Slashdot Mirror
Getting Beyond the Helldesk
An anonymous reader writes "I've been working as a helpdesk monkey for over a year in a small-medium sized law firm of around 200 users and I don't know if my patience and sanity can last much longer. I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook. There isn't really any room for progression at my current employer, and with the weak job market it seems I can only move sideways into another support role. I've been considering a full-time Masters degree in a specialized Computer Science area such as databases or Web development, but I don't know if the financial cost and the loss of a year's income and experience can justify it. Do any Slashdotters who have made it beyond the helpdesk have any knowledge or wisdom to impart? Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?"
I've noticed that most people are getting smarter, understand technology, privacy, business, free enterprise, propoganda, and are becoming less reliant on help desks, friends, church groups, retailers, and especially the government for help.
Just stick with it, I'm sure it will get better! How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
" I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook."
Um. If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job. Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.
IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.
Ahh, message got cutoff. (AJAX is overrated )
I was going to say that getting a BSc is definitely worthwhile (if you don't have one), and a MSc will definitely help you stand out when your resume lands on someone's desk. I'm having a hard time understanding how someone with a CS or Software Engineering degree could end up in your position though. (Maybe I'm ignorant...)
You seem to be under the misapprehension that it gets better once you are out of the helpdesk. It only looks like it does. You get less stupid end-users, and more stupid bosses.
Get out, now, while you still can. Go get a degree in plumbing, or electrical work. (Heck, if you want to stay with computers, get certified to install fiber. It's only going to grow, and I've had trouble finding anyone to install it in the new house.) Something that doesn't expect you for the rest of your life to be answering the phone at 12:45am on random nights.
Got to run, the pager's going off...
'Sensible' is a curse word.
They have master degrees in "database" and "web development?"
Ahhhh, my Television is moving!!!
If you really want to stay in IT and don't want to learn a programming language learn a UNIX. Even half way decent UNIX admins are few and far between, I know a number of companies hiring.
Just download a BSD, Linux distro or Open Solaris and use that for your desktop at home. Tinker, read and study and you can get a job out of helpdesk.
Hate to break it to you but you won't necessarily get away from distractions and you may not entirely move away from support. Every job I've ever worked in included distractions and some amount of support work.
I currently work as a software developer but I also work to troubleshoot the existing systems, and I do take second tier customer calls (so less problems, but usually harder ones). I even work shifts and do on-call support. My job's a good one - prestigeous, reasonable pay so I'm not complaining.
That's not to say I would rather be on a help desk, or that you shouldn't try to better yourself. Just make sure your expectations are realistic.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Go back to school. Have sex with college girls while you still can. Go to any open lectures and take some off the wall classes. Study abroad or save your money for six months and party in Brazil. Meet some people who have lofty ideas, and try to get jobs at companies with the same.
You aren't going to learn anything but how to take shit and wallow in misery at your current job. If you think that's a valuable skill that you need to learn, then stay.
Way back in the day, I worked at Creative Labs tech support, and those of us in higher positions were made to sit on a Helpdesk, consisting of 4 stations. When an agent would get stumped, they'd call the helpdesk and get one of us at random. Now, some of the folks who had to sit on this thing were not the sharpest tools in the shed. So one day, to screw with a particularly stupid self important idiot, I sat next to him, just up the hunt group chain, so that if my phone was busy or didn't answer the call would go to him.
So I turned my phone down to almost no ring volume, and every time my phone would ring, I'd wait til the 3rd ring, point over to his phone, and say "Your phone will ring... now". The dumbass got mad because he couldn't figure out how I was doing it for over an hour.
I did of course, get a "stern" talking to afterward, BUT, the supervisor was doing his best to not laugh his ass off as he was telling me to please not do it again.
Two other things:
1. A masters may not help as a developer. I have a masters but it's in Astronomy and I did it with no intention of taking on Astronomy as a job. Every time I add the qualification to the list, HR takes it back off. I'm not even sure certain HR staff know the difference between Astronomy and Astrology.
