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GPS Accuracy Could Start Dropping In 2010

adamengst writes "A US Government Accountability Office report raises concerns about the Air Force's ability to modernize and maintain the constellation of satellites necessary to provide GPS services to military and civilian users. TidBITS looks at the situation and possible solutions."

210 comments

  1. Where's Waldo? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    There he is! No, wait...

  2. How about cutting the dead wood? by mr_stinky_britches · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From TFA:

    The GAO's report draws attention to problems that the Air Force has had in working with contractors to build and launch GPS satellites within cost and schedule goals. Some of the problems stem from government acquisition methods that didn't provide for enough oversight, and added requirements that resulted in cost and schedule overruns.

    Sounds like a software/project management issue to me. I didn't finish reading the article, but I hope one of their proposed solutions was to fire the incompetent people who can't deliver on-time or within budget.

    just my .02c

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    1. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by FireFlie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just your 1/50th of a cent?

    2. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      .02Vc (Verizon cents)

    3. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by jeepien · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, that wasn't really a cent sign. He might have meant it was just his 5 995 849.16 m/s.

    4. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by shipofgold · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is a mergers and acquisitions problem. Having worked for a large company and gone through more than one merger/divestiture/early retirement buyout/staff cutting/staff building/etc. I have seen a lot of history and knowledge walk out the door. When projects get shuffled around and re-organized it is inevitable you end up with people who are out of their depth trying to make sense of the previous work and in many cases just redoing it because they don't understand it. Not a case of incompetance on the developers part....just too much to learn in too short of time.

    5. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      I didn't finish reading the article, but I hope one of their proposed solutions was to fire the incompetent people who can't deliver on-time or within budget.

      You probably should have finished reading the article. How I read it was that the contractors responsible for building the new (and SiRF-III upgraded) satellites (ie: Boeing) have been letting go of the people with the necessary knowledge to stay on-schedule with their commitments because they've too busy buying and merging with other companies instead.

    6. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/

    7. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by Intosi · · Score: 1

      Well, he said he didn't read the entire article, so perhaps this was a way of compensating?

      --

      Intosi

    8. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by definate · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yep, or to put it another way, just his .02 dollars.

      --
      This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    9. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cut that wood!

    10. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Problem is that in many of these cases, the customer is as much to blame as the contractor.

      "Some of the problems stem from government acquisition methods that didn't provide for enough oversight, and added requirements that resulted in cost and schedule overruns."

      Note that second half of the sentence. That's typically a customer-driven problem, not a contractor-driven problem. Scope creep is a bitch. :(

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    11. Re:How about cutting the dead wood? by Otto95 · · Score: 1

      Spoken like someone who has never worked on a government contract. Who do you think is responsible for making sure there is enough oversight, or would add requirements at the last minute resulting in cost overrun? Hint: NOT the contractors. You're right, it is a project management issue, but likely not with the contractors. As far as transparency is concerned, govt. contracts, particularly those required to be CMMI compliant, have documentation and transparency requirements that would shock most commercial software developers.

  3. Just in time for Galileo by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Best not to rely entirely on one system anyway.

    1. Re:Just in time for Galileo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm Catholic you insensitive clod! I can't use it!

    2. Re:Just in time for Galileo by ManWithIceCream · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Just what I thought.

    3. Re:Just in time for Galileo by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm Catholic you insensitive clod! I can't use it!

      Get with the times, you anachronistic clod!

      Thanks to his intuition as a brilliant physicist and by relying on different arguments, Galileo, who practically invented the experimental method, understood why only the sun could function as the centre of the world, as it was then known, that is to say, as a planetary system. The error of the theologians of the time, when they maintained the centrality of the Earth, was to think that our understanding of the physical world's structure was, in some way, imposed by the literal sense of Sacred Scripture....
      â" Pope John Paul II, L'Osservatore Romano N. 44 (1264) - November 4, 1992

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Modern_church_views

      In 2000, Pope John Paul II issued a formal apology for all the errors of the Church over the last 2000 years including the trial of Galileo among others.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    4. Re:Just in time for Galileo by MichaelSmith · · Score: 0, Troll

      In 2000, Pope John Paul II issued a formal apology for all the errors of the Church over the last 2000 years including the trial of Galileo among others.

      Thats why I never accept apologies. If they were really sorry they wouldn't have done it in the first place.

    5. Re:Just in time for Galileo by Repton · · Score: 5, Funny

      Heh. Naming a bunch of things that orbit the earth after Galileo. Irony :-)

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    6. Re:Just in time for Galileo by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      In 2000, Pope John Paul II issued a formal apology for all the errors of the Church over the last 2000 years including the trial of Galileo among others.

      Thats why I never accept apologies. If they were really sorry they wouldn't have done it in the first place.

      I'm pretty sure JP there wasn't the one who dunn it to begin with...

      Although if Ratzi had the opportunity to fuck over Galileo, I'm sure he would. He's a bit of a jerk, you see. Anyhoo, the important part is that the Church officially admitted that they were wrong. That's a good thing, it puts a stop to the wrongness, even if it had been better never to have been wrong at all.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

  4. How much is actually going to be lost? by Chmcginn · · Score: 5, Insightful
    With one or two satellites below the 24 constellation, the accuracy isn't going to be impeded any noticeable amount. Any GPS reciever that can take DGPS signals might well not even notice.

    The real concern is a major solar event - if they're having a big issue replacing one every other year, imagine if a major solar storm took out a dozen at once.

    --
    Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
    1. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe people will stop looking at me funny when I carry a compass everywhere.

      Maybe they'll stop looking at me even stranger when I tell them which way is north WITHOUT a compass.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    2. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by master5o1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      North is ALWAYS that way ... --->

      --
      signature is pants
    3. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by hezekiah957 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's south for me, given the current orientation of my computer.

    4. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by master5o1 · · Score: 5, Funny

      You must be using your computer wrong.

      --
      signature is pants
    5. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by slarrg · · Score: 3, Funny

      You're probably reading he wrong end of the needle.

    6. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, like me, (s)he's from the southern hemisphere.

    7. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by evangellydonut · · Score: 5, Informative

      solar event will cause transient events that will recover in a few seconds.

      GPS2F was awarded in the early 90s with a launch date of more than 10 years out. This caused parts issues that significantly magnified design issues. Without going into company secrets, let's just say that bean-counters and engineers fought long and hard. I wonder why Boeing lost GPS3...

      If LockMart can't deliver as promised, Airforce can always buy more IIF. After 12-or-so builds currently on contract by Boeing, you figure even the incompetent can get their bugs worked out by then (sans part issues)

    8. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by ijakings · · Score: 1

      Now come on, who are you kidding with the (s)he.

      You must be new here.

      (Well aware my UID is higher than yours)

    9. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe people will stop looking at me funny when I carry a compass everywhere.

      People used to do the same to me. When someone does, I stab them with the pointy end and draw a circle on their face.

      Now they don't look at me funny.

    10. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Well, sorry. I've been reading a book on sociolinguistics which discusses gender specific pronouns...

    11. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      I find it funny that you're almost dead on for me. It's pointing north east. :P

    12. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The southwest for me. My monitor faces northwest.

    13. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by The_Wilschon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Just out of curiosity, what book? (My wife, a historical linguist, teaches a class called "Language, Sex, and Gender".)

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    14. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Solra+Bizna · · Score: 1

      I find it funny that you're almost dead on for me. It's pointing north east.

      For me, it actually WAS north. (Fine, a couple degrees west of north, but who's counting?)

      -:sigma.SB

      --
      WARN
      THERE IS ANOTHER SYSTEM
    15. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Trudgill's Sociolingustics. I'm not sure whether it's an authoritative work on the discipline but it was at the local library. :-) It's a fairly broad book covering a number of topics. The chapter I was referring to details the differences in pronunciation, vocabulary and historical evolution of languages based on male/female biases etc. (I've been wondering about studying applied lingustics by distance education.)

    16. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Repton · · Score: 1

      Do they not have a sun where you live?

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    17. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The real concern is a major solar event - if they're having a big issue replacing one every other year, imagine if a major solar storm took out a dozen at once."

      That is what the LORAN system is for.

      Except Obama is killing it in the 2010 budget and thereafter. Remember during his press conference earlier this month where he was talking about the navigation system that was replaced because we have GPS? It was also flashed up on the prime time hours that same day on CNN. The system that is slated be killed is LORAN, specifically eLORAN.

      As you and others have pointed out, it's just a damn good idea to have a GPS backup on a proven terrestrial system. Say, solar storm, or satellite attack as has been shown by both the US and China is taking out satellites with missiles, LORAN is largely land-based, easier to deploy for redundancy, etc. Killing it means everything we have will be GNSS based.

      Not to mention, people use LORAN for other reasons besides navigation, such as timekeeping, which is used for billing (cell tour backup to GPS) and frequency standard (say, training your rubidium standard for optical experiments).

      Plus, in saving $36 million or $110m or whatever over the years taking out a system he knows most people don't know of and hopes won't matter in the short-term, he neglected to say we put in $160m already to upgrade from LORAN-C to eLORAN; now we will get nothing for that investement. Do you know how that compares to finish and run for years the ENTIRE backup system compared to launching ONE replacement GPS satellite?

