NY Bill Proposes Fat Tax On Games, DVDs, Junk Food

eldavojohn writes "GamePolitics is writing about a proposal to tax things that make your kids fat. The logic from its author: 'Almost all experts agree that the primary reasons [for the obesity epidemic] are increased consumption of larger quantities of high calorie foods, snacks and sugar sweetened beverages... and lack of physical activity as vigorous play is replaced by sedentary activities such as watching more television, movies and videos and playing video games. This bill would raise revenues from modest surcharges on the very food products and sedentary activities that are linked to the lifestyle changes involved in the explosion of childhood obesity in the last 20-30 years.' Not as explicit as Japan's fat tax but we're getting there."

Comments

Money Grab

[FredFredrickson]

I applaud the effort- it's a worthy cause..

But it's not going to make anybody skinny. Just make hordes of cash under a cause that everyone would support. This is a money grab.

Re:Money Grab

[diskofish]

It isn't a worthy cause. They are just looking for another way to squeeze even more out of us. NY already has some of the highest taxes in the country. I think by calling it a fat tax they hope to make it seem less egregious. What they need to do is make serious budget cuts. Cut back on the state government. Unfortunately, the special interests groups are going to keep fighting for their piece of the budget when someone wants to cut it.

Re:Money Grab

[sys.stdout.write]

It isn't about making people skinny, it's about paying for the additional medical costs incurred by obesity.

I for one think this is a non-terrible idea.

Re:Money Grab

[SatanicPuppy]

Well they can tax the luxury goods, or they can raise the state sales tax, it's really up to you.

What it comes down to, is they need the money to make their budget. If this is what they choose to tax, it's a lot better than what they could tax.

Lowering spending is another option, but that's never all that popular in New York, or at least it wasn't when I lived there.

Re:Money Grab

[someone1234]

I play instead of eating so i'm skinny.
So why would they tax me.
They should tax only fat people, damnit.

Re:Money Grab

[SatanicPuppy]

Those "additional costs" are an article of faith, and not the proven thing most people seem to assume.

When studies have been done, it's turned out that people who live unhealthy lifestyles generally cost a society less overall because they tend to actually die of their health problems. The tofu-eaters, on the other hand, live longer, and accrue more costs.

Paying lung cancer care for a smoker who lives 12 months after his diagnosis is cheap compared to paying medicare, social security, and eventual hospital costs for someone who lives much longer.

Re:Money Grab

[addsalt]

but even worse, I would suspect these types of foods are consumed in higher quantities by lower income levels (shopping for fresh foods - not to mention at Whole Foods - isn't cheap). Not only is it trying to squeeze more tax revenue, it would be hitting the lower income bracket the worse.

Re:Money Grab

[Woldry]

Not to mention the fact that when "Almost all experts agree" on a wide range of things, they are almost certainly going to be wrong about at least a few of them. The notions of experts about what sorts of foods make people fat have changed drastically in my several decades of adulthood. They're bound to change again. Will the taxes go away on foods that the latest scientific version of the truth decides are no longer fattening? Of course not. They'll stay, and also be added to the new alleged culprits, as more and more foods fall under the tax.

And then, aside from the food question, there's the question of whether it's in the best interest of government to discourage mental activity and learning (in the form of games) on the dubious assumption that the alternative that people will choose will be healthier.

Re:Money Grab

[Merls the Sneaky]

Cheap food is made with cheap crap, therefore is consumed by the poor (the worlds most populous group). They all buy it because it is cheaper than eating healthy. When you're struggling to make ends meet the last thing you're thinking is "is this healthy?", you're probably thinking more along the lines of "will this feed my kids for the next week?"

Re:Money Grab

[Captain Centropyge]

I agree, this is NOT a worthy cause. Who are they to say who's fat? And if I'm not fat, who are they to say I have to pay because other people are fat, lazy, and unmotivated to help themselves? Some people don't give a shit that they're fat. If it's genetic or something, insurance will cover it. But don't make me pay more taxes. This isn't going to do jack crap to make people thinner. And if they're going to make anyone pay, they should make fat people pay the fat tax, since they are the ones that need the motivation to lose weight.

Once again, the government thinking they know what's best for us... morons.