2. You might find it easier to get your foot in the door somewhere else rather than try to move into a development role in your current company. If you're already doing a job well, the company has less incentive to move you elsewhere (until they realise you'll leave otherwise, by which time it's too late). It'll be tough in this market.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
First provide me with your employers contact information. Then quit so you'll feel motivated to find somthing else. I'll apply for your old job so you won't feel tempted to go back to it.
It depends on if you want to be a database one trick pony or a programmer or a sysadmin.
A help desk job is where you cut your teeth for being a sysadmin. If you want to be a dba or programmer, you don't need any experience in the real world. You just go to school and hope it's real life.
If you are interested in being a sysadmin, then understand that you are supporting users, and there are sysadmins supporting you.
Hang out with them and ask them to show you how they do their jobs. Learn about the stuff schools can't and never will be able to afford to teach you. SAN's, Fiber switching, the proprietary tools for HP, Sun, IBM, Dell. Use lunch, free time, smoke breaks, after work- whatever.
Sysadmins always have job offers or know people at other companies with job offers that may not be at their level, but at yours. There is no downside.
Secondarily, you should take advantage of their education program. If it's a law firm, they have one. Put in for your RHCE or LPI or MCSE or whatever the hell it is you're working on. Buy or download the book and make them pay for the tests. A cert will get you more pay than a Master's in anything. Unless you are bucking for middle management or want to write obscure code, a Master's won't do dick.
If you really want to leave though- and you know this because you go home, lay in bed, and literally say "I have to get out of this place" every day- then leave. You ain't gonna learn shit. Follow your gut first, head second.
School is a fine fallback if you have money, but if you don't then guess what. This is your school. You won't ever forget working help desk. People in pain learn their maximum threshold for bullshit, so it's good to learn yours early so you don't spin out when you get a job that actually pays the bills. Helpdesk is hell by repetition. DBA, Sysadmin, and maybe Programmer are hell by catching shit from all sides.
I can't tell you what to do. I can tell you that I, and many of the people here, were in your exact position. If you don't want to kill yourself yet, then you aren't finished. Take advantage of what's around you and then opportunities will open up.
Stay with it , its the people who who are longest in the job that become managers.
Hell, that's good enough reason to quit! Manager of a help desk means you have to take the calls of the screamers who escalate themselves above the first line monkeys, and you take the blame every time you're short staffed because Joe and Jane didn't show up 'cause they're hung-over again.
John
you could go back to school & work at the university while you're there. Generally, the IT Departments at universities are pretty big and they give you a good idea of anything you're going to encounter. At my university when someone shows initiative and they're competent and not a douche they pretty much always get the chance to prove themselves - ymmv, but I get the impression that quite a few universities are like this.
If you get on as a student, that's cool, part time, focus on school, show some initiative and try to get a full time job
If you get on as a full timer - awesome for you - most universities offer pretty good benefits, a lot of them include stuff like tuition wavers (full or partial - either way, you're going to end up paying less.)
and finally, working at a university IT department doesn't necessarily mean being in a support role -
our it department has an application development group, a services group (support), a project management group, a system administration/network admin group, a business group that handles contracts & such with other departments/companies, a research computing group (super computers), a dedicated security group, an administration group (payroll), and an HR group. Of those, sysadmins, services, and app devs have to do support. Everyone else is only rarely customer facing. The likelihood that you're going to get into the non-support groups right away is pretty slim, but movement has a tendency to be really fluid.
In case you didn't get the main point of this - the important thing is showing initiative. Show that you're interested in doing something new and interesting - show it by talking to people who do it already and trying to shadow them. Work with your bosses to get involved in projects, do things to get noticed. =)
With a 200 person law firm, you're probably the lowest of 2 or 3 people. Find a position somewhere where you're the jack-of-all-trades -- you do the tech support, server management, web development, purchasing, etc. You'll work long hours because the tech support prevents focused work on the other things, so be prepared. But you'll learn alot if you're driven and you can finally have "Server Administration" or "Web Design" on your resume. It won't get you into Google, but experience may get you a junior admin job.
To find this entry level everything job, look at 100 person or less businesses or colleges. Colleges will be easier as they aren't money driven.
