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Senator Applauds Pirate Bay Trial, Chides Canada
eldavojohn writes "Republican Senator Orrin Hatch spoke Tuesday at the World Copyright Summit in Washington DC and hailed the Pirate Bay guilty verdict as an important victory. He expressed severe disappointment in Canada for showing up on our watch list for piracy next to China and Russia. Senator Hatch also said, 'In fact, one study reports that each year, copyright piracy from motion pictures, sound recordings, business and entertainment software, and video games costs the US economy $58 billion in total output, costs American workers 373,375 jobs and $16.3 billion in earnings, and costs federal, state, and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue. During this time of economic turmoil, we must ensure that all copyrighted works, both here and abroad, are protected from online theft and traditional physical piracy. After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors.' GamePolitics notes that for his 2006 campaign, Hatch was rented for $7,000 by the RIAA and also got on his knees for $12,640 from the MPAA."
If someone download a movie, game or song doesn't mean they would have paid for it if they couldn't. So those loss calculations are wrong
I can't believe he admitted it. "After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors."
Next thing you know he'll say, "And if they won't buy our opium, we will sail our ironclads right into their harbours and open up their markets, whether they like it or not."
Lets face it,
If as a society you are pissing off a modern US Republican, you have to be doing something right.
That's an incredible saving. That money can be used to fix broken windows everywhere.
How dare you give your citizens freedom.
Where exactly did he get his numbers? I wonder?
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
"Orrin Hatch (R-UT) once again was charming,
informed, thoughtful and inspiring in his speech."
Who's a good doggy? Who's a good doggy?
You are aren't you! Have some kibble.
Yeah, i love how in business can you count "money we never got or even came close to seeing" as a "loss."
This one time, i was in a convenience store, and i saw someone else had won a million dollars in a lottery. I didn't have an extra dollar on me for a lottery ticket at the time, since the public transit token machine ate one of my dollars. Ergo, PUBLIC TRANSIT COST ME A MILLION DOLLARS!!11!1
oh wait, that 'extra' dollar would have gone to something useful with value to me... not a lottery ticket.
/facepalm
That which does not kill us makes us... st
I'm sure glad that he is a senator then. I would love to see how he would feel if he was convicted in a trial and it turned out that the Judge was a high ranking member of the puppeteers of the prosecutor. Talk about trying to stack the deck. I know lets make sure the Judge is on our side and already believes us, that will make it much easier to make sure the outcome is the one we want.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
I suppose it would be a waste of time to explain to this genius that the "problem" of file sharing in Canada is largely a myth and has been discredited.
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
Hey, Orrin. Just an FYI - those numbers have been proven wrong, on numerous occasions by numerous sources. And not wrong in the "close but not quite accurate" sense - wrong as in "so far off from any vague hint of accuracy as to be laughable." You keep quoting numbers that are being fed to you by the MPAA and RIAA and they're making you look stupid. You might want to have one of your staff members do a smidge of research so you don't look quite so idiotic. Oh, and when you spout off these incorrect numbers, it weakens any other point you may have by association. But, hey, you enjoy that new deck that the RIAA/MPAA donation allowed you to add to your country home.
The Right whines and makes up numbers as scare tactics, and the Holy Left appoints the RIAA's attack dogs to run the justice department.
I'm thinking it's time to move to Canada.
Wait, I thought there was a special tax in Canada on blank media that the government just handed over to the RIAA-equivalent.
Orrin Hatch reminds of putrid old snatch. (C) 2009 all rights reserved
Hope is the currency of fools
Some things the Senator needs to understand:
1/ Other countries are INDEPENDENT and the United States has no authority to dictate to them.
2/ Industry funded studies designed to "prove" their viewpoint cannot be trusted.
3/ Copyright under the U.S. Constitution was not intended to be eternal. It was supposed to be for a limited time and I suspect that "limited" was meant in compared to the human life span not compared to eternity.