    18. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by tompaulco · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe they'll stop looking at me even stranger when I tell them which way is north WITHOUT a compass.
      Telling North is pretty easy using the stars if available at night or the sun if you are reasonably sure of the season and approximately what time of day it is.
      As for the old boyscout adage, I think it should be changed to "Moss always grows on the outside of the tree", that's how useful it is. And of course, a rolling stone gathers no moss, so no matter which way it is rolling, that is no indication of which way is north.
      If you are ever going hiking and want to be sure not to get lost, be sure to pack your fiberoptic cable and a shovel. If you get well and truly lost, dig a trench and bury the cable. When the backhoe comes to dig it up, simply follow the backhoe back to civilization.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    19. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      Time for an uber-cannon? I mean wouldn't that save alot of money launching satellites?

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    20. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      If you keep going though it turns into the northern hemisphere.

    21. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by XDirtypunkX · · Score: 1

      I don't know, they'd look at anyone pretty funny with a poor attempt at a circle on their face.

    22. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      A launch rail just might. Of course, there's the tale in Rache Bartmoss' Guide to the Net of how a hacker got into the Orbital Air launch system and caused a launch package to fail to reach orbital velocity and killed a bunch of people in Nigeria. Sci-fi (and RPG sci-fi at that), but still something to keep in mind should someone ever figure out how to do it.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    23. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      What happens when you carve a "stone" out of a tree, and then attach a fiberoptic cable to it, and let it roll into a burying hole?

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    24. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      No. But we have an oracle now. Unfortunately, like all new oracles, it's *huge* (even compared to the sun) for no reason at all.
      .
      .
      .
      If you laughed, you definitely need to go out more. ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    25. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      So what. Can happen to any other launching and non-launching system too, that contains something potentially dangerous.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    26. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by markyd123 · · Score: 1

      Do they not have a sun where you live?

      Well, this is Slashdot, and my parent's basement only has air vents...

    27. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by somethinghollow · · Score: 1

      "Moss always grows on the outside of the tree"

      We all know Moss grows in the basement with Roy.

    28. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      My wife has a pretty high opinion of Trudgill, although she did say he was "not always quite mainstream". :)

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    29. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      solar event will cause transient events that will recover in a few seconds.

      So what. My local power company recently had a "transient event" -- they bounced the power a few times. Apparently it wasn't "transient" enough -- one computer no longer works.

    30. Re:How much is actually going to be lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe they'll stop looking at me even stranger when I tell them which way is north WITHOUT a compass.

      Well, duhhh -- north is always the same way whether you have a compass or not. :-)

  5. Europe to the rescue! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ah, and you all laughed when Europe started to launch Galileo sats. Haha!

    1. Re:Europe to the rescue! by WidescreenFreak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We did? Funny, I thought that most of the replies on /. might have questioned it but eventually agreed that it's not a bad idea to have a redundant array of satellites out there.

      --
      The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
    2. Re:Europe to the rescue! by saiha · · Score: 1

      If anything I would have expected "its about time" posts, seeing as Europe has been using the US stuff for free.

    3. Re:Europe to the rescue! by plover · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oooh, a new acronym!

      RAFES - Redundant Arrays of Fucking Expensive Satellites.

      --
      John
    4. Re:Europe to the rescue! by ktappe · · Score: 1

      Ah, and you all laughed when Europe started to launch Galileo sats. Haha!

      Side question: Would it be possible to design a GPS receiver that made use of both the US and Euro birds? Could the two systems be used as each others' backup?

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    5. Re:Europe to the rescue! by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 1

      From what I've read, Galileo receivers will be able to receive GPS signals, increasing the number of satellites available to triangulate your position and thereby increasing accuracy.

    6. Re:Europe to the rescue! by jeepien · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's spelled RAFES, but it's pronounced "ralphs".

    7. Re:Europe to the rescue! by digitig · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes. There have already been dual GPS/GLONASS systems for many years, so a triple GPS/GLONAS/Galileo system should be no problem. You could even throw EGNOS in. Of course, it will cost more, which is why few people have bothered with the dual GPS/GLONASS kit since GPS is good enough for most purposes.

      --
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    8. Re:Europe to the rescue! by plover · · Score: 1

      I was kind of thinking they "rafed" us taxpayers to fund it, but your explanation works too.

      --
      John
    9. Re:Europe to the rescue! by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      I think Redundant Array of Prohibitively Expensive Satellites has a better ring to it.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    10. Re:Europe to the rescue! by tanveer1979 · · Score: 1

      Yes. That is planned
      http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=P42FF0JL3N524QSNDLPSKH0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=199905165
      Till Galileo comes online, the system will work on standard GPS, after which it will work on both systems.
      Radio complexity increase is not much, and I expect single chip SoC to come up for the same soon, however software/firmware complexity may be the real killer here.

      --
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    11. Re:Europe to the rescue! by jetxee · · Score: 1

      > There have already been dual GPS/GLONASS systems for many years, so a triple GPS/GLONAS/Galileo system should be no problem.

      Actually, such systems already exist. For example, see Topcon GR-3. There are also GPS/GLONASS/Galileo single-chip receivers.

  6. Surveyors are going to start having problems... by yourassOA · · Score: 5, Interesting

    with land disputes. "Your fence is on my property" etc. We have had problems as it is with surveys in the last couple of years. It was blamed on poorly trained surveyors and some instances issues were settled in court particularly over contradicting reports and who pays for the cost of the surveys. In one instance 1/4 mile of new fence had to be moved at a cost of $10,000 and lawyer/surveyor fees of $25,000 over the fence been 5 feet out. The land in question later was sold for $60,000. What a waste of money over a silly pissing contest.

    1. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by captnbmoore · · Score: 1

      No they wont. http://surveyorsnotebook.com/ If I were to purchase a plot of land ad it had gps coordinates as the buoundary then they would be hiring a certfied surveyor to redo it. GPS is great for maritime , road, and outdoor navigation but is no where near accurate enough for surveys.

      --
      The Navy Motto "IF it ain't broke Fix It" "A day is wasted if you don't learn something new"
    2. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Informative

      No they wont. http://surveyorsnotebook.com/ If I were to purchase a plot of land ad it had gps coordinates as the buoundary then they would be hiring a certfied surveyor to redo it. GPS is great for maritime , road, and outdoor navigation but is no where near accurate enough for surveys.

      Well not if you just walk around with an etrex, but surveyors have more accurate gear than that. Not sure if they still use differential GPS though.

    3. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 0

      Doesn't matter.. you aren't going to get better than 10m accuracy without DGPS and 1m with it. Surveys have to be right to centimetres - no GPS can do that (possibly some of the military stuff, but I'd be surprised if even they were that accurate).

    4. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by rir · · Score: 3, Informative

      Differential Phase GPS is accurate enough for legal surveys (in British Columbia at least... I believe most of the rest of Canada as well).
      Btw, IAAS

    5. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by tsm_sf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Surveys have to be right to centimetres

      No, they just have to be consistent.

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    6. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Well my etrex claims four metre accuracy with good cover. Differential GPS has been used for decades to measure small movements of the earth across geological faults. That must require millimetre accuracy.

    7. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Doesn't matter.. you aren't going to get better than 10m accuracy without DGPS and 1m with it. Surveys have to be right to centimetres - no GPS can do that (possibly some of the military stuff, but I'd be surprised if even they were that accurate).

      C-Nav DGPS has 11 cm resolution in 3-d. Suck it.

    8. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Doesn't matter.. you aren't going to get better than 10m accuracy without DGPS and 1m with it. Surveys have to be right to centimetres - no GPS can do that (possibly some of the military stuff, but I'd be surprised if even they were that accurate).

      You are simply wrong. RTK GPS is accurate to a centimeter. Surveying, however, relies on a benchmark, which means that you won't have centimeter accuracy unless the benchmark is perfectly recorded, perfectly preserved, and can be found perfectly a second time.

    9. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by rir · · Score: 5, Informative

      Doesn't matter.. you aren't going to get better than 10m accuracy without DGPS and 1m with it. Surveys have to be right to centimetres - no GPS can do that (possibly some of the military stuff, but I'd be surprised if even they were that accurate).

      You don't need military GPS to be that accurate, it can be done with differential phase GPS. See: here. By using a fixed base station at a location with known coordinates, one can expect to see accuracies in the 1 to 2 cm range as long as the receiver is within 10's of km from the base station. There are several manufacturers who make gear that can achieve this level of accuracy, see Leica, Magellan, and Sokkia. I've been using Leica gear at work mostly, and have see ~1cm accuracy under good conditions pretty consistently. A lot of legal surveying in remote areas is done exclusively with GPS, especially in the northern parts of B.C and Alberta. I've done legal surveys with GPS in the Vancouver area, but getting high accuracy in urban areas is more difficult because of multi-path noise and qoor signal quality from obstructions such as buildings. Also people in the city get mad when you cut down trees to get better reception ;)

    10. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by fredklein · · Score: 1

      GPS is great for maritime , road, and outdoor navigation but is no where near accurate enough for surveys.

      I always wondered- I know GPS has a margin of error, but is that error consistent or random?

      What I mean is, if I place a GPS device at a known location and take a reading, and it is off by 'X' amount, will that reading always be off by that amount? If so, then I should be able to compensate for it.

      On the other hand, if the reading is off by a different random amount each time, can't I just take a bunch of readings and average them? Wouldn't that give me higher precision?

