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Microsoft Asks Open Source Not to Focus On Price

Microsoft's supposed open-source guru Sam Ramji has asked open-source vendors to focus on "value" instead of "cost" with respect to competition with Microsoft products. This is especially funny given the Redmond giant's recent "Apple Tax" message. "While I'm sure Ramji meant well, I'm equally certain that Microsoft would like nothing more than to not be reminded of how expensive its products can be compared with open-source solutions. After all, Microsoft was the company that turned the software industry on its head by introducing lower-cost solutions years ago to undermine the Unix businesses of IBM and Hewlett-Packard, and the database businesses of Oracle and IBM."

25 of 461 comments (clear)

  1. Focus on quality? by revjtanton · · Score: 5, Funny

    So he's asking people to get a recent Ubuntu build instead of Vista?

    1. Re:Focus on quality? by NeverVotedBush · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can say this weekend I helped my neighbor install SuSe 11.1 after their Windows partition quit working and they didn't have a backup of their legitimate Windows XP disc since it was only available on the hard drive.

      After we got it all set up, got the multimedia stuff from Pacman, added malware and tracking sites to the hosts file, installed No-Script, configured his firewall, and loaded his music so Amarok could play, and gave them a tour of all the stuff Linux could do right "out of the box" and without costing a single cent, all of the educational programs and games, etc, they were floored.

      They had a chance to explore yesterday and said they liked it so much better than Windows it wasn't funny. They regret not having switched before.

      The simple fact is that Linux really does work beautifully for most people's purposes and with all the applications available for it and included in the distros, I don't see how people aren't flocking to Linux in droves. Maybe the word just needs to get out. I know my neighbors are planning to tell all their family members about it.

    2. Re:Focus on quality? by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Funny

      The reality is that every operating system I've ever used can be a pain, and damned near every software package I've used has problems. I'm having consistent problems with one user using Office 2003, where I have to go in every few weeks and toast his Office registry keys. Nobody else has the problem. I've wanted to just kill his roaming profile, but he has panic attacks about that, so, dutifully every few weeks, I go into regedit and burn out that chunk of the registry. Another user seems to have problems with our login scripts, the printer mappings work fine, but the drive mappings never work. Again, I expect it's likely something in her profile, but considering how massive even the HKEY_CURRENT_USER hive is, I'll probably just wipe out her profile.

      And there's the difference. A lot of the time, the "solution" in Windows is start from scratch, whether it's a profile or the whole damned operating system. Only those guys who hire themselves out as "anti-virus/spyware cleaners" or whatever actually bugger around for three hours with various shitty packages weeding out the evil. For guys like me, we have slipstreamed installs and hard drive images, and just go "Fuck it" and reinstall Windows, because it just isn't worth the time and frustration to actually properly diagnose things.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Focus on quality? by muuh-gnu · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >They had a chance to explore yesterday and said they liked it so much better than Windows
      >it wasn't funny.

      I'll bet you forgot to tell them that a few months down the road he will have no way to install an up-to-date application unless he updates the whole system. And that he will have to update (aka reinstall) the whole system every few months, since thats the usual duration his applications officially are up to date.

      Free Software is usually nice and all, and I'm using it exclusively on my desktops, but inability to install newer or older software on "stable" distributions kills it for Windows converts. You really can not talk someone into linux with a calm conscience without warning him that his system is considered "obsolete" by application makers the moment its published and a new development cycle has begun, and that there will be no way to install any older versions he might be got used to.

  2. it is pretty funny by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 5, Funny

    and indicative of Microsoft's sense of entitlement.

    1. Re:it is pretty funny by not+already+in+use · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I always found the OSS crowd's sense of entitlement even more impressive.

      "Open source your software, then spend development time porting it to our platform so we can use it for free!"

      My favorite example is Chrome.

      "Companies should open source their code so the community can port it!"

      Google open sources Chrome.

      "Google doesn't care about Linux! They won't port their OPEN SOURCED code for us!"

      Google ports Chrome to Linux.

      "I'll stick with firefox until they release adblock for Chrome, thus circumventing their primary revenue stream!

      Step 4: Profit?

      Oh you guys are too funny...

      --
      Similes are like metaphors
    2. Re:it is pretty funny by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 5, Funny

      ah, seriously, /. must learn to separate one of MS employers opinion from the company's opinion.
      Now, I could say that the Linux community wants more don.net integration just because Icaza, one of the most active contributors to the Linuzz community advocates this on his blog.

