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The Pirate Bay Seeks Interesting Route To "Pay" Fine

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on from the crowd-sourced dept.

Drivintin is one of many who have written to tell us about how The Pirate Bay has taken an interesting approach to the 30 million SEK fine levied in their recent court case (which they said they wont pay). "The bill inspired anakata to devise a plan involving sending money to Danowsky's law firm, but not to pay the fine of course which they say will never be paid. Anakata's clever plan is called internet-avgift, internet-fee in English. Anakata encourages all Internet users to pay extremely small sums around 1 SEK (0.13 USD) to Danowsky's law firm, which represented the music companies at the Pirate Bay trial. The music companies will not benefit from this, instead it will cost them money to handle and process all the money."

29 of 545 comments (clear)

  1. Awesome by NerdyLove · · Score: 4, Informative

    So for winning the court case, they still have to pay. I approve.

    1. Re:Awesome by sopssa · · Score: 5, Informative

      The summary is incomplete here. They also asked users to request their payment to be reversed as 'false payment', and thats where the extra fees come from, as the swedish law firm is obligated to process them and send back to the payer.

    2. Re:Awesome by PJ1216 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just paying 1 SEK will cause extra fees for the firm once the 1000 free transactions for the account has been used up. After that, it costs 2 SEK to process the 1 SEK payment. Therefore, they lose 1 SEK every time you pay 1 SEK. The 'false payment' is a double whammy, but not required.

    3. Re:Awesome by praksys · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't know how the law works in Sweden, but in most English speaking countries fraud requires some element of misrepresentation and some means to benefit from that misrepresentation. You don't have either in this case.

    4. Re:Awesome by punkr0x · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not sure what the trial has to do with it

      Because according to the judge they are responsible for the actions of others who used their website to trade copyrighted files.

    5. Re:Awesome by saleenS281 · · Score: 3, Informative

      If they allow you to pay by credit card, it's costing them money. There's a minimum service fee to accept a credit card payment, and I can pretty much guarantee it's more than .13.

    6. Re:Awesome by supernova_hq · · Score: 4, Informative

      fraud

      n. the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right.

      Fraud

      Wikipedia is great and all, but please don't use it for legal advice...

    7. Re:Awesome by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 3, Informative

      If they allow you to pay by credit card, it's costing them money. There's a minimum service fee to accept a credit card payment, and I can pretty much guarantee it's more than .13.

      There's no minimum charge (that would be against Visa/MC regs) ; and whether or not there's a minimum service fee depends on which merchant bank they're using.

    8. Re:Awesome by digitalunity · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's fraud in the US if you do it for gain. Example: You go to Walmart, buy a TV and call your credit card company telling them the TV was broken and walmart wouldn't take it back. They would do a chargeback on Walmart and that would constitute fraud.

      It's not quite that simple in this case. If you contribute 1 SEK towards TPB's fine and then have to ask for it back later when(if) a retrial finds them innocent, that's hardly fraud. Not sure if it will work the way they're expecting though.

      I know in the US, my understanding(IANAL) is that retailers are only required to accept $50 in coins for any debt. Sweden may have similar laws precluding this law firm from being required to accept payments below a certain amount.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    9. Re:Awesome by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

      Copyrights were a CONTRACT, nothing more. In return for a LIMITED copyright We, The People got a richer Public Domain.

      This is an American-centric view on copyright. It may well be true in the U.S., but in Europe, it's called Authors' rights, and those are viewed more as inherent rights of the author towards his creations, and not as a public contract.

    10. Re:Awesome by Anarchduke · · Score: 2, Informative

      Exactly. I have a savings account, and if I make more than 6 withdrawals from that account in a quarter, I have to pay a fee for each additional withdrawal of my money from my account.

      The law firm in question has an account where the first 1000 transactions are covered. Then, because of the cost to the bank, the law firm pays for each additional transaction.

      There is no fraud or bad faith. If I were to to pay 1 penny to the law firm, it has nothing to do with me how they and their bank deal with that transaction. Their agreement with each other doesn't involve me at all. If I were to send them 1 million 1 penny payments, its not my problem if that ends up costing them 10 or 20 million in processing fees.