    11. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by plover · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even when trying to take a fix on the same point over time, the margin of error is random. Most of the error is due to propagation delays of the signal. The atmosphere is constantly changing density - the jet stream can raise or lower air pressure between you and satellite #5 at this point in time, or between you and satellite #23 at another point in time. The ionosphere can cause delays or reflections. Nearby buildings, or cars, or airplanes can cause ghost signals. Remember your high school physics teacher who always qualified the the speed of light with the phrase "in a vacuum"? It really makes a difference.

      Remember, the GPS satellites are flying in lower earth orbits, and are constantly moving over and around you. They are not fixed relative to you the same way a geosynchronous satellite is (like the DirecTV satellites.) So even if the weather patterns could be precisely measured and figured out, they would be meaningless as soon as the satellite moved - and they're always moving very, very fast.

      Differential-GPS improves accuracy by having a mounted GPS receiver at a precisely surveyed point, then transmitting (via FM) the "error difference" between what is derived from the GPS system and the surveyed coordinates. If the error at a particular time is 3 meters at the DGPS antenna, then the error at any other GPS receiver in the area is probably pretty close to 3 meters at that same time (assuming the weather patterns are similar between you and the DGPS antenna.)

      You can indeed leave a GPS fixed in a point and average the readings to reduce the margin of uncertainty, but you'll never achieve the high accuracy needed for surveying.

      --
      John
    12. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by ptbarnett · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Doesn't matter.. you aren't going to get better than 10m accuracy without DGPS and 1m with it. Surveys have to be right to centimetres - no GPS can do that.

      Yes, they can. They just aren't consumer handheld GPS receivers:

      http://www.trimble.com/survey/GNSS-Surveying-Systems.aspx

      They don't give instant position: they accumulate data over a period of time and use that to derive the exact position, usually after correcting it with a comparable stream of data collected from a nearby known reference point.

      Under ideal situations the accuracy of GPS equipment can approach 5 millimeter[...]

    13. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by iroll · · Score: 2, Informative

      The engineers at Trimble would probably take issue with that statement, since they sell high-dollar ($10~$100k) survey equipment that produces reliable >0.1' accuracy (wikipedia states 20mm as a working number). I worked with equipment in 2003 that was at least 5 yrs old then, and it was that good. The key, as other posters have mentioned, is a base station and some fancy calculations that make it possible.

      I'm pretty sure that this equipment has been around since well before the Clinton administration ended the obfuscation/degradation of GPS signals; it just isn't practical for your typical consumer gear.

      --
      Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
    14. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 2, Informative

      That is why surveyors buy surveyor GPS gear. The shit ain't cheap, but when you want centimeter accuracy, you have to buck up.

      http://www.trimble.com/survey/GNSS-Surveying-Systems.aspx

      Basically, you set up your own local differential GPS station that sits for a while and figures out its position to a very high degree of accuracy.

      You then use very accurate devices capable of sub meter accuracy with time averaging and DGPS, and use the signal from the local station to get even better accuracy than that.

      Getting accurate positions for surveying isn't that hard, since you can time average, add local DGPS stations and correct the data even after its been collected. You just need the gear.

      Now if you want real time tracking with sub meter accuracy, that is very hard.

    15. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Moreover, Galileo is designed for cite).

    16. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by digitig · · Score: 3, Informative

      Except that's now how surveyors survey. Yes, DGPS has errors in absolute position, but surveyors use triangulation from fixed points. Surveyors are routinely using relative positions of a pair or network of receivers using phase tracking to get centimeter accuracy. This isn't fancy military stuff, it's off-the-shelf civilian kit you could buy today. It's differential, but not as you know it.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    17. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by ll1234 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The DGPS system at Libby Dam in Montana is accurate to 1-mm vertically:

      Performance Monitoring Of Libby Dam With A Differential Global Positioning System UNITED STATES SOCIETY OF DAMS (JUNE 2005)

    18. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/CORS
      Collect a few hours worth of data, wait two weeks for the precise ephemerides to come out and you have got yourself accuracy on the centimeter level.

    19. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by plover · · Score: 1

      Oh, cool! Thanks!

      --
      John
    20. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if the margin of error were truly random, the signal could be off by a trillion miles. . .

    21. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NAVSTAR GPS is very far from a low earth orbit. Low earth orbit is 200 - 2,000 km. NAVSTAR orbit is approximately 11,000 nautical miles!

    22. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by hughk · · Score: 1

      You can indeed leave a GPS fixed in a point and average the readings to reduce the margin of uncertainty, but you'll never achieve the high accuracy needed for surveying.

      I have relatives who were there for the first triangulation of Ireland and West Africa. I first looked through a theodolite aged about 5 and helped my father with surveys since I was 10. You could say that it is the blood.

      Survey is about measurement from and back to a fixed point. Surveyors used to use trig points, typically on mountain or hill tops and so-called bench marks. Bench marks exist in built-up areas and are simply known locations where you stick an optical instrument. You meausre things relative to the instrument.

      So what happens when you build out of town, say a road, pipeline or whatever. You need to link back to a known reference point such as a trig point. Sometime that can be difficult and you have to survey multiple 'legs'. Theodolites measured angles, these became extended toi give range, by optical rangefinding (split prisms and horizontal staves), by microwaves and later by lasers. The main innovation there was the creation of the total station which captured data directly for input into a computer system for creating the digital ground model.

      The important innovation that GPS gave was to free up the first fixed point. Note first that some kinds of compensation are needed because the earth isn't a perfect sphere, but aside from that, leave a survey grade GPS running so it can average the passes and it will get cm level accuracy. This can then kick out DGPS which the surveyors can use with those funny back-pack units which will fix their position relative to the base station to a matter of centimetres. The surveyor simply adds commentary to say what the point is that they have just digitised. For greater accuracy, they use laser based units to measure back to the fixed point (I belive it will give you a better Z axis) but the base remains GPS.

      As the base needs a long time to stabilise, and they are quite expensive other fixed points are still used to locate the base, especially if there is already some construction around. So in cities, you will usually see purely optical methods used.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    23. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, GPS sats are in the middle of Medium Earth Orbit, far far away from LEO.

      https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Medium_Earth_orbit

    24. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      1/4 mile of new fence had to be moved at a cost of $10,000 and lawyer/surveyor fees of $25,000 over the fence been 5 feet out. The land in question later was sold for $60,000. What a waste of money

      Even if the eventual owner had to pay the fees, that's hardly a waste of money. Looks more like a 25k profit to me.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    25. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Random != boundless.

      Throw 2D6 and the result is random, but it's never less than 2 or more 12.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    26. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by maeka · · Score: 1

      FWIW, I've never seen even 5mm of difference between the precise ephemerids and the ultra-rapid ones.

      One of the major advantages of GPS vs GLONASS is that GPS has six ground tracking stations, a satellite is never out of ground view. GLONASS, on the other hand, only uses one ground tracking station and therefore the vehicles are "out of sight" most of the time. This means any orbital deviation is likely unnoticed.

    27. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by maeka · · Score: 1

      FWIW, I've never seen even 5mm of difference between the precise ephemerids and the ultra-rapid ones.

      One of the major advantages of GPS vs GLONASS is that GPS has six ground tracking stations, a satellite is never out of ground view. GLONASS, on the other hand, only uses one ground tracking station and therefore the vehicles are "out of sight" most of the time. This means any orbital deviation is likely unnoticed, and makes it hard to defend the use of GLONASS in court.

    28. Re:Surveyors are going to start having problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live on a farm and we have had 1 to 2 cm accurate GPS for probably 5 years. We have our own base station that is broadcasting corrections. The quote from John Deere is that their system is accurate to 1" 95% of the time repeatable year to year. The primary use for this is not surveying but rather automatic guidance of tractors and other farm implements.

      Many of the high tech farming companies provide guidance solutions. Off the top of my head there is John Deere, AgCo, Trimble, Outback, and Case.

      Another interesting quirk, when we invaded Iraq / Afghanistan one of the GPS satellites was diverted and we would have a time in the evening that we would have to reboot our base station because it was looking for a missing satellite.

  7. That's OK. By then GLONASS will be fully operation by melted · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's OK. By then Russian GLONASS will be fully operational and both the Europeans and the Chinese are thinking of launching their own satellite navigation systems. Out of these three, chances are at least one will be available for the US to use in case of a global conflict.

  8. This is like the Millenium Bug by macraig · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Plenty of people anticipated this, but nobody has given a shit enough about it to do anything substantial. I was first hearing warnings about this years ago. As a programmer, I anticipated the Millenium Bug almost 20 years beforehand, and refused to take those shortcuts that everyone else thought were wise. Back on the GPS Ranch, meanwhile, the EU is busy putting its own superior system in place, in part because they don't want to be dependent upon our system, esp. if and when we fuck up and fail to keep it operational.

    Just one more reason to move to Europe.

    1. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by quanticle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why move to Europe? I mean, its not like they'll not be restricting the system so that it only works over Europe. Why not just buy a Galileo receiver (when they become available)?

      Also, isn't Galileo supposed to be backwards compatible with GPS?

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    2. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by evangellydonut · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I was first hearing warnings about this years ago.

      Hmm... years ago, Boeing wasn't 3 years behind on launch schedule, and we wouldn't have this issue. If the AirForce had known 3 years ago, they would've exercised some option to build more IIMR builds. Boeing kept on pushing the launch date back, 3 months at a time, and here we are.

