Slashdot Mirror
ASCAP Starts To Act Like the RIAA
Scott Lockwood writes "Below Average Dave, a Dr. Demento style parody artist, has been shut down by the ASCAP. This collective, acting as badly as the RIAA, is now attempting to ignore the 2 Live Crew Supreme Court decision that parodies are new derivative works. Just like the RIAA, ASCAP seems intent on misrepresents the law. If you know anyone who can help BA Dave in his plight, please contact him." This artist doesn't have the resources to fight the ASCAP, even though the law is pretty clearly on his side. Anyone at the EFF or the ACLU interested?
More like "ASSHAT".
If you know anyone who can help BA Dave in his plight, please contact him.
Number of certified lawyers that read Slashdot: 5.
Number who actually give a shit: 1.
Paging Ray Beckerman alias NewYorkCountryLawyer.
My work here is dung.
Below average Dave is just kind of below average.
BMI and ASCAP have been thugs for a long time, threatening bar and club owners for licensing agreements for offering live music. For this reason, AS220 in Providence no longer allows musicians to perform any cover songs!
-mkb
"Yo you guys be trippin'. Motherfucking motion denied!"
Or am I misunderstanding the strangled grammar?
Once the animal rights people get involved, it's game over.
ASCAP has been in this much much longer than RIAA.
I think there's only one more box left for dealing with *IAA types that are abusing the law for racketeering.
Would it really be so bad if someone started using mafia tactics on them since they're so fond of them? I think that wiring bombs to *IAA executives' cars and those of their slimy attorneys would be a good start. It's pretty clear that going through legal channels isn't working.
If you are right by the law, what can they really do besides putting fear in you?
-- if you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine
Will the ASCAP be targeting Weird Al now?
I can't say I'm surprised, from the limited knowledge I have on the subject, these guys along with BMI have been on the bullies for years. For a good example from a couple years ago, check out The Richard Phillips vs BMI Story in which an independent artist, who only performed his own music (no covers, etc.), which he owned the copyright to, was pushed out of a job.
Sadly, PS/2 was yet another victim of USB, which doesn't care what you plug into it, the electrical slut.
ASCAP charges both for lyrics and melodies. If you make an instrumental version of a song, you have to pay, and if you create alternative lyrics over that instrumental, I don't think it changes anything. I suspect Dave isn't going to avoid the bill.
The guy needs to contact the EFF himself. They don't often just pick up cases because they get reported on Slashdot. They might take a look if he contacts them though. It doesn't take much effort to do so: http://www.eff.org/about/contact
Incidentally, the ASCAP has a long history of doing dumb stuff. Back in the mid 1990s they got a lot of public flack for trying to sue the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/communications/ASCAP.html
I'm never one to stand in the way of a murderous rampage (in fact I stand as far away as possible) but I think perhaps you're overreacting just a bit. Why not just boycott them? No one is forcing you to use them or any of their "properties". Just leave them to drown in their own cultural dregs.
Why is it that the music industry seems to be so corrupt? I mean, I'm sure crap goes on in all industries, but the music industry in particular is just blatantly messed up. You've got groups like the RIAA suing their customers, all major venues are pretty much owned by Ticketmaster who add ridiculous fees to shows, while ClearChannel controls the airwaves, and then you have groups like ASCAP/BMI who push licenses on small business owners because the alternative are law suits where the minimal fine (or just lawyers fees alone) would drive them out of business. To make matters worst, the artists who are the base of the industry are frequently getting short end of the stick despite in many cases providing the largest contribution which makes the whole industry possible.
Sadly, PS/2 was yet another victim of USB, which doesn't care what you plug into it, the electrical slut.
If you're going to go up against the big bad guys, make sure you have at least one of the following:
1) Money
2) Huge popular support.
2LC had both. This guy seems to have neither. I know, I know, first they came for the lame DJ I didn't care about and I said nothing, then they came for all the DJs, then they called me a DJ. Call me a procrastinator, but I'll wait for stage 3.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
These cunts sue people and extort fees out of businesses for singing Happy Birthday. They're racketeers of the worst kind and they've paid off the lawmakers and judges. The only possible solution to this problem is by killing them and everyone that works with them. There is no other way out.
