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AT&T Has Begun Issuing RIAA Takedown Notices

suraj.sun writes with this excerpt from CNet: "AT&T, one of the nation's largest Internet service providers, confirmed on Tuesday the company is working with the recording industry to combat illegal file sharing. At a digital music conference in Nashville, Jim Cicconi, a senior executive for AT&T told the audience that the ISP has begun issuing takedown notices to people accused of pirating music by the Recording Industry Association of America, according to one music industry insider who was present. In December, the RIAA, the lobbying group of the four largest recording companies, announced the group would no longer pursue an antipiracy strategy that focused on suing individuals, but rather would seek the help of broadband providers to stem the flow of pirated content. The RIAA said an undisclosed number of ISPs had agreed to cooperate but declined to name them. This is important because the RIAA has said that repeat offenders faced the possibility of losing service — at least temporarily — as part of the music industry's 'graduated response' plan."

37 of 383 comments (clear)

  1. At least this is better than the legal system by KyleTheDarkOne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This, correct me if I'm wrong, is completely legal; so I would rather them pursue this vein of inquiry than through legal action.

    1. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by bilbravo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Exactly. There may be concerns of privacy (ISP snooping your data, etc) but considering what we've seen the RIAA due (sue people for ridiculous sums of money) this seems sensible.

      "Hey, what you're doing is violating copyright and can bring a hefty fine! So why don't you stop it?"

      Common sense is what we preach, but I have a feeling this won't be good enough for most here on /.

    2. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by bilbravo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That's a slippery slope. And it's a fallacy.

    3. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by fredklein · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "The heart of the slippery slope fallacy lies in abusing the intuitively appreciable transitivity of implication, claiming that A lead to B, B leads to C, C leads to D and so on, until one finally claims that A leads to Z. While this is formally valid when the premises are taken as a given, each of those contingencies needs to be factually established before the relevant conclusion can be drawn. Slippery slope fallacies occur when this is not done -- an argument that supports the relevant premises is not fallacious and thus isn't a slippery slope fallacy."

      In other words, Slippery Slope is only a fallacy if you assume (with no further evidence) that 'A' must inevitably lead to 'Z'. If you have evidence that supports each step of the way, it isn't a logical fallacy.

      Besides, most people using the Slippery Slope argument are using a 'worst case' scenario to show what MIGHT happen, not what necessarily WILL happen. It makes sense to avoid scenarios where bad things can happen. (ie: wear your seatbelt, or if you get in an accident, you could get thrown out of the car and die. Using that argument doesn't mean you WILL get in an accident, or that you WILL die if you get in one, but rather that it is a possibility, and because of the severity of the results, it is good to avoid scenarios with such possibilities.)

    4. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is common sense because the company providing you with internet access is free to terminate that access for any reason at all, or no reason. If they believe it benefits them to arrange some kind of 'graduated response' against copyright violation then they are free to do so.

      Just like you are free to buy internet access from someone who hasn't made a similar arrangement.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    5. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe it's time to move off these carriers completely and use a communications infrastructure that can't be metered or switched off at a central point because it's technologically impossible to do so?

      Or you could pay for your music.

    6. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by Demonantis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think when he says slippery slope he is not arguing the guarantee of abuse but the ramifications of the action on future actions. The ISP is acting as a legal body by serving its customers legal documents. Thusly breaking the Client-Service boundary. This can be likened to a person that felt harassed by you requesting that your telephone provider disconnect you because you "harassed" them over the phone. I for one dislike the corporate big brother that this alliance suggests.

    7. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by Jawn98685 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In New York State that would be a felony:

      250.05 Eavesdropping.

      A person is guilty of eavesdropping when he unlawfully engages in wiretapping, mechanical overhearing of a conversation, or intercepting or accessing of an electronic communication. Eavesdropping is a class E felony.

      8. "Unlawfully" means not specifically authorized pursuant to article seven hundred or seven hundred five of the criminal procedure law for the purposes of this section and sections 250.05, 250.10, 250.15, 250.20, 250.25, 250.30 and 250.35 of this article.

      This is assuming that the information that lead to the take down requests came from the interception of traffic between end-points. If the RIAA enforcers are keeping track of which end-point has willfully advertised content as available, and then provided that content upon request, it absolutely can not be argued that the cited laws apply.

      We are making a rather large assumption here, that the ISP's are actively monitoring streams of data looking for copyrighted material despite the many legal proscriptions (it's not like we're looking for "terrorists", after all) and the formidable expense of such an operation. Someone show me that the ISP's are acting in such a fashion or STFU, already.

