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UN Attacks Free Speech
newsblaze writes "The UN Human Rights Council assaulted free expression today, in a 23-11 vote that urges member states to adopt laws outlawing criticism of religions. The proposal came to the UN from Pakistan on behalf of the Organization for the Islamic Conference. There were 13 abstentions. South Korea, Japan, India, Mexico and Brazil, all strong democracies, allowed this to pass by abrogating their responsibility. While the resolution doesn't mention the online world, where does this subject get mentioned most, if not online?" The coverage is from NewsBlaze, which says its mission is to carry important news that other media are not paying attention to. There does not seem to be any other coverage of this vote.
Update: 03/29 00:48 GMT by KD : Reader kshade wrote in: "Actually this is covered by conventional media, even FOX news (Google News links). The absentees weren't there because they boycotted the proposal."
Update: 03/29 00:48 GMT by KD : Reader kshade wrote in: "Actually this is covered by conventional media, even FOX news (Google News links). The absentees weren't there because they boycotted the proposal."
...for April Fools Day. This is a joke, right?
Forgive my scepticism, but I have to wait until I see a second, less biased source before I take this at face value. The rule of reporting is to get two verifications, and I think I'm going to do just that.
Let's stop dilly-dallying and just change "-1: Overrated" to "-1: Disagree" or "-1: Doesn't Subscribe to Groupthink".
Seriously, this isn't a troll, even if you disagree with me. But when is the last time the UN did a thing for the US? We get resolutions of "Give money to undeveloped countries" and "Sure, go to war, but we're not gonna do shiat"...when is the last time they actually did something positive for the US?
An organization that has devolved into "the rich countries should give aid to the poor countries", has stopped being useful to anyone but the leeches. Seriously, can anyone tell me what the UN has done for the US lately, and is there a real reputation hit we'd take from leaving it (as opposed to what we do now, which is to largely ignore it)?
I want to see the actual resolution. Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on what exactly the resolution said.
If it is trying to outlaw legitimate criticism, that would obviously be bad. On the other hand maybe the news source is blowing this out of proportion and the resolution merely points out that certain generalizations about groups are harmful to free and open discussion.
It all depends on the exact wording.
When are the democracies of the world going to realize that political and economic freedom plus human rights are not protected by a body that gives equal voice to dictatorships and theocracies?
The UN Human Rights Committe is a joke. It's not taken seriously anywhere because it's just used by flagrant human rights abusers as a "bash Israel" platform.
This is a meaningless vote from a discredited body. It's not worth media attention.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
Because it is from the UN Human Rights Council, led by countries who are anything but concerned about rights.
Seems to me that the UN is following the same naming system as the American Congress with Bills. (As in every Bill of "some new right" seems to lose me more of the rights I already had)
I am amazed they didn't exclude Judaism from it.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
A law outlawing free speech would crash and burn in the US.
Good troll though. =D
Telling the truth about some religions would count as defamation. Quoting their own "holy books" would count as defamation.
Fuck the UN and fuck any religion if the truth bothers them. Cut off a few less heads, toss acid on a few less faces and blow up a few less market places if hearing the truth bothers you.
The religion a person practices is sorta like the OS a computer runs
Or from another point of view, it's more like a virus that spreads from infected people to healthy people. This transmission usually happens in early childhood when parents pass it to their children, but infection can happen at any age.
Like most viruses, they tend to slow you down and impair your judgment, creativity and free thinking, although the infected claim that somehow they are made "more efficient" by the infection. Signs of infection usually manifest themselves as: circular reasoning, repeated non sequiturs, intolerance of the non infected, passive aggressive behavior and sometimes violence towards others due to extreme repression of sexual behavior.
Unfortunately this virus is endemic in the human population (although animals are fortunately free of it despite often forming the center of religious fantasies and rituals) and is probably caused by a faulty human OS. Fortunately a very few humans are running an OS that is impervious to this virus, but they are in the extreme minority.
Remember, of all the things you can do in this world, Jehova/Yaweh, God or Allah will be EXTREMELY displeased with you if you masturbate. Out of all the things happening in the universe, "He" is always watching out in case your hand strays onto your genitals. (Raping 9 year old boys doesn't seem to bother "Him" as much, though).