3/ The DMCA is bad law and should be repealed rather than encouraging others to implement the same
It is estimated that the US printing industry lost Eleventy Billion Dollars in book sales last year from all those freeloading bastards reading at their local public library, which also contributed to heavy losses in the paper manufacturing industry....
Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property; A Corporation is the legal fiction that property is a person.
This has been thoroughly debunked by Professor Michael Geist a law professor at the University of Ottawa where he hold the Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law.
Yes, I live in Utah.
Yes, I am Mormon.
Yes, I really dislike Orin Hatch.
...oh, wait. This Orrin Hatch, who.voted for the DMCA along with the rest of the Gopasaurs. Both parties suck on IP issues.
Okay, maybe I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but if Americans aren't spending money on mp3s and downloaded movies, aren't they instead spending that money elsewhere? We have one of the lowest savings rates in the world, so it's not like the money is disappearing into our savings accounts. Therefore, downloading content on the internet should theoretically cost the economy $0 and $0 jobs, or at least considerably less than the figures quoted in the article, and instead create new jobs in other sectors rather than lining the pockets of movie execs. Then again, this whole philosophy is moot if nobodyâ(TM)s following the Pirates Code of Honor and buying content that is actually good.
But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
The crux of the problem with "the pirate bay convictions" is that they aren't being properly tried under local law. The fact that they had their stuff seized and then returned to them should have been indication enough that the problem isn't with the pirate bay's activities, but with the local laws. Their present conviction is quite wrongful.
Hatch rather reminds me of my ex-wife who believed that anything that made her angry must be against the law and so was inclined to call the police to resolve it. Hatch, of course, is one of the bought and paid for politicians and I simply can't believe anyone is taking him seriously any more... well okay, I can believe it simply because the general masses still don't get what is wrong with current copyright law and process... and definitely don't get that different countries have different ideals and standards of law.
I would have been an interesting turn of things if the U.S.S.R. was able to peddle its influence to have other nations change their laws the way the U.S. does. And outside of the U.S. I am fairly certain that the practice is both unappreciated and unwelcome. It is probably one of the larger reasons the U.S. is presently disliked in the world.
...but it's a drop in the bucket in a senate election. So while I am just as annoyed at Senator Hatch as the next geek, I think accusing him of being bought is probably tactically stupid. First, because it's probably not true. Second, because there's probably another reason he holds this particular position. And third, because he probably actually believes what he's saying.
There are two ways to get him to stop being such a powerful advocate for copyright interests. One is to get him replaced. The other is to get him to change his mind. Getting him replaced is going to be really, really hard. But by all means, go for it. Only I really doubt the average Utahn is going to vote him out on the basis of his position on copyright, even if they disagree with him. So that's a really big job.
The other possibility is that you could get him to come around to seeing how much economic damage the RIAA and MPAA positions are doing to our economy. I think that's pretty hard too. But maybe not impossible. But one thing that is impossible is that you will get him to even listen to you if you start talking about how he's blowing the MPAA to get campaign contributions. The electoral system works the way it works. I want it to change as much as you do. But it's not going to change because you make nasty accusations. It's going to change because you work for it, or not at all.
If someone is losing money, it is not because someone else is stealing it. It is because the product is not competitive. If an album is not selling, it is not because of piracy, it is because it is not competitive. Either enough money has not been spent on marketing, or it is priced too high, or it is too hard to get. How many of us pay more to get milk from the corner store. How many of us would pay that same high price at the big grocery stores. Recorded music still has value, just not the value it did. I am sure Mr. Hatch is confused to why a audio tape manufacturers are not making as much as they did, and probably wanted to a bailout to help them. Under his logic, I could build a fishing pole, sell it for a while, then make it more expensive or reduce the quality, then claim that pirates have stolen my design and I need the feds help.
