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Paper Companies' Windfall of Unintended Consequences

Jamie found a post on ScienceBlogs that serves as a stark example of the law of unintended consequences, as well as the ability of private industry to game a system of laws to their advantage. It seems that large paper companies stand to reap as much as $8 billion this year by doing the opposite of what an alternative-fuel bill intended. Here is the article from The Nation with more details and a mild reaction from a Congressional staffer. "[T]he United States government stands to pay out as much as $8 billion this year to the ten largest paper companies.... even though the money comes from a transportation bill whose manifest intent was to reduce dependence on fossil fuel, paper mills are adding diesel fuel to a process that requires none in order to qualify for the tax credit. In other words, we are paying the industry — handsomely — to use more fossil fuel. 'Which is,' as a Goldman Sachs report archly noted, the 'opposite of what lawmakers likely had in mind when the tax credit was established.'"

68 of 284 comments (clear)

  1. lawmakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Incompetent lawmakers are incompetent.

    1. Re:lawmakers by RichardJenkins · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Precisely. We live in a society where 'corporate selection' fosters public companies who mindlessly take the action which most increases value for their shareholders. If a law is written such that it can be gamed - it will be.

      Lawmakers should take that into account and legislate around it; cause they sure ain't gonna change Corporate American Culture any time soon.

    2. Re:lawmakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Corporations in any country will do the same thing, those that do not will die. There are countries where they're legislated out of existence or they become the welfare provider for the state and never really do much good.

      Since /. going farther and farther left this is AC signing off.

    3. Re:lawmakers by mrcaseyj · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In the short term the solution for this is for the president to order the IRS to withhold these payouts until congress can close the loophole. If the paper companies sue, they would get laughed at or scolded by the judges as this is an obvious and evil perversion of the intent of the law.

    4. Re:lawmakers by WindBourne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You appear to be making the mistake of thinking that this was an accident. It may not be. The "gaming of the system" may actually be by the lawmaker.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    5. Re:lawmakers by RichardJenkins · · Score: 3, Funny

      Corporations and individuals are not free to pursue their own interests in whatever method they want - we create laws specifically to prevent that.

      Are you saying you want a type of anarchy where anyone can do whatever they want, and hope that acting in a way detrimental to society correlates with bankruptcy?

      I agree with what you say about having to make sure the "balance is positive" - but I think copious legislation should be applied to ensure that you can only have achieve this by benefiting society.

    6. Re:lawmakers by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Exactly, and in this case, they did just that : they pursued their own intrest the way the law forced them to, instead of the most profitable (and therefore, at least in this case, most environmentally friendly, way).

      In general, the cheapest way for factories is often the one using the least raw material, and therefore at least close to the most environmentally optimal way.

      but I think copious legislation should be applied to ensure that you can only have achieve this by benefiting society.

      You're assuming that laws always benefit society. I guess women should be glad they get stoned in muslim countries. After all, it benefits society, right ? That's what the law does. Of course, very nearly all muslim countries are, at best, third world countries, racist dictatorships or worse. Seems their laws are less than optimal ... for both society and the environment.

      But of course, "America is different !". Oh wait, not at all in this case. I guess that what happened here, totally in compliance with the law, and bad for BOTH society and the environment ... means nothing to you ?

      But this was in compliance with the law, and against market forces, so surely it must have been good for society and for the environment ... oops ...

      Why don't we look at the environmental situation in a country where "copious legislation", in fact as copious as it gets, was in force.

      And there we find ... chernobyl, in the soviet union.

      It seems to me your argument is flawed, both in theory and in practice.

      You see, you assume laws are in the intrest of society, which is a standpoint that's idiotic, to say the least. In fact, given the world's current situation, the less laws a society has, the better it does.

    7. Re:lawmakers by benjamindees · · Score: 5, Insightful

      we create laws specifically to prevent that.

      The only thing this law has prevented is papermills from using alternative fuels.

      Are you saying you want a type of anarchy

      The parent said nothing about anarchy. No need to erect strawmen.

      I think copious legislation should be applied

      Your "copious" legislation has already been applied. It is demonstrably counterproductive.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    8. Re:lawmakers by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yet too many idiots are trying to turn that into an argument for more legislation. I mean, you'd think they'd learn ...

    9. Re:lawmakers by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly, and in this case, they did just that : they pursued their own intrest the way the law forced them to, instead of the most profitable (and therefore, at least in this case, most environmentally friendly, way).

      Well, actually, in this case, the most profitable way was with the law. I'm not sure you entirely grasp what has happened here. Maybe you have and I'm just reading you wrong.