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Defamation is free-speech.
So is religion, if your going to outlaw one you must surely outlaw the other.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
I forgot to add, religion is defamation of logic and reason. Which is why it would also have to be outlawed.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
That's so wrong. Most sensible countries either got rid of blasphemy laws or never had them. A religion is not a person, it cannot be offended or defamed.
This is just a way for Islamic nut jobs to protect their barbaric acts from justified criticism.
-- oldthinkers unbellyfeel ingsoc
Yeah, you've got to outlaw any and all critical comments about religion. Aside from the very touchy Muslims who view almost everything said by anybody else as an Insult to Islam that you must Now Die For, all these other religions who all claim to have God (Muslin == Allah) on their side and that the truth is with them are far too fragile to withstand any actual questioning. Except for Scientology, who fights back against the least bad word in the nastiest ways possible, and the Muslims who riot in the streets and end up killing each other because someone drew a cartoon of The Prophet halfway around the world, all these strong religions with both God and The Truth on their side as just way too fragile to stand up against the least little wind of discourse.
WE MUST DO THIS NOW! POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DEMANDS IT OF US!
In fact, in order to comply with this you've got to remove this post posthaste!
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Pakistan and other Islamic nation members have been consistently proposing this for years and years.
I really wished they would give it up. Religion is a choice that people make. And as such it should be open to criticism. It is really as simple as that. If yours is a true and good religion, it can withstand criticism... right?
A law outlawing free speech would crash and burn in the US.
Good troll though. =D
You mean like some sort of Act that brought Copyrights into the Digital Millenium?
Seriously guys, these are some of the member countries of the "UN Human Rights Council:"
Angola
Azerbaijan
China
Cuba
Egypt
Malaysia
Nicaragua
Nigeria
Pakistan
Russian Federation
Saudi Arabia
Real credible bunch, right?
And hey - if you can't laugh at religion (which is basically what these jokers are saying), then what can you laugh at?
I mean, we're talking about organizations that perpetrate the worldviews of animal sacrificing bronze age primitives as the final, absolute truth. Come on...
The UN helps keep the world stable.
This is exactly why the UN was founded. The UN exists to protect the post-world war 2 order. It comes out of the direct experience people had before and during world war 2. It is one of the pillars of defense against future wars between states.
The UN is the only place where all the world's countries have diplomats in the same place. It fosters dialoge and discourages conflict. It is the first and best place to diffuse tensions between countries quickly, and is the best place - truly neutral ground - for opposing countries to talk and avoid fights. Can you think of a more effective way to avoid inter-state wars than to encourage dialogue? Because our leaders who lived thorugh and fought ww2 could not. Given that we haven't had a major war since then, they continue to have more experience than us in these matters.
There are some things to criticize about the UN, but calling for an end to the UN because it does nothing for us is analogous to calling for an end to fire departments because all they've ever done is put out other people's fires.
The English word fart is one of the oldest words in the English vocabulary.
Now do you suppose I'll be modded down to troll if I say:
I, for one, welcome our new Muslim overlords.
Am I a racist, bigot, asshole? A promulgator of hatred... or am I just a dude trying to be funny while exercising his right to free speech?
There seems to be a large disconnect with speech and free in a goodly chunk of the world, particularly in nations where Islam is the dominant religion. But I guess the UN thinks I shouldn't be making remarks like that because that would be criticism.
Bibo Ergo Sum.
How do you outlaw hatred? How do you prosecute people for hating?
Isn't that what the Thought Police are for?
I believe that this resolution is aimed at least in part at secular attacks on religion. As Gandhi said, "first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
We atheists have been given the short shrift for a very long time now. First we were burned at the stake, then persecuted, and now we're gradually gaining mainstream acceptance now. We've gone from Bush the Elder claiming that atheists should be considered neither citizens nor patriots to Obama including non-believers in his inauguration speech. Perhaps in my lifetime, it'll be politically feasible for an atheist to hold an elected office.
It's no wonder that the religious old guard is running scared.
