Slashdot Mirror
Dealing With a Copyright Takedown Request?
George Maschke writes "I recently received a takedown notice from a corporate lawyer demanding that I remove a post on my Web site's message board. It purportedly lists the first 75 of 567 questions on the MMPI-2 paper-and-pencil psychological test. It seems to me that such posting of a limited amount copyrighted material for discussion purposes on a public-interest, non-profit Web site falls within the scope of the fair use exemption of US copyright law. I have thus declined to remove the post. I believe that the corporation in question is seeking to chill public discussion of its test, which applicants for employment with many governmental agencies are required to complete. I would be interested in this community's thoughts on the matter."
I'm sure most people will agree that what you've done falls well within the realm of fair use. But you know very well that you're going to need to talk to legal counsel with expertise in copyright matters, and that means money. Maybe someone with contacts in the Electronic Frontier Foundation could give you a hand. Sometimes having a lawyer responding to the guy making the threat is enough to make them back down.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Hi, I'm not a lawyer nor are many people you're likely to see posting here.
But that percentage sounds like it may just cross the line for fair use, or perhaps even editorial comment. If you are going to go against the wishes of a larger entity, be sure of the percentage that might cross a line and trim to that. It may not be necessary to remove if you can editorialize.
Otherwise, I hope you run the website through an LLC.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This is a particular case, given that it is dealing with a psychological test. In many or most cases these rely on the test-taker not knowing the exact questions ahead of time. As you're dealing with over 10% of the test here, it's not all that far-fetched to say that foreknowledge of these questions could skew the results in a statistically significant way. This would count as causing harm or devaluing the original work (by causing prospective clients [the government] to doubt its results), which are direct reasons for fair use not to apply. Of course, IANAL and you should seek one, etc, but it seems to me that this is not that unreasonable a claim. A single question? Sure. 75 of them? Probably not so much.
Stuff.
Ask a lawyer, not Slashdot.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
Why do all of the Ask Slashdot questions boil down to: "I want free legal advice. Give me an opinion on x."
My thought is that you should really ask a lawyer what to do. Sheesh, do you really want free legal advice from random people with lots of free time on their hands?
That's a lovely sentiment, but sometimes simply saying "Fuck off" won't do it. Remember, a company either has a legal team or lawyers on retainer, and for them the expense of taking this some distance is minimal as compared to the poor SOB whose getting the take-down notice. It's going to cost money, at least a grand or two, to even get a letter, but a letter from another attorney laying out his fair-use rights and the risks of abusing the take-down notice clause is probably all it will take.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Go immediately to http://www.chillingeffects.org/
You've already received a formal takedown notice from a genuine lawyer; you need to consult a lawyer of your own. ASAP. The Slashdot community's thoughts may well be interesting/insightful/flamebait/overrated, but they're no substitute for trained legal counsel.
Look up your local bar and see if you can find an IP lawyer with reasonable rates for a consultation. Failing that, contact the Electronic Frontier Foundation; perhaps they can help, or at least point you in the right direction.
Was it certified? Can they prove they sent it?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Your choice is pretty simple:
1) Take it down, or
2) Deal with their lawyers.
Since you are asking Slashdot, you don't have a lawyer, or you wouldn't need the reams of idiocy you'll find as a response**. They didn't mention the DMCA, which would at least allow you to defer the problem to the original poster. (who could ask to have it put back up after you notify them)
You got nothing. So, take it down, and resist the urge to post it to wikileaks while enjoying a $0.75 cup of coffee at a local coffee shop with Wifi because that might be considered (ahem) copyright infringement... how long you resist that urge is up to you.
Some fights are worth fighting. It's rarely worth fighting a fight you have no resources to win. Pearson is a big, big, big uber-ultra teh evil mega-corporation, but this is unlikely to be controversial enough to benefit from the Streissand Effect.
You have much better things to worry about.
** Feel free to consider this post idiotic
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Sorry, but 13% of the content is not "limited". If I reprint 85 pages of "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince", would you consider that a "limited amount"? I don't think the publisher would... Not to mention you say "the first 75"... If it had been a 'random' 75, with commentary and discussion for each one; that would be one thing. Even then, it would be dubious. Even if I split it into one-paragraph sections, with commentary and discussion between each paragraph, 85 pages worth of Harry Potter would be difficult to claim under fair use.
For example, the usage of 400 words out of a 500 page book was considered infringement: Harper Row vs. Nation Enterprises.