      And that sort of out of the box thinking is why I think I love the pirate bay guys.

      --
      who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
  2. 30 million SEK by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 3, Informative

    Nearly 4 million USD.

  3. mirror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    mirror

  4. Re:Something doesn't quite make sense, here... by Burkin · · Score: 4, Informative

    Come again? Anyone who wants to "punish" me by sending me 13 cents, by all means feel free.

    If 30 million people each pay one Sek, how does that not pay the fine? And does Sweden not have some sort of teeth to their court-imposed penalties whereby simply not paying means people go to jail?

    There are these things called processing fees. The point is to send them an amount that is less than the amount it takes the process the incoming amounts and as such they use money on each transaction. This is pretty standard for services like Paypal or other internet money transfers.

  5. internet-avgift by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    This is the site you are interested in: http://internetavgift.se/

    The javascript is horrible.

  6. Re:That's an interesting way to bankrupt a company by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Informative

    Depending on the law in your jurisdiction, you might be obligated. At least in the US, businesses aren't obligated to sell you goods or services for legal tender if they don't feel like it; but creditors are obligated to accept legal tender as payment for debts.

    "The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues.""

    TPB are, obviously, not in the US and the law may well be different and paying in the equivalent of pennies might fall under some sort of "court's discretion to smack down raging assholes" provision.

  7. text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Pirate Bay Founder Devises DDo$ Attack

    Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Svartholm (aka anakata) recieved a bill for the 30 million SEK that he, along with Peter Sunde (aka brokep), Fredrik Neij (aka TiAMO), and Carl Lundstrom, was fined in the verdict of the Pirate Bay trial just over three weeks ago. The bill inspired anakata to devise a plan involving sending money to Danowskyâ(TM)s law firm, but not to pay the fine of course which they say will never be payed. Anakataâ(TM)s clever plan is called internet-avgift, internet-fee in English. Anakata encourages all Internet users to pay extremely small sums around 1 SEK (0.13 USD) to Danowskyâ(TM)s law firm, which represented the music companies at the Pirate Bay trial. The music companies will not benefit from this, instead it will cost them money to handle and process all the money.

    The plan can be called a Distributed Denial of Dollars attack (DDo$). The plan is an away-from-keyboard DDoS attack. DDoS attacks involve lots of users overloading the victim with internet traffic damaging their ability to provide services. Money, instead of Internet traffic is used in this case. The victim is Danowskyâ(TM)s law firm which represented the IFPI at the Pirate Bay trial.

    A friend of anakata told Blog Pirate that the bank account to which the payments are directed has only 1000 free transfers, after which any transfers have a surcharge of 2 SEK for the account holder. Any internet-fee payments made after the first 1000, which includes the law firmâ(TM)s ordinary transfers, will instead of giving 1 SEK, cost 1 SEK to the law firm. Since Danowsky & Partners AdvokatbyrÃ¥ is a small firm, all the transactions are handled by hand. Handling all payments will be time consuming, costing the law firm in productivity. Maybe it will even affect their success in other cases.

    Make direct payments to
    Danowsky & Partners Advokatbyrå KB. Plusgiro 79 31 21-5.

    Additionally if after paying the internet-fee you determine that your payment was erroneous, Swedish law states that you can request the money back, putting an additional load on Danowskyâ(TM)s law firm.

    Since the Pirate Bay crew was provided with such clear, logical, and well explained methods for calculating the damages in the trial, an explanation on how the internet-fee was calculated is provided. Use the formula below, substituting anything anywhere, to check that the internet-fee really is 1 SEK.formel

    [MATH DIAGRAM GOES HERE]

    The name internet-avgift, as well as the layout of the site is based on tv-avgift and they layout of its site. Radiojanst, a state owned company, is responsible for collecting TV license fees in Sweden.

    1. Re:text by sub67 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I believe the idea here is to make the payment for them and in the event that TPB was found to not be liable for the damages, everybody that paid will be able to retract their payment at the processing expense of the law firm. Not simply pay and ask for your money back. I could be wrong and it could be THAT exploitable, but that's how I understood it at least.