      The paper companies already produce about 70% of their energy by using byproducts in the process of making paper. Under the law, if they add just a few gallons of fuel to the process, claim the process requires Gasoline, Diesel fuel or Kerosene, they get 50 cents per gallon on the 70% of energy they already created with the black liquor or whatever it was called. If they used 100 units of energy divided up with 70 gallons of their byproduct and 30KW or whatever the equivalent is of coal powered electricity, then by removing one KW electricity and adding it to the byproduct, they now get 50 cents for those 70 gallons. So at least in this case, they are doing both- "the most profitable (and therefore, at least in this case, most environmentally friendly, way)" and the most profitable way the law made them.

      From the portion(s) of the law that I can tell, they don't have to add much more then one gallon of diesel to every batch of byproduct to qualify for the alternative fuel credit. The key point is in calling the process something else that requires Gasoline, Diesel fuel or Kerosene to get the credit for what they were already doing.

    10. Re:lawmakers by Ashriel · · Score: 5, Informative

      Doesn't matter. Precedent from the Supreme Court states that the IRS has sovereign immunity and cannot be sued on any issue within it's own domain.

    11. Re:lawmakers by Ashriel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The parent was suggesting as little government intervention as possible. What do you think anarchy is?

      Anarchy would be no government. Small government leads to a situation known as freedom.

      You want to know what a lack of sensible regulation and control gets you - look at the current financial troubles your country has caused.

      Actually the current situation is not as simple as that. While the bank failure can be immediately attributed to the repeal of the Glass Seagal Act (which, by the way, no one in legislation has bothered to reinstate), the real problems with the economy can be attributed to the creation of the Federal Reserve (putting banks in charge of the economy in the first place), and the dissolution of the gold standard (allowing the Fed to create as much money as it wants, without creating actual wealth to accompany it).

      Government involvement has done nothing but harm the economy since at least the 1920's, when anti-competitive legislation first began rearing up. It's only grown since then - we really do need less legislation: the people and the states will pull themselves out of this mess much more easily without the federal government mucking things up.

    12. Re:lawmakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If Libertarian philosophy = Anarchy, then:

      Democratic philosophy = Socialism, and
      Republican philosophy = Fascism.

      Given the alternatives, I'll accept anarchy.

    13. Re:lawmakers by yndrd1984 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I wish they had "-1 Libertarian" mod here...

      And I wish they had "+1 Libertarian" mod here....

      Well, as a libertarian would say, "to each his own".

    14. Re:lawmakers by kkissane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think copious legislation should be applied

      Your "copious" legislation has already been applied. It is demonstrably counterproductive.

      I cannot think of any instance where government is effective and efficient. What I have trouble wrapping my mind around is the call for more government when it seems to be counter productive. Repeating the same action over and over and over is not going to yield a different result.

    15. Re:lawmakers by rohan972 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You want to know what a lack of sensible regulation and control gets you - look at the current financial troubles your country has caused.

      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=community+reinvestment+act
      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=federal+reserve+act
      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fractional+reserve+lending
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_Mae The Federal National Mortgage Association (FNMA) (NYSE: FNM), commonly known as Fannie Mae, is a stockholder-owned corporation chartered by Congress in 1968 as a government sponsored enterprise
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mac The Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (FHLMC) (NYSE: FRE), known as Freddie Mac, is a government sponsored enterprise (GSE) of the United States federal government

      How strange it is to see a crash caused entirely by government intervention in the market continually touted as a "failure of capitalism" and blamed on a lack of regulation.

      Fractional reserve lending backed by government edict (whether you think it is a good idea or not) creates the situation where the ongoing money supply is dependent on peoples ability to repay loans. The Community Reinvestment Act required lending institutions to make loans that would ultimately not be repaid. How any of this could be seriously accepted as the result of a lack of regulation is one of the most outstanding achievements of propagandists of all time.

    16. Re:lawmakers by rohan972 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yet too many idiots are trying to turn that into an argument for more legislation. I mean, you'd think they'd learn ...

      No, they want to be looked after, including having their thinking done for them.

    17. Re:lawmakers by cwilli01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not perverted; nor is it malfeasant. If you had a more fuel efficient form of transportation, say a bike or motorcycle, or your feet, and bought a new car eligible for a tax credit, and accepted the tax credit, you'd be doing the same thing. I'd be less interested in this and more interested in illuminating the *intended* tax breaks that we perceive as unethical. Congress needs some sunlight (and a good disinfectant).

    18. Re:lawmakers by Volante3192 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except in our case, the cost of getting the car would exceed the benefit of getting the credit.