    3. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by RetroGeek · · Score: 1

      As a programmer, I anticipated the Millenium Bug almost 20 years beforehand

      So did I. But some companies still wanted two digit years because it was "too hard" to enter four digit years.

      In 1998 I made a killing :-)

      --

      - - - - - - - - - - -
      I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
    4. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a programmer, I anticipated the Millenium Bug almost 20 years beforehand, and refused to take those shortcuts that everyone else thought were wise.

      And exactly how much money did you make by updating your software to be year 2000 compatible... oh wait you didn't.

      Which choice was wise is a matter of perspective.

      And just for the record, I noticed this issue as well in the 7th grade when I first started programming on my Tandy (it had color, and sound!). And so did several other classmates. I actually mentioned it to a programmer who my parents knew, guess what he said? "Most of that software will be abandoned long before 2000, and whatever is left over will be easy money for guys like me." He then went on to say "Why make my life more difficult now, especially when I can make more money later?".

      And that pretty much sums up the whole Y2K thing.

    5. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by saiha · · Score: 1

      Its been a long time since I've looked into Galileo but I would have to say that the positioning is done virtually the same as GPS. Though I think galileo probably has more orders of ephemeris data. The basics are the satellite gives you enough info for you to figure out where it is, then you find the distance from you to the satellite and triangulate your position.

    6. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, you are an idiot.

      Second, the US has been holding Europe's hand for over a decade now because they couldn't figure out how to make a GPS system themselves.

    7. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      I'm sure everyoone's delighted to hear how much more intelligent you are than everyone else! Congratulations, I'm sure your mom is proud.

      "EU is busy putting its own superior system in place"
      Really? How many satellites (of 30) have they lofted again?

      It looks more to me like the EU is pissing and moaning and backstabbing each other to leave Galileo a boondoggle that will only allegedly fly by 2013. One might argue that the US system, being actually operational, is far more likely to be upgraded on-time than the Galileo system which is still mostly EU promises and vaporware.

      And as far as "superior" (in case you mean it technically, and not just morally), I'll remind you that some of the US GPS satellites have been in space nearly TWENTY years. One might logically presume that a system two decades newer might have some newer better features, but I'd also guess that the GPS block 3(?) upgrade will be fairly comprehensive (and if you think SA is really disabled, I have some swampland in Florida I can sell you).

      I'd say however, that we'd be nevertheless delighted if you took all these good reasons to move to Europe as an invitation. Please don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. K'thx.

      --
      -Styopa
    8. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by plover · · Score: 4, Funny

      As a programmer, I anticipated the Millenium Bug almost 20 years beforehand

      So did I. But some companies still wanted two digit years because it was "too hard" to enter four digit years.

      In 1998 I made a killing :-)

      Ha! I made my killing in 98, not 1998.

      --
      John
    9. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      I'm like you, dude! Incredible foresight!

      I submitted a bug to Macromedia back when Flash 5 had just came around. I told them the version checking code fragment listed on their site wouldn't work once they hit Flash 10, and submitted code that looked for a space or a digit after the first number.

      They never did update it. Years later, when Flash 10 was finally released, any .swf files using the old actionscript broke, reporting you have to upgrade your flash player despite having the newest one. :P

      Some developers are incompetent and can't think ahead. Others just don't care. To some people, it's just a way to pay the bills, rather than an art...

    10. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by macraig · · Score: 1

      I know I heard of it before I moved where I live now, and that would place it more than three years ago. I don't think I heard it from Slashdot the first time around. The source might have been my uncle (well-connected aerospace engineer, worked @ China Lake, Lockheed, JPL).

    11. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by digitig · · Score: 1

      I think you'll find that the first European GPS-like system -- GLONASS -- was done with very little help from the USA.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    12. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GLONASS is the Russian system, so yes technically "European" but not collaboratively.

    13. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by radtea · · Score: 1

      If the AirForce had known 3 years ago, they would've exercised some option to build more IIMR builds.

      Or not. It should be of real concern to Americans that you are no longer able to credibly execute long-term plans at the government level. This is a bi-partisan issue.

      The recent closing of Yucca Mountain is an unfortunate example of this. It should never have been the selected site due to geotechnical issues, and it should not have been allowed to dominate the waste disposal landscape for so many years and then close.

      The Space Shuttle is nearing retirement with no plausible replacement in sight. Many of your military projects are way over budget and may never deliver the goods.

      This is not a partisan issue. Many of these problems have persisted across administrations and changes in congressional control. I don't know what the issue is with you guys, but the rest of the world would really like you to get your act together and return to the "can do" republic you once were.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    14. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't wait until 9999 to do it all over again!

    15. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by electrosoccertux · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Why move to Europe? I mean, its not like they'll not be restricting the system so that it only works over Europe. Why not just buy a Galileo receiver (when they become available)?

      Also, isn't Galileo supposed to be backwards compatible with GPS?

      The whole move to Europe thing is usually someone ranting about fat US people or something. Fact is, proven by the strengthening of the US dollar against the Euro since the recession, the world considers the US and US currency a safer place to store their money than in Europe. Europe has banking, and few other serious industries. That's why they were hit so hard with this housing collapse. Double whammy because people stopped traveling so much. Venice would die first, what would they produce? I mean do they even have internet there? The entire city is nothing but one giant romantically-overrated tourist attraction.

    16. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      I'd move to Iraq if I were you. I'll bet it has better American satellite coverage than Europe.

    17. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Ya you can criticize GPS all you like but the fact remains it was doing global positioning before anyone else and it's only competitor (GLONASS) was military only. Remember the first satellite was launched in 1978, the system was usable to a degree in 1993, and was fully online in 1995. Since then it has become the primary method for navigation on pretty much any commercial craft. They have backups, of course, but GPS is what is used primarily because it is more accurate.

      I think there's some credit to be given out for that. Sure, it is easy to talk about a GNSS now, the immense value has been proven to justify the large expense. However, where were the European nations back in the 80s and 90s? Well they, quite reasonably I might add, didn't see there being a need for spending money to develop such a thing. However the US poured a ton of money in to it, and gave the world an extremely valuable product.

      So while Galileo may well be more advanced if it ever gets launched, GPS is the reason for it in the first place. The EU nations have seen how useful GPS is, and are rightly concerned about being reliant on a technology owned by the US military.

    18. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by ergo98 · · Score: 1

      Plenty of people anticipated this, but nobody has given a shit enough about it to do anything substantial.

      It's always about fighting for a piece of the budget pie. It's unlikely that GPS will degrade, though really the world community should be paying a piece of the cost for it (maybe that's why the US constantly withholds their UN payment -- it's an advance on GPS).

      Back on the GPS Ranch, meanwhile, the EU is busy putting its own superior system in place, in part because they don't want to be dependent upon our system

      The GPS first started getting deployed in, what, 1978? Is it a surprise that someone starting at zero 30 years later could make a better system?

      And anyways -- GPS seems to work pretty frickin' amazingly well.

      And yeah, Europe wants their own because the US retains SA rights on GPS, with the ability to encrypt or degrade GPS in areas of the globe by switching a toggle. No kidding people don't like that, but don't pretend that it's because the leaches are morally superior or something.

    19. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a programmer, I anticipated the Millenium Bug almost 20 years beforehand

      So did I. But some companies still wanted two digit years because it was "too hard" to enter four digit years.

      In 1998 I made a killing :-)

      Ha! I made my killing in 98, not 1998.

      His programming worked, yours didn't.

    20. Re:This is like the Millenium Bug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      solar event will cause transient events that will recover in a few seconds.

      I worked for a railroad, the western component of the first transcontinental railway. The systems in our land department were Y2K compliant years in advance.

      In the 1950s, someone noticed that some of our property was being valued for taxes as though it were a recent acquisition. Oops, we had acquired it in the 1850s, not the 1950s. From then on, all records in the land department carried four-digit years.

  9. Hardware can fail? by Bellegante · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This isn't news. The article simply says that there have been problems getting new satellites in orbit; but the ones that are there are functioning fine. Yes, they COULD fail, but they haven't done so yet, and there isn't yet any indication that they will.

    Move along, move along.

    1. Re:Hardware can fail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually the GPS satellites aren't failing fast enough. It's my understanding that the Air Force has multiple satellite sitting on the ground waiting to launch but the ones on orbit aren't dying fast enough (some of them are already at twice their design life and still going strong)

      I was also under the impression that there are currently 29 satellites in orbit, which means that 5 would have to fail before we even get down to a constellation of 24, and they can launch spares before that happens!

  10. Ha HA to all you nay sayers! by The+Outlander · · Score: 0, Redundant

    You see, you all laughed at my iPhones inability to guide me safely through the streets.

    It just goes to show that my iPhone is so advanced you guys are not going to catch up with my tech until 2010!

    EAT THAT SUCKERS

  11. Not if using a transmitter on the earth's surface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you have a ground-based transmitter reference, gps can be accurate to within centimeters in 3D space.

  12. what would you pay for gps? by docbrody · · Score: 1, Interesting

    When you think about it, GPS is a pretty cool "service" that the US government supplies for free to the world. Obviously tom toms, garmins, etc, cost money but the service itself is free (And NO I am not trying to start a political flame war here, i just think GPS is cool)

    People pay for satellite radio. If we were not all so accustomed to free GPS, I wonder how many of us would pay a monthly fee for it.