    2. Re:text by gibson_81 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It IS that exploitable, I once paid a bill twice and a few weeks later I received a cash order for the amount I paid (once). I'm not sure if the lawyer's firm has these routines, but most big companies in Sweden will keep track of bills paid and if they receive payment with an ID that's already paid (OCR-nubmer, as it's called in Swedish), they will send a cash order for the amount.

  8. How it Works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    You should really read either TFA, or a better explanation at torrentfreak: http://torrentfreak.com/music-industrys-plea-for-pirate-bay-damages-backfires-090510/

    Basically what is ahppenning here is that low amounts of money are ebing sent to thsi law firm, and then they are requested back as a "wrong payment" - meaning that the firm still needs to collect them, accoutn for them, process them, and then mail them back. This is required by Swedish law. In fact, no one will lose a single cent, except the companies in processing fees :)

  9. I know where they had the idaea from by hubert.lepicki · · Score: 5, Informative

    There is that priest-radical in Poland, who is known as Father Rydzyk, and all young people hate him and his movement. So they decided support him by sending 0.01 PLN (about 0.003 USD) each. Lots of students did just that, each one paying 0.01 PLN.

    The case was that Father Rydzyk's movement was having special deal with banks, that they were paying all fees for incoming money. So, for each 0.01 PLN paid in, they had to pay about 1 USD - now this where Swedish guys had the idea from!

  10. Re:As seen on right here... by Burkin · · Score: 5, Informative

    He wasn't just a member he was on the board of directors of one of the copyright lobby groups.

  11. Re:Paying in Pennies by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 3, Informative

    have you ever seen an apartment that accepts online payments

    Yes

  12. Re:Dumb Idea by LordKazan · · Score: 1, Informative

    the bank has every reason to play along... it costs them less than they charge the law firm. all those transactions are a profit for all the processors who's networks are touched by the EFT

    (i work in the EFT industry)

    --
    If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
  13. Re:That's an interesting way to bankrupt a company by QuoteMstr · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's a $0.25 limit on payment in small coins (e.g., pennies) and a $10 limit on payment in large coins

    There is no such limit.

  14. Re:Idiots by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Informative

    So TPB had a commercial website (at least they accepted advertising revenue; even if they made a net loss, commercial incompetence is no defence ) that was almost exclusively used for piracy, and what? Were they simply unaware of this? Were they aware and taking reasonable steps to reduce the problem?

    Seems to me that the guys set up a website for the primary purpose of aiding copyright infringement. Anecdotally, it's certainly the only purpose just about anyone I know used it for.

    I always wonder about people who argue that TPB wasn't about piracy*. Do they actually believe it themselves? If so I have a bridge to sell them. Are they trying to convince people like me that it wasn't? Are they hoping that the arguments will get to some hypothetical court somewhere who will interpret the law in the manner of a computer program, rather than take into account situations and abstract concepts such as a reasonable man test?

    *And get over yourself. The term "piracy" has been used in this way since the 16th century!

  15. The argument of convenience by westlake · · Score: 4, Informative

    Well then it's a good thing TPB guys didn't download anything.

    The ordinary meaning of infringement is "an an encroachment on the rights or privileges of others." infringement

    In plain English, if you maintain a clearing house for the illicit P2P trade you are as guilty as the traders themselves.

    This is not exactly a novel principle in civil and criminal law - and the geek might usefully ask himself if he really wants to see it eroded.

    just make sure your bribe is big enough to get your personal law enacted...

    I would like to introduce a modest compliment to Godwin's Law:

    When the geek launches into a rant on the theme of bribery, all hope of intelligent discussion has ended.

  16. Re:That's an interesting way to bankrupt a company by Blue+Stone · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is in the UK:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_sterling#Legal_tender_and_regional_issues

    --
    Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
  17. Re:Something doesn't quite make sense, here... by fredklein · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is why in some stores that accept credit cards you will see signs saying that you may not use credit for purchases less than X.XX amount. This is because small transactions like that actually cost them more money than they make.

    Those signs are (probably) in violation of their Merchant Agreement. For instance:

    http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card_acceptance_guide.pdf

    "Always honor valid Visa cards in your acceptance catagory, regardless of the dollar amount of the purchase. Imposing minimum or maximum purchase amounts in order to accept Visa card transactions is a violation of the Visa rules" [emphasis in original]