Alternatively, in this job market, go to school.
Engineerus Originalus:
At the very pinnacle of the IT world, these are the people who invent the things that the rest of the IT world relies on for THEIR jobs. The ones who truly deserve the word "engineer" in their job titles. They work for places like Intel, Google, Microsoft, Cisco, etc. Getting here requires nothing less than a Master's degree.
Managerius Pseudogeek:
These people got a four-year CS degree and jumped straight into the job market. They lack the rigors of graduate school, and the practical knowledge that comes with real job experience and/or industry certifications. A lot of front-line software developers fall into this category, though all the really good ones actually belong to the species Scholarus Basementi (see below). In a healthy and growing economy, these folks can get jobs in a variety of fields, from webdev to DBA. In a down economy, they are frequently passed over by experienced people who are already in the industry and desperate to do whatever is necessary to stay there. It should be noted that this species belongs to the Genus Managerius because four-year degrees carry power in the corporate world, but these individuals lack the real intellectual rigor to rise to the top of their fields technically. This leaves middle management as the usual endpoint for their careers.
Genericus Certificans:
Probably the single largest species of IT professional, they bear a great superficial resemblance to Scholarus Basementi but lack the distinctive colors, odors, and sounds that Basemeni uses to distinguish itself when interacting socially. Many have two year Associate CS degrees, but the majority can be identified by the way they build their nests out of an accumulation of IT industry certifications. If you look inside their cubicle and find both Project+ AND "IBM Certified Solution Designer" certificates posted up then you know you've identified a Certificans. Older members of the species will still proudly display their Novell CNAs. Virtually all IT professionals with the word "Administrator" in their job title belong to this species, though the ones that self-identify as "BOFH" will desperately try to pass themselves off as Basmenti.
Scholarus Basmenti
This species is entirely self-taught, and their individual skill levels vary wildly. The less able members of this species frequently flock around the more advanced individuals in order to camouflage their weaknesses. These packs of Basmenti, led by an Alpha, are highly territorial and competitive. It is believed that their incessant desire to compete for control over FOSS projects or to get credit for "clever hacks" is rooted in their job insecurity. Those who are not unemployed are often found working entry-level helpdesk jobs. Those who do better economically are typically Alphas who went out and obtained a degree or an industry certification to validate their ample innate talents. Basmenti can easily be distinguished from Certificans when asked about their credentials. While Certificans will speak proudly of their achievements, Basmenti will ridicule their own credentials as "worthless paper" or boast about how they passed their exams hung over without bothering to study. Occasionally, especially talented Basmenti who also show aptitude forming healthy human relationships will be able to obtain Venture Capital and will eventually rise to the very top of the "Foo Chain." Once at this point, they will spend lots of the "Foo's" money to hire members of all three other species, who will look at the unschooled savant with naked resentment and envy.
I'm having a hard time understanding how someone with a CS or Software Engineering degree could end up in your position though. (Maybe I'm ignorant...)
I will give you the answer; the companies that hire BSc graduates in "IT" tend to be call centers and help desk type companies. In the 1990s you could go straight out of college and land an 80K per year job. These days you are lucky to land a help desk job. Of course the more successful people will have embellished their experiences on their resumes and with their references. The smart people often end up programming in their parents basement.
I'll second this - my previous job wasn't in the IT sector, but it WAS call center and it DID involve a lot of IT; my company was developing new LOB software in-house for which I was consulting, and I was working on some of my own projects involving process-and-procedure documentation and some automation using Office to make up for some of the shortcomings of the new system which the developers could not/would not address.
I was promoted to supervisory status for my above-and-beyond work performance and contributions to the company. I was ecstatic at first - with the burden of constantly taking phone calls lifted, I was free to complete these projects I was working on faster...or so I thought. Managers often seem like idiots because they're dealing with everyone else's problems and have no time for their own. Be careful what you wish for.
...and then I got laid off, along with most of my team (save two people, who where able to relocate) and the entire rest of the building. Wheeeee economy!