And one more thing... a very important thing. This has NOTHING to do with getting people off their lazy asses and losing weight. It's just another way for the government to tax us. More money for them to piss away on stupid programs that do nothing and political agendas. You want more money..? Cut programs that are failing. There are plenty of them.

Re:Money Grab

[Merls the Sneaky]

/antismokinglobby
Lung cancer? Ever smoked? You did?! Once when you were fifteen. Smoking caused your lung cancer. Never mind you lived next to a highway for forty years. That one fag gave you the cancer. /antismokinglobby

Re:Money Grab

[Captain Centropyge]

It's not a money grab - I would totally support this.

I'm tired of my taxes paying the health care bills of these fat bastards. They eat crap, get overweight, next thing they are in for knee surgeries and lifelong diabetes management.

Well, how about this then. Make FAT PEOPLE pay the fat tax. Why should I pay for someone else's laziness and bad eating habits?

Re:Money Grab

[nedlohs]

Surely that's not the comparison.

The lean meat cuts are significantly more expensive than the 30% fat mince. Pasta is cheaper than vegetables. Soda is cheaper than juice.

Re:Money Grab

[pluther]

Not entirely true.

While it's true that it's easier to get good quality ingredients and healthier pre-packaged foods if you have the money for it, what causes obesity isn't so much the lower quality of food available for the money, but the choices people make on what to spend their money on.

For instance, yes, a hamburger in a real restaurant is better, healthier, and more expensive than a hamburger at McDonald's. But you can buy raw hamburger and cook it at home, and make it tastier, healthier, and far cheaper than you can get at McDonald's.

The boxed Macaroni and Cheese you get at Whole Foods is indeed better for you than Kraft, but costs three times as much. Less than half the price of Kraft, though, is buying the ingredients and making it yourself. Better tasting, cheaper, and less fattening.

Vegetables at your average farmers market cost about half of what they do in a grocery store, and are fresher and better tasting.

I could go on. Yes, the rich will always have more options than the poor. But with a little bit of research, effort, and practice, people can eat far healthier for even less money than the average American is doing now.

Re:Money Grab

[tmosley]

Think about how many calories are in a bag of carrots versus a bag of doritos. Measured per calorie, vegetables are MUCH more expensive.

Of course, most of the food I eat is cooked from scratch, and we grow our own vegetables, so eating healthy is fairly cheap, but it takes a LOT of time, time that most 2-worker households don't have.

Re:Money Grab

[Chabo]

Not to mention that not too many people can just sit down and eat a whole bag of carrots; to make the carrots palatable, most people eat them with a dip, which is usually high in fat. One of my friends from college even went so far as to use cake frosting as her carrot dip!

Re:Money Grab

[maztuhblastah]

Think about how many calories are in a bag of carrots versus a bag of doritos. Measured per calorie, vegetables are MUCH more expensive.

Well using that logic, there's no possible way you can lose this one, is there?

Of course that's exactly the point -- fatty foods *do* contain more calories by volume, thus eating 99c worth of chips will "make you fatter" than 99c worth of carrots.

You can't have it both ways: either it's that the cheapest food available is horrendously awful for you (not true, as pointed out above), or the food that's got the best calorie/cost ratio is bad for you when consumed without regard for calorie density (see above: duh).

Re:Money Grab

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem here is that while many people who struggle to make ends meet may save money by buying ingredients and cooking healthy meals themselves, they may not have time to cook family-sized dinners due to their two or three jobs. Time, more than money, is likely the reason that the cooking plan doesn't pan out.

Re:Money Grab

[Slashdot Parent]

While I generally agree with you, what home grown mac n cheese recipe do you have that is healthier? All of the recipes we have are very high in fat.

I've never understood this aversion to fat. Humans are evolved to digest fat. If you want to make your mac'n'cheese healthier, don't eat all the reprocessed crap that's in Kraft.

Let us also not forget that many families are either single parent or have two working parents and thus there is a lack of time to prepare all of this delicious nutritious food. At my house we've been trying 20 minute recipes but in general they do end up costing more than just going out to eat.

My household is dual-income, and we have plenty of time to prepare delicious, nutritious food. It's all about time management. Chop veggies the night before. Get a crock pot. It's not that hard.

I'm not sure how your home-cooked food costs more than going out to eat. You must be eating strictly off the dollar menu, or you must buy some seriously expensive ingredients.