      What the paper companies have is a benefit of the credit outweighing the initial cost to pull it off.

    19. Re:lawmakers by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...to each his own

      From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

      Apparently the paper companies need 8 billion dollars and the government has the ability to pay it. :-P

    20. Re:lawmakers by jbengt · · Score: 3, Informative

      I won't argue with your distaste of the Federal Reserve, Fannie May, or Freddie Mac, but I want to make a few points about regulation and government intervention.

      The great majority of sub-prime loans made were not made under The Community Reinvestment Act.
      The sub-prime loans made under the Community Reinvestment Act have a lower default rate than those made outside of its' purview

      Too much regulation did not cause Fannie May, Freddie Mac, and others to overvalue their portfolios.
      Too much regulation did not cause the ratings companies to give the securitized mortgages high ratings greatly understating their risk.

      Too much regulation did not create the credit default swaps without enough reserve to pay them off in case of a bad economy, nor did it cause the companies selling those to insure their credit default swaps with more credit default swaps from another company that also did not have enough reserve to pay them off.
      Too much regulation did not cause the ratings companies to rate the companies holding credit default swaps with insufficient backing AAA even though they could not pay off their obligations in case of default.

    21. Re:lawmakers by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the short term the solution for this is for the president to order the IRS to withhold these payouts until congress can close the loophole. If the paper companies sue, they would get laughed at or scolded by the judges as this is an obvious and evil perversion of the intent of the law.

      Alas, we live in a nation where rule of law is paramount.

      The letter of the law is what the law is, not the "intent" of the law.

      Which means it would be illegal to withhold payments specified by law, and any lawsuit challenging such an act would likely succeed, with penalties.

      In other words, you're stuck with the law as written until someone changes it. The government trying to game the law by not obeying it is, if anything, worse than some corporation gaming it by taking advantage of something not foreseen by the lawmakers.

      After all, if the government can choose to not obey this law that you dislike, what's to prevent them from disobeying a law you like?

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    22. Re:lawmakers by Brickwall · · Score: 2
      From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

      Um, isn't this the classic definition of communism? And isn't it a travesty that in a supposedly free market economy, the government enacts legislation that allows firms to act in (their own self interest) in overtly perverted ways? Just askin..

      --
      What was once true, is no longer so
    23. Re:lawmakers by geekboy642 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your assertion is:
      The government ordered lenders to loan to people with bad credit ratings, no stable income sufficient to repay, and without any deposit.
      This is prima facie false. Unscrupulous and unethical lenders began issuing loans to people manifestly unable to handle the repayment. They did this to make money. They did this because of the republican-championed deregulation efforts. Regulations would have prevented the massive numbers of foreclosed mortgages, because the people being foreclosed on would never have taken a mortgage. The resulting death-spiral of the world economy wouldn't have occurred, and the people who normally could afford the sensible mortgage they'd taken wouldn't have lost their jobs and joined the ranks of the homeless.
      Further, you claim that the root cause of all this is a common-sense accounting rule. Over a year ago, former FDIC chair William Isaac championed this idea. This is nonsense. The root cause is the banks foolishly dabbling in unstable mortgages to make a quick buck. It doesn't matter what accounting method you use, if you invest heavily in any high-risk market, you stand a chance to lose your money. It doesn't even take Econ101 to know that.

      --
      Just another "DOJ fascist authoritarian totalitarian bootlicker" -- Zeio
    24. Re:lawmakers by Ashriel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Precious metals are the obvious choice but the global supply of them does not grow at the rate the economy usually does, which is a problem.

      I would argue that the real economy does not grow much at all, only that living standards get continually better through advance of technology, and that the inflated economy we see today is a result of profit from a position of debt.

      Ultimately, IANAE (Economist), and I don't have a great answer for you, other than many economists from the Austrian school of thought believe in a return to commodity-backed money, and the economists from the Keynes school of thought have got us into this mess in the first place and ought to be duly ignored.

    25. Re:lawmakers by HangingChad · · Score: 2, Informative

      Incompetent lawmakers are incompetent.

      As someone who has been a regulator, that attitude is, quite frankly, ignorant. Lawmakers are politicians, with that associated baggage, but in most case are neither incompetent nor ignorant. And most of the time, surprisingly, they come out with well-intended and thoughtful legislation. Not always, but much of the time. What they can get past industry lobbyists trying to help write the legislation.

      Once they cross that hurdle the laws go to the appropriate regulatory agencies where industry gets another bite at the political apple by pressuring legislators to encourage the regulators to implement the regulations in the most industry-favorable manner possible.