Now, according to the wonderful DMCA, if you take the material down now, *YOU* are safe from prosecution. If you present the user of your board the opportunity to protest, then if they want to put it back up, *THEY* become the responsible party.
Peer1.com seems to be under the impression that once a DMCA takedown notice is received, the material mentioned in the notice must be removed for a period of 14 days, after which, if the complainant does not provide notification that it has sought a court order, the material may be restored. However, my understanding is that the material may be placed back on-line (PDF) promptly upon the service provider's receipt of a counter-claim (which I have already sent), that is, there is no need to wait 14 days.
It's also worth noting that Pearson, the copyright holder of the MMPI-2, filed a takedown notice for the very same post in 2007. We promptly filed a counter-notice, Pearson took no further action, and we thought the matter resolved. Has anyone had a problem with a copyright holder filing repeated DMCA takedown notices to one's service provider for the same material?
George W. Maschke
AntiPolygraph.org
In related news, a cached link:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:yqGq0HqljfcJ:https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl%3Fnum%3D1109032158+https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl%3Fnum%3D1109032158&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Signed,
Somebody who is assuredly not gnick
=)
TRUE OR FALSE (567 QUESTIONS)
1.I like mechanics magazines
2.I have a good appetite
3.I wake up fresh & rested most mornings
4.I think I would like the work of a librarian
5.I am easily awakened by noise
6.I like to read newspaper articles on crime
7.My hands and feet are usually warm enough
8.My daily life is full of things that keep me interested
9.I am about as able to work as I ever was
10.There seems to be a lump in my throat much of the time
11.A person should try to understand his dreams and be guided by or take warning from them
12.I enjoy detective or mystery stories
13.I work under a great deal of tension
14.I have diarrhea once a month or more
15.Once in a while I think of things too bad to talk about
16.I am sure I get a raw deal from life
17.My father was a good man
18.I am very seldom troubled by constipation
19.When I take a new, I like to be tipped off on whom should be gotten next to
20.My sex life is satisfactory
21.At times I have very much wanted to leave home
22.At times I have fits of laughing & crying that I cannot control
23.I am troubled by attacks of nausea and vomiting
24.No one seems to understand me
25.I would like to be a singer
26.I feel that it is certainly best to keep my mouth shut when Iâ(TM)m in trouble
27.Evil spirits possess me at times
28.When someone does me a wrong I feel I should pay him back if I can, just for the principle of the thing.
29.I am bothered by acid stomach several times a week
30.At times I feel like swearing
31.I have nightmares every few nights
32.I find it hard to keep my mind on a task or job
33.I have had very peculiar and strange experiences
34.I have a cough most of the time
35.If people had not had it in for me I would have been much more successful
36.I seldom worry about my heath
37.I have never been in trouble because of my sex behavior
38.During one period when I was a youngster I engaged in petty thievery
39.At times I feel like smashing things
40.Most any time I would rather sit and daydream than to do anything else
41.I have had periods of days, weeks, or months when I couldnâ(TM)t take care of things because I couldnâ(TM)t âoeget goingâ
42.My family does not like the work I have chosen ( or the work I intend to choose for my life work)
43.My sleep is fitful and disturbed
44.Much of the time my head seems to hurt all over
45.I do not always tell the truth
46.My judgment is better than it ever was
47.Once a week or oftener I feel suddenly hot all over without apparent cause
48.When I am with people I am bothered by hearing very queer things
49.It would be better if almost all laws were thrown away
50.My soul sometimes leaves my body
51.I am in just as good physical health as most of my friends
52.I prefer to pass by school friends, or people I know but have not seen for a long time, unless they speak to me first
53.A minister can cure disease by praying and putting his hand on your head
54.I am liked by most people who know me
55.I am almost never bothered by pains over the heart or in my chest
56.As a youngster I was suspended from school one or more times for cutting up
57.I am a good mixer
58.Everything is turning out just like the prophets of the Bible said it would
59.I have often had to take orders from someone who did not know as much as I did
60.I do not read every editorial in the newspaper everyday
61.I have not lived the right kind of life
62.Parts of my body often have feeling like burning, tingling, crawling, or like âoegoing to sleepâ
63.I have had no difficulty in starting or holding my bowel movement
64.I sometimes keep
MMPI 2 TEST QUESTIONS IN ORDER
TRUE OR FALSE (567 QUESTIONS)
1.I like mechanics magazines
2.I have a good appetite
3.I wake up fresh & rested most mornings
4.I think I would like the work of a librarian
5.I am easily awakened by noise
6.I like to read newspaper articles on crime
7.My hands and feet are usually warm enough
8.My daily life is full of things that keep me interested
9.I am about as able to work as I ever was
10.There seems to be a lump in my throat much of the time
11.A person should try to understand his dreams and be guided by or take warning from them
12.I enjoy detective or mystery stories
13.I work under a great deal of tension
14.I have diarrhea once a month or more
15.Once in a while I think of things too bad to talk about
16.I am sure I get a raw deal from life
17.My father was a good man
18.I am very seldom troubled by constipation
19.When I take a new, I like to be tipped off on whom should be gotten next to
20.My sex life is satisfactory
21.At times I have very much wanted to leave home
22.At times I have fits of laughing & crying that I cannot control
23.I am troubled by attacks of nausea and vomiting
24.No one seems to understand me
25.I would like to be a singer
26.I feel that it is certainly best to keep my mouth shut when Iâ(TM)m in trouble
27.Evil spirits possess me at times
28.When someone does me a wrong I feel I should pay him back if I can, just for the principle of the thing.