Does this mean I can't criticize the scientologists any more? Oh I forgot. I already can't. But even so, I think the point is valid. In the UK, we have a member of Parliament who claims his religion is "Jedi". Will it be illegal to criticize him?
Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
in a 23-11 vote that urges member states to adopt laws outlawing criticism of religions
As a Christian, this is unnerving. Contrary to popular belief, Christianity has a long history of criticizing the religious status quo. It was a major aspect of Jesus' message.
Another dangerous aspect of it is when church and state are combined, criticizing state will be seen as the same as criticizing religion (and vice versa) thus allowing the state to commit more human rights violations.
The UN provides a forum to grandstand and debate meaningless resolutions, and that's incredibly valuable. Don't underestimate the role of posturing and politics in military violence. When countries can have their complaints heard by the world media they're less likely to use military threats to get attention. The last thing I want is the UN to have "teeth," I prefer it to remain a form of international family therapy.
I'm no expert on ancient law, but I am guessing that they didn't have anything on the books about statutory rape in those days.
While your point about him being an unsuitable role model is a reasonable matter of opinion.. calling the guy a rapist for having sex with a child is ill informed or flamebait.
That's right. We don't make laws like that here.
We do end runs around it in much more subtle ways.
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
Yes, there are too many PATRIOT's for that to happen.
May the Maths Be with you!
Time to send them home.
-jcr
I'm always surprised how few seem to share my idea that we need the U.N. more than ever.
If humanity is to thrive, at some point we will need a world order. Not...the frightening overseeing insidious world order we always hear about, but a governing world body that is based on Secular Humanism, Rational Thought, Reason based thinking & Transparancy.
The U.N. in it's current form proves only that one can have a great idea, and execute it poorly.
Now that we have the tools to spread rational thought and ideas and concepts to the far flung corners of the world, we should easily recognize the need to consolidate into one voice of reason. The United Nations could potentially do this while still representing our unique differences.
I believe this is the way governments are moving whether we like it or not-we simply cannot afford to ignore that fact that we live on the same planet, and it must be protected...almost as if we still need to prove to ourselves the VALUE of these things. We say to the contrary, but it's blatantly clear that we really doesn't know quite what to do with the insurmountable questions that religions present. This makes sense as we keep searching for answers to impossible questions just as after thousands of years, we continue to struggle with concepts like economics, nationalism, freedom,democracy & privacy, ecology, PEACE.
Sorry for ranting, really! But we need to stop being afraid. When that happens, all of the religious tomes will claim their rightful place on the bookshelf of humanity, right next to Mother Goose, and we can finally start asking ourselves WHY it is so hard to admit we have much to learn. When fear of the unknown no longer grips us we will pare down our incredibly long list of absurd belief systems-IE-Creationism just one example.
A united nations could help humanity to acknowledge our differences, embrace our uniqueness and agree to live peacefully. Think about it, whats the alternative? We could continue pointing all the fingers that we want, but we really only have ourselves, as humans,to blame.
Yes. And Pharohs married their sisters, ancient Spartan's were all pederasts and George Washington kept slaves.
Yep. And the thing is that you and I reject all of those practices. We recognise them as immoral nowadays.
However - and this is the crux of the matter as far as blasphemy laws go - Islamic teaching is that Mohammed is the ideal role model. Because he was a Prophet, he was ipso facto incapable of committing any but the most minor category of sin (see the thread on Turn to Islam that I linked to for a detailed explanation of how that works).
This is why Mohammed's personal life is - sadly - relevant to discussions about Islam today.
What if you said "Leviticus 20:13 is Hate Speech"? Is that hate speech?
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
So Catholicism rejects certain notions because they are "logically absurd", but it's OK with a virgin birth and a guy who was killed on a cross but miraculously arose a few days later?
Okaaaay.....
Just curious.
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
If a citizen of a country can stand in what amounts to the town square and criticize his/her government without fear of reprisal, it's a freedom-based society. If not, it's fear-based.
That depends, is the town square a duly designated free speech zone?
I appreciate your sentiment but I'm not convinced that these issues are always so black and white.