What the Supreme Court said was that if a parody was sufficiently transformative, this would operate in its favour when weighing up the fair use factors. BA Dave is taking the position that because he created a parody, fair use applies, but the Supreme Court stamped on that theory pretty sharply:
"Like a book review quoting the copyrighted material criticized, parody may or may not be fair use, and petitioner's suggestion that any parodic use is presumptively fair has no more justification in law or fact than the equally hopeful claim that any use for news reporting should be presumed fair."
Now I've no idea how transformative BA Dave's parodies are, but this quote should at least show him that he needs to do a little more than cry "parody" if he's going to convince them to back off. Let's hope he can. And let's be grateful he is in the US where parody is given some recognition as a fair use. In the UK, for instance, it's viewed as being no more legitimate than any other form of copying.
What a totally unbiased article summary. It doesn't automatically take a position or make assumptions about anything. I expect a fully qualified, objective discussion to follow presenting both sides in a fair and factually-based light.
If someone takes you to court and YOU win, it means they had no reason to sue you in the first place.
They should pay not only for YOUR lawyers (no trouble finding lawyers if you got a winning cause), but also for the time and stress of being wrongly sued.
That would stop a LOT of "I'll sue your ass" bullshit currently happening in the USA.
There is no other way out.
I don't know, suicide worked pretty well for me - you should try it!
which is totally what she said
It's easy.
STOP consuming their products. All of them.
Don't pirate (ANY support that keeps their products available is market chumming), don't buy, don't bother.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
I don't see how that will make them stop using the government to further a racketeering scheme.
you are
Hey ASCAP, go ahead and target Weird Al. You think hacking the Atlantic Records wiki entry was bad? Just you wait...
Is there anywhere a list of which artists or labels or watever "belong" to them?
For example, if I go out and look at a music cd, how do I know *IIA/ASCAP, whomever is involved?
Why oh why is all the bad stuff (corporate related) happening in the USA first?
Who couldhave imagined that an organization with a name like ASCAP could be acting like an an ASS HAT.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
One distinction I would like to point out is that ASCAP is *not* like the RIAA -- ASCAP actually pays the artists they represent when they force someone to pay up for licensing purposes.
I don't agree with their stance on this particular issue, or their attempts to charge people who are playing radio (stations that have already paid the ASCAP fees).
But it's an important distinction that they are actually defending the rights of artists, even if those rights are overblown. It's a far cry from the RIAA who will never be handing down a penny of the handful of successful lawsuits they've filed.
The reality of the situation is that there is basically no such thing as a Composers' Union in the US, so ASCAP/BMI association is the only way a composer or songwriter can get reimbursed for the use of their works on an international level.
have you been seen on slash?
I've been referring to ASCAP in the same breath as the RIAA, MPAA, and IFPI for some time now. I hadn't actually heard of any specific misbehavior on its part, but it was inevitable that it would emulate its siblings and try to expand the reach of its extortion. Now I have a specific instance I can quote finally.
It won't, but it is definitely a way out.
which is totally what she said
Why boycott when I can "deprive" them of money through pirating?!
But then they sue over that too. Loose Loose. I give up. They can have my money. I'm sad now.
Skiffy is Spiffy, but Ort is tort.
Research the artist. Research the label. If it really means that much to you, take the time to learn who, by your definition, is a tool and who isn't*. Even a simple Wikipedia search might net you some information.
*: Note that this does not mean you have to learn who Tool, the band, is if you don't want to.
Demanding constant attention will only lead to attention.
CDs usually have the logo of their music company. If its one you've heard of or heard of its parent company, you probably shouldn't buy it.
Skiffy is Spiffy, but Ort is tort.
Or you could just use this.
http://www.riaaradar.com/
There is a war going on for your mind.
Then, what should I do if I'm an aspiring musician, and I'd like to draw on some of my cultural heritage -- and yes, copyright lasts so insanely long that we are talking about cultural heritage here -- and these thugs come and sue me?
In other words: What do we do about The Grey Album?
For that matter, as part of my "boycott", should I stop singing Happy Birthday?
Fuck no. I will not spend my life avoiding our culture because it happens to be owned by a few corporations. I will continue to assert that this is our culture, not theirs.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Try www.ascap.com for starters.
See also www.riaaradar.com for a search engine of records that are on RIAA labels.