    Personally, I don't use GPS enough to even pay $1 a month for it. But I might not mind paying an extra sales tax when I buy a GPS enabled device - something that goes to maintaining the satellites.

    1. Re:what would you pay for gps? by saiha · · Score: 1

      I already pay for GPS in my taxes. Yes people who don't pay taxes and people who don't pay taxes to the US government still get to use it. But seeing as how easy it is to make a GPS device now, I doubt that non-US citizens would pay an extra tax for it /shrug.

    2. Re:what would you pay for gps? by jargon82 · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why parent is modded down... Anyone?

    3. Re:what would you pay for gps? by Jon+Abbott · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure either. Strangely, the post still displayed even though my filter was set to not show posts modded at 0. I guess it's a glitch in the Matrix.

    4. Re:what would you pay for gps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand why parent is modded down... Anyone?

      Because he didn't say anything bad about the U.S.A. Whenever you refer to America on /. you either have to slag it or refer to it as "Amerika", like it's a pseudo-communist state.

      Don't worry about it. In a few years it'll be all trendy to slag France again and we can all once again forget about the size of America's penis.

    5. Re:what would you pay for gps? by docbrody · · Score: 1

      but i didn't really say anything that is that Pro USA did I? I mean if you really look at what I wrote.

    6. Re:what would you pay for gps? by docbrody · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I already pay for GPS in my taxes. Yes people who don't pay taxes and people who don't pay taxes to the US government still get to use it. But seeing as how easy it is to make a GPS device now, I doubt that non-US citizens would pay an extra tax for it /shrug.

      but hypothetically, how much would you pay?
      Just curious what people think its worth... say for example if the US privatized it and some corporation charged a monthly fee or licensed access to hardware manufacturers (which of course would result in the cost being passed onto consumers). Personally I might pay like $20 extra dollars for a device (1 time), but I would not pay even $1 monthly 'cause the last thing I need is another bill to keep track of.

    7. Re:what would you pay for gps? by saiha · · Score: 1

      Thats the problem though. You can get a GPS chip (minimal programming, no maps) for a few bucks now. So the work is split between the satellites and the mapping.

      Would something like $1 buck be enough? (~20% tax on the gps chip) Probably not. What about a 1% tax on all GPS devices. So that would be a ~5c for a chip, $1.50 for an inexpensive device all the way to ~$7 for a top of the line system.

      The biggest issue though would be fleets and how it affects their pricing, I have 0 idea of any impact (if any) something like this would have on them.

      Other funding for this would obviuosly then come from both the NASA, FFA and Military budgets. To be honest though I'm not sure if the overhead of creating a separate tax would be worth it. But if it were then somewhere between 5 and 8 dollars is what I would be willing to pay, hypothetically of course.

  13. Looks like... by owlnation · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    a job for the Dharma Initiative...

  14. Daniel Jackson by ijakings · · Score: 1

    We should be fine as long as we dont let Daniel Jackson Get ahold of them

    1. Re:Daniel Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't have permission to access /gallery/albums/screencaps/season 4/417 Absolute Power/PDVD_177.jpg on this server.

      Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

      That is a rocking picture!!!!

    2. Re:Daniel Jackson by JoshuaZ · · Score: 1

      The link is not working. I presume it is however a reference to the Stargate SG-1 episode where Daniel Jackson is given all the technological knowledge of the Gouald (the primary alien menace for most of the series) and he is then corrupted into building a massive set of death ray satellites above Earth which he uses to unite Earth more or less under his control (after frying Moscow among other activities). At the end of the episode we find out that it was all in his mind and was a lesson from a boddhisatva like alien energy being.

  15. You can't touch military spending. by copponex · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They defend "freedom."

    I'm all for opening up completely the books of any government subcontractor. If you don't like transparency, then don't take government contracts. It may be tough to police, with companies trying to cheat with subsidiaries, but I think the payoff would be enormous.

    On 9/10/2001, Rumsfeld gave a speech about wasteful military spending. Check it out in print, or a small piece on CBS. There was a link to his whole speech years ago - I don't know where that went. In it he states that up to 2.3 trillion dollars is "unaccounted" for, whatever that means. If you read between the lines, he is pushing for privatization of the military. We all know how well that worked out.

    1. Re:You can't touch military spending. by ktappe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On 9/10/2001, Rumsfeld gave a speech about wasteful military spending

      Given his position as Secretary of Defense, he was in the best possible position to fix the woes he spoke of. How'd that work out? It's funny how you fail to fix problems when you have a financial interest in not seeing them fixed. Sure would be interesting to see a full accounting of Rumsfeld's and Cheney's accounts these days, and just how much Northrup Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Halliburton all enhanced their retirements.....

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    2. Re:You can't touch military spending. by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      I'd rather spend the money.

      If nothing else the spending provides a market for engineering new, more efficient uses of current technology, and it employs the brighter minds in work that can be immediately rewarding (for example defense contractors involved in rapid prototyping-- design, build, and test in about 6 months, work the kinks out, and mass produce 3 months later. These contractors have had a very real impact on the lives of soldiers in Iraq-- they can report and say "hey if we had something that could do XYZ, we'd crap our pants 40% less in situations similar to X Y and Z, which were a majority of our encounters on the field; then the contractor can design and build and produce something that fills that need very rapidly).

    3. Re:You can't touch military spending. by Martin+Blank · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Rumsfeld did have ideas which would have lowered overall spending had they succeeded. However, they flew in the face of thousands of years of military history, and are seen as having been instrumental in what was eventually a rather unceremonious exit. He essentially wanted to go to an all-Special Forces military, with only a few legacy systems for those cases when a couple of massive non-nuclear punches were required. I don't know if he watched Navy Seals one too many times, but nothing replaces boots on the ground when you want to hold ground -- something that Special Forces are not intended to do.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    4. Re:You can't touch military spending. by SlashWombat · · Score: 1

      Ha Ha. The only thing that might take only 9 months from concept to deployment within the military would be a steel washer. If its electronic, the mere fact that it needs to pass stringent EMC/EMI requirements plus the enclosure requirements, etc, are enough to ensure that even a "simple" project will take several years!

      If this were not the case, the military personnel would actually be better off. IE: instead of the heavy radio transceiver used by the army, it would be cheaper (and arguably better) to give each soldier a mobile phone (or even better, a mobile phone/computing device) and deploy several cellular base stations in the target area.

    5. Re:You can't touch military spending. by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      "worked", past tense ? I wasn't aware the american military was a private corporation ?

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    6. Re:You can't touch military spending. by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      They're already open. A huge part of any government contract is paperwork, accounting, auditing, and program management.

      It's EXTREMELY rare, if not impossible, for a contractor in today's environment to outright bilk the customer. There are simply too many rules and regulations in place. In many cases, when a program gets into that much trouble, the customer is as much to blame as the supplier.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    7. Re:You can't touch military spending. by copponex · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It hasn't been totally privatized yet. But if a private contractor pays a truck driver $300,000 a year to drive a route that the US Army also runs, but only pays their driver $40,000, it doesn't take too much math to figure out who's getting fucked over.

      Additionally, authorizing private mercenaries to kill outside of the chain of American military command is totally immoral. It's already led to major conflicts with the Iraqi government, who are understandably upset when non-uniformed men shoot up a public square for no reason, killing women and children, and then speed off without concern.

  16. What about Geocaching!? by mc1138 · · Score: 1, Funny

    Every nerds favorite hobby could be in jeopardy!

    1. Re:What about Geocaching!? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      You know, you can do geocaching with a topo map. You don't actually need a fancy electric toy.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:What about Geocaching!? by natebarney · · Score: 1
  17. One System to Rule Them All by RudeIota · · Score: 0

    Best not to rely entirely on one system anyway.

    Okay, so I'll just use that other GPS system.

    Oh, wait a second...

    --
    Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
  18. Everyone's favorite hobby. by RudeIota · · Score: 1

    "What about Goecaching!?"
    Every nerds favorite hobby could be in jeopardy!

    "Everyone" is subjective, "hobby" is misleading and "favorite" is relative... very relative. ;)

    --
    Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
    1. Re:Everyone's favorite hobby. by mpoulton · · Score: 4, Funny

      "What about Goecaching!?" Every nerds favorite hobby could be in jeopardy!

      "Everyone" is subjective, "hobby" is misleading and "favorite" is relative... very relative. ;)

      "nerd" was right on, however.

      --
      I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
    2. Re:Everyone's favorite hobby. by mc1138 · · Score: 1

      Haha fair enough, still, not totally sure what makes this flamebait...

  19. In other words: by the_other_chewey · · Score: 0, Redundant

    GPS Accuracy Could Start Dropping In 2010

    ...or maybe not.

  20. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by j-stroy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A friends mom escaped the wreck of a 90ft Fish Packer as it hit the rocks at night in a passage with strong currents due to a problem caused by relying on GPS. It was due to something like how it derived the heading vs the direction of travel or some-such.

    Moral of the story was that using static ground stations like LORAN, this would not have occurred. Anyhow, now ground stations have been dismantled and vessel's receivers scrapped and there is nothing groundbased to replace GPS with should GPS fail. High altitude communications aircraft seem viable; however, there again is a reliance on something that is not physically bolted down and easily fixable.