Besides, wasn't the whole premise of the UN originally to give countries an open forum to work out their problems without resorting to murdering each other? If there's anyone that the world's liberal democracies are going to disagree with it's probably going to be oppressive police states.
I wish I were as sure of anything as some people are of everything
Actually Israel has withdrew from Gaza a few years back. And btw, giving back to whom? The former landlords were the Egyptians. You don't see them screaming give it back..
In fact, there have been fundamentalist types who have been prosecuted for hate speech for simply posting anti-homosexual selections from the Bible. They'll just make a post like this: "Homosexuals should read Book of Whatever verse whatever which says [homosexuality is an abomination whatever, homosexuals will go to hell]."
That brings up the case that religious fanatics who label me 'infidel' or 'damned and dangerous' because I am a skeptical pantheist (or transgressive agnostic or whatever) are inciting hate against me, and against others with a contrary creed.
Not all evangelists are like that, mind you. But some fundies (islamist and christian varieties in particular) are definitely promoting hate of those who don't believe like they do. I wonder how that'll come out in the wash.
Damn those pesky terrorists
Stupid resolution, but let's hold the Muslim countries to it, and make sure they don't say anything bad about Christians or Jews (or Hindus, ...), and that they make sure non-Muslims are never hurt in any way due to their religion.
Why would it be out? You can go to what amounts to the town square and badmouth the government. You can bad mouth the government anywhere you want. You just can't take someone's else' rights or property to do so. Your probably thinking of the free speech zones which isn't applicable to what was mentioned. Your right to free speech does not trump any rights I or some politician might have and it certainly doesn't trump other people's rights to free speech. The right of free speech allows you to say things without fear of reprisal from the government, it doesn't give you a venue or an audience which is about all the complaints over the speech zones seem to protest.
What nonsense.
"Communal" resources don't need "regulating" to prevent "abuse". We use this little institution called 'private property rights', but that's not arbitrary prior-constraint case-by-case regulation, but LAWS.
Rights 'granted' by governments? Frankly...
Read about natural law and the American Revolution.
Send your spendthrift head of state this
...and breath deeply into a paper bag.
I've read a lot of comments here along the lines of this is a heinous violation of my rights and the UN should be disbanded/whipped/shot, etc. What most people seem to have missed is this is not LAW, it's a RESOLUTION and is in no way binding to anyone. All it does is to encourage member countries to pass a law as described. Any country that would be swayed by this most likely already has such a law in place. The rest of us will just ignore it.
I call "dibs" for the "ownership" of the "atmosphere"! And while I'm at it, the "Atlantic Ocean" might also "be" a worthwhile "investment".
Oh, and I'm also "patenting" the "gratuitous" use of "quote marks".
Seriously, Tragedy of the commons shouldn't be that hard to understand.
Rights are enforced by the governments. You might have a natural right to free speech, but that doesn't matter unless someone prevents me from gagging you.
American Revolution kinda reinforces this point: despite the declarations of Natural Law, the very people who made them still kept slaves, because no one forced them to set them free. Slaves remained slaves until the government enforced their civil/human rights and forced the slave-owners to set them free. So, for all practical purposes, the government granted them freedom.
Natural Law is simply a basis for granting rights, but make no mistake: you only have the rights either you or someone else is willing and capable of enforcing. Since the government is the primary power center by definition, that means that you have the rights your government grants you.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Wow, using reality against a lefty, who is secretly sympathetic to banning free speech. I suppose you even think it's going to work.
Ever noticed how "postmodern" lefties and academics deny even reason and maths itself, when it suits their purposes ? Do you seriously expect them to care about reality ?
"We can't KNOW reality, man !"
(which is their mind translating the thought "I'm right and don't care about your problems" into acceptable words).
If we don't fight (and that means killing when necessary) for free speech, we'll lose it, even in the US itself.
Seriously, Tragedy of the commons shouldn't be that hard to understand.
It isn't, and I do understand it. But you must know that the tragedy of the commons is a result of LACK of private property rights.
Of course, privatizing the atmosphere or the ocean is a bit too big of a problem to tackle. But rivers or lakes are totally feasible. With a sufficiently sophisticated in tort law, rivers could be split into smaller segments for sale and upstream pollution would be liable for damages under property law.