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
I personally would be happy if I could get a competent help desk monkey, but unfortunately after downsizing, I was lucky enough to have help desk monkey added to my network admin responsibilities. I'm going to make some assumptions here: You already have a bachelors degree, your work pays all or part of certification and/or formal education, and you actually like IT work.
First thing you need to do is get exposure to some of the things you think you may like to do in IT. Read about them, talk to admins, dba's, etc. in your own company, or find someone in another company you could talk to about their work.
Once you have a good idea what you want to do, start going to school or training courses for it. Whether you choose online training, night classes, etc. is up to you, but education will help you move out of help desk work.
You will also need hands on work aside from just learning about the trade you pick, so I would suggest (as other have) to load software at home and start working with it. Hands on work is an excellent complement to book learning, and will ensure you know the material.
As far as dealing with your current job while you are working towards your goal, it would help if you changed your attitude towards your work. Instead of getting pissed that you have to unjam paper or help someone with their software, try showing the person how they can fix it themselves. If they don't want to learn it, then that's fine. I think most people would rather not have to call someone and wait for help if they can fix the issue on their own. Get creative. If you are working towards being a DBA or web designer, try setting up a self-service web site where the user can type in a problem and your program lists common fixes. It would be a great way to get the experience you need and definitely something to put on your resume.
Remember that there are a lot of people without jobs, some with families, that would kill to just be getting a steady paycheck. Be thankful.
An internal helpdesk for responding to employee problems may be a good stepping stone. The problem is that employees and managers only see you when stuff is broken, and you are out of mind when stuff is running without issue. So, there is an association with the helpdesk people and problems.
;-)
One thing that may accumulate surprisingly good results: keep some track of who you have helped out and find the time to simply go ask, "Is it still alright?". Now they remember you fixed something for them (maybe even what it was), they re-associate you with the current no-problem state, and the smarter of them appreciate that you care enough about *their* work to actually come ask. People talk in any company, big or small.
BTW, some will see it as you care about the company's productivity, some will see it as you care about your fellow workers as people; both are a big addition to mere "good fixing tech problems". Don't expect much direct feedback though, it's easier if you keep it just a matter of professional pride and a (maybe quite refreshing) daily habit.
Just check before that there indeed is no problem when you go ask.
Submitter here. I current hold a upper-second class (the next step down from a first class, don't know how American colleges grade their awards) honours BSc in Comp Sci from a reasonably well-respected UK university. So I meet the criteria for most Computer Science Masters courses that I have come across.
Regarding your confusion of my current position, when I first graduated I was unsure if I was suitable for any kind of development role, which I suppose is the avenue taken by a large proportion of Comp Sci graduates. I was good enough at programming to pass the modules, but I never really programmed for pleasure or got involved beyond what was required of me academically. I know that makes me a blasphemer and a poser on here!
I worked in unrelated fields for a couple of years, which wasn't terrible as I paid off a lot of debt, especially at the beginning while living with the parents. My current job is my first 'proper' IT role, and considering my initial circumstances it seemed like quite a good first rung of the ladder. However, I have felt for quite a while that I both wanted to leave my current area of residence as well as thinking that this job is not right for me. It just feels like the right time to start planning a clean break, and soon, especially with the new academic year creeping up.
I have enough money saved up to live and study for a whole year, so the finance side of a Masters is not the major hurdle if the qualification would be worthwhile. I quite like the idea of going back to academia and taking it seriously this time, no more skipping lectures due to hangovers and doing it half-assed like my Bachelors. Working with colleagues that are involved with data management and web development as part of their own roles, and finding it quite interesting from where I stand, I have been looking at Masters programmes that specialise in these areas, rather than just do another year of general Comp Sci. There aren't that many programmes in these areas so my options are limited but still out there.
Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
The bottom line is that companies will hire without education, but they will not hire without experience (even someone with education). If you do run into a company that is requiring a degree (specifically). Then the problem is that they do not understand the job well enough to hire someone into it. It is your job at that point to sell yourself to them, show them why they were wrong in requiring a degree by explaining your experience, and also that this experience cannot be taught in school. I have found that most people understand that experience is far more important than education (after all keg-stands and beer bongs bring very little value to a company - unless of course your company sells kegs and beer bongs). Fact is that there is no job on this planet that is not attainable school or not, you just need to be able to convince the other guy that you can do it better than anyone with an attendance sheet from a University.