    8. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just like you are free to buy internet access from someone who hasn't made a similar arrangement.

      For better or worse internet access is usually provided by someone with a governmentally granted monopoly. In exchange for that monopoly it is usually accepted that we can regulate how they can behave. I would agree with your underlying notion if we had anything remotely approaching a free market for internet service but we alas we don't.

      So we can either change that and end the granted monopolies (my preference) or we can regulate what the ISPs are allowed to do. In the latter scenario I don't happen to think they should be allowed to terminate customers based solely on the word of an outside party.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    9. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by muntis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Jo mean, something like, hmm. Internet?

    10. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by bilbravo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So at what point in the post above is proof offered that the ISP serving take down notices will ultimately lead said ISP snooping any and all data for any third party that asks for it?

      I also fail to see how my suggestion that it is slippery slope/fallacy is off-topic. It is entirely on-topic; I am suggesting that the reply to my initial comment is not valid. Maybe I was incorrect with my assertion, but that doesn't make it off-topic! ::face palm:: *this wasn't directed at fredklein, but I didn't want to make another post.

    11. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Comparing DSL/Cable with Satellite and even dial-up is almost an insult. Its like comparing a tank, an SUV, and a moped. Very few people would consider all of those technologies as even viable. Would you take a moped into battle? Would you drive your tank to a local amusement park? Would you take your SUV on the Appalachian Trail?

      Dial-up and Satellite aren't an option to someone who uses their internet connection for "hardcore gaming". You wouldn't want to be using VOIP on either of these as well.

      Face it. You oversimplified the subject so you could condemn everyone as a crybaby, when closer to the truth is, there ISN'T always a viable alternative. If you only have one friend, no matter how shitty they are, it may not be in your best interest to tell them "I'm taking my toys and going to play with someone else!"

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    12. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>>RIAA is punching you in the face because you might have bought a recording, might not, but you're giving it out copies of it for free.

      That's vigilante justice and it's not allowed. Removal of access violates the Constitutional right to a trial by your peers. It presumes guilt before innocence, and is therefore contrary to our basic principles. ------ Instead AT&T should be required to maintain internet connectivity until *after* RIAA has proved their case in court (i.e. you are innocent until proven guilty), and then and only then should AT&T cancel internet access.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    13. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This removes the RIAA's campaign from the courts, where it was starting to show embarrassing losses, and where its underhanded and possibly illegal methods were subject to scrutiny, and allows it to operate in a realm where there are few, if any, checks on its abuses.

      I don't support copying music illegally, but I also don't want my ISP in the back pocket of a powerful and ruthless corporate entity that has repeatedly shown lack of restraint, bad faith, bad judgment, and a complete disregard for those it wrongfully harms.

      I have rights in the courts. What rights do I have if my ISP decides to cut my service? What happens when the RIAA wrongfully accuses someone, as they have in the past?

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    14. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by johnsonav · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Removal of access violates the Constitutional right to a trial by your peers.

      Where does the constitution state that you're entitled to a jury trial before a private business can refuse to have you as a customer? Because I'm pretty sure it's not in there at all.

      --
      ... and that's when the C.H.U.D.'s came at me.
    15. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by Rich0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ok, I see your argument - companies should be free to do whatever they want and we're free to do business with however we want.

      However, before we allow ATT to take these kinds of actions, shouldn't we first repeal any laws restricting who is allowed to string fiber optic cables on telephone poles, or put telephone poles up in the first place?

      In most areas it is illegal to start up your own ISP (and I mean a true end-to-end solution - not just renting lines from ATT/etc which doesn't solve the problem). If that is to be the case, then it seems reasonable for society to be allowed to regulate how the monopoly providers behave.

      Also - because telecom is a natural monopoly you're still going to need regulation to get companies to play nicely. That theoretical right to string your own wires is worthless if the Tier-1 providers refuse to route your traffic. Due to technical issues with routing I can even see why they might do so for semi-legitimate reasons.

      The problem is that ATT wants libertarian policies when it benefits them, and a command economy where competition is concerned.

    16. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by seandiggity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just like you are free to buy internet access from someone who hasn't made a similar arrangement.

      I've never had more than three choices for an ISP; I've only lived in a few towns in an affluent state with a large IT infrastructure (Connecticut). In some cases I only had one choice.

      This "vote with your wallet" stuff only works if:
      A. You have choices.
      B. You have enough money to choose based upon other factors besides cost.
      C. Every one of your choices isn't engaging in the dubious behavior you're trying to avoid.