Although economics is not a zero sum game, one person does sometimes get rich at the expense of another, or at least that is the perception. The music industry is currently in an uproar that it cannot extort more money from the radio stations. Sure the music industry provides the raw materials, but it is the radio station that adds value. What I would like to see an end to compulsory licensing. They could use a bid based system, you know, we will play you album on the station only if you charge this much and no more. Oh, you want the money you used to get, won't happen. Not in a capitalist market.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
As ever, the media companies are deploying insupportable statistics. Most of the numbers for 'lost revenue' are coming form multiplying 'estimates' for the number of files shared by the recommended retail price of the shared item, which makes the huge leap of believing that every single download that the RIAA thinks happened represents a lost sale that otherwise would have taken place. This assumption is not only naive but studies have shown that people who download music for free also buy more music. In the UK the government is basing policies on similarly erroneous information bought and paid for by the media companies. In that particular case the 'academic study' got it's numbers for lost revenue from an industry press release...
If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
Oh, that's nothing. Think how much money this "Fair Use" nonsense has cost the industry.
Most of the stuff on
Orrin Hatch has taken over $96,000 From the TV/Movies/Music lobby already.
Just a snippet from the blog cited above...
I bet it was the free Metallica tickets for life. Hatch rules the mosh pit.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
start defending this idiot.
Okay... uh... he works hard for the bribes the mafiaa pays him. You can't accuse him of not delivering.
...so this is even more pathetic. But then this is the same Hatch that helped block 60 of Clintons judicial nominees, only to have his party threaten to blow up the Senate if the Democrats didn't give an "upordown" vote for all of Bushs nominees. Now of course that a Dem is back in the White House, the GOP is threatening to filibuster Obamas picks before he's even made them.
We've lost 1 million jobs each month due to our corporate and government corruption (same damn thing if you ask me).
We cant be a nation of film makers and muscians. Its not going to float this sinking economy. The real problem is greed, corruption, outsourcing, our law makers bending over backwards for those that would sell out America at every opportunity.
Downloading a shitty movie here and there that still makes 200 million in profit, is not costing us that much.
There are far bigger problems, and i find it hysterical that Oren Hatch (who is part of the problem) is acting as if some how the pirate bay is more significant than health care or the economy.
Perhaps more people are pirating stuff because they can no longer afford to LIVE in the country Oren Hatch supposedly represents. Thanks Oren you fucking tool.
Every one of these politicians live like kings in these "tough economic times"
Give me a break. Fuck off and DO SOMETHING FOR THE PEOPLE FOR ONCE!!!!!!
blame darpa... they invented the interwebs of piracy
So it's all Al Gore's fault?
Good god. #1 The banks and investment firms that didn't get involved in the mortgage backed securities nonsense are doing JUST FINE. And it appears that the real problem is the phony money that is being made in the markets. If the U.S. had the same strong manufacturing base that we once had, we would not be nearly as affected as we have been. All of our manufacturing is sent overseas and now our value is is based on how much money we move around. And when the markets crash, the value of our money crashes right along with it. So then what do we have to rebuild with? Not much. That's why we are seeing cars of all types being sold at 50% or more off MSRP today.
And here's the kicker -- we know what the causes are and have been. Nothing has been done to prevent it from happening again. They want to prop things back up and get back to partying like it was 1999.
In all the brouhaha from the payout, to wall street vs main, TARP, GM, Chryseler, Sotamayor, and great big plans for the new Health care... if the Republicans couldn't find something to take a stand on, anything ... then they deserve what they get. Outvoted and silenced.
I find it odd, from news a few weeks back that the recognized "voice of the Republican party" is Rush Limbaugh; and Mr. Limbaugh is a self-proclaimed "non-party" conservative.
Is there is point in defending Republicans? Sadly, they are leaderless, clueless, and helpless. I have faith in conservatism, but no faith in Republicans to bring about conservatism.
The good senator may have missed a few points about the Pirate Bay trial.
Firstly, the guilty verdict has been appealed. I don't think we are likely to see the Swedish Supreme Court pass sentence for a good many years yet. And before the Supreme Court hands out a sentence, I don't think you should consider the matter settled. In fact, even after the Swedish Supreme Court, the accused might appeal to the European court (I'm not sure they have the legal possibility, but they might, and if so I think they will take it).