      Of course if you want just another inflamatory article on /., just go on...

      Stop ruining our Microsoft bashing with sensible comments.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    3. Re:it is pretty funny by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I always found the OSS crowd's sense of entitlement even more impressive

      "Open source your software, then spend development time porting it to our platform so we can use it for free!"

      My favorite example is Chrome.

      You would have a much better point if your favorite example wasn't ~90% OSS to start with, such as WebKit.

  3. Synergies and Value Add Branding... by bodland · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...are more important. As is leveraging a new paradigm

  4. I can see the ads! by lordofthechia · · Score: 5, Funny

    This is Lauren. She told us she wanted a stable OS with an Office Suite and some photo editing software for $0. We told her, you find it, you keep it.

    --
    Georgia Tech, the leader in Chia(tm) technology.
  5. Re:Cost will fall flat... by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You can tell that most Microsoft apologists haven't had any sort of role in supporting or managing IT in business.

    Been there. Done that. Have the faded t-shirts to prove it.

    Although this isn't just about the fabled "business case".

    This is also about the bargain conscious consumer that might
    see various bits of commercial software and get a sudden case
    of sticker shock or try something that claims to be free but
    is really just an open door to malware and spam.

    This is about taking Microsoft's own marketing approach and turning it on them.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  6. Funny but true.... by xzvf · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Open source software is often the better option both on cost and quality. As a consultant, I've found that when you stand up open source and proprietary solutions side by side for a customer, the open source solution wins most of the time. Now ISV's prefer the kickbacks, training and marketing support they get from proprietary vendors, so the customer has to ask for the open solution to be compared, but when they do the results are significant.

    1. Re:Funny but true.... by cthulu_mt · · Score: 5, Funny

      but as value is roughly modeled as utility/cost

      If the Open Source solution costs $0.00 doesn't that lead to an undefined value in your equation?

      Managment is stupid but even they won't fall for non-real numbers.

      --
      Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
    2. Re:Funny but true.... by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 5, Informative
      • It's (more) cross-platform.
      • It uses ODF by default instead of as an addon, which works in most other Office Suites (KOffice)
      • Not dependant on a single organization for new features and bug fixes (go-oo fork)

      If you want support, you can get StarOffice for $80.

    3. Re:Funny but true.... by vlm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      how would OpenOffice be a better solution for a business customer if it doesn't come with any support for the employees?

      Closed source software support is basically either
      1) Read the help file or try it and see, so the user doesn't have to be able to read or think
      2) Third world script reader
      3) Real support is huge $$$$$$$

      So, overall, you get a better support experience using google and open source than script reader in india and MS office.

      Also, there is more to support than answering "how do I print?" ... Such as the enormous cost of security / virus / worms plus the enormous cost of licensing documentation plus BSA audits that are only relevant for closed source products.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    4. Re:Funny but true.... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's also important to add:

      • there is competition in providing commercial support

      Open office is included in RedHat, Oracle, Ubuntu and several other commercially supported systems. With MS Office, if you are unhappy with your support provider then you are stuck. With open office, you can shop around until you find the support you want. Right now getting full support might well cost a little more, but if that were true long term then more competition would enter the market and keep prices low. No such thing exists with MS Office where nobody but MS can actually fix problems.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    5. Re:Funny but true.... by zonky · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you buy a Symnantec product, you need Therapy, not support.

    6. Re:Funny but true.... by Burkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      but how would OpenOffice be a better solution for a business customer if it doesn't come with any support for the employees?

      Your employees need support to use a word processor and spreadsheet? I think your money would be better spent hiring component people over support contracts.

    7. Re:Funny but true.... by AnalPerfume · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I wasn't aware you could purchase MS Office at all, they sell you a license to use it under certain restrictions and conditions but you never own it, even if you do have a fancy box, manual and DVD. Have Microsoft changed their policies and sold their very first copy of MS Office while I wasn't looking?

  7. Dialog by marco.antonio.costa · · Score: 5, Funny

    Microsoft: Please compete with us on our terms??!?! Pretty please?!

    Open-source: No.

    --
    Send your spendthrift head of state this
  8. Re:Cost will fall flat... by PriceIke · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > Businesses are a lot more interested in the total value of something than its price tag.