      --
      Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
    17. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Besides, most people using the Slippery Slope argument are using a 'worst case' scenario to show what MIGHT happen, not what necessarily WILL happen.

      Well, in that case, everything is a slippery slope towards nuclear war, or a meteor wiping all life on earth out. Sure it's a long shot, but it is technically the worst case scenario.

      Besides, I disagree with your analysis of the slippery slope's fallaciousness. The problem isn't with transitivity at all, since many of implications don't exist in the first place. The implications put forward are gross oversimplifications of several complex factors, that are often completely incorrect, and reflect more on the person grinding their favourite axe, than it does on the situation they're commenting on.

      The real problem with most slippery slope (and frog-boiling) arguments is that they essentially try to pass of hyperbole as a legitimate argument. Think about it: that's really what it is. We take a small piece of erroneous information, ignore several mitigating, equilibrium factors, run with it as far as we'll go, and there you have it: a grotesque hypothetical situation that has only a passing resemblance to reality.

      It's true, this hypothetical situation, no matter how absurd, cannot be disproved, and is still technically possible, but that's no reason to give it serious consideration. Just like Intelligent Design can't be disproved, but that doesn't mean we consider it a serious scientific theory (just the opposite, in fact).

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    18. Re:At least this is better than the legal system by phulegart · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cutting off someone's internet is NOT akin to cutting off the electricity. That is why for people who use electric heat in the winter, the electric companies WON'T turn off the electricity. Why? They could kill that former customer. No heat + winter = illness or death. The pumps that pull water from the artesian wells run on electricity. There are far more people counting on electricity to keep their food from spoiling, than there are earning their living off direct home internet access.

      Regardless of personal usage, the internet is a luxury. Electricity is not.

      Look. If you believe or don't believe that downloading music and sharing it on the net is wrong... it doesn't matter. Most people don't think that driving 5 to 10 mph over the posted speed limit should be illegal. That does not stop them from getting the speeding ticket. They believe that since they haven't gotten a ticket yet, it is an OK thing. That feeling continues right up until they get stopped for speeding.

      Just because it is out there, begging to be plucked, does not mean it SHOULD be plucked. The internet is a great exercise demonstrating the futility of resisting temptation.

      --
      "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -D. Adams
  2. Defense? by oahazmatt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is there anyway to defend yourself from these claims? Is there no burden of proof on the RIAA's side? Will AT&T simply punish those accused?

    In short, screenshot or it didn't happen.

    --
    Those who believe the Internet is private,
    find their privates are on the Internet.
    1. Re:Defense? by plasmacutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not a court of law and most (if not all) ISPs have the right to discountinue service to you at their whim.

      Now since AT&T doesn't want to lose money they may require the RIAA to show some kind of proof (e.g. logs). Also you will get warnings before you get disconnected. So when you get your first warning, if you are innocent, see if your network has a list fix it and you are done. If you don't find a leak call AT&T to help you out. Maybe the IP address they have listed for you is actually your neighbor who is downloading stuff.

      or you can cancel your service and move to an ISP who wont harass and threaten you based on unsubstantiated accusations.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    2. Re:Defense? by furby076 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      or you can cancel your service and move to an ISP who wont harass and threaten you based on unsubstantiated accusations.

      You could, but if your options are like mine you have: Verizon DSL (crap-tastically slow)
      Satellite (worse then DSL)
      Comcast
      AT&T (i don't know what they offer but I am sure they ahve something) And I live in downtown philadelphia. I need speed I can't go below Comcast. Once I get fios (maybe 2 years it will be available) then I will be switching. But still, I am sure verizon will help the riaa too.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    3. Re:Defense? by TechForensics · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not a court of law and most (if not all) ISPs have the right to discountinue service to you at their whim.

      This is probably not true since internet access has become akin to a public utility on which people's livelihoods depend. Is it OK to put Ted Telecommuter out of work because Ted Jr. can't be disciplined out of unauthorized downloading?

      --
      Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
  3. Just another way for ISPs to make money... by RagingFuryBlack · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I still find it amazing that ISPs go along with thi....wait...we're talking about Comcast/Verizon here. Same people who used to throttle legitimate P2P traffic. I guess we can assume that if you're shut off for 3 months for downloading music, there will be a fee greater than the bill for 3 months of service you missed to reinstate your account.

    --
    Warning: Corny karma killing post above.
  4. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  5. Kicked off Internet by fiat by Porchroof · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Note that the accused is just that: the accused. Being accused of piracy is enough to get you kicked off the Internet. No trial. No jury. No judge. To AT&T and others, to be accused is to be guilty. God help us all.