      If by some miracle of decency, a regulation gets past all that pressure, then industry will hire consultants to analyze the regulations and then start playing the Consistent Application Game. Where consultants will offer a weak solution and demand regulators tell them what they have to do to be in compliance. Always aiming for the absolute minimum and constantly coming back with, "Can we do this?" and "Can we do that instead?" They'll go from department to department trying to find a more favorable interpretation. When they find it, they'll circulate that out to everyone and all of a sudden the lower compliance standard is suddenly the new norm. They'll stall, drag their feet, file spurious court actions which they know states and municipalities are ill-equipped to fight. And, they'll find loopholes, or imagine loopholes, and wait until the regulatory agency gets a judgment that they're wrong maybe three or four years later, at which time they go back and start saying big fines will cost the state jobs and the money would be better spent on compliance. Even if they lose, they'll start trying wiggle out of any real responsibility.

      Because, right now, there's no real downside for them getting silly trying to game the system. If there was say, jail time for the execs, that would clear up the silly business pretty fast. Short of that, what I'm describing is the reality of the regulatory environment at the state and federal level. Throw in a few genuinely corrupt politicians in the pocket of those same industries who calls and regularly rips on the agency head and you have a tough job enforcing the simplest of regulations.

      But how would you know that when you don't have to reach any farther than your butt for conventional wisdom?

      --
      That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    26. Re:lawmakers by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How is it ex post facto to close a tax loophole?

    27. Re:lawmakers by canadian_right · · Score: 3, Informative

      This "loophole" has existed and been blatantly abused for many, many years. These paper mills are not even close to the worse abusers. The worst one I heard about, and this was years ago, was factories that sprayed a light mist of diesel on coal to claim this tax credit.

      This tax credit should just be ended, not fixed.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    28. Re:lawmakers by similar_name · · Score: 2, Interesting

      and the dissolution of the gold standard

      How does basing money on rocks change anything? Money just provides a means to trade. If we want to base it on something of intrinsic value, I would suggest energy over shiny rocks.

    29. Re:lawmakers by jc42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the paper companies sue, they would get laughed at or scolded by the judges as this is an obvious and evil perversion of the intent of the law.

      Quite possibly it was written with exactly that intent. We've been often reminded by nearly everyone studying Congress that most proposed laws aren't written by the legislators at all; they're usually written by "consultants" who are part of the lobbying setup and are paid by the corporations interested in the laws. It has come out repeatedly that most members of Congress haven't even read the laws that they vote on. They usually have only read the summaries, which are written for public PR.

      So it's quite likely that whoever worked out the exact wording of the law was in the pay of one or more companies who wanted exactly what the story is about. They probably discussed it behind the scenes, until they were fairly sure that the wording would allow their employers to take advantage of the law in this fashion.

      It's how things are done. And it's hardly any secret. It's been written about more times than we can probably count.

      (Actually, none of this precludes the possibility of a Congressman understanding the issue. The point is that usually they don't bother themselves over such details. That's for their underlings to handle.)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    30. Re:lawmakers by SEE · · Score: 2

      Actually, that was a different tax credit, the synfuels tax credit passed in the 1970s, not the new mixed-fuels tax credit.

      So, pick your scenario:

      1) The Congressmen who passed this new credit were ignorant of how the similar synfuels credit was exploited earlier this decade, despite broad publicity of the abuse (in, for example Time .
      2) The Congressmen who passed this new credit were aware of how it could be abused, but were too incompetent to put in safeguards against abuse.
      3) The Congressmen who passed this new credit were aware of how it could be abused, and intended it to be so abused.

    31. Re:lawmakers by nacturation · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Irrelevant! I am differentiating between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. You're a typical anti-corporate insect.

      Wow, I can see the froth.

      You object to applying the same argument against individuals. The principle is the same. How does the argument change if the Prius costs is less than the credit? Are the "previously bike-riding individuals" scumbags then?

      Well, let's take this scenario you propose then. For sake of argument, let's just say the Prius cost is $30,000 to drive it new off the lot with all taxes and fees included. Using your argument that the cost is less than the credit, let's say I would get a $35,000 credit for buying a Prius. Now, let's say that I buy a Prius for $30,000 and get the $35,000 credit, and then have the Prius compacted into a cube and sent to the landfill for a few hundred bucks. I've just made almost $5,000 and have polluted the environment even more. Further, let's say I just keep on doing this. After buying ten Priuses and throwing them into the landfill, I'm almost $50,000 ahead. Hell, I'd buy as many Priuses as I could if I would have a $5,000 profit from each one. They couldn't make enough of them.