One thing you are forgetting is that people that are cheap and would buy prepackaged food or eat at McDonalds will buy cheap ingredients for making food from scratch and you'll be back at square one when it comes to health concerns.

There are plenty of cheap, healthy ingredients. Lentils, chick peas, carrots, peanuts, etc. on the veggie side. And with a crock pot, you can buy cheaper cuts of meat--you cook it all day, so it comes out great.

I think the bigger problem is they don't teach home economics in school anymore. The byproduct of all this political correctness is that nobody knows how to run a household and put healthy food on the table.

Re:Money Grab

[QuantumRiff]

Why not tax books? Do they not lead to the same health problems as sitting still playing video games?

Re:Money Grab

[BaronHethorSamedi]

I'm a bit skeptical of the "healthy foods are more expensive" argument. The notion that you need a certain economic status in order to maintain a decent diet seems to be a uniquely American problem.

Beans, lentils, eggs, rice, basic grains--the stuff most of the world's poor live on--are all highly consumed because they're (relatively) easy to cultivate, nourishing, and cheap. Cheaper by far (even at your local U.S. supermarket) than Hamburger Helper, Spam, Hot Pockets, etc. But the Hot Pockets are much more heavily advertised, and take less time to prepare. I think putting together a halfway healthy meal is much more a question of time than money.

Re:Money Grab

[Mister Whirly]

Clean air, hundreds of miles of bike trails, clean parks, trees actually IN the city (and not just in one park), clean lakes (13,000 in our state alone), clean rivers, hunting and fishing galore, etc.

Re:Money Grab

[crmarvin42]

I totally agree with you.

They justifiy the 'sin' taxes, especially on cigarettes...because of the health risks, and hope it is an incentive to quit.

Am I the only one that notices that 'sin' taxes designed, ostensibly, as a deterent are counter productive. For example:

1. Tax Cigaretts to pay for Medicare/Medcaid
2. People cut back on cigarette purchases
3. Revinue goes down from 'sin' taxes
4. Budget shortfalls lead to further increases in 'sin' taxes
5. Rinse and repeat until consuption rate drops to the point where 'sin' taxes are incapable of generating sufficent revenue to feed the Governments need for more spending.
6. Find new 'sin' (in this case obesity).
7. Rinse and repeat all over again.

The problem with the 'sin' taxes, or the 'fat' tax is that it's used more to generate money and prevent spending cuts, than to actually improve anyones health. If the government does end up decreasing the undesirable consumption (tobacco, alcohol, gasoline, sweets, video games, movies, etc.), they end up running out of money to fund their pet projects. If these kinds of taxes were actually designed to do what they claim, then there would be mechanisms included to decrease funding of the relevant programs as consumption goes down.

It's all Nanny State BS, wrapped up in the guise of the Public Good. I'm going to become a parent in August, and I'll do what my parents did. Once our children get to the age where this kind of sedentary activity is a concern, I'll kick them outside when it's nice, and not let them back into the house until meal time. I'll keep high calorie foods as a treat of last resort, and limit TV, video games, etc. to an hour or two a night.

If you feel like you need the government to make sweets and video games more expensive to prevent you from giving them to your kids in excessive ammounts, please do the rest of us a favor. DON'T BREED. If you already have, please drop your kids off at the nearest adoption agency and go get yourself a tubal ligation/vasectomy. YOU are the parent. Act like it. Tell you child "NO", and then stick to your guns. Let them throw temper tantrums, they'll cry themselves out eventually. I know that I always did. If you dont' have the patience, then take them home and whip their ass. That worked just as well in my experience.

Re:Money Grab

[Shakrai]

No. If certain fast food is that bad for the kids, make it illegal to market or sell it to minors.

Fast food isn't bad or good for the kids. Fast food consumed without moderation is the problem. A quarter pounder with cheese (500 calories), large fries (500 calories) and large soda (300 calories) adds up to 1,300 calories.

That's quite a lot for a single meal but not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things, provided that you adjust your caloric intake accordingly. There's no reason to charge me more for fast food simply because the rest of the country doesn't know what moderation means or how to exercise it.

Re:Money Grab

[Shakrai]

Look, if this fixes the behavior of millions of people but happens to minorly inconvenience one person with an abnormal routine, I think it's worth going for.