    --
    Fata viam invenient.
    1. Re:Kicked off Internet by fiat by pentalive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you have one available.

    2. Re:Kicked off Internet by fiat by mea37 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're at a party and someone tells the host you're hitting on his wife, does he have to give you a jury trial before he throws you out?

      AT&T is a private company. Access to the service they provide is not a right. All allusions to due process, burden of proof, trial, etc. are off-point in this conversation. Why shouldn't AT&T be able to make the business decision to drop some ISP customers?

      If it's disruptive to too many customers, it'll cost them money (at the benefit of their competitors). If it's a money-losing business decision (putting cooperation with the RIAA above profits), perhaps the shareholders can sue.

      But meanwhile, you might want to check your contract, because the things they're agreeing to monitor are likely to be against the ToS already.

    3. Re:Kicked off Internet by fiat by MadKeithV · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you're at a party and someone who is notorious for crashing parties and telling the host that random people (who may or may not actually be at the party) are hitting on his wife tells the host you're hitting on his wife, does he have to give you a jury trial before he throws you out?

      There, fixed that for you.

    4. Re:Kicked off Internet by fiat by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The answer is still no, though.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  6. That's nice, but... by LoganTeamX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When are they doing to do something about the plethora of zombie computers on their home subscriber feeds? They'll police the "illegal sharing" of content but they don't care how much spam their users generate? Sounds a little fishy to me.

    --
    One of the 187.
  7. This is why we need pay-per-byte by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I still find it amazing that ISPs go along with thi....wait...we're talking about Comcast/Verizon here. Same people who used to throttle legitimate P2P traffic. I guess we can assume that if you're shut off for 3 months for downloading music, there will be a fee greater than the bill for 3 months of service you missed to reinstate your account.

    It took me a while to figure out what was in it for them as well. After all, this is a lot of work just to piss off your customers. But you hit it with the comparison to P2P throttling - what they want to do is get rid of their most unprofitable customers - those using the most bandwidth. One subset of people using lots of bandwidth includes people downloading music illegally. As it happens, that's a group easy to go after - but they certainly won't stop there.

    If you want to see this go away, we need to push for the demise of flat-rate pricing. If the carriers were *more* money by the people using more bandwidth (for whatever reason), they'd be telling the RIAA to go pound sand.

  8. Re:Fine by theaceoffire · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As long as They don't screw with my traffic, I can accept this.

    As long as you can accept this, they will screw with your traffic.

    --
    I steal signatures. This one used to be yours.
  9. Re:Configure your clients for encryption only by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As much as I love encryption and would like to see more bittorrent clients using it I hope you realize that it means absolutely nothing with regards to keeping RIAA from knowing you are sharing.

    The typical method that they use is to connect to the tracker and get a list of the clients who are sharing the file(s) in question. It doesn't matter if your client is running encryption or not -- they are going to find out that your IP address is sharing this file. The only solution for this is private trackers. In the end all RIAA is going to accomplish is to drive file sharing underground.

    Take heart though, it will take us geeks popular again. When that cute girl down the street is too stupid/scared to figure out how to pirate music on her own who do you think she is going to come to? ;)

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  10. Cyberpunk/Shadowrun by whisper_jeff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I remember, as a younger lad, playing games like Cyberpunk and Shadowrun and thinking that these future-fantasy worlds where megacorps ruled the world, competing and colluding with each other in a massive game, with governments relegated to the role of their legislative pawns was a lot of fun but far out there and obviously fictional.

    Oh, how I miss my youthful days... Getting older and watching fiction become reality is not pleasant...

    1. Re:Cyberpunk/Shadowrun by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It wasn't really fiction back then, either. We were just too stupid to notice it or too drunk to care. Those with money have always stood behind those with power.

      And it'll always be that way.

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
  11. Re:Solution by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1, Insightful

    No they don't, they simply have to prove that your peer transferred a significant portion of the file to another peer - that is still distribution under Copyright Law, and enough of a case against you to procede to court under.

    Slashdotters seem to absolutely love hiding behind technology when it comes to other peoples content. Heres a novel idea - if you don't like the copyright terms, or the licensing terms, avoid that content and find something else. Its that simple - you do not have to have the latest Britney Spears right now, you don't have to watch the latest TV program right now, you don't need that movie right now. Find someone else who is distributing content under terms you agree with, and work with them rather than opening yourselves up to potential harm and thinking hiding behind technology and weak beliefs shouting 'nah nah nah cant get me!' simply because you want the current mainstream content.