    An interesting footnote is mentioned by Buckminster Fuller in his 50 year summation masterwork "Critical Path": on pages 186-7. The Americans started their radio-accurate mapping from Compass Island in Penobscot Bay in Maine, and proceeded by radio triangulation to work their way down to South America, across the Atlantic and up Africa to Europe. This was needed for accurately guiding bombers above the clouds, as the ground survey maps were often 10's of miles incorrect.

    The Germans had done this as well for Europe and perhaps Russia, so when Berlin fell, the Russians went in early and took the German mapping data. Russia had radio-accurate maps of all of Europe and published data from the US, while the US did not have maps of Russia. This lead to the importance in the cold war of US spy planes and satellites for basic mapping for targeting ICBM's, including as suggested by Fuller a US presence in Iran and Afghanistan as radio triangulation bases. Russia performed massive deceptions of fake cities and so on to perpetuate this information gradient.

  21. Will software defined receivers be common? by ShooterNeo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are the 3 different GPS systems being proposed (U.S., Galileo, a possibly Russian system) be broadcasting on frequencies close enough to each other that receivers that use all 3 systems will be common and fit into cell phones?

    That would be the best outcome : software defined receivers that can pick up a signal from any satellite positioning signal in the sky : GPS, wide area differential GPS, Galileo, everything. Massive redundancy would mean that if you were to go between buildings or even inside buildings, there would be a greater chance that at least some of the satellites were still visible.

    Everything that depends on global positioning would work better : from airline navigation systems to X prize landers.

  22. Not a normal event, but an exceptional one by Chmcginn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    solar event will cause transient events that will recover in a few seconds

    A normal event, sure. But a repeat of the 1859 solar flare would likely damage many satellites not in the Earth's shadow at the height of the impact. Is the whole GPS constellation set up to handle that type of event? Or would more than half the satellites go down in a hour?

    --
    Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
    1. Re:Not a normal event, but an exceptional one by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      With it being an approximately once in five hundred year event according to the page that you linked, I don't think it's such a big problem yet.

    2. Re:Not a normal event, but an exceptional one by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      solar event will cause transient events that will recover in a few seconds

      A normal event, sure. But a repeat of the 1859 solar flare would likely damage many satellites not in the Earth's shadow at the height of the impact. Is the whole GPS constellation set up to handle that type of event? Or would more than half the satellites go down in a hour?

      Of more concern is the electrical grid. There was a hot topic on the internet for some reason recently, probably someone pulling some strings hoping to get the populace worked up about our power infrastructure so that Obama could come in and save us. The money wouldn't have even gone to fixing that problem, it would have gone to rebuilding transmission line infrastructure that is terribly close to falling apart. Nevermind that the whole problem was caused in the first place by a congress thinking that running electricity across the nation is like piping gas, you send it down on pipe and it comes out the other end. (Shameless hands-off plug-- if congress would fix the legislation then the carriers would be able to profit [right now it's impossible to collect anything more than revenue, so there is no incentive to upgrade or improve the structure, only to spend for the mandatory fixes. Of course congress isn't bothered by this, because it means they'll be able to come in and save us and look all good and stuff).

    3. Re:Not a normal event, but an exceptional one by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      That doesn't mean it occurs on a regular 500 year cycle.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Not a normal event, but an exceptional one by jastus · · Score: 1

      The space-weather phenomenon that is most likely to damage GPS satellites is spacecraft charging, a build-up of very high voltages within the spacecraft due to differential charging by high-energy particules. These voltage differences can result in sudden discharges, much like a lightning bolt, inside the spacecraft. Problem is that this seems to be more of a problem for satellites in lower orbits than GPS. It remains to be seen whether or not this will be a major problem for GPS, even in a large geomagnetic disturbance such as the one that followed the 1859 flare.

      A more subtle impact might be small changes in the GPS orbits due to changes in drag on the satellite by increased local particle density should the shock from the CME push the magnetosphere in far enough to put the GPS satellites outside the magnetosphere and into the solar wind. These changes will result in short-term GPS errors, as the satellites won't be where they are expected to be. This, however, can be fixed fairly quickly by correcting the orbits and the orbit elements from which the expected positions are calculated.

  23. A non-story by Politicus · · Score: 1

    WAAS is the limiting factor in most units and most cases (near urban areas) so this is a non-story. Besides, the people going for those kind of caches are experienced at reading environmental clues anyways, so not much effect there either.

    --
    Politicus
  24. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    Some people in aviation are using a combination of the two. They locally transmit an offset to GPS, based on the known position of a fixed GPS reciever.

  25. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by digitig · · Score: 5, Informative

    A friends mom escaped the wreck of a 90ft Fish Packer as it hit the rocks at night in a passage with strong currents due to a problem caused by relying on GPS. It was due to something like how it derived the heading vs the direction of travel or some-such.

    Something wrong there. Both LORAN and GPS only give position (GPS gives time too, but that doesn't help here). Direction of travel is determined in both systems by taking the difference in position over a known time interval. GPS can give heading by using the phase difference between receivers on different parts of the vessel, whereas the wavelength of LORAN was probably too long for that to work. Upshot is, a problem involving headings and direction of travel isn't the fault of GPS, and using LORAN would have been no defence. It may have been a problem with the GPS receiver software, but LORAN calculations could go wrong too. Most likely it was a navigator not understanding the systems they had.

    --
    Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  26. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

    Don't ships' navigators still train on sextants and chronometers?!?!?

    I don't know if it's a holdover from my days as a boy scout or what, but I almost always have a backup, and a backup of the backup of anything critical to my survival. And if I ever get rich enough to own my own ocean-going vessel, *I* sure wouldn't put to sea without a sextant and the training to use it. And I'm just some not-a-professional-ship's-navigator schmuck.

    --
    Imagine all the people...
  27. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by timeOday · · Score: 1

    It was due to something like how it derived the heading vs the direction of travel or some-such. Moral of the story was that using static ground stations like LORAN, this would not have occurred.

    You can't draw that conclusion until you know what went wrong with the gps-based system, and what goes wrong with ground-based system. It's not as if the obvious alternative to a flawed system is using a perfect system instead, or even a (more complex) combination of systems.

  28. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by j-stroy · · Score: 1

    I don't remember the detail of the story; However, the point of it being a failure due to GPS issue was relayed by my friend (the daughter). The vessel was a packer named "The Salty Isle" and is known by some in the BC area. The seafood-diver fleet was in the area and made a midnight storm rescue of all hands from a nasty rock.

    I seem to recall that the amount of current in the passage (at night) was the problem, and that the drift was not noted by the Skipper with the GPS instrument because of a constant reading, whereas with their LORAN set, a drift would have been noted by a varying value. Ya can tear it apart and IANAGPSLORANO, sorry.

    But do read Critical Path, it is worthwhile, including Fuller's description of a Geoscope which it seems Google Earth is modelled after.

  29. Government problem solution... commercial sector. by blantonl · · Score: 1

    It sounds to me like a cry for help directed to the public sector, from the US Government.

    Imagine a subscription/license service for a geo-location broadcast platform from space that is unrestricted to users and as accurate as science knows how to make such things "accurate." How much do you think that license would be worth?

    Scary? Absolutely.

    Possible? More Absolutely!

    There is serious money in geo-location today. Not just to target nuclear warhead.. if you call that a business.

    --
    Lindsay Blanton
    RadioReference.com
  30. You're only a few hundred years off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    > Thats why I never accept apologies. If they were really sorry they wouldn't have done it in the first place.

    Wait. You think that John Paul II (or anyone else alive today) was the one who put Galileo on trial!? Or do you use that strange variant of the word "they" which lumps together both guilty and innocent alike (AKA "guilt by association").

    1. Re:You're only a few hundred years off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're complaining about "guilt by association" regarding a proclamation by the Catholic Church, inventors of such doctrine as "Papal Infallibility"? Seriously?

  31. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by digitig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Direction of travel is determined in both systems by taking the difference in position over a known time interval.

    Sorry, I should have said velocity is determined in both systems by taking the difference in position over a known time interval. For direction of travel the time interval doesn't matter of course.

    --
    Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  32. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by j-stroy · · Score: 1

    Direction of travel is not the same as Heading. Heading (the direction the vessel is pointed) can be different than direction of travel at sea, or in the air due to movement of the water/air itself.

  33. Galileo, Figaro! by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

    Ah, and you all laughed when Europe started to launch Galileo sats. Haha!

    Yes, because we broke out the Queen. Magnifico.

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
  34. Load of crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry to say it but this is a complete load of @#$$e

    Re: What happens if GPS fails(or gets turned off)

    Other countries have asked this question post cold war when GPS was scrambled to be 100m accurate for end users.. as there are two Functional systems operating at this point in time.

    GPS(Yanks)
    GLONASS(Russians)

    In test mode there is
    The EU has 2 test satellites in their Galileo Constellation
    and China has 2 test Sats in the COMPASS Constellation
    India is also setting up there own geostatiary system

    As per Quantity of Sats:
    There is currently 30 GPS satellites in orbit and they are being updated all the time with the newer L5 and L2C signals to have a fuly functional system it is required to have 24 but there is a few spares up to enhance the system in poor environments. Not to mention Dual constellation GNSS systems that is used in Survey Construction and Ag already where in the southern hemisphere you see up to 19 sats at a time(Iâ(TM)ve seen once). Now imagine the urban canyon with that many satelites once recreational GPS takes up GNSS..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_III

    As per the accuracy of GPS..

    That wonâ(TM)t happen due to the control segment dropping the ball as they have ground based monitoring on all of the different continental shelfs(eg Australia moves 70mm NE every year)
    http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/status_and_outage_info.htm

    The biggest problem for recreational(single freq) GPS accuracy is the current solar cycle increasing the activity in the ionosphere as this is the key contributor to GPS being less accurate.
    http://www.ips.gov.au/Educational/1/3/10

  35. I would have commented sooner but... by zerosumgame · · Score: 1

    I had trouble finding the place... ba-dum-bump...:-) I'll be here all night folks -- try the veal!

  36. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    USCG LORAN stations are still operating.

    http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/Loran/default.htm

  37. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not all the world is US, LORAN is being discontinued in many places due to GPS being "free".

  38. European System by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Get a GPS system that also uses the European system. Europe put up their own satellite GPS system specifically because the US threatened to 'pull the plug' at various times. The EU uses GPS for navigation (ships, planes, rail, trucks, etc.). They wanted something that they could rely on, of their own. The US was quite sour when they announced the project, and was even more sour when deployment started here. Not being the only game in town means the monopoly is broken. Suddenly the US isn't the windshield, and the EU isn't the bug. Suddenly, things just keep working. Suddenly hasty American action only harms American citizens the most. A third system would help more. Maybe Chinese. You would get at least minimal service at all times.

  39. Yes!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its about time there was some good news!!!
    The governments increased inability to track me is good news indeed.

  40. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by alannon · · Score: 1

    Direction of travel is called Bearing. A plain GPS device can give you bearing, but not heading. Many handheld GPS devices include a solid-state magnetic compass, though.

  41. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "(GPS gives time too, but that doesn't help here)"

    You can derive time from LORAN. It just isn't up front about it like GPS.

    "Upshot is, a problem involving headings and direction of travel isn't the fault of GPS, and using LORAN would have been no defence"

    Sounds to me like the original problem, given neither GPS or LORAN does heading or direction of travel implicitly, is either in the interpretation by the device being used, or in the signal being received. If the former, that's the fault of the manufacturer.

    To me though, it sounds like the latter, and if so, it most certainly is the fault of GPS (even though LORAN has its own set of issues) because it's implicit with older GNSS which includes GPS. GPS signals are not strong or always available or received being satellite and requiring lines to the sat. Yeah, people may THINK they are always getting a signal, when they get directions walking to a restaurant with their iphone or with their car's TomTom, but GPS signals often degrade, are weak, you can't find a satellite, etc.

    LORAN is certainly not as accurate as GPS. Even eLORAN isn't as good as unenhanced GPS (it's very close). Still, LORAN is intended to be a backup, and being land based gives a more reliable and stronger signal to be received than GPS. It's the position info is crappy, and lots of things degrade it, but it's usually received.

    It's a tradeoff, and why both systems should remain.

  42. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

    You don't have to be a professional navigator to use a clock and sextant. In fact, years ago, I have been in a situation where salt and water worked their usual magic on a brand new LORAN system (this was 10 years before GPS became available), so I had to rely on them for most of the long trip. But doing it the old way is nearly as good.

    It's not so much fun in bad weather, though, when you can't see the sun, stars or horizon. Dead-reckoning is sometimes little better than guessing.

  43. More than GPS by proudfoot · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's more than just GPS.

    Here's a listing of all current/proposed global systems. Regional only systems such as IRNSS or Beidou1 are not listed.

    GPS - United States - Fully Operation
    Galileo - EU/China/Israel/South Korea/Norway/Etc - 2013
    Beidou2/Compass - China - 2012?
    GLONASS/ - Russia/India - Complete in 2010

  44. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by XDirtypunkX · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_GPS

    What gives you the impression they're getting rid of ground stations?

  45. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

    Actual direction of travel is called course. A bearing is the direction from one point to another.

    --
    You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
  46. why isnt this automated? by Bizzeh · · Score: 1

    the main thing the USAF do, is dial in the time corrections to stop the satelites time drifting out of sync with our own time (this would cause them to be off by around 4km in a day if we didnt do the time sync) [see: BBC Horisons - Do you know what time it is], the thing is, this is done manually right now. surely there must be an algorithm that could work out what the new time code needs to be and automatically sync the satelites.

  47. I wouldn't count on that by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Galileo has been marred with politics and other failures for a long time, and thus far is still vaporware. As of yet, there still aren't any birds in the sky. So yes, it would be great to have another system, especially since the US and EU apparently hashed out their differences and the systems will be interoperable, allowing receivers to use both to get even better accuracy and reliability. However as of this point, there is still much politicing and little satellite launching going on with the Galileo project.

    So don't count on it until it happens. GPS remains important because it works right now, and almost all major transport has switched to using it as primary navigation.

  48. If they have any brains by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    They'll use something else if GPS has problems. When I was a surveyor's assistant, we never used GPS. Everything was done based on landmarks. You set a position on a known landmark, and used a digital theodolite to measure other points. This was done via a laser shooting to a reflective unit. The timing on the laser beam provided highly accurate distance data, the angles on the theodolite (and the known height of the pole the reflector was on) provided the necessary data to figure out the location of a point, relative to the known one. Gets you height too, as well as latitude and longitude.

    This generally wasn't a big deal at all as survey markets are EVERYWHERE in most cities. They were plenty easy to find and use. Worse comes to worse, there are the original mile markers (the whole US has a grid of these) and you can start from there and triangulate to a new intermediate point.

    Worked well for us.

    1. Re:If they have any brains by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Where can I learn more about this grid of markers? :-)

    2. Re:If they have any brains by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Well a good place to start could be the National Geodetic Survey http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/. They are the people responsible for them. They have maps and such for sale. On a map, you'll find that it isn't a neat clean grid, but that it is amazingly close given that most of these were done in like the 1800s using rather simple equipment. There are then of course all sorts of smaller markers placed by all different groups, including private surveyors. However they are all based on the NGS markers. Those are the fundamental references for doing triangulation for surveying.

      If you know what to start looking for, you'll find all sorts of lesser benchmarks scattered around in your city. The actual NGS ones are fairly sparse (as I said, the rough goal is the corners of square miles) but lesser ones are all over the place. That's what we'd normally look for. So long as we found two that were in the computer's database and had line of sight to each other, we were in business. Line up a shot form one to the other, and it could then infer where it was and with a great deal of accuracy where any other point from it was.

      How you used it then depended on what you wanted to do. There were three tasks that we normally did:

      1) Surveying land/trees/buildings/etc. This means we had existing features we wanted to know about. In this case, the gun (digital theodolite) was put in place and the person with the rod (4 foot high rod with reflector on top) would go to the places you are interested in, set it, and you'd take a reading. The computer would then store all this for later output to a desktop computer to make a map or whatever.

      2) Laying out a building. The layout for the structure is transferred to the computer attached to the gun and you then go out and get it all set up and triangulated. It then cycles through the points (these'll be things like corners). It tells you the angle to set the gun at, you take a shot of the rod and it'll tell you how much you need to go towards or away from it. When the rod is in the right spot, you mark it with a stake.

      3) Making a new benchmark. In the event that there are no benchmarks with line of site to what you need, or if there is just something new that needs to be benchmarked, we'd triangulate a new spot, and put in a benchmark. It was generally just a nail with a little meta disc around it. That could then be used as reference for more surveys.

  49. No by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We laughed at the fact that Europe has NOT stated to launch Galileo sats. As of yet, the system is still operational and I can't find any data saying they've even launched a single sat. Last I can see they were supposed to in 2H 2008, but I can't find anything saying they did.

    The funny things about Galileo isn't that they are working on their own system. Makes good sense, especially since the US and EU apparently worked out their differences with it and the two systems will work together to give even better results. The funny thing is all the politicing and such going on that is keeping the project in vaporware status for a long time. By the original timeline, the system ought to be up now, and instead it isn't even starting.

  50. No, irony would be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ...naming a bunch of things that orbit the Earth after Ptolemy... :-D

    ...or, coming at it from a different slant (closer to yours), maybe Copernicus or Aristarchus

  51. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by digitig · · Score: 1

    Yes, I know about yaw. Which is why I said direction of travel is determined by comparing successive positions, and heading is determined by comparing positions of receivers on different parts of the vessel. I don't know of any vessels that use the latter system, but I've seen it presented at GPS conferences.

    --
    Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  52. it is entirely impossible by KingBenny · · Score: 0

    or at least very unlikely that any national institution would cry out for help like this, meanwhile disguising the fact that they just want more money ???

    --
    Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
  53. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by Confuse+Ed · · Score: 1

    using static ground stations like LORAN,

    Reminds me of something I've not yet found the answer to: Why don't we have ground-based GPS transmitters in addition to the satellites? - wouldn't this give improved reliabilty / accuracy / easier-maintenance in places where you need it (ie. near ports) with standard GPS receiver equipment (rather than needing extra equipment like for differential-GPS)

  54. Oh Noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We have a GPS Accuracy Gap, fire up the PorkMobile, Taxman!

  55. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by jrjarrett · · Score: 1

    There is. It's called WAAS

  56. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by david.given · · Score: 1

    I don't know if it's a holdover from my days as a boy scout or what, but I almost always have a backup, and a backup of the backup of anything critical to my survival. And if I ever get rich enough to own my own ocean-going vessel, *I* sure wouldn't put to sea without a sextant and the training to use it. And I'm just some not-a-professional-ship's-navigator schmuck.

    Hell yeah. You never know when you're going to drop it / run the batteries down / lose it / sail into a mountain shadow and lose signal / get too close to a nuclear explosion and get EMPd.

    Interestingly, recently sailing in my father's new yacht (a Hunter Liberty 23 twin masted ketch, lovely boat), when I wanted to know where we were in a hurry, my immediate reaction was to grab the hand-bearing compass and take a couple of bearings off nearby rocks. The whole process took about 20 seconds. I'd completely failed to notice the GPS hanging next to the compass.

    The compass, BTW, floats. The GPS doesn't.

  57. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

    Someone didn't have RAIM.

    Last I checked (about 3 years ago), SOLAS regulations had quite a bit about using GPS as a primary navigation system. At that point, I think it was still not permitted to be primary unless the system met very specific reliability and integrity monitoring requirements.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  58. Examples? by copponex · · Score: 1

    What technologies are you talking about? I don't know of anything that's been developed entirely since the beginning of the Iraq war.

  59. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by MDMurphy · · Score: 1

    No, WAAS is satellite based and only provides correction signals used to improve accuracy of GPS measurments.

  60. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by hey! · · Score: 1

    Speaking of cold war, my late father-in-law was an inertial guidance system engineer. He designed gyros. Remember the whole business about gimbel lock in Apollo 13? That was one of the gyros he worked on. One time he visited the naval air station at Alameda with a portable inertial guidance device, and discovered that the base didn't know where it was. The coordinates the base had were hundreds of meters off.

    I was in on some early uses of GPS and maps, and let me tell you that maps based on the old surveying techniques can be wrong, particularly in coastal areas, because of failure to account for local gravitational anomalies caused by the variations in the thickness of the Earth's crust.

    In any case, it sounds like positional accuracy wouldn't have been the issue. No GPS device can give you a heading. I don't know too much about LORAN but I think it works on similar principles; it doesn't tell you which way you're pointed. The GPS system doesn't give headings, but the device can interpolate a a "speed and heading made good" by looking at the trend in fixes. I believe LORAN works the same way.

    In any case, such calculations can't be relied upon in coastal areas, precisely because of currents, which change from place to place. The pilot of a vessel who runs aground because he relied on GPS is still at fault because you shouldn't rely on GPS in such places.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  61. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by CompMD · · Score: 1

    That's why there are VORs. Pilots use them all the time. They are ground based beacons for direction finding and ranging. And they're not going away.

  62. GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last I hear the Military was working on something better than GPS. The Navy in particular was looking for a system like GPS but much more accurate (so they could auto-pilot a jet landing on a aircraft carrier at night in rough seas). GPS is just not accurate enough for Military needs. Even in the last large offensive the GPS guided bomb where something like 6-9 YARDS to the target. Due to many reason the military/navy want and need something way more accurate. The GPS served the purposed but they are looking to the future and will let the current GPS system trickle into the control of the private sector.

  63. Bullshit by copponex · · Score: 1

    I haven't had time to check every point in this article, but it fits with everything I've read about the subject.

    Either way, you're either totally ignorant, or completely full of shit. According to the GAO, approximately 25% of "defense" spending is unaccounted for. This is probably by design to allow for the operational budget of the CIA, which is unconstitutionally hidden from the eyes of the public.

    Once in Iraq, there was virtually no accountability over how the money was spent. There was also considerable money "off the books," including as much as $4 billion from illegal oil exports. The CPA and the Iraqi State Oil Marketing Board, which it controlled, made a deliberate decision not to record or "meter" oil exports, an invitation to wholesale fraud and black marketeering.

    Thus the country was awash in unaccountable money. British sources report that the CPA contracts that were not handed out to cronies were sold to the highest bidder, with bribes as high as $300,000 being demanded for particularly lucrative reconstruction contracts.

    The contracts were especially attractive because no work or results were necessarily expected in return. It became popular to cancel contracts without penalty, claiming that security costs were making it too difficult to do the work. A $500 million power-plant contract was reportedly awarded to a bidder based on a proposal one page long. After a joint commission rejected the proposal, its members were replaced by the minister, and approval was duly obtained. But no plant has been built.

    Where contracts are actually performed, their nominal cost is inflated sufficiently to provide handsome bribes for everyone involved in the process. Bribes paid to government ministers reportedly exceed $10 million.

    Money also disappeared in truckloads and by helicopter. The CPA reportedly distributed funds to contractors in bags off the back of a truck. In one notorious incident in April 2004, $1.5 billion in cash that had just been delivered by three Blackhawk helicopters was handed over to a courier in Erbil, in the Kurdish region, never to be seen again. Afterwards, no one was able to recall the courier's name or provide a good description of him.

  64. I pointed this out almost two years ago... by GooberToo · · Score: 1

    ...and was shit-stormed by /. and moderated as troll. This problem is hardly new. The problem has been on-going for a long time. After all, some of these satellites have been in place for almost two decades. That's a long time for an operational satellite.

    Thankfully we now have systems like WAAS and AGPS to improve accuracy for civilian use. The problem with WAAS is its not likely your going to receive a consistent signal on ground. Its really designed for aircraft use. But given the right environment, its still possible to receive it.

    The military still has other options as long as they can use multiple receivers. Not to mention other countries are starting to provide coverage with their own systems. I fully expect the military to leverage these where applicable - at least for munitions and possibly ground forces.

    And to the ignorant mods and /. out there than wanted to make sure everyone remained as ignorant and dumb as them - F-U! Hopefully you feel like a first class jackass now. Maybe next time you'll not moderate things which are obviously well outside of your body of knowledge. Doing so only makes everyone as ignorant as you.

  65. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LORAN and GPS provide the same information. The best I can guess here is the LORAN receiver provided more information than the GPS receiver. For example the LORAN displayed the intended course and the GPS didn't. This isn't a GPS problem. It's a user problem.

  66. Some inaccuracies here by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    Disclaimer: I'm a defense contractor. Some points in response:

    Either way, you're either totally ignorant, or completely full of shit. According to the GAO, approximately 25% of "defense" spending is unaccounted for. This is probably by design to allow for the operational budget of the CIA, which is unconstitutionally hidden from the eyes of the public.

    First of all, I'm not sure how you're defining "defense" spending, but it's worth noting that the CIA is not part of the DOD, and they have their own budget. GAO is almost certainly talking about the DOD budget here. There are obviously black programs within DOD, but they're nothing close to 25% of the budget.

    The real issue here is DFAS (the Defense Financial and Accounting Service). These are the folks who are responsible for (among other things) paying the defense department's bills. And they get graded on how fast they do it, not on how accurate they are. As a result, they frequently end up paying invoices out of the wrong accounting lines... which, in the end, means that you can't figure out where your money went.

    I see this with my (DOD) customers all the time. We do work, properly charge it against the right accounting lines, and submit our bill. Months down the line, the customer comes back and says things like: "Why didn't you expend all the funding on the XXX project?". I look over the records, and find that we've expended, billed, and been paid for XXX already. My only response is that they'll have to ask DFAS what happened, because all I know is that we got paid for it.

    The rest of your post discusses problems in Iraq. But most of this has to do with extreme, borderline criminal negligence on the part of the gov't people who should have been overseeing funds distribution there. Almost every aspect of the disaster that was the occupation of Iraq, was, well, a disaster, so it's no surprise the financial aspects of this were screwed up too.

    Yes, there are DOD contractors who are crooked. But the vast majority of problems with the inability to account for government funding is that the DOD accounting service is just not very good.

  67. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    That's right. And neither GPS nor LORAN has the capability to measure heading (only a compass can do that), so I'm calling BS on this story.

  68. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    There are more and more ships using GPS based heading sensors. They tend to be a lot larger and more expensive than your older style compasses, however.

  69. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    It's not hard to derive heading from GPS if you use two sensors in known positions of the vessel. Each one can tell where it is at on the earth, and since you know where you put them on the ship, you can derive the vessel's heading.

  70. As a tax-paying American citizen... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're Welcome.

  71. Re:That's OK. By then GLONASS will be fully operat by IggyBung · · Score: 1

    I'm really surprised that there has only been the ONE mention of GLONASS. GPS/GLONASS receivers have been available for years, but with collapse of the USSR, GLONASS almost became totally useless.

    Now however, they've been launching 6 satellites a year and have a nearly full, and quite usable constellation. The accuracy is not quite as good as GPS and it's a much harder system to work with, but, quite useful shoudl anything happen to GPS.

  72. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, I should have said velocity is determined in both systems by taking the difference in position over a known time interval. For direction of travel the time interval doesn't matter of course.

    Sorry, wrong again. For GPS, speed (not velocity) is derived, not by taking two positions and a time interval, but rather directly from Doppler shift between the receiver and the satellite.

    In the interest of complete precision, velocity DOES include direction. It's a vector and includes both magnitude (here of speed) and direction.

    That's why a point on the edge of a disc rotating at a constant speed is said to be constantly changing velocity. The speed remains steady, but the directional component is constantly changing.

  73. Re:Best not one system... LORAN, Fuller, Cold War by digitig · · Score: 1

    No, I was right -- read what I wrote. The original posting related to course ("direction of travel"), so I was concerned with velocity, not speed. And velocity is derived by comparing consecutive 4-d positions.

    --
    Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?