Isn't there some sort of penalty for abusing the legal process?
Even if the bar's set stupidly high (like for perjury) surely some of the SLAPPs should qualify for some pretty extreme penalties.
Actually parody only covers the words that you change. If you use the original music you must pay for that privilege. Weird Al has gotten permission from the artists to use their music and when he didn't he ceased and desisted from performing that song. This is a considerably more dicey challenge than simple pirating.
Why bother
any sufficiently advanced extortion racket is indinguisable from a government
Like make his songs funny? No I can't do that. Help him, like with a lawyer? No, I won't do that.
6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
Haha, good ol' pine box.
Oh, golly. That would be so inconvenient. I'm willing to whine and watch high-profile court cases about this stuff, but you actually want me to act like I believe what I'm saying? You're not one of those anachronistic weirdos that think that principles are worth sacrificing for, are you?
Virtue finds and chooses the mean.
Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea
In a case of this nature, the guy's best bet is, in my opinion, Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts or EFF.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
If the law is so clearly on his side, why doesn't he hire a "no win, no fee" lawyer? Then when he wins the case, ASCAP will have to pay his legal costs anyway.
Actually, anyone is allowed to cover or parody any published song without any permission needed so long as they pay the songwritering royalties. In the case of a parody, those royalties are usually split between the original writer and the writer of the parody, in other words Weird Al himself gets a check from ASCAP or BMI (I'm not sure who he is registered with) for performance. As for his CD's those are covered by the mechanical royalty, which is also split in a very similar way by and handled by the Harry Fox Agency.
Knee-jerk reactions aside, the guy still has to pay the songwriter. ASCAP is not claiming that his parodies aren't legal, only that since he's using someone else's music, he has to pay for it. That's the way it works.
Weird Al pays the songwriter for the music in all of his parodies. And yes, he does have to pay. Provided he records a real parody ("Smells Like Nirvana" almost certainly is, "Like A Surgeon" not so much), fair use should protect him if he doesn't get permission to record it, but getting permission ahead of time avoids lawsuits, and that's a good thing. Either way, the songwriter is credited and gets paid.
Many posts here are confusing the issue of "parody is not a copyright violation" with the issue of "if you use someone else's music, you have to pay for it." You'll note that ASCAP never mentions copyright violation in its letters, and never asks that the songs be removed, only that the songwriters whose music is being used get paid.
If I were a lawyer, I would not take this case. He will almost certainly lose.
Sadly those with both the intelligence and the self discipline to do that are a small minority of consumers. Let's be generous and say it's 5%. That's just a speed bump for them. They'll barely even notice.
You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
Yes. That's what I do. Not because of any boycott, but because it's a shitty, stupid song.
Circumcision is child abuse.
Beatbox?
What, am I supposed to join them???
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=978257&cid=25177277
See also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
ASCAP is a society for composers, authors, and publishers. It has nothing to do with audio recordins and everything to do with the underlying musical composition.
For example, say I write a song for Coldplay and they record it. ASCAP represents me, not Coldplay.
As a general matter, every (professional) songwriter in the US is covered by ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC. These societies basically exist only to collect copyright royalties as statutorily created and defined by US copyright law. These are known as "performing rights societies." See 17 USC 101.
To point out why this is so confusing for people:
When you play a song off a CD, you are implicating two sets of rights: those of the sound recording and those of the underlying musical composition.
If you were to play a sound effect off a CD, you would only be doing something related to sound recordings and nothing to do with any musical composition.
In the first instance, you'd be doing things related to both (1) artists and (2) composers. In the second instance, you'd be doing things related to only (1) artists.
Case 1 implicates ASCAP. Case 2 does not.
Until very recently, there was no public performance right in audio recordings, and so making your own version of the audio recording would only implicate rights of the underlying musical composition. Thus, if I covered some Coldplay song, Coldplay would have no standing to sue unless they also were the composer of the underlying musical work.
However, within the past decade or so, a new law came into force that creates an exclusive public performance right for sound recordings. However, this only applies when dealing with digital audio transmissions, not with analog/playing-over-your-boombox-speakers performances.
Now that I've written this, I'm not sure where I was going with it. I'll just post it for those interested in the history and development of copyright law.