Secondly, the judge is suspected of being biased, and because of this the trial might be declared invalid. The reason this suspicion has arisen is that the judge is a member of two organisations whose purpose it is to strengthen copyright and/or trademark (or similar) protection. Among the other members of at least one of these organisations are the legal representatives for the plaintiffs.
If the trial is declared void, it might be a few years before we get a sentence again.
From Prof. Michael Geist's blog BSA Admits Canadian Software Piracy Rates Estimated; Canada Viewed as Low Piracy Country, the following shows that these statistics are just made up...
A quick google search will land you at a link to http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_32/b4045001.htm That article, while talking about pets, states "Americans spend on the movies ($10.8 billion), playing video games ($11.6 billion), and listening to recorded music ($10.6 billion) combined"
So according to the RIAA and MPAA we spend 33 billion on movies, video games, and music combined but some how piracy is costing the American economy almost twice what it actually spent on that industry? I know they inflate numbers, but this is beyond hyperbole.
Sadly, they are leaderless, clueless, and helpless.
That's what people said about the Democrats before they were able to adopt "Hey, at least we're not Bush!" as their slogan.
I always thought those studies put piracy on the wrong side of the balance sheet: that's 56 billions dollars saved; not a 56 billion dollar cost. 373,000 jobs lost? That's over 15 millions hours each week of free time to spend with children
In other news, unchecked air-breathing by the earth's entire population costs governments trillions of dollars of lost revenue, billions of air-accounting jobs and millions of death by old age.
The free availability of air to anyone with the simple capability to just *SUCK IT IN* willy-nilly skews the whole thing wildly. We don't know what people would do if wanton free-for-all air-breathing weren't an option. It very well might be possible that the accounting and sale of air (by the gallons) would create huge revenues for government and private businesses. Again, we don't know because people can just... you know... inhale and exhale at will.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/930731/posts
When I see a DVD screener of a movie that hasn't been released yet, exactly who is responsible? The industry. Obviously industry insiders are a bigger problem than these morons are willing to admit. Sure, point fingers at everyone else while your own people are stealing the revenue right out from under you.
Take it a step farther, and think of how much money the record industry could make if they could just impose an arbitrary tax on all people! There are, what, 300 million people in the US? Assume each person really should be buying 10 albums a year (whether they want them or not) at $20 per CD, and the RIAA can pull down $60 billion a year. Think of how good that would be for the economy!
I mean, if we're going to absolve the industry from having to provide a service that people want to pay for, then we may as well go in whole hog.
GamePolitics notes that for his 2006 campaign, Hatch was rented for $7,000 by the RIAA and also got on his knees for $12,640 from the MPAA."
I think I speak for everyone when I ask "Did they film it?"
I understand that piracy can make someone think they lost money (it is disputable, but there's at least a bit of truth to that claim). However, I have yet to meet a person that was fired (or a company that went down) because the company's product was pirated too much. Naturally I'm not counting cases where the person in question leaked the product herself.
Short .nfo:
cracked by Zedrick in his 34th year of glory. Greetings to all old friends in the Amigascene! Note: Copyright-info removed to fit release in one sentence.
"Orrin Hatch reminds of putrid old snatch."
Today's republicans are like democrats from 50 years ago, today's democrats are like liberals from 50 years ago, and today's liberals are like libertarians from 50 years ago. I myself prefer to be independent and back any good ideas and shun any bad ones.
50 years from today, I imagine politics will still suck.
"Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
Here are some thoughts about what the summary says:
After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors
Let's assume that if it's large, it's important. I guess that if something is important to you, the downfall of anything that opposes it is good. But even at the expense of sane legal systems in other countries? Maybe Orin Hatch should take a word from a party fellow, GWB, about ensuring democracy and Rule of Law in other countries ;-)
costs the US economy $58 billion in total output, costs American workers 373,375 jobs and $16.3 billion in earnings, and costs federal, state, and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue.