29.I am bothered by acid stomach several times a week
30.At times I feel like swearing
31.I have nightmares every few nights
32.I find it hard to keep my mind on a task or job
33.I have had very peculiar and strange experiences
34.I have a cough most of the time
35.If people had not had it in for me I would have been much more successful
36.I seldom worry about my heath
37.I have never been in trouble because of my sex behavior
38.During one period when I was a youngster I engaged in petty thievery
39.At times I feel like smashing things
40.Most any time I would rather sit and daydream than to do anything else
41.I have had periods of days, weeks, or months when I couldnâ(TM)t take care of things because I couldnâ(TM)t âoeget goingâ
42.My family does not like the work I have chosen ( or the work I intend to choose for my life work)
43.My sleep is fitful and disturbed
44.Much of the time my head seems to hurt all over
45.I do not always tell the truth
46.My judgment is better than it ever was
47.Once a week or oftener I feel suddenly hot all over without apparent cause
48.When I am with people I am bothered by hearing very queer things
49.It would be better if almost all laws were thrown away
50.My soul sometimes leaves my body
51.I am in just as good physical health as most of my friends
52.I prefer to pass by school friends, or people I know but have not seen for a long time, unless they speak to me first
53.A minister can cure disease by praying and putting his hand on your head
54.I am liked by most people who know me
55.I am almost never bothered by pains over the heart or in my chest
56.As a youngster I was suspended from school one or more times for cutting up
57.I am a good mixer
58.Everything is turning out just like the prophets of the Bible said it would
59.I have often had to take orders from someone who did not know as much as I did
60.I do not read every editorial in the newspaper everyday
61.I have not lived the right kind of life
62.Parts of my body often have feeling like burning, tingling, crawling, or like âoegoing to sleepâ
63.I have had no difficulty in starting or holding my bowel movement
64.I sometimes keep on at a thing until others lose their patience with me
65.I loved my father
66.I see things or animals or people around me that others do not see
67.I wish I could be as happy as others seem to be
68.I hardly ever feel pain in the back of
And this is precisely the problem with the DMCA. A large company who retain a team of lawyers on salary will have no problem firing off a few dozen such takedown notices. The cost of hiring a lawyer to screen them all for actual, valid complaints becomes rapidly prohibitive for the private citizen on the other end.
This is why the DMCA needs strongly punitive measures for repeat posting of unwarranted takedown notices for economic purposes.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
I noticed several posts pointing out some of the seemingly silly questions (ie "My hands and feet get cold"). They may in fact be silly but there is reasoning behind them. I went and actually did some reading up on how the test is supposed to work. There are 8 different major scales measured and several other more minor ones too. For example Scale 1 is essentially looking at Hypochondria, a person's tendency to be really focused on (and maybe whiny) about every little ache and pain. The test understands that everyone has some stuff wrong with them and certain physical peeves too, so you're supposed to mark some of the stuff "T". But if you look at the questions, there are a bunch about this physical stuff and they are all over the place. If you put a "T" by a whole lot of them, then the test scores you higher on this scale. If you put an "F" by all of them, the test basically scores your "truthfulness on test questions" lower because these are things that everyone should complain about a few of.
The issue of test validity is a big deal and dealt with in different ways including checking for truthfulness by asking the same thing in a different way in different parts of the test. There are a bunch of these question pairs and there are some set up for consistent answers being "T/T", "T/F", and "F/F". There are also question sequences in the back half of the test designed to detect if the user is just starting to mostly randomly check or barely skim questions. Too high on this and the test is reflected as invalid.