Of course by "artist," I don't mean to imply that composers are not artists. I've just chosen "artist" as a shorthand for "performing artist."
--New members were only admitted with sponsorship of existing members.--
This sounds like how a gang operates not an organization. Looks like the dude could just pay membership dues or something. He ain't paying so they are going to mess him up.
Someone needs to bust a CAP in their AS...
Send the court a 1 page pro se response:
... and ...
The Defendant's actions are protected forms of expression under Supreme Court decisions
Defendant therefore requests immediate dismissal of this case With Prejudice and forty-four cents recompense for his postage.
And if this case is taking place in California, or any other state with SLAAP laws, file a SLAPP counterclaim.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
There is no other way out.
I don't know, suicide worked pretty well for me - you should try it!
so you're telling me you created a highly advanced artificial intelligence to respond to /. articles before you killed yourself? and all that from your basement?
and you did not make the code open source? shame!
Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
As a professional musician and a member of ASCAP, I can tell you that ASCAP is not out to screw people and get greedy like the RIAA. ASCAP is just trying to collect money that we musicians deserve. If I write a song and someone else uses it in some form at a club, *yes* I am owed some money from that venue. Why shouldn't they pay me, they're publicly performing something based off my works.
Of course since most people posting here *aren't* professional musicians, I can see why there are so many kneejerk reactions against ASCAP. But trust me, ASCAP is not the bad guy, they're going to bat for us musicians to try get us money where we deserve it. If anyone is a "thug," it's BMI because they are biased *towards* venues and broadcasting companies, and do not work as hard as ASCAP when it comes to going out and getting money for their musicians.
(1) Take down the website. This stops their claim of damages. They probably have no damages anyway.
(2) Study the law of copyright and federal civil procedure. This could take awhile. Find a lawyer to help explain the rough spots to you. Study up very carefully about Rule 11 sanctions, because the SOBs are going to accuse you of Rule 11 violations if they decide to fight you. You may also be able to claim some damages from them for abuse of copyright--research that too.
(3) File a declaratory judgment action in federal court asking that your rights be determined to be fair use, and seek any damages you are entitled to.
(4) The industry must then respond to your lawsuit. This is VERY expensive to them in relationship to the damages that they can recover (probably zero). It is a bad business decision for them to hunt you down. In THEIR best scenario, they'll have to pay at least a few thousand dollars to kick your ass in a situation where they can't get any money out of you. (If you're a mean, vindictive, son of a bitch, you can get your musician-friends to file their own declaratory judgments actions after your case is over).
(5) If they fight you, do your best. If you win, you're a demigod and you get a federal judge ruling that your use is a fair use. If you lose, what the hell--you fought and you made the corporation pay. If they don't fight you, you get your order saying that your use is a fair use. After you file your lawsuit, they may very well be willing to negotiate (a copyright lawyer is very useful here).
(6) You can keep your costs way down if you represent yourself. They have to pay a lawyer a few hundred dollars an hour. That's your edge.
You can torture those sons of bitches if you know the law and if you're in the right. They know that. They'll sing a different tune when faced with litigation costs.
Did anyone else read it as asPCa and wonder if the USPTO had, true to form, approved a patent involving blackcats, cats (the living kind), and string?
You probably have 3 or 4 ASCAP or BMI members living on your street. Anyone who's halfway serious about songwriting is going to become a member as early as possible. Boycotting them is really out of the question if you actually enjoy music.
FWIW...they're not that good to their "clients" either. Sometimes people are just born with crappy souls. And then they go to work for ASCAP. Eh. I think the real reason not to boycott is boycotting century-old industry practice is kind of silly. These things were set before you were born. Entertainment is a racket and as much as the internet has the power to change some of that, it will not change all of it.
As radical as it sounds, I'm in agreement with the grandparent poster--all other options have failed and only revolution remains untried. Everything else has not only failed miserably in bringing change, it has actively aided our enemy's cause! Boycotting, as the title of my post indicates just gets spun as piracy on paper when these *IAA types want to use the courts or the legislative to beat down and shake down money.
Screw it! Hand me a rifle and let's get to work at reaffirming the damn piece of paper actually means what it says rather than going through the motions in this pretend democracy we now live in. Otherwise we're nothing but serfs living on our Lord's land and utterly without rights and subject to their whims...
--bornagainpenguin
Have a Virgin Mobile USA smartphone? Give VMRoms.com a try!
Yes; as an alternative, may I suggest the "Birthday Dirge":
(Sung to the tune of "The Volga Boatmen")
Happy Birthday! <thud!> Happy Birthday! <thud!>
Birthdays come but once a year
Marking time as Death draws near
Happy Birthday! <thud!> Happy Birthday! <thud!>
(Alternate verses include:
It's your birthday never fear / You'll be dead this time next year
So you've aged another year / With each one your death draws near
Doom, destruction, and despair / People dying everywhere
Were I sitting in your shoes / I'd go out and sing the blues
etc. etc. etc.)
Do you like Japanese imports?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If he open-sourced it, who would maintain the codebase and update the copy running in the basement when necessary? You can't expect a suicidal coder to be patient enough to write *two* advanced AIs, and would you really trust your transcoded soul to an intelligence you didn't create yourself?
Also, if it were me, I sure wouldn't want anyone reading my soul's source code.
Additive identity, multiplicative cancellation, distributive multiplication over addition: pick any two (unless 1 = 0)
If you can read this, thank a teacher. Since it's in English, thank a US soldier.
If I'm not in the US, should I thank the British army or East India Company?
I'm sick of political astroturf, stop it. This is not a left/right issue, both "sides" are out to protect people who give them money to be in power. The right has NEVER been known to be unfriendly to corporate interests. The left is always slandered as being a bunch of anti-freemarket-communists, but now you state that their acting against the people in interest of companies. Newthink much?
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
Or that all performers are artists, I hope ;-)
Additive identity, multiplicative cancellation, distributive multiplication over addition: pick any two (unless 1 = 0)
to be so rude
The laws regarding music is very different than those for written or visual art. For the most part music has statutory royalties which means that as long as the proper royalty is paid to the proper agency, the song can be played. This covers most everything except the use in movies, video ads (radio ads are covered by ASCAP/BMI), and television. So in the case of Weird Al, for his disc sales he must pay at most $0.09/song (Mechanical Royalty) sold but most likely negotiates a deal whereas he splits the Mechanical with the original writers, because he gets some of the mechanical for his original lyrics. Live performance is even easier, as those are simply covered by the BMI/ASCAP fee paid by the venue.
If he paid up to ASCAP, every fly by night 'licensing' operation would be running each other over in order to extort money out of him.
It's a no-win situation.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
When you get a court summons, THEN ask the court for the complete complaint and all the information for the prosecution so that you can prepare a defense.
If none are forthcoming, mail the COURT that there is no case to answer.
If they turn up, in this case, there will be no legal case to answer. Post on slashdot with the complaints and there will be 100's of posts on why the case has no merit.
Mail the COURT that.
If they still go ahead, then you may want to get a lawyer, but counter claim through the small claims court BEFORE for harassment, using the information you now have to show there is no case.
I am a Professor at Brooklyn Law School, and I have an army of law students in the Brooklyn Law Incubator & Policy Clinic who love to help these sorts of clients for free. Below Average Dave is welcom to contact me at jonathan.askin@brooklaw.edu.
I'm the conductor of three different orchestras. Ever wonder why we play so much Beethoven, and so little Philip Glass? It's not because we hate new music. Rather, it's because the attendant fees are so high.
For example. I recently had to reprogram a concert featuring orchestral jazz music. I had a 20 minute spot to fill, so I contacted a rather famous living composer I know and asked if he had a piece he'd like for us to play. Well, it turned out that he doesn't even have copies of the parts for his own music. We had to pay $400 to rent the parts from his publisher. We also had to pay an additional $300 to BMI (ASCAP's little brother) for the performance rights. That's all on top of the $800 we paid this year in user fees just to have the right to pay the additional $300 for performance rights to one piece. So the total cost for this one piece: $1500. Total cost to play Beethoven instead, $150.
And on top of all that -- BMI has been stalking one of our orchestras, demanding they pay their membership fees in advance for next season, even though those fees are in "negotiation." BMI "promises" they'll refund the difference if the nationally negotiated fees are reduced. (Fat Chance.)
BMI and ASCAP are both starting to resort to extortionist tactics.