And I really 'appreciated' you 'poking' fun at me on the 'quote mark' "'patent' 'thing'". :-)
Rights are enforced by the governments. You might have a natural right to free speech, but that doesn't matter unless someone prevents me from gagging you.
American Revolution kinda reinforces this point: despite the declarations of Natural Law, the very people who made them still kept slaves, because no one forced them to set them free. Slaves remained slaves until the government enforced their civil/human rights and forced the slave-owners to set them free. So, for all practical purposes, the government granted them freedom.
Natural Law is simply a basis for granting rights, but make no mistake: you only have the rights either you or someone else is willing and capable of enforcing. Since the government is the primary power center by definition, that means that you have the rights your government grants you.
Natural law states that we are endowed with certain rights. People institute a government to PROTECT these rights that we already possessed before government came into being. Its very important not to get that backwards. Might is not right.
With that in mind, you should really have a closer examination on your 'government as the primary power center' definition though. If a government is created by sovereign individuals to protect their own independence, what does it say to a government's legitimacy once their power is shifted from creator to the creature?
You are absolutely right that all rights presuppose the individuals capacity to defend them. That's why the 2nd Amendment is in the Constitution. The Founders realized that even a government instituted to protect a set of rights might in the future become the biggest threat to them, so they made sure there was a means of defense to people in such a shitty situation.
Send your spendthrift head of state this
Of course, privatizing the atmosphere or the ocean is a bit too big of a problem to tackle. But rivers or lakes are totally feasible.
Ah, but they're not too big a problem to handle if you treat them as commons.
Also, while taking private property to extremes might solve many problems if we're all wise and all value things equally, that's a big "if". What if I want to do something on my property that will affect something that you value, but that the legal system does not protect? Say I'm upwind of you. What if I don't like deodorant? What if I want to fart? Or smoke? Or have a campfire? Or burn tires? Or burn oil? Or burn coal? ...
Ownership of something that you didn't create is patently ludicrous! "That's MY tree": what did you do to deserve a tree? What does it mean to own something that simply exists? For that matter, whom do you sue if "your" tree dies due to human-induced climate change? And since trees are crucial to the health of the world (cleaning air, preventing topsoil loss, creating topsoil, making oxygen, sequestering carbon, habitat for animals that probably don't respect your notions of property, .....) trees are commons. This goes back to being a complicated problem to solve if everything is privately owned.
Is that your elephant? It spends time on the land owned by hundreds of people. Who owns the ivory in its tusks? Is that your bat? It kills mosquitoes on my lawn--if you kill it, I suffer.
Is that your gorilla? Here's something that is damn near as intelligent as your average Christian, but it has no interest in owning private property--does that mean that it is owned? How is owning any sentient being not slavery? Who gets to decide whether a lobster is sentient?
Also, who gave you the tree? In a free society I can cut down any tree I want. Do you want to take away my freedom?
What about children? If property is inherited, then we are not equal--we start out owning as much as our parents did, which should rub in how ridiculous that system is in a society in which we are "equal". If property is not inherited, what happens when the owner dies? Who gets the proceeds from the sale?
An understanding of the complex interactions in the biosphere tends to destroy faith in private property. Perhaps this is why I've never met a libertarian ecologist.
Natural law states that we are endowed with certain rights. People institute a government to PROTECT these rights that we already possessed before government came into being.
What is the scientific basis for natural law? Can it be measured? Natural law is simply a good (not perfect) set of rules with an overblown name. If rights are innate, then why do you and I disagree on what they are? Moreover, why do they so frequently get trampled? Prove to me that they are a part of nature. Then you can tell me which of the many versions is correct.
"The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
Hitler, the right ? Excuse me ?
Hitler was for old values, personal responsability and letting the market sort out everything ?
I must be misinformed, have very very bad history books and knowledge then. They say he tried to eradicate religion, destroyed personal responsability and let the state interfere in everyone's lives and forced every company's management to do thing his way ... which included not firing anyone, well except those evil jews.
