger hurts while I'm typing this, and have mistyped a few words because of the bandage. Angry could also be a level of emotion where you'd reach over your cube wall, and punch a coworker (or worse). Being that I'm talking to a prospective employer, do I want to give the impression that I may go postal? Probably not. Employers like happy people who do what they're told and smile about it. Anger shouldn't show to coworkers or customers.

          I believe the logic to this question would expect a "yes" answer. Their logic is that everyone gets angry. If you answer "no", you're lying. But hey, I could be wrong, and "yes" means that you're mentally unstable. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.