Gaming the test is not as easy as it might seem at first glance. Some questions can be taken at face value, like "I sometimes think about killing myself". If you check that one "T" along with some other similar questions then you may well be suicidal. However, there are other questions that state mildly negative personality traits that most people have. If you refuse to admit to any of them then the test scores you as either trying to present an unrealistically positive image or as having an unrealistic self-image/ego. Answering some of those type questions with a "T" will get the test to paint you as a self-confident personality with a healthy self-image that feels no need to hide common human foibles.
Personally, I'm a skeptic of these kinds of tests. I think they may work to some degree in some scenarios with some people but there will be other scenarios or people for which the test will largely fail. This particular test is also susceptible to interpretation error. Some evaluators tend to focus in on individual scales but what I read says that that over-simple approach almost always yields skewed results. To get an accurate scoring the evaluator must consider the scales together. In large scale testing of different populations, the experts in this claim to have identified different groupings, for example two particular scales elevated while a third specific scale is lowered may represent a certain personality trait (ie rebelliousness or conformity). It's also said that the evaluator *must* have accurate background info on the subject (ie record of physical violence, manic behavior, etc). These factors can apparently change the assessment significantly.
Such a test would be rather illegal in the UK, and probably much of the EU.
20.My sex life is satisfactory
69.I am very strongly attracted by members of my own sex
Both questions could count as sexual harassment. (Aside from the fact, most sane people would tell the questioner to fuck off and mind there own business)
14.I have diarrhea once a month or more
Surely questions about your health that are not job releted are illegal?
58.Everything is turning out just like the prophets of the Bible said it would
LOL ! Don't get me started on the legality of this one!
I'm honestly amazed these questions are considered acceptable.
Here, they WOULD bring the law crashing down on you.
Anyone quoted by a reporter knows how little they understand
Don't believe what you read is the truth.
You should talk to the pope about that...
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
" (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in
relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value
of the copyrighted work."
Using 75 out of 567 is a substantial fraction of the whole. This might be more than you might casually get away with as an "excerpt".
Further, the MMPI is a "Personality Inventory" test... it may well be that the (alleged) effectiveness of the test relies on the test-taker to not know the questions beforehand. The test maker may therefore have a legitimate beef in regard to item (4).
Do not misunderstand me: according to my college psychology professor, tests such as MMPI and MMPI2 were thoroughly discredited many years ago. I question its worth from the beginning. But that does not mean that the copyright holder does not have a case.
He may have published 13% of the questions, but that's well under 10% of the total material related to the MMPI test - you need the scoring criteria as well. The questions, by themselves, are pretty much worthless, and you can be sure that the scoring criteria are longer than the test itself - otherwise, the test is even more bs than it seems.
So, since they already hand them out in such quantities (and they really do), there's no "trade secret". Anyone who has taken the test now has the "trade secret knowledge", and without a signed non-disclosure agreement to boot.
Tempest, meet teapot.
The questions themselves are a valid topic of discussion, especially when used in an employment context, where they are, in many areas, just plain illegal to ask.
By plugging the text of #66 and #67 into Goggle using quotes to get phrase matches:
1-75 plus some bogus ones
370 questsions of another version
1-75 plus 1-130 of the 370 version
(PDF) contains a sampling of about 100 randomly ordered questions
1-75
1-566 as VB .asp program source (!) and possibly with "preferred" answers
Enjoy your Streisand Effect!
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Actually, you are wrong. In the United States, asking the following types questions of a candidate are illegal:
"When did you graduate from high school?" (legal "are you over 18?")
"What is your native language?" ("Are you authorized to work in the US" is okay)
"Are you married?", "Do you have any children?"
"Are you a member of the Illuminati?"
"What is your weight?" (legal: "can you lift 40 pounds?)
"Have you ever had a heart attack?" (this is a grey area though--think airline pilots, etc)
"Ever been arrested?" (legal: "Ever been convicted of money laundering", and you are applying to be an accountant)
"Did you serve in Vietnam?"
(USATODAY)
Know your rights--keep in mind you may have more depending on the state you live in.
Know that people aren't always aware they can't ask these kinds of questions. You are also free to disclose any of it, like your age, even if they don't ask (many people disclose their age on their resume and don't even realize it. Never add the date when you graduated from high school.)
The key here is that if an employer bases their hiring decision on the fact you served in Vietnam, they are in the wrong. If they didn't hire you as a programmer because you are 45, they are wrong. If they didn't hire you as some hot-shot because you have kids, they are wrong.