Yes Hitler was "to the right" of Stalin. He was also far to the left of Castro.
BTW: I'm no fool. There are evil right-leaning dictators in this world. There are even quite a few of them. Hitler, however, was not one of them. The national socialists were, you guessed it, socialists. And let's face it, liberal politics meshes a whole lot less well with totalitarianism than lefty utopias.
But of course, Hitler was racist. As we all know, no-one on the left is racist (this cartoon "graced" the covers of half the lefty newpapers of America).
And of course, describing any difference at all between ideologies is so very, very wrong. After all, lefty blogs say the pope teaches his children the same things. Oh wait Jew-hatred ! Her parents must be right-wing fascists ... In New York that must mean they vote ... democrat ? Overwhelmingly democrat ? Surely you're wrong. Jew haters don't vote to the left ...
--
-1000 Uncomfortable truth
Man, sorry, but you were a bit all over the place in your first paragraph. I'll try to stick to the private-property-as-solution-to-tragedy-of-the-commons-theme.
Ah, but they're not too big a problem to handle if you treat them as commons.
Also, while taking private property to extremes might solve many problems if we're all wise and all value things equally, that's a big "if". What if I want to do something on my property that will affect something that you value, but that the legal system does not protect? Say I'm upwind of you. What if I don't like deodorant? What if I want to fart? Or smoke? Or have a campfire? Or burn tires? Or burn oil? Or burn coal? ...
Private property laws should protect the physical integrity of property. So if you have a campfire, fart, stink I would probably have to put up with it or buy an air purifier, unless your fart, due to a poisonous rare component, was causing actual harm to people within my property. Burning coal without a scrubber would cover my property with black soot. That would certainly get you sued.
Ownership of something that you didn't create is patently ludicrous! "That's MY tree": what did you do to deserve a tree? What does it mean to own something that simply exists? For that matter, whom do you sue if "your" tree dies due to human-induced climate change? And since trees are crucial to the health of the world (cleaning air, preventing topsoil loss, creating topsoil, making oxygen, sequestering carbon, habitat for animals that probably don't respect your notions of property, .....) trees are commons. This goes back to being a complicated problem to solve if everything is privately owned.
Is that your elephant? It spends time on the land owned by hundreds of people. Who owns the ivory in its tusks? Is that your bat? It kills mosquitoes on my lawn--if you kill it, I suffer.
Is that your gorilla? Here's something that is damn near as intelligent as your average Christian, but it has no interest in owning private property--does that mean that it is owned? How is owning any sentient being not slavery? Who gets to decide whether a lobster is sentient?
Also, who gave you the tree? In a free society I can cut down any tree I want. Do you want to take away my freedom?
I don't think it is. Most of the things I own I did not create. Your argument taken to its logical conclusion is quite ludicrous though. It would mean complete personal autarky. No more division of labor.
About the elephants and bats... fences have already been invented and private property rights do not protect the VALUE of property, but simply its physical integrity. If you own a house in the middle of nowhere and it's worth 100k, I buy a parcel of land next to it and build a 100 apartment skyscraper and your house is now worth 10k you can't sue me because you 'suffered'. I didn't infringe your rights, since there is no right to 'stable or rising property values'.
I really don't know how to answer the gorilla and lobster parts. I don't like eating lobster, for all that's worth. Shrimp, on the other hand... :-)
And, I don't know where you got that, but you have no right to cut down trees, as carrying a hatched while trespassing into someone's property will teach you.
What about children? If property is inherited, then we are not equal--we start out owning as much as our parents did, which should rub in how ridiculous that system is in a society in which we are "equal". If property is not inherited, what happens when the owner dies? Who gets the proceeds from the sale?
We can never be equal, we are all different. What we can do is recognize the same common rights to everyone, so at least someone with the misfortune of being born into poverty or shitty parents has the opportunity to rise as high as his innate talents ( and luck, of course ) can take him. If my parents give the
Send your spendthrift head of state this
But much of what the Arab nations do is pure anti-semitism, not in any meaningful sense related to Zionism. For example, republishing the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (one of the best-selling books in many Arab countries) is not related to Zionism.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10