      I would consider *myself* a scumbag if I did that.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
  2. The Michael Scott Paper Company by Mr.+Maestro · · Score: 2, Funny

    is all over this!

  3. Law from 2005 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    It wasn't mentioned in the summary, but the tax credit was passed in 2005. So no one thinks the $8 billion is related to stimulus packages passed more recently.

    No, those will cost us a lot more when companies figure out how to fraud them.

  4. Well, folks... by u38cg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...this is why centrally planned aconomies don't work.

    --
    [FUCK BETA]
    1. Re:Well, folks... by Ashriel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Capitalism seemed to work pretty well until we gave up on it early last century (it was just too damn hard for large companies to compete in an open market). We could always try that again.

    2. Re:Well, folks... by blahplusplus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This has nothing to do with central planning, this is clearly a case of abusing the law for gain.

      The two are NOT the same.

      Nor does is it evidence of your implied counterpoint that in a decentralized economy stupid economic or environmental decisions would not get made, they certainly would.

      There's a reason why we have laws in the first place, some days I wonder if anyone certain people on slashdot has read the history of corporate America and the things they used to get away with in a more decentralized economy because there was no authority whatsoever.

    3. Re:Well, folks... by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Funny

      Capitalism seemed to work pretty well until we gave up on it early last century

      Children worked 18 hours a day in coal mines and the liked it!

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    4. Re:Well, folks... by slashqwerty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      it was just too damn hard for large companies to compete in an open market

      Competition is the grand savior of capitalism. In an unregulated market large companies band together and form monopolies, eliminating competition altogether.

      Capitalism also makes the assumption that the consumer knows everything and consequently they can buy from companies that are good for the environment, treat their employees well, use non-toxic materials, etc. In reality, private companies are constantly covering up the shenanigans they pull.

      Also note competition pushes companies to drive down costs (good) but in the process they harm the environment, treat their employees like slaves, cut corners on product safety, etc. (all bad). These competing interests need to be balanced but due to the consumers' limited knowledge the market constantly shifts toward the most salient point--cost. The government needs to step in and establish standards to keep things balanced.

    5. Re:Well, folks... by tmosley · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think you are making a big mistake by saying that capitalism fosters those types of practices. You fail to take into account the legal system that exists in any developing democracy. Slavery is illegal, pollution is directly punishable by lawsuit (many polluters have been successfully punished this way), and toxic materials in products will bring similar lawsuits.

      There aren't any problems with capitalism. It is the most efficient, kindest, and most progressive economic system possible. Every singe "failing" either points back to the government, or to the admittedly messy transition from feudalism to capitalism. You have to understand that EVERY TIME the government "steps in", it produces numerous unintended consequences, and creates the opportunity for the various leeches and moochers (think AIG or any of the bailed out banks) to come in and take undeserved money from the taxpayers, or from the holders of dollars through inflation. It also creates an enormous bureaucracy that produces nothing, and only decreases the productive capacity of businesses, effectively stopping small start-ups from being competitive with big corporations. Why do you think we haven't had any new car companies emerge in this country in the last 50 years? Regulation. Why don't we have hundreds of choices when it comes to cell phone companies, like in Japan? Regulation. Why is it that most places in the US have only one choice when it comes to cable, or internet? Regulation. Why are there only two satellite television providers? Regulation. Why are so many radio stations owned by so few companies? Regulation. Why can't anyone open up a lottery in a state with a state lottery? State monopoly. Why can't an effective airline like Southwest fly to anywhere east of Dallas? Regulation spawned by favoratism.

      No human is smart enough to control the economy without creating opportunities for graft and/or elimination of competition. The Soviets, who had some of the smartest, best educated economists in the world, saw their economy fall apart as people stopped working hard. There was no incentive to produce, and great incentive to consume. Under such conditions, the only thing that can moderate people's behavior is force, and they thus had to resort to massive application of force, to the point that the place that was supposed to become a worker's paradise instead became a worker's inferno. Those who weren't afraid of government action against them did nothing, only pretending to work. Those who were afraid of government action against them were worked to death to cover for the loafers and moochers. The same is happening here, only this time it is in the shadows. The government steals our productive power by printing money and spending it, as though they had contributed something to the economy, basically compelling labor, giving the money to the banks, then forcing them to lend, increasing demand for goods. It also taxes us, such that there is an incentive to stay in a lower tax bracket, suppressing productive capacity. Thus far, foreigners have made up the difference by lending us money, and supplying us with goods while not consuming much themselves. That is ending though. This new corporatist communism has now led us to the brink of an abyss from which there is no easy escape. The government will try to stop it with more spending, more regulations, and more force, but those actions will do nothing to fix the situation, and will instead only make them worse. These United States will not survive the coming storm in their current form, just as the USSR did not survive their fall from superpower status. We will go from being the richest country in the world due to the very capitalist economic system you seem to hate so much, to one of the porest; a newly de-industrialized nation with power on par to that of Eastern European countries. We might be able to survive, but the era of American hegemony is fast coming to a close.