If you are truly motivated and it is time for a move, hit your resume hard (biggest recommendation here is to cut out the fluff - all of it), start shopping for jobs, and start showing up for interviews (a lower paying job in this economy will pay dividends if you get some experience).
-matt
$diff terrorists hippies
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$rm -rf *terrorists *hippies
So you're guaranteed to be learning old technologies. In this industry, six months counts as old.
Java 1.5 was released after I took Introduction to Programming (with Java 1.4). Three years after taking the course, I was TA'ing said course, with Java 1.5. I don't know exactly how fast the course got upgraded, but I also used Java 1.5 in my compiler course (the year before TA'ing, two years after IntroProg).
Also, studying CS is not about learning ephemeral technologies but eternal principles. It's only incidental that we express the principles in the languages du jour.
I haven't seen the revolt against the Church-Turing thesis, or Rice's Theorem, or against search trees (in particular B-trees on the disk for file systems and DB indexes), or against regexp lexers and LALR(1) parsers, or against relational algebra, or...
100% correct. Law Firms are hell holes to work for - and I'm an attorney! You only see the tip of the political iceberg in those operations.
I've represented over a dozen IT professionals out of the banking industry and age discrimination / outsourcing are so common that you might as well learn to speak Hindi.
Find a medium-sized 3'rd party tech support operation - go to school too - but contemplate broadening your skill set beyond pure IT - take a year to go to the Vancouver Film School and earn one of their computer-based degrees (animation, sound recording/transformation) and lateral into the production industry.
But before you do, listen in the above poster so you can learn the lingo.
Until you can optimize the ROI of a value added function by providing excellence in service provisioning within the ITIL framework, you really haven't lived.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
It really depends on the type of service desk you work at. If you are in a service desk that cares about metrics like time taken on a call, then get out. Now. If you are on a service desk that values root cause analysis and real problem resolution, then stick around and try to get promoted up levels. Most of these service desks have a lot of high value components that are important enough that they'll appreciate you figuring out the actual problem and advising or implementing solutions that prevent further issues in the future.
I work on a service desk for a multi-national corporation supporting one of their software products. However, this software interacts with a lot of cool technologies that make life interesting - directory services, databases, packet analysis, network discovery, etc. There are enough components to the product itself that problems reported can be very interesting to troubleshoot, and I've learned a lot on the job. It also gives me the opportunity to read up on technologies I've never heard of before, or that I'm interested in. I'm fairly certain I'm seen as a reasonably valuable member of the team, so I get a lot of job satisfaction from what I do.
The rule of thumb, IMO, is that if you aren't learning anything new, then you're stagnating and it's probably time to get out of the job.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
my professional colleague in London is having to beat off recruiters
Dear god, is that how you get a recruiters attention in the UK? I hope he at least calls you the next morning or sends flowers or something.
10 years ago:
Kid: "Hi, I want a job writing software!"
Manager: "Tell me what you know about writing software."
Kid: "I saw some C++ code in a textbook once!"
Manager: "Will you accept $80,000 and start tomorrow?"
Today:
Applicant: "Hi, I want a job writing software!"
Manager: "Tell me what you know about writing software."
Applicant: "I have a bachelor of science degree in math with a minor in computer science. I've written 10,000 lines of code in widespread use in an open source project. I've written my own cell phone operating system. I've written 4 applications in the iPhone store. I'm a contributor on the specifications for C++0x."
Manager: "We're sorry, you are woefully underqualified for this junior position. We're looking for someone with ten times as much experience and a master's degree, and we will offer them $35,000 per year."
I'm genuinely happy for you and your success. But I'm guessing you got your start during the dot com boom or something similar. I love developing software, I can't believe I get paid money to do something this interesting. But the opportunities for a self taught person to break in to the industry, as far as I can tell, are tremendously fewer now than in the past.