Do you honestly think that it's a proper role for Government to "fix" the behavior of it's citizenry, when said behavior harms nobody whom doesn't engage in it?

ass-backwards

[poetmatt]

as much as yes, these things can make people fat, how are they trying to put video games into this? People actually SWEAT from video games. This is like saying a racecar driver gets fat because he's sitting the whole time, which many know is not true at all.

Got to love the idea too, pay extra even if you are, say, someone in shape who merely wants to cheat on their diet once in a blue moon, now should be taxed extra too. Sheesh.

So yeah, nothing but moneygrab.

Re:ass-backwards

[KiltedKnight]

That, and what about games designed around doing a lot of work, motion, etc, such as Wii Fit and Dance Dance Revolution (DDR)? People have been able to use these games as a way to make working out fun. Does that mean you'll get a tax rebate on these games and the controllers necessary for them?

Re:ass-backwards

[lostmongoose]

so what about movie tickets? Books? Music? Are they going to add additional taxes on homeowners who's homes have decks/patios where they can go outside and just sit and relax all day? All of these things are sedentary entertainment. What makes them different from games and dvds?

Re:ass-backwards

[metamechanical]

We're talking about New York here. This isn't a sin tax - this is a thinly-veiled money grab. In short, no, there will be no rebate.

Not all video games are created equal

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder they'll tax Wii games, or make an exception for them. I would find it extremely ironic to tax the Wii Fit and fitness games for making someone fat.

Totally bogus...

[Anonymous Coward]

People with office jobs should have to pay this tax. They sit on their ass all day. Why should a construction worker, a whorehouse picker, or any other manual labour have to support office workers' sedentary lifestyle?

How about

[MikeRT]

Anyone who is morbidly obese and doesn't have a diagnosed thyroid problem gets no Medicare or Medicaid? How right wing of me! I should be kind and compassionate by paying taxes to support the health care of people who know their habits are destroying them.

Re:How about

[Anonymous Coward]

while they are still on the waiting list to see a doctor you mean?

since obesity will be claimable as a disability...

[goffster]

It is simply reclaiming what they are going to pay out

While we are at it...

[kheti]

Let's tax magazines and books.

How about a Crap Tax?

[pegasustonans]

Why don't we also have a "Crap Tax" wherein those who consume food and subsequently release it into sewage systems must pay a percentage relative to the weight of their waste? This would have the additional benefit of taxing those who consume more and probably be about as effective as the tax proposed in TFA.

Or they could just rename the 'video game tax' the "crap tax" and be more honest about the quality of their reasoning on the issue.

How short sighted

[east coast]

I ride my stationary bike while I watch DVDs. Should I get a tax credit because I bought exercise equipment to offset a tax that assumes too much?

backwards

[Merls the Sneaky]

How about lowing (or even removing) taxesd on things that are likely to help keep you fit. Sporting equip, health foods, etc.

Oh thats right the greedy fucks don't get any money from that.

Re:backwards

[Prof.Phreak]

tax people in proportion to the weight they gain year by year. see how popular -that- tax will be!

Re:backwards

[MarkGriz]

How about lowering taxes period.

It's the government that needs to be on a f*cking diet.

Re:I still say they should get rid of HFC Syrup

[rcuhljr]

Why is there no '-1 Correlation is not Causation'?

I fully support this Fat tax

[JumperCable]

The government has gone so far out to control our lives with taxes on things people disapprove of it isn't funny.

It will only get better once the government has gone so far out of whack that it micromanages every aspect of our lives. Only then will there be enough pushback

Welcome to a tax on everything

[Shivetya]

People want free health care, people want free this, that, and the other thing.

and they will find enough people who will feel it is OK to tax X because said people don't like X. The problem is that group will get whacked by people who don't like Y.

A VAT by any other name.

The stuff has to be paid for. The fastest way to keep people dependent on the government and keep people poor is to make it easy to be dependent and poor.

I know people who would cheer those gamers being taxed, I have vegan friends who would have a parade for fatties to pay more tax...

it never ends... too many people take enjoyment by having others punished. Most get bent when it occurs because of "religious" reasons but honestly does it matter when it comes down to it?

Democracies always have problems when people finally figure out they can vote themselves other peoples money, its worse when elected officials realize it works to keep them in office. Its even worse when a sitting President uses the bully pulpit to stomp on contract law and intimidate lawful holders of guaranteed debt to give it up.