  5. It's only the Paper industry so far? by SunSpot505 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm just waiting to see how long it takes the banking industry to hop on board once they realize how much money they can make by producing all their sub-prime lending bailout paperwork on in-house paper with alternative fuel tax credits. Your tax dollars at work.

  6. Laws are used as written, not intended by corsec67 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is another example where the intention of the law doesn't mean anything, what is actually written and what that can be stretched to mean does.

    If a law is supposed to have a specific intention, then it should be written just for that.

    --
    If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
    1. Re:Laws are used as written, not intended by cjfs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is another example where the intention of the law doesn't mean anything, what is actually written and what that can be stretched to mean does.

      This is rather troublesome. If these situations continue our representatives may be forced to actually read the legislation they're passing.

    2. Re:Laws are used as written, not intended by amrik98 · · Score: 4, Funny

      This is another example where the intention of the law doesn't mean anything, what is actually written and what that can be stretched to mean does.

      This is rather troublesome. If these situations continue our representatives may be forced to actually read the legislation they're passing.

      Instead of thinking of the children?

    3. Re:Laws are used as written, not intended by jimicus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If a law is supposed to have a specific intention, then it should be written just for that.

      Don't count on that happening any time soon. I've made similar points with my local MP about badly-drafted laws a couple of times - the response is inevitably a "soothing" "I'm sure they won't use it for that".

      There have been cases recently where I have been proved correct. I wonder if I should write to my MP and say "Further to my letter of 1999, I told you so".

    4. Re:Laws are used as written, not intended by clarkkent09 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      *Ahem* this is the real world, intention and result ... don't match.

      Not if the intention was to give certain industry 8 billion dollars. Then the intention and the result match perfectly. Incompetence is only one of the major problems with the big government, corruption is another.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    5. Re:Laws are used as written, not intended by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem has nothing to do with intention. The problem is that the law was very badly written for every purpose. The law gives a $0.50 tax credit for every gallon of diesel mix used but the credit should have been based on some fraction of the price of diesel. The paper makers scam only works because the price of diesel has fallen so much.

      Indeed, if diesel and biofuel prices fell far enough we could all make money simply by burning gallons of it in our back yards: spend $0.40 on a gallon of mix; claim $0.50 from the IRS.

      If the law had been drafted by someone who wasn't retarded this situation would never have arisen.

    6. Re:Laws are used as written, not intended by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it's a mistake to assume that this law wasn't intended to have this effect. I'm not asserting that it does, but that kind of thinking can make you blind -- the kind where you assume things, I mean, not the paranoid part. The thing about government is that it creates beautiful opportunities to bone the people, so not being paranoid about government is insane.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Laws are used as written, not intended by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The real problem here is that the law is basically an attempt to circumvent the fundamental principals of the Constitution, which was written to limit the powers of the Federal government. The founders didn't trust government, and sought to mitigate the necessary evil of having a government at all by restricting it to some very specific powers.

      The 16th amendment gave the Feds all kinds of new power, so that's what they always use to try things like controlling behavior (a power they really shouldn't have). So whenever they pass a law offering a "tax credit", people sit around going "hmmm... how can we get some of that?" And why not? That's what people do. The more of your money goes to taxes, the greater the motivation to limit your liability or to have some benefit from government giveaways.

      Same thing with all government handouts. About 40% of the budget of Medicaid and Medicare is spent on fraud. 40%. Because if people can get something for free, they will. Some will find legal ways (like these paper companies), and others don't care whether it's legal or not (like people that commit Medicare and welfare fraud).

      So the real problem is $3.8 trillion of government spending. It attracts corruption, fraud, waste, opportunists, and everything else bad that people keep complaining about. And the 535 or so deciding how to spend that money aren't really very interested in being very diligent with it, because it's other people's money - so who cares about a few billion wasted here or there?

      Repeal the 16th amendment, institute very strict term limits, hold the Federal government to the Constitution, and these problems would go away.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
  7. Re:In general, sneakyness beats altruism by Norsefire · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the lawmakers find a hole they gain nothing. If they miss a hole they lose nothing.

    If companies miss a hole they gain nothing, if they find a hole they gain $8 billion.

    Guess which side is willing to devote more resources to poke holes in laws?