    I'll go you one better: businesses, or more accurately, managers in charge of making major spending decisions, don't often understand the difference between value and cost.

    If a typical empty-suit gotta-wrap-this-by-2-so-I-can-get-to-the-golf-course middle manager looks at open source software (priced at $0) and then Microsoft software (priced in the thousands or tens of thousands, for company-wide use), he's probably going to make the decision in favor of Microsoft because if it doesn't cost anything, it must not be worth anything.

    Small business owners have always dealt with this mindset. If they want contracts from big companies they usually have to inflate their prices (even beyond what they would consider a fair profit margin) in order to even be considered as a potential vendor. This is especially true when trying to do work for governments or Universities.

    --
    It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
  9. The purchase price is NOT the "cost"... by mcrbids · · Score: 5, Insightful

    OSS software is a total boon to developers. I'm a developer, and we use OSS everywhere possible. Since we can easily support our software when something goes awry, we jump quickly and confidently.

    But not every company has their own staff of developers. Companies that don't produce software have little incentive to hire developers if they don't contribute significantly to the bottom line. And for companies in this boat, OSS does, indeed, have costs that far outstrip the purchase price.

    Windows Server licenses for needed servers might cost a grand or three. If this is sufficient to avoid the cost of hiring a developer (at around $100k/year) or an admin, (at ~ $60k/year) it's money very well spent!

    Sure, I use OSS because it lets me sleep very soundly at night, with perhaps 1 significant unplanned incident per year in our hosting cluster of 14 servers. But part of that is that we already have paid the price of having developers on hand to maintain and understand our OSS-based servers.

    And don't think that just because it's Microsoft, you can assume it's safe to laugh. I remember when MS Word was laughable. I remember when Windows was laughable. I remember when Excel was a toy compared to the "meat and potatoes" competition.

    As a corporate culture, Microsoft learns how to dominate markets. They're losing right now, and maybe they won't turn things around in time. But they have massive assetts, they still have a monopoly in the desktop computing marketplace, and with Vista, they've shown a willingness to take risks if they are necessary to improve their software.

    I know this is unpopular to state here on Slashdot, but many (most?) of the problems with Vista have been centered around making the changes necessary to more properly secure Windows. Software that was badly built that did bad things broke on Vista, and that's a necessary step to take in order to preserve their long term market share.

    Don't laugh. Keep your head down, keep improving the OSS software, and be wary of Microsoft - they still have everything it would take to continue to dominate.

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
  10. Warning: slanted article! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    That quote from Ramji was taken completely out of context. It takes a bit of digging, because the distortion is already present in TFA, but here is the blog post to which TFA "responds". Note especially:

    Due to the downturn in the economy, many business users are putting the kibosh on migrations to or from open source. [...] That's why Microsoft is advising open-source partners with whom the company is collaborating not to focus their customer pitches on costs, but instead to lead their sales pitches with "value," he said.

    (Emphasis mine.)

    Now this may certainly be bad and self-serving advice from Microsoft, but it is still very different from what TFA makes it out to be. Microsoft isn't begging OS vendors to change their sales pitches to something it can compete with. It's telling vendors how it thinks they should pitch in a time of economic difficulty.

    We now return you to your regularly-scheduled Microsoft bashing.

  11. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  12. Re:Cost, quality and... by Unoriginal_Nickname · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't know about you, but when someone asks for a change to one of my apps and I tell them "It's open source, make the change yourself," what I'm really saying is "**** off."

    If you're business this is only possible:

    - Assuming you have the budget for a development team.
    - And the time to become familiar with the code base before the feature is needed.
    - And a repository maintainer who is willing to accept your changes, or an even bigger team and budget to track security and bug fixes from the original developer and incorporate them into your modified code base.
    - And a silver tongue, so you can convince your investors that it's totally worthwhile to spend their money improving a product that anybody can use for free with absolutely no way to profit directly from the improvements you made to the software.

    Or if you're a home user, in which case you probably don't know C, and if you do you're probably too tired from writing C all day to fix someone's code for them.

    The ability to make contributions is far from the main benefit of open source software. The main benefit is the fact that someone can't shut it down for selfish reasons. The code is essentially in the public domain. Apache or MySQL will never enter a "vault" like The Lion King or Sleeping Beauty; the Linux kernel will never have its "support period" expire. The real benefit is social, rather than technological.