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Sun To Build World's Biggest App Store Around Java
CWmike writes "Sun Micro plans to launch an App Store that could make Apple's look smaller than a 7-Eleven by comparison, CEO Jonathan Schwartz wrote on his blog this week. Schwartz indicated the Java App Store, code-named Project Vector, will focus on PC users and estimated the size of the community at 1 billion. Sun plans to allow Java application developers to submit programs to a simple Web site so the company can evaluate them for safety and content before presenting them to the Java audience. Sun will charge for distribution. The company will reveal more details at its JavaOne conference, which opens June 2 in San Francisco, Schwartz said."
I was going to write a first post, but I got bought-out by Oracle before I could finish it.
Would you like an Oracle database with that?
...so I could suffer the meta-frustration of waiting for a Java applet to load so I could then buy some Java applets and wait for them to load.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
This could be a software repository for all PC's.
The problem with this idea, is that PC users already have an App Store... It's called the Internet. Or Walmart.
Seriously, there's no incentive to use their Java App Store on an open system (home computer) which is very much unlike with the iPhone, where you have to use it in order to get apps.
It'll crash every other browser at random times with strange exception errors, will take 10 minutes to load a page, I'm just so for it..
-=[ place
I'm taking bets... what's going to be slower, Sun's Java App Store or Adobe's Marketplace?
The only upside is I'll go outside and get a life while waiting for a craptastic widget to download.
It seems NetBeans authors are "stupid and don't know how to code" sadly. Because it eats about 400 MB of RAM while opening 4 KB Javascript file.
Quick way to get 30% Funny 70% Troll: defend Opera browser on
I think this is a great idea, but it raises a lot of questions. Like... if it takes Apple a week to make sure a calculator app is safe enough for the iPhone, how is Sun going to review desktop-size apps in any reasonable amount of time?
One thing about the iphone, love it or hate it, is that the apps on it all use the same constrained user interface, and thus many of the same ui widgets and conventions.
This, for users, makes Apple app store apps EASY TO USE.
Also, each one is resource constrained, and ui constrained, so it is SINGLE PURPOSE, making it trivial to explain and no fuss to use.
People can get started using their app easily and are seldom disappointed, and NEVER confused in their attempt to use the app. It just works.
And it costs from 0 to $5 bucks (vast majority).
The above are REQUIREMENTS for a mass consumer software distribution infrastructure.
I hope sun doesn't screw up by allowing freedom to put whatever the heck program you want on there, following whatever ui conventions you want, and with 100 buttons each.
EPIC FAIL if so.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
1. Probably the largest developer base short of Javascript.
2. Unemployment is through the roof.
3. Corporations looking for ways to cut costs.
4. Open Source hackers continue their enjoyment of food and shelter.
5. Oracle got Sun for pennies.
If this was your idea, Mr. Ellison, take another sailboat out of petty cash. You've earned it.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Still-born hype for JavaFX, Sun's shiny new device agnostic platform.
As we've seen with the recent article about JRE security on OS X, users are generally reluctant to run client-side Java. Swing hasn't managed much traction, with desktop consumers overwhelmingly preferring native apps. Somehow a new JavaFX facade over JNLP/Applets and an App Store will change this?
Phones may be a different story but I suspect any JavaFX adoption would be significantly trail iPhone and Android in terms of relevance. Perhaps 3 years too late.
What would Larry do if he were running Sun? :-)
Why do they need to review it? Can't they enforce a safe subset and give the user graded security options.. I kinda remember that being the point of the Java sandbox.
Apps that are only allowed to read/write to restricted local storage and can only access files that the user specifically selected with an Open/Save File Dialog sounds plenty secure to me. Some similar restrictions for socket access.
How we know is more important than what we know.
No, seriously, who cares?
Sun plans to allow Java application developers to submit programs to a simple Web site so the company can evaluate them for safety and content before presenting them to the Java audience. Sun will charge for distribution.
This model is meaningful for Joe Sixpack audience, which does need that click-click-click-bought, installed & running approach. But how many Java apps for that market you know? It's all desktop ones, remember, and Swing still looks and feels horrible on any desktop, from Windows to X to Mac. We're in double digits for the total usable app count, at best...