Let's see... the 16.3 billion dollars freed up by not having to be spent on music, I guess people just park them in their bank accounts---right? Or maybe people spend the money elsewhere, so that other people earn the same money (through jobs) and pay taxes off of them.
This seems awfully hard to measure. I'm sure those who came up with the numbers did their due diligence and did this hard measurement, so that the $16.3e9 figure is the difference between money saved on music and money spent on other stuff.
But I could be hopelessly naive ;-)
Ah, yes, the old "no true scotsman" argument. Standby of the man who's lost every rationale he ever had to defend what means the most to him.
Republicans spent many years villifying anyone who dared to disagree with them on any issue while elevating filth such as Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilly, and Beck to spokespersons and role models for their movement.
Republicans opened religious and geopolitical extremists with open arms which relegated all the moderates to Independence or pushed them into the democratic party. They elected a stuttering buffoon who drove the country deep into debt with nothing to show for it, destroyed our standing with the rest of the world as a beacon of hope and leadership, and forced a division of loyalties not seen in this country for nearly 50 years.
For their troubles they've been pushed to the fringe by a reliably moderate majority of Americans who have had enough with their extremist views and tactics. Now the republicans are finding that fearmongering and hate only go so far before people get wise to those antics and reject them for more intelligent and useful ideas.
The republicans made this bed. Now they can lie in it until they decide to clean up their act and start acting in a responsible and adult manner again. Or, they can die and let a more thoughtful and reasonable opposition to the democrats replace them. Either way, the republicans are what they are, and it's rapidly sending them to the abyss of irrelevance.
All that said, democrats in this thread bashing Hatch because of the R next to his name would do well to remember that our democratic vice president is pretty friendly to the same people Hatch is, and our president is staffing key legal positions with ex-lawyers from the types of firms that would be more than happy to prosecute torrent users and hosters on American soil the way the Pirate Bay was tried.
"...we must ensure that all copyrighted works, both here and abroad, are protected from online theft and traditional physical piracy."
Yar, mateys... hoist the sails and get the cannons ready. A cargo ship containing 50,000 copies of High School Musical 3 is due to cross our path in a half hours time.
Or the republicans can just wait for the democrats to f' it all up and have the pendulum swing back the other way.
The problem is that anytime one side 'wins' they think it gives them 'a mandate' to push any and all of their policies regardless of how extremist they are. This inevitably always backfires and ends with the other party in power once again.
I heard Bill Clinton doesn't inhale. Maybe they could use him as a case study...
Orrin Hatch is the same dumbass that 4 years ago proposed developing a way to destroy computers that illegally download music. Hatch has family connections to the RIAA, his kid did some legal work for them a while back. But perhaps his real reason for supporting stupid copyright laws is that he wants to make money as a singer-songwriter of Christian music.
Orrin Hatch is routinely among the most annoying men in Washington, and that is saying something.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
One could describe a significant portion of Republicans as Neo-statists rather than conservatives. There are very few true conservatives in Congress. I find it funny that libertarians many times dislike conservatives while not understanding the definition of true conservatism. The truth is that when it comes to the federal government there is no difference between a libertarian and a conservative, it is only once you drill down to state and local governments where differences begin to form.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
I personally believe that these piracy figures in the multi-billion dollar ranges are actually some sort of tax-evasion-scheme by RIAA/MPAA...
Sleep: A completely inadequate substitution for Caffeine.
Thuis is why you look at trends and otehr impacts.
Is the entertainment still tracking higher then the economy in terms of revenue?
And this is revenue, not profit.
Meaning, the economy tanks 10% and the entertainment industry tanks 8% then it's not ding that bad.
Does it also track with other consumer good reletive to history?
When those factors are accounted for, then you will ahve an idea on how piracy is impacting the industry.
Studies like that were done a few years ago, but the entertainment industry was doing better then expected. Other factors were leanng towards piracy helping sale by increasing word of mouth.
Just looking at the last 10 years, it seems pretty clear that it is not having the impact they claim becasue there really wouldn't be any industry left.
Economists and accountants know how to do this, it's not magic it just takes knowledge and smarts.
The studies the trot out, to the best of my knowledge, have been extremely poor studies.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
HOLD IT.
President Bush signed TARP, the largest of the bailouts into law, long before the election.
How is that Obama's fault?
It's been a long time.
I agree. And the funny thing is, when I was in high school, we were still taught the definition of "socialism", "conservatism", and "libertarian". Seems like that may have stopped happening a while ago. Or people are just being *gasp* deliberately obtuse about their true meanings just to support their own political views.
"But this one goes to 11!"
How is it libellous? Are you saying that being a Christian song writer is a bad thing and no one in their right mind would wish to have such a label applied to them?
"I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
In Canada they did that.
Which is why this is having such a hard time making file sharing illegal.
And as for the politicians....Do you want to be the guy to say "Good news everyone, we're making it so the music industry can sue you for millions!"
It's been a long time.
We don't know what people would do if piracy weren't an option. It very well might be possible that the sales of games and movies might be significantly higher.
We don't know what people would do if piracy weren't an option. It very well might be that the sales of games and movies might be significantly lower.
I'm not gonna say "fixed that for you" because it could be either your way or my way based on the evidence in your post. If you're going to say something like "we have no idea", you can't then posit that one thing "might very well be" without recognizing that the other thing could also very well be. If you think one way is more likely than the other, then you have to say why that is.
Just to be clear, Sen. Orrin does not represent every republican's view on this.
You don't even need to think about bribes. He's recorded an album, and fancies himself as an artist.
Don't forget that this is the man who advocating being able to remotely *destroy* computers of *suspected* "pirates".
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
Well we express severe disappointment in the U.S. for showing up on our watch list for nations that are known to use torture along with Israel, China, Iran and Afghanistan.
Yeah, but violating copyright is a far far worse crime than the mere use of extended interrogation techniques.
That's a lot of gaffers and grips.
HOLD IT.
Unless my memory is faulty our CURRENT PRESIDENT voted for it himself...in his capacity as a United States Senator.
Right there is how it's Obama's fault. He didn't try and stop it and actually voted FOR it.
Also, please read the first paragraph of this link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Economy/story?id=6654133&page=1
Obama himself WANTED TARP and access to TARP money.
All Bush did was sign it into law, it's the CONGRESS that made the program. In everyone's rush to BushBash they seem to forget how the U.S. Government actually works.
Oh, and that same Congress that passed T.A.R.P. was majority DEMOCRAT!
Isn't political bashing fun? It can go on all day...and not solve one god damned thing.
Uhh? you mean like the Canadian copyright levy on blank audio recording media ?
Requiem for the American Dream
Then hopefully you are doing the responsible thing and boycotting their artists and not doing the selfish thing of downloading their material for free.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
Mark Twain considered himself to be a storyteller. And his works are all public domain now. Guy's been dead a hundred years, quit including him in with the scum sucking leeches^F^F^Fcorporados^Fmedia companies...
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
You know, he didn't say mark twain was an idiot ecause of anything copyright related. Dude just hates Samuel Clemens.
You agree with Hatch that Canada is in the same league as Russia and China about copyright infringement?
Canada is not too different from the States and probably has about the same amount of copyright infringement. No one sells CDs or DVDs on the street corner unless they recorded it themselves with their own IP and I've only seen that twice. Downloading is probably equal to the rest of the western world. Only thing is there is no DMCA so if I purchase a DVD I can break the encryption and play it on my non-windows computer legally.
Also IP based industry is perhaps even more important in Canada as so many American companies come up here to film movies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
And Canada doesn't even have "Fair Use". So obviously the States is even worse then Canada about Copyright, letting people infringe copyright for satire, parody etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing#Fair_dealing_in_Canada
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
So 1 vote out of 535 and a continuation of someone else's policies and plans makes Obama more culpable than the man who actually proposed the idea - Paulson - and the only single man other than Paulson who ever had the ability to stop it - Bush.
Makes perfect sense to me.