How about taxing corn instead of sugar?

[kyz]

The problem that's unique to the US is that government corn subsidies makes corn cheaper than anything else. So manufacturers use high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar as sweetener.

HFCS is not only a sugar substitute, it also gets put into things that wouldn't otherwise be sweetened if you had to pay the full cost of sugar to sweeten it.

How about the US government stop subsidising corn?

Total BS

[molex333]

None of these things make people fat! Parents let their kids get fat. When I was young, I had a Nintendo and Gameboy and plenty of videos and TV to watch, but my Mother wouldn't let me sit on my ass and watch them all day. She made all of her children go outside. If we were bored, she gave us yard work and/or other chores to do! The children today aren't going to get less fat if they tax this stuff because people will keep buying it (look at cigarettes, we know that they will give you cancer and they tax the hell out of it, almost $8.00 a pack in NY, but millions of people buy them every day). If you want to stop kids from being fat do something to get the parents involved. Start making your kids play outside!!!!

doesn't seem very principled

[Trepidity]

If you're against sedentary activities in general, the list is surely much longer than videogames and DVDs. How about, say, books? Or televisions? Or board games?

I can't spend all of my time working out

[aePrime]

I'm a marathoner who spends quite a bit of time playing video games.

Do I get a tax deduction for the hours I spend running?

Re:I still say they should get rid of HFC Syrup

[Zordak]

That's like saying "the crumbs on the floor are not ants." It's a factually true statement, but it's hardly a useful one. It would be more useful to say that correlation does not necessarily imply causation. But correlation very often does mean something. The fact that correlation does not necessarily imply causation does not mean that correlation somehow implies non-causation. At the very least, correlation implies "maybe there's something here we should look into a little more closely."

Why tax the source?

[EvilToiletPaper]

Why the 'ef is the city taxing these things that *fit* folks also enjoy.

I enjoy Video games, watching DVD's and the occasional 2^32 calorie baconator sandwich. I also work out with weights 4 days a week and try to squeeze in some cardio on the weekends. I work hard to keep myself in shape, why the heck should I be paying these dumb taxes just because the city decided to play nanny to some obviously retarded morons..

This reeks of the typical lawyer 'shift the blame' mentality. Tax the fat fucking folks not the source of their fat, charge them double on Airplanes and subways, the assholes take up 2.5 seats each, tax them for treating walkways like amusement park rides, tax them for holding up pedestrian traffic, No more disabled parking stickers for fat retards, let them walk and burn it off.

Make an exception in case of folks that can't help it e.g. thyroid disorders but all the other morons stuffing themselves with Big Mac's all day long, teach them a lesson. the Japanese way sounds pretty good..

Absurd - Every Bit Of It.

[blcamp]

I'm not a nutritionist, nor play one on TV, but I can make the argument that one can of Coke every day does *not* make a person overweight, while eating too much broccoli *will*.

The point: this is not about nutrition or health, but rather, about the government finding *any excuse it can* to extract more and more money from the pockets of it's citizenry... while at the same time imposing more and more of it's will on them.

A day will come... sooner than the busybody pointy-head academics, power hungry Congressional thugs, and greedy special-interest lobbyists think... when those of us peasants who continuously get ravaged by out of control lawmakers, have finally had enough... and we begin reaching for our pitchforks.

Re:Absurd - Every Bit Of It.

[geekoid]

"I'm not a nutritionist, nor play one on TV, but I can make the argument that one can of Coke every day does *not* make a person overweight, while eating too much broccoli *will*."

and yet you don't.
Go on, make your case, I can't wait to see it.

Re:Better Idea

[castironpigeon]

The only thing that would discourage the use of cars in the US is populating the country as densely as Europe and slapping down some mass transit lines all over it.

No need for tax

[aaandre]

Just stop subsidizing corn and corn syrup, and establish something like the FDA, but functioning.

Have you noticed?

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

Kids don't play outside anymore. When I was a kid, my friends and I would go ride our bikes, go build a tree fort, play hide and seek, or play a million and one other games we made up on the spot. Sometimes we fell down, sometimes we got hurt, and once in a while we even learned something.