Server apps and development utilities/libraries? Java ecosystem there is OSS-centric a long time ago, and you aren't going to scare a Java developer with .tar.gz files, regardless of the platform - they have to learn to deal with that stuff for the most basic tools, starting from Ant/Maven, and for most handy frameworks, too. Then, of course, OSS guys aren't going to use a paid distribution service anyway.
In fact, Schwartz seems to recognize that no-one needs this for Java, and so:
This creates opportunity for everyone in the developer community - and specifically, for any developer (even those not using Java/JavaFX) seeking to reach beyond the browser to create a durable relationship with their customers
Oh, great. So it's another Sun product with "Java" in name which has nothing whatsoever to do with Java, except that your next Java update will run an installer with "Install Java App Store client" checkbox set by default. Sounds familiar? Don't they ever learn?
Schwartz goes on to boast Java market penetration, careful to mention " billions of ... mobile devices, and smartcards, millions of enterprise servers, set top boxes, Blu-Ray DVD players" - all of which, of course, having no relevance to the subject being discussed. But he has to, because if you look at figures for the desktop, it suddenly doesn't look so impressive. Frankly, I'd suspect that Google has a higher percentage of Toolbar & Search installs then desktop Java on Windows today. Not to mention Microsoft, if it decides to jump on the bandwagon... imagine an application store with Windows Update integration for purchased applications.
You realise Pidgin is written in C, right?
Sam ty sig.
I take everything Sun says these days with 10 grains of salt. They still have some great products but they are not without their problems. They talk everything up big and have grandiose plans that have sometimes proven to be vaporware.
I was at a Sun Developer Day earlier this week. In a room full of 600+ people they took a show of hands about who was using JavaFX (almost no one) and MySQL (10%). They then proceeded to do 1.5 hour long in depth sessions on each. Then look at VirtualBox. Awesome software, and improving more quickly than VMWare - lighter weight too. Yet they insist that no one wants Parallel port virtual devices even though people are clamouring for it.
Oh well, Sun will fade into Oracle in the near future...
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
One thing about the iphone, love it or hate it, is that the apps on it all use the same constrained user interface, and thus many of the same ui widgets and conventions.
Have you SEEN a good sampling of iPhone apps?
While there are some conventions around things like pinching, the UI is anything but constrained and app UI's are all over the map, very few apps use the standard widgets for example without at least some tweaking or changes. I mean this in a good way, because the wide variety of ways to input or manipulate leads to some great finds.
The only constants in the app store are the inputs for an app, not how an app might use them... people crave variety, and on that front a store that can succeed really engages people to discover different things.
Now the ironic thing is your summary was right on target - less is more. The most successful apps have focused very narrowly and done a great job in refining the UI for that task. To the degree that is possible in Java (and it very much is) the store could succeed.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Schwartz kept mentioning JavaFX, so this in theory does mean phones too.
While Swing is a desktop platform requiring a full Java SE, JavaFX is supposed to target different devices. Now it so happens that the desktop implementation of JavaFX runs as an abstraction over Java2D and the AWT but this needn't be the case. Today's OMAP3 smart phone is plenty powerful enough for many small screen desktop Java SE apps, RAM excepted. (you wouldn't run eclipse on it!)
So while Swing and SWT may have too much 'bloat', the idea is to create a movement around JavaFX that has a smaller footprint so that they'll try to sell JavaFX applications that run identically on a desktop and a phone.
2004 called; they want their Java 'ecosystem' back.
Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
Really? Why's it use so much CPU and memory? :o
(sorry! Had to!)
I like Java. I do a lot of work in Java. I even ship an application written in Java that is installed on thousands of desktops worldwide. So, you can probably count me as a Java fan boi but I gotta ask:
Why the hell is it that after 14 years of Java we still can't get a Java app that looks and feels like a native app on Windows or Linux or even Solaris for god's sake. Why does anyone trying to ship a Java app either have to make the user jump through hoops installing JRE's and JDK's and other nonsense or has to code up special installers and .exe's to launch the JVM?