  8. Government interfearence screws up everything by pecosdave · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There is a limit to the amount of profit a car manufacturer on an individual car in the U.S. This only applies to basic passenger cars, not luxury cars or trucks. The answer? This is why the big 3 pushed trucks and SUV's so hard - which granted a large part of their customers wanted, but they largely ignored another large crowd that wanted small U.S. made economy cars. They produced crap instead, so we bought Japanese. Thank you Uncle Sam.

    Some Americans With Disabilities Act rules apply only to companies of certain size, as in number of employees. Compliance is incredibly expensive in many cases. Some companies put the brakes on at a certain number of employees due to the expense of compliance sentencing said companies to stagnate growth at a certain size giving their mega corporation competitors an upper hand. Thank You Uncle Sam. The same can be said of certain FDA regulations and any other regulatory agency you can name.

    My sister works for the Department of Agriculture. She writes checks to farmers to not grow crops.

    Here's an idea:
    KEEP THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT OUT OF IT

    Unless something really needs regulating, leave it the hell alone. Food? Fine we need an FDA to make sure our food isn't nasty and contaminated. They probably overstep their usefulness in some cases, and under step it in others, but that's expected.

    Yes, we do need an agency to keep track of Plutonium and Uranium. Just saying, yeah, track that.

    We need an EPA - but it needs to know it's place.

    ATF? We don't need that. It's a redundant agency originally created for tax purposes, not what they're doing now. It's also limiting freedom.

    No government regulation usually helps huge companies by keeping the small competitors down. Create an agency to regulate an industry, then the companies buy the candidates they want and put them in the regulatory committees. The little guys can't do that.

    --
    The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    1. Re:Government interfearence screws up everything by Samschnooks · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unless something really needs regulating, leave it the hell alone. Food? Fine we need an FDA to make sure our food isn't nasty and contaminated. They probably overstep their usefulness in some cases, and under step it in others, but that's expected.

      Unfortunately, industry will stick their noses in when regulations are being written. Wonder why the FDA doesn't have many warning about the mercury in Tuna whereas private consumer groups do?

      Let's just say, legally this would be considered hearsay, but it was said that the Tuna industry was literally looking over the FDA'a shoulder when those regs were written.

      So, even then, Government is too easily corrupted. Unfortunately, I don't have a better idea.

    2. Re:Government interfearence screws up everything by glgraca · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have a better ideia: keep the private sector out of government.

      If you look closer, you'll find it's the agricultural lobbies that have gotten these absurd incentives, not the government that decided out of thin air to grant them.

    3. Re:Government interfearence screws up everything by downix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Alright, let's get the government out of it.  Oh hey, that reminds me, be careful what you eat, because now there's no limit on the amount of rat feces that a company can put inside of your food.  And, with no government involvement, no way to find out either. Have a nice day.

      --
      Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    4. Re:Government interfearence screws up everything by pecosdave · · Score: 2, Informative

      You didn't actually read my post did you?

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    5. Re:Government interfearence screws up everything by mmalove · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "So, even then, Government is too easily corrupted. Unfortunately, I don't have a better idea."

      I do. You have to take the law back to principles, rather than specifics. Here's a few many of you are familiar with:

      THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
      THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.

      Therefore, undisclosed mercury in Tuna and defrauding an energy subsidy as a paper mill would be considered BREAKING THE LAW.

      While we're at it, I have another recommendation. Since waterboarding is simply "enhanced interrigation", I'd suggest it should be a viable questioning technique for these types of white collar crimes. I have a strange belief system where if someone elses' countrymen are trying to kill me, I can at least see they were raised and taught that way. When my OWN countryman are trying to kill me, they should be punished ten times worse.

      --
      You can get 15 minutes of fame, but you can go down in history for infamy.
    6. Re:Government interfearence screws up everything by downix · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I did, I intentionally pushed to the logical conclusion of "where do you draw the line".  You want food regulated, but what about silverware?  Got to make sure we don't see a return to mercury/lead for those, or the use of toxic plastics, but then we have plates, which leads us to..... you see the pattern?

      Now, I am with you in some respects, that the regulations are custom tailored to the corporate giants as/is, and that needs to stop.  I miss the days of the trust-busting, breaking up big business to give the little guy the shot at the top, Theodore Rooseveltites.  Now that was how to regulate.

      --
      Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    7. Re:Government interfearence screws up everything by rohan972 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I did, I intentionally pushed to the logical conclusion of "where do you draw the line". You want food regulated, but what about silverware? Got to make sure we don't see a return to mercury/lead for those, or the use of toxic plastics, but then we have plates, which leads us to..... you see the pattern?