These days everyone is so worried. "Won't somebody think of the children!"
The Children are growing up with out learning that when you fall sometimes you get hurt.
Here is a connection these so called experts never seem to figure out. Kids that go out side to play, get exercise, and (Imagine this.) they don't get fat.

I weep for the future!

Don't know

[SmallFurryCreature]

I travel by public transport and pass by Utrecht Central Station. It has various eateries, from healthy to McD/Burger King. Price for a McD basic hamburger, 1euro. Price of a natural bagle with cream chease. 2,95. Both satisfy my hunger, but what about my thirst? 1 euro for a soft drink, 3 euro for a fruit shake. If I am buy a meal it is 2 bagles and 1 fruit juice , nearly 10 euro's or 2 hamburder and a soda for 3 euro.

I am making a decent salary but also got expenses.

Now imagine a tax which made the hamburger cost 3 euro and lowered the sales tax on healthy foor dropping its price to 2,50. A LOT easier to remain healthy.

Doubt it will work this way, but still, if you got to tax something, then tax something I want to cut down on buying anyway.

So go for it I say. It means the end of the month won't see me stuffing myself with more fat then is good for me.

What happened...

[BlowHole666]

What happened to free will and free choice? If sitting on your ass watching TV, drinking cokes makes you fat who cares. Why should the government have the right to tell someone they need to not do/consume certain things via a tax.

Someone could argue that fat people cost more in medical expenses and because of this they cause the cost of medical procedures to rise. This may be true. However, if someone is over weight they have a higher chance of death via heart attack, or diabetes. Healthy people end up living longer, and costing more money. So what is the problem with someone being fat? In the long run they cost less.

On the other hand could fit people also cause medical expenses to rise? Running is bad for your knees you could twist a knee or ankle in basketball or baseball. You could get a concussion in football or loose tooth in hockey.

So being both health or fat increase the cost of insurance and medical expenses on a whole, so why just target fat people? Is this just a political/social vendetta against over weight people?

Sedentary Jobs?

[jbezorg]

What about other sedentary activities like lawmakers who sit around thinking up this crap?

On a more serious note, what about sedentary jobs? What about stress? If you apply the same logic to all activities then people would have to pay to be air traffic controllers.

While I agree HFCS is over used

[Sycraft-fu]

You are out of your gourd if you think corn has no nutritional value. It was the staple grain in the diet of many Native American tribes for centuries. That doesn't mean we should turn it in to a sugar substitute and put it in everything, but trying to pretend that it isn't an important grain is silly.

First the came for the smokers

[bussdriver]

First they went after alcohol. I didn't notice because it was before my time.

Then they went after the smokers with taxes. I said "good they shouldn't smoke anyhow."

Now they are going after fat people. I said "wait a second, I'm not fat..."

Well why stop there?

[Strych9]

Why not fat tax recliners and comfy couches along with any channel that shows the NFL all day on Sunday (and Beer too)?

I'm sure that will help the slightly older generation also get out there and be fit.

Oh look, another New York Tax! Lets just be honest

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

Lets just be honest... New York needs money. This is the 5th or 6th ridiculous new New York Tax featured on slashdot in the past year and a half. None of this has to do with anything they claim it does.

This is about poor management within NY state. Our government is out of f'n control here. We're litterally leading the state BLIND... and fucking hookers with state paychecks.

Tax soda, junk food, plastic bags, AMAZON.com.... etc... These are the brilliant ideas of our elected morons.

Lots of people pass through those toll booths every day. Supposedly they rake in 18+million a week on them... Where does all of that go? Oh wait... to BUILD 2 COMPLETELY NEW BASEBALL STADIUMS for 2 of the richest teams in baseball!

What the fuck are we doing? The Yankees should have paid for their stadium on their on. The Mets should pay for their own stadium. Let me ask you this.... Since all of our tax dollars went to building these 2 USELESS stadiums to replace 2 functioning (and 1 of which historic) stadiums... I can now assume that i can go to the games any time i want for free right? Nope. Not only did they take our tax dollars to build these redundant stadiums, they have the nerve to charge us ridiculous fees to get in. Talk about a fucking con job.

THAT is our political system at its "best"

So pay for your soda tax.... pay your GTA4 tax... :) Lets really talk about WHERE THE FUCKING MONEY GOES.... and who sells us out on a daily fucking basis. ... and I'm for National Health care folks :)