I ship an app on the Mac written in Java. Despite Apple's current pull back on their Java support, at least a Java app gets packaged up the same way as a native app and the Java runtime is installed as part of the OS.
Now, I understand that Sun has no control over Windows, but could we at least define a standard location for the JRE? Could we have a standard Java launcher that doesn't involve command line goo?
And as for Solaris - you still have to launch Java apps by running "java" from the shell or inside a script. Bourne shell scripts have been executables for 30 years, why the hell can't Java apps be executables as well? Solaris is Sun's OS. Java should shine and be the recommended language for everything.
And don't even get me started on "Java Web Start". Half the browsers leave little .jnlp turds all over your download folder or desktop.
Sun has simply fallen down with Java as a desktop platform. It's hard to deliver apps written in Java to customers, period. Swing is *still* ugly - and that's comparing it up against Windows UI's.
And there's still not a decent GUI builder for Swing. The NeXTStep GUI builder in 1997 worked better than Netbeans does today. Every time I add a component things it's a 50-50 chance that my whole layout will be destroyed as Netbeans moves things around randomly.
Sun, you have just failed so badly at making Java a viable desktop language. Maybe Oracle can clean up your mess but I doubt it.
...Microsoft announces an app store built on .Net applications and plan on making it as Mono friendly as possible. (pretend they didn't already announce this for windows mobile)
One year from now...
- Sun announces closure of app store. Notable achievement: 6 popular apps
- Microsoft announces wildfire success.
Note: They also announce the rollout of their 3rd DRM scheme in hopes of ending the massive piracy rates on apps coming from the store.
- Nobody would know what RTFA meant if it didn't need to be said all the time
ED is the standard text editor.
Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
No, seriously, who cares?
Independent application writers. They perk up a great deal any time a means of widespread distribution arises that can make what they do easier.
That includes all the G1 developers who have a new and deeper understanding of Java and might be looking for a wider market to apply it to... the GUI frameworks are not the same but lots of people stop at the language barriers.
This model is meaningful for Joe Sixpack audience, which does need that click-click-click-bought, installed & running approach. But how many Java apps for that market you know?
Probably no more than a few billion different apps. Of course, I'm probably underestimating. Look at the size of the iPhone app store. Not there but growing towards it.
It's all desktop ones, remember, and Swing still looks and feels horrible on any desktop, from Windows to X to Mac.
Thus, JavaFX. Or you can probably use Swing if you like, with some care it works fine. Look at the hideous VBA stuff people have bought in the past for lots of money when it met a need.
We're in double digits for the total usable app count, at best...
Prediction for "shutdown" locked in at "a few dozen". That's going to be amusing in a year.
Oh, great. So it's another Sun product with "Java" in name which has nothing whatsoever to do with Java, except that your next Java update will run an installer with "Install Java App Store client" checkbox set by default. Sounds familiar?
Why Yes. Yes it does.
billions of ... mobile devices, and smartcards, millions of enterprise servers, set top boxes, Blu-Ray DVD players" - all of which, of course, having no relevance to the subject being discussed.
Please tell me you are joking and not truly that dense. Every blu-ray player for example has a perfectly fine Java engine that could connect to and run items from this store...
Not to mention Microsoft, if it decides to jump on the bandwagon...
But since they are far from platform neutral in anything they do, what could they do? Steam is beating the pants off them, if they can't fight of Steam, well then.
The day to do anything but laugh loudly when the thought of Microsoft competing against a well thought out plan are long since gone. Microsoft is simply too monolithic to react in timely ways despite however many smart people they set to working at cross purposes. I suppose they might corner the online app store market for Surface, how big is THAT?
The reason it can work is the reason the App Store worked, lots of small specialized potentially well written apps that can gain enough of a hold that people come there for more apps. Who would go to a physical store for software if they could buy something more specialized for less that did what they wanted? And app writers get the boon of not caring if people are switching to the Mac or not.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
>Not to mention that we already tried that "write once run anywhere" approach about a decade ago...
>And we all know how "that" turned out.
Really, really well? Better than any other portability endeavor in computing history?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
As we've seen with the recent article about JRE security on OS X, users are generally reluctant to run client-side Java.
Eclipse alone shows just how wrong you are - if there were not also apps like Limewire as an example.
Normal users don't even know what the hell the JRE is, nor do they care how secure it is at any moment. Give them an installer and care not at all what the app they are about to use is written in.
Swing hasn't managed much traction, with desktop consumers overwhelmingly preferring native apps.
Incorrect. DEVELOPERS have preferred writing native apps. But what if suddenly a lot of useful small utilities appear here, and more and more people start using the app store - people didn't get in on the iPhone app store at first either but when enough people get involved the network effect becomes a powerful force indeed.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I reckon the thing I miss the most when looking for good applications on Windows (and to some extent OSX) is package management. This method of distribution including central update management and the use of key signing to ensure software hasn't been tampered with is priceless.
The advantage I can see in this java distribution is the ability to search one location for software, just like you do with a package manager like apt (on Debian, Ubuntu etc.). Another is that it is cross platform! Maybe this will lead people to pay just a little for OOo and to realise that it is fine for most peoples' needs.
I say good on them. Especially if it is cross platform. But I also reckon that if it is possible, there should be an open source model created too. This way I could install apt-osx or apt-win and have a nice gui to acquire all the latest and greatest open source software from one source.
I am totally sick of port on the mac and hunting for shitty shareware on win*.
like phosphorescent desert buttons singing one familiar song
Even now with the G1 on the rise, people still think of Java in terms that were more valid in 1999 than today.
As you say a cross platform app store that makes it easy for indy developers to sell games and small utilities - that could do pretty well. Especially for casual games.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If having an open system was suffucient, then yum, apt, portage, and similar tools for *nix would be non-starters. I would argue that there doesn't exist a more 'open' environment than the free UNIX movement. Yet nobody wants to go back to the old ways of downloading tarballs and hunting deps.
People want to get to their apps easily, they want to have confidence that the apps won't hork their systems, etc. I avoid packages that aren't in one of a few repos just because of the hassle of updates, etc.
This isn't just a good idea, it's one that Sun shoulda done years ago and if they do it right, we'll all be talking about how Larry pulled the rug out from under MS in a few years. Seriously, I'd consider switching my company's flagship product to Java just so I could sell it on this app store if they make it actually work, and don't kill the brilliance of this idea with lameness!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
HHISSSSSSSSssssSSSsSssSsssSS!
Hsssshssssssssthhhhhh!!
(This message written and authorized by the Annoying Python Evangelists' Club).
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
So, Sun will finally go live with their pet store.
Go elegant.
I realise that java code looks elegant. That things are also easy to program. But have you ever examined the callstack? Do yourself a favour sometime and see why Java is slow as dogs balls, memory hungry and anything but elegant.
Part of what I do is manage the applications running on a couple of HPC machines and when things are really busy, guess which jobs get pushed aside for resource hogging?
.
2004 called; they want their Java 'ecosystem' back.
I can't help but find it incredibly odd that someone would point at Eclipse as a "failed" Java ecosystem!
That's the very example of why one would think a Java app store might be able to work.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yet people use apt-get instead of just downloading the tgz's directly on Linux, why is that?
Because if you do have a centralised app repository that is extremely easy to use and which contains quality, tested applications it's much easier to use than searching the internet for something that may or may not do what you want and may or may not be trojan infested.
Sun may have overlooked one thing: Apple don't actually make much money from the app store, at least according to this article.
Presumably, it makes business sense for Apple as the app store contributes to the appeal of the iPhone. Sun won't be selling the PCs that are running these apps, and as others have pointed out the expense of reviewing full applications rather than small iPhone apps will be much greater.
Perhaps there are other benefits for Sun, but from a short-term profit-making perspective it won't work.
Having said that, a package-manager-esque software distribution method for Windows is a no-brainer. Microsoft are probably the best company to implement that, though.
RS
Those who dismiss usability and design (and the network effect!!) under the gauzy umbrella of "marketing"
You're so right; he should have pointed out that App Store succeeded despite its numerous usability problems.
I thought it was about java being slower than C.
Really? You can't be bothered to type the rest of the phrase, but your filler text is longer?
Slashdot, home of the unintentionally ironic meta-joke. I think I'll go shoot myself now, m'kay?
On sourceforge no one ever donated a single penny to me. SourceForge only works if you want to give your software away for $0,00.
I have a JavaME sortware for sale [1]. Currently I upload only demo version and source code to sourceforge but I sell on handango, mobile2day or smartsam.
So I welcome the Java shop - it might give me the opportunity to sell the MacOS/Windows/Linux version as well.
Martin
PS: before you wonder: JavaME is a pain to set-up so compiling yourself is not worth the effort compared to the few $ the application actually cost.
[1] http://fx-602p.krischik.com/
World peace? All PC's coming together, macs, windows and linux alike, and download from the same store and run that same software?
yeah, if you're stupid and don't know how to code.
Isn't that why you would be coding in Java in the first place?
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
I'm glad this got modded Redundant. Someone here knows something about Java!
The Debian Project has announced the creation of an Apt Store. This exciting repository will allow users to get whatever packages they need without even touching their mice.
Are you referring to the date when you click on it, or when it opens?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Sun has such a good record of making money with Java! I'm sure this initiative will be a stunning success!
so.... take sourceforge, subtract anything that isn't java-based, add barriers to entry (must pass some arbitrary tests for "safety and content"), add charging to distribute, and what do you get?
You must wait a little bit before using this resource; please try again later.
It is a known fact that several JVMs out there do leak just by running. Even if you try, Java, with its language constructs, makes it difficult to control memory management and fine tuning.
In other words, you don't know what you are talking about, college fan boy. Remember that before you assume memory hungriness is the result of stupidity.
That is not to say that there are not shitty, idiotic Java programmers out there.
"slow as dogs balls"
... These SI units get more eccentric every year.
I wasn't aware dogs balls were a standard unit of speed?
There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
That's how you become a real man, son. Not a quiche eating pansy boy.
Interesting. That hasn't been my experience at all. I work at a major investement bank and the majority of the middle tier of our trading systems are now written in Java. Have been for years. I'm not talking web based apps either. These days the back ends of a lot of the trading systems are a collection of Java apps running on Linux servers (usuall Red Hat) using using pub/sub messaging for communication and jdbc to connect to Oracle, Sybase or DB2.
I've been doing this for a while (10+ years) and went through the progression of doing everything in C, then C++, then Java. When told to start using Java to say I was skeptical would be an understatement. But over the years Java has become great for this purpose. We experience no random memory growth (leaked memory) from our processes. We leave them up for weeks on end processing large volumes of trades with no issues. Since we run our programs for long periods of time startup time isn't an issue and really doesn't take that long anymore anyway. The time saved coding in Java instead of C++ is also beneficial. No more having to learn every vendor's version of their C++ threading library and trying to stitch it all together in one app. Too many times would I have to write an app using serveral vedor libs that I would need to modify and they all implemented threading, logging, etc. their own way. So as you jump from one file to another there is no consistency on how things are being done. Maintenance nightmare and the learning curve is huge for new members of the team.
Plus, as a manager trying to hire competent C++ programmers out of college is almost impossible. Seems like many schools just don't teach it anymore. So if HR only gives you a junior programmer budget and you need a C++ programmer you end up getting the guy nobody else would hire.
Disclaimer: Above experience anecdotal. I'm sure there are people out there who have had really bad experiences.
Part of what I do is manage the applications running on a couple of HPC machines and when things are really busy, guess which jobs get pushed aside for resource hogging?
Part of what I do is manage java middleware that services thousands of concurrent clients while maintaining performance in the 200-300TPS range, with an SLA to the client applications of less than 100 ms - and that includes round-trip time to the data providers, some of which may be several tiers removed.
So - what's your point again?
Look, I'm not saying Java is good for everything - it's a tool and like any other tool you should use the best one for the job. But you should also base your decisions on data that is more recent than your desktop experience with Java ten years ago.