      That's not necessarily the logical conclusion though. Free market theories require an informed customer. Requiring accurate and complete product information is a basic requirement of a free market, though more obvious now than when Adam Smith was around. Want to sell cans of Rat Faeces Stew? No problem, so long as you label it honestly. I don't anticipate a big market for it, but go for your life trying. Sell it labelled as beef, go to prison. Existing laws against fraud etc are enough for that situation if applied correctly.

    8. Re:Government interfearence screws up everything by Marcika · · Score: 2, Insightful

      THOU SHALT NOT KILL. THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.

      But you have to think like a lawyer, and ask how somebody could exploit the law. With your very vague laws, a rich bigot with well-paid lawyers could easily set precedent to outlaw abortion for rape victims, or to punish attempted suicide etc etc.

      Your second law could easily be used to jail copyright infringers... or those who aid and abet... etc etc... The law has become very specific -- especially criminal law -- in order to remove these ambiguities.

  9. So the next hole in teh road you hit.... by 3seas · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... call DOT and tell them to fill it with paper.....

  10. Re:In general, sneakyness beats altruism by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ever heard of corruption ?

    If the lawmakers find a hole they gain nothing. If they miss a hole they lose nothing.

    If companies miss a hole they gain nothing, if they find a hole they gain $8 billion.

    If lawmakers find a hole, they gain nothing. If they miss a hole, they get 2% of that $8 billion.

    There, fixed that for ya.

  11. Re:In general, sneakyness beats altruism by MPAB · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If a company misses a hole, the competitor that finds it instead gets the upper hand. If the hole is big enough, it could even outcompete the first one into oblivion by using the power of the state (and our taxes).

  12. Wait, this seems familiar... by dcmoebius · · Score: 3, Funny

    Does anyone else feel like this is an episode of "The Office"?

  13. Deregulation by qbzzt · · Score: 2, Informative

    You mean the kind of deregulation where a central entity whose management is appointed by the president determines the money supply and a lot of the interest rates?

    We haven't had deregulated banking since 1913. All we did was change one regulatory regime to another, which arguably allowed more abuse.

    --
    -- Support a free market in the field of government
  14. Shenanigans! by Brickwall · · Score: 2, Informative
    From TFA: "In developed nations, paper is the third-largest industrial greenhouse gas emitter, behind the steel and chemical industries."

    Oh, really? Not according to the US government. http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/emissions/usinventoryreport.html Paper doesn't even show up, and all of the "industrial" processes (as opposed to home heating, electricity generation, and transportation) make up less than 7% of US emissions, so paper-making is barely a roundoff error. I'm not arguing that the paper companies aren't taking advantage of a loophole, but to suggest that this is having any meaningful impact on emissions one way or the other is ludicrous.

    --
    What was once true, is no longer so
    1. Re:Shenanigans! by Protoslo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even if paper companies were the third largest greenhouse gas emitter, judging by TFA, an extremely large portion of that comes from the wood products they burn as 'black liquor.' They could be the largest emitter of greenhouse gasses in the world, and if the gasses all came from wood, it wouldn't really matter, because cutting down the same forest over and over to make paper has no long-term net effect on the amount of carbon in the atmosphere. The trees will be replaced; the carbon will be fixed again. Burning wood has a completely different effect from freeing the carbon fixed in the bowels of the earth for millions of years as coal or oil.

  15. Contact IP and voice your concern by frdmfghtr · · Score: 2, Informative

    This page is International Paper's feedback form. Tell them how you feel about this.

    In addition to that, let your Congressional representation know too--OK it's Congress, but it might help anyway.

    --
    Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
  16. Re:banana fucking republic by budgenator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But I seriously can't fucking believe, that after eight years of the incompetent fucking clowns in the Bush administration, that anyone has the brass balls to try to justify, let alone suggest, more retarded, illegal bravado from the executive branch. You are a complete dumbfuck, just like the tools who passed this law in 2005, and the tools who are currently skullfucking the concept of market economics for their ill-conceived political agenda.

    First of all;

    Congress's powers are enumerated in Section Eight:
            Section 8: The Congress shall have power
           

    To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    Article One of the United States Constitution

    because this is a tax credit, it's the bailiwicks of congress and the IRS works for congress not the executive branch, not he Bush administration! Remember what congress giveth, Congress can taketh away, so if you have a problem with this write your congress-critter. The problem you'll have is how do we write a law the disallows a credit for adding a taxable fuel so that taxable fuels with alternative fuels added are not?

    --
    Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds