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A Mathematician's Lament — an Indictment of US Math Education

Scott Aaronson recently had "A Mathematician's Lament" [PDF], Paul Lockhardt's indictment of K-12 math education in the US, pointed out to him and takes some time to examine the finer points. "Lockhardt says pretty much everything I've wanted to say about this subject since the age of twelve, and does so with the thunderous rage of an Old Testament prophet. If you like math, and more so if you think you don't like math, I implore you to read his essay with every atom of my being. Which is not to say I don't have a few quibbles [...] In the end, Lockhardt's lament is subversive, angry, and radical ... but if you know anything about math and anything about K-12 'education' (at least in the United States), I defy you to read and find a single sentence that isn't permeated, suffused, soaked, and encrusted with truth."

104 of 677 comments (clear)

  1. Can't count by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    second!

  2. Several Proxies by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Informative
    I couldn't get this PDF from the frontpage link so via Google Scholar, here's some help:

    From what I can tell, they all look to be the same length and size and hopefully are not older revisions of this paper.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Several Proxies by Red+Flayer · · Score: 5, Funny
      Bah, like we're going to RTFA on a Friday when there are much better, lower-hanging, fruit to pick.

      For example (FTS):

      If you like math, and more so if you think you don't like math, I implore you to read his essay with every atom of my being.

      And just how, pray tell, are we supposed to read his essay with every atom of your being?

      I mean sure, I could read his essay with every atom of my being, but wouldn't it violate some mathematical and physical principles for me to read it with the submitter's being?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    2. Re:Several Proxies by grub · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Troll? Fucking mods don't know humour when they see it.
      Next time link to a video of someone getting a baseball in the nuts, they'll love that..

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    3. Re:Several Proxies by LordKazan · · Score: 2, Funny

      And Pi = 3. So says Jaysus!

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    4. Re:Several Proxies by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Bah, like we're going to RTFA on a Friday when there are much better ...

      I know you're mostly joking but this was a pretty interesting albeit lengthy opinion piece. In fact, he even busts into dialogue between two fictional characters named Simplicio & Salviati to illustrate his point. It's a very Plato/Caroll/Hofstadter sort of way to illustrate his point. Hell, I love this format so much, half my posts are in it!

      Anyway, after reading this, I am really eager for vdash.org to get its wiki up and running so that can be used to build engines and homework for students. Maybe even provide a hub for teachers to discuss interesting assignments? I'm sure the discussion pages will prove interesting if real academics get in arguments about proofs and math. I don't think the real payoff would be reinstitutionalizing the teachers but instead giving the students the free online resources to go the extra mile if they so desire. Save your Turings and Erdoses if you can't help everyone!

      Lockhart is definitely a dreamer and this isn't going to change public schools. But it might change how you as a parent get involved with your children and math.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    5. Re:Several Proxies by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Informative
      You've got too many commas in there.

      If you like math, and more so if you think you don't like math, I implore you with every atom of my being to read his essay.

      I understood what he was trying to say, but observed that there was potential for confusion based upon his word order.

      Being that I'm a bit of a grammar nazi when I feel like it, and that it is Friday, and that we all need a quiet chuckle on Fridays, I decided to try my hand a crafting a somewhat amusing joke based upon the lack of clarity in the summary.

      Does that make you feel better?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    6. Re:Several Proxies by prgrmr · · Score: 4, Informative

      Simplicio and Salviati were characters invented by Galileo (based on real people) for his work "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems"> discussing the Ptolemaic earth-centric theory of the universe, and the Copernican helio-centric theory of the universe.

    7. Re:Several Proxies by oldhack · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Quantum entanglement, duh. You went to American high school, didn't you.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    8. Re:Several Proxies by BorgCopyeditor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Like most natural human languages (those spoken by beings who are trying to communicate with one another and who exhibit the power of judgment), English allows some variation in what elements of sentences go where. No competent English-speaker who hasn't remained retarded in their sexual development at the anal-retentive stage, or developed a weird fetish by the daily practice of putting parentheses around symbolic expressions to coerce mechanical systems into evaluating them in the preferred order, could ever actually misconstrue this sentence as you are doing or pretend to be doing.

      It's ironic that in a comment on a story about the joy of pattern-making and pattern-recognition, you should reveal the ugliness of pattern-enforcement. Don't, for the love of humanity, be a lexer (of any languages but those that need it), and don't go around insisting others think like machines.

      --
      Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
    9. Re:Several Proxies by Tatarize · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Bible says Pi = 3, in the 1st Kings (7:23). That's OT, not NT.

      --

      It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
    10. Re:Several Proxies by rhathar · · Score: 2, Informative

      I present "Man Getting Hit By Football" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV1LWhNpTJU

      --
      http://www.chaotickingdoms.com
    11. Re:Several Proxies by EaglemanBSA · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A pretty good approximation for a society that usually measured them using their forearms, if you ask me. Round 3.14 to the nearest cubit, what do you have? Very closely, 3.

      --
      Quiz: True or False -- On a scale of 1 to 10, what is your middle name?
  3. Slashdotted by PPH · · Score: 3, Funny

    Evidently, someone didn't do the server math.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  4. Cue the other subjects by b0r1s · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problems with K-12 education go WAY BEYOND mathematics.

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    Mooniacs for iOS and Android
    1. Re:Cue the other subjects by SomeJoel · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, but I lost count.

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    2. Re:Cue the other subjects by LordKazan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*fundamentalists*cough*) waging a 30 year war on public education, and people refusing to see and treat education as what it is: an investment in the future national security and economic stability of the united states.

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    3. Re:Cue the other subjects by Em+Emalb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problems with K-12 education go WAY BEYOND mathematics.

      Amen to this.

      I'd say the majority of the issues, though, start at home.

      Too many families are stuck running a two-income home (for a variety of reasons) and simply can't/won't/don't spend the time needed with their children in the formative years.

      A lot of the rest, IMO, can be traced to schools not teaching children how to think critically, just to memorize stuff.

      And that sucks.

      --
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    4. Re:Cue the other subjects by PitaBred · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wow. Way to fail at correcting the parent. He was completely right, which is actually an aberration as far as my experience goes :( A queue is a line. If you cue someone or something, you give them the signal to start. So, cuing the other subjects is appropriate.

    5. Re:Cue the other subjects by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

    6. Re:Cue the other subjects by grub · · Score: 3, Insightful


      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      There would always be people at the bottom, no matter how educated everyone was.
      Lad: Would you like to discuss quantum mechanics? My thesis was about...
      Me: Just get my fucking burger.
      Lad: sorry sir, was this to go?

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    7. Re:Cue the other subjects by b0r1s · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Personally, I put the blame less on fundamentalists and more on decreasing importance of education in the home.

      There are dozens of examples (single mothers with multiple jobs and multiple kids who just don't have time to parent, illegal immigrants raising kids that accept no-skill jobs as manual labor as sufficient for a lifetime instead of working to get an education and work in a skilled field), but the basic problem is that kids don't believe that they need a real education to live.

      --
      Mooniacs for iOS and Android
    8. Re:Cue the other subjects by mh1997 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*fundamentalists*cough*) waging a 30 year war on public education, and people refusing to see and treat education as what it is: an investment in the future national security and economic stability of the united states.

      American education was designed to fail. Read the book (it's free online) The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto. He is a former New York State and New York City Teacher of the Year

      http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/

    9. Re:Cue the other subjects by megamerican · · Score: 4, Informative

      Before you troll and bash "fundamentalists" with no proof you should read a few books on why education in the US is in the state we now see.

      The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America By Charlotte Iserbyt

      An Underground History of Education by John Gatto

      Or read the Dodd Report to the Reece Committee which investigated Tax Free Foundations in the early 1950's.

      --
      If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
    10. Re:Cue the other subjects by i-like-burritos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      Smart people. Wouldn't that be awesome?

    11. Re:Cue the other subjects by geobeck · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A lot of the rest, IMO, can be traced to schools not teaching children how to think critically, just to memorize stuff.

      Even worse is the move away from competitiveness in many areas. I was a teacher for a while, and much of my teacher training was tainted by what was mislabeled "child-centered education" - basically don't do anything that might hurt the feelings of the most sensitive child you could imagine. Don't use a red pen to mark their work because that's an angry color; don't correct their spelling because that stifles their creativity; don't hold academic competitions because the kids who don't win (don't dare call them losers!) will be upset.

      This trend continued despite the fact that high schools started graduating functionally illiterate and innumerate kids, even though they had passed the courses that should have given them reasonable skills in those subjects. Colleges and universities expended their gradual entry programs (basically high school subjects aimed at those who came from a disadvantaged background) until first-year studies were assumed to be nothing more than a high school refresher.

      I left teaching mainly because the schools where I taught were basically big-kid daycare centers where there was very little learning to interfere with the political agendas of the administration and the school boards, but not before I subversively gave a few students the motivation to question what they were taught and learn on their own.

      --
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    12. Re:Cue the other subjects by mustafap · · Score: 2, Funny

      But who would eat there?

      --
      Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
    13. Re:Cue the other subjects by david_thornley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What studies I've seen show approximately no difference between children who have been in day care and children with a stay-at-home parent. (Okay, there's some detail differences early on, but they fade).

      The important thing is the parents' attitude. Young children will emulate their parents, and will try to please them. If the parents make it clear that education will please them, and put enough time and effort into monitoring it to make that perfectly clear, and to be able to tell the difference between learning things and getting good grades, the children will respond appropriately.

      A parent who wants to encourage education, and isn't totally swamped with other things that he or she is basically incapable of parenting, can find a way to do so.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    14. Re:Cue the other subjects by alcourt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Much earlier. Tennessee v Scopes.

      While there was a moral victory for science educators at showing the issues in trying to restrict science education, most discussions I've read of the outcome of the trial point out that the end result was removing from textbooks significant material that was considered offensive.

      This changed dramatically in 1957 with Sputnik. There was a brief rush to teach more advanced technical subjects. Beyond that date, I have anecdotes rather than more solid information about the state of education.

      In math education, many people deride and criticize the New Math movement for focusing on correctness of technique over the answer. This despite the fact that in advanced math, all emphasis was on the technique. A sign error in a multiplication in a calculus class would likely lose a point or two, but would be unlikely to cost you all points in the problem if you showed understanding of the calculus involved. It also helped result in geometry being taught as a mathematics course instead of an engineering course (with theorems and proofs).

      Yet despite that, New Math is often cited as the end of advanced math in schools.

      I will agree that elementary math education has significant issues. I had extreme objections to the math that the public schools tried to teach in the past five years. I objected strongly to the fact that geometry was changed from a mathematics course to an engineering course (no work on theorem proof and studying math as a system of making proofs from axioms and previously proven theorems.)

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    15. Re:Cue the other subjects by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 5, Funny

      But who would eat there?

      Feature, not a bug.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    16. Re:Cue the other subjects by Narishma · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      Robots obviously.

      --
      Mada mada dane.
    17. Re:Cue the other subjects by superwiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Brown v Scopes was actually still a process of deliberation. It was still a time when debate was seen as a truth-seeking exercise (as opposed to today's attempt at proving the other side irrelevant by proving that their position has a flaw).

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    18. Re:Cue the other subjects by oldhack · · Score: 2, Funny

      Fool!!! You gave up the crazy mad teacher money?

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      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    19. Re:Cue the other subjects by vux984 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would point out that the vast majority of senior McDonald's executives started out in a restaurant.

      The ratio of McDonald's executives to Mcdonald's grill / fry / sandwich / cashier persons is pretty daunting. Ultimately only a handful can rise to executive level. Even if everyone wanted to and was capable of the job their isn't room for everyone to advance.

    20. Re:Cue the other subjects by zeropointburn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      By teaching how, rather than why.
      "Here is how to find some property of a right triangle" rather than "Here are the qualities of a right triangle. What can you find using that, and why?"

      While that method is useful in learning how to apply some given formula, it is useless in learning how to derive a formula or understand which one to use and why. Modern US algebra students might be able to tell you the square footage of pen they can construct with a given length of fence. Very few would be able to reverse that rote equation and determine how much fence they need for a certain size of pen (or for a circular pen). If we were taught how to build that basic formula, we would recognize that it is the same problem with a different variable and be able to adjust the formula effortlessly and correctly.

      --
      -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
    21. Re:Cue the other subjects by jacoby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course, that group has a higher percentage than average of home-schoolers.

      And those home-schoolers tend to get much more out of their education than average.

      But go ahead with your beliefs.

    22. Re:Cue the other subjects by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's wrong with smart people working in the service industries?

      That's somewhat of a rhetorical question, but it really isn't a great thing that we have a defacto class system based on keeping some people ignorant and poor while others enjoy luxury. We assume that working in a restaurant should be a job of lesser human beings who aren't deserving of respect, and we've ensured that those jobs don't pay a livable wage.

      We complain about foreigners stealing our jobs, and we complain that poor people are so filled with vice that they don't pull themselves up by the bootstraps. Meanwhile, we make sure our economy is filled with jobs that can't provide what we consider an acceptable quality of life, and we close off routes for upward mobility wherever we can.

      And if smart people did work at McDonalds, their intelligence and education still wouldn't be a complete waste. They'd still probably be better citizens, run the restaurant better, and maybe get my order right every once in a while. And who knows, maybe one of them would someday revolutionize the food service industry with innovative new ideas.

    23. Re:Cue the other subjects by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If everyone were generally qualified for interesting jobs, then boring jobs would pay much, much better. And interesting jobs would pay poorly.

      That already happens with academia: the salaries at research institutions are often less than those in community colleges, simply because the former are more interesting jobs.

    24. Re:Cue the other subjects by hurfy · · Score: 4, Funny

      But bugs already DO, don't they?

    25. Re:Cue the other subjects by mctk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Insightful? Really? Usually for satire, you use the Funny mod. Either myself or the mods are misunderstanding, but I'll respond anyways because this commonly heard quote has *layers* of stupidity. First, the simplest. If everyone was smart, *no one* would work at McDonald's because everyone would realize what shit food it is and stop eating there.

      Is this actually an argument for the promotion of ignorance? No, it's not. It's a way for us to confirm our belief in the American Meritocracy. I don't want to work at McDonald's, that's why I did my homework. Everyone had an equal chance in school. It's what we tell ourselves to help us sleep at night while others starve to death, a shame on our abundant society if ever there was one. But not everyone has an equal chance in school. The inequities are everywhere and in plain sight. If you go to visit schools in China, you will have an escort choose which schools to see. In the US, you can get a visitor pass from any school, any day of the week. You can visit the affluent, suburbian school and the rundown, ghetto school in the same day, with no special permission. At least the Chinese recognize the injustices as shameful and try to hide them. We, however, are shameless. To discuss a solution is to abandon our illusion. And, hey, somebody's gotta clean the toilets, am I right? Eh?

      Finally, the comment betrays the truth of the education system. It's an economic sorting engine. It's a drawn-out college entrance exam. The truth is, we need factory workers. Why do you think we cram active children into seats in small, almost windowless rooms and drown them in rote, mindless exercises? We could ask why dropout rates are so high. We could ask why there are disparities in grades between economic and cultural groups. We could really question the goals of this machine we've built. We could ask you what you could possibly have against a smarter, more informed populace. But, hey, somebody's gotta wash the dishes, am I right? Eh?

      --
      Paul Grosfield - the quicker picker upper.
    26. Re:Cue the other subjects by ittybad · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm a teacher. Unlike many of my colleagues, and unlike you, I have trouble with the assertion that the most important thing is the parent's attitude. I have had parents who highly believe in the value of education begging me for help with their failing students. Alternatively, I have students who claim their parents do not care (and I believe this to be on many accounts) and yet some of those students do very, very well (I was one of those).

      What it REALLY comes down to, the REALLY important thing, is the motivation of the student. If the student wants to succeed, they will find the way to success (granted there are not too many institutional barriers to break through).

      --
      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
    27. Re:Cue the other subjects by uncqual · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Agreed...

      However, I think it's unfair to specifically single out these groups without including what seems to me to be a "lax" attitude by parents (including college educated parents) in middle-class homes where the kid's great-grandparents (or earlier) lived in the US (having immigrated or having been born in the US). In the public middle-class schools these kids go to, parents complain that poor Jason just doesn't have enough time after school for all his activities and his life is so stressful so the schools should cut back on expectations (including the amount of homework). Or, when their sweet Heather is called out at school for behavior problems, her parents raise a ruckus about how the teacher picks on poor Heather (when I was a kid [get off my lawn] it was assumed it was me who had the problem, not the teacher -- unless a lot of parents were complaining bitterly about one particular teacher).

      Of course, all this has given us public school teachers who are willing to accept this lax attitude and have low achievement expectations -- which results in a vicious cycle.

      From a practical standpoint, the primary source of effective practicing engineers and scientists is going to be middle class households with educated parents -- unfortunately, many of these families are/have raised soft kids who feel entitled to get whatever they want just because "I want it" and don't expect to "work" for it.

      At this point, I fear the US's only hope is the legal immigrants from India and China (in particular, due to their numbers) whose parents actually believe that their childrens' main "job" is getting a good education and don't mind that the kids sometimes feel some stress about it. This is not a terrible thing except that as the US builds up more and more deadwood (all of whom get to vote, but most of whom will pay few taxes due to their limited income producing potential) we cross the tipping point where 5% are paying the other 95% to exist - and the 95% keep trying to get more from the 5% until it all collapses when a few of the 5% say "screw it, I'm not going to work this hard to give most of my earnings to someone else. Don't oppose generous issuance of H1Bs to well educated individuals - we need them to help keep Medicare (and the whole government bubble) propped up for a few more years - we need to keep this Ponzi scheme afloat...

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    28. Re:Cue the other subjects by uncqual · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hear this story over and over -- it's SO sad that the system flushes out teachers who "get it" while leaving the sludge in the teaching pool.

      There are certainly some good teachers that stick it out and I don't blame anyone for bailing out of an untenable situation, but society has got to recognize that education is important, equality should be about opportunity not outcome, working hard is an important component to success, and teachers should be accountable (and not "entitled" to their job just because they have seniority).

      Oh, and and parents have to realize that just because they were clever (or careless) enough to figure out how to spawn, it doesn't mean their children are perfect angels entitled to whatever they want without hard work.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
  5. I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I really do sympathize with Lockhart. But what he's asking for is the perfect math teacher in the perfect math world with kids and their parents being tantalized by mathematics--not captain of the football team or even high achieving speech/band nerd.

    From the blog:

    I defy you to read and find a single sentence that isn't permeated, suffused, soaked, and encrusted with truth.

    Very well, here is an excerpt from the PDF:

    Mathematics is an art, and art should be taught by working artists, or if not, at least by people who appreciate the art form and can recognize it when they see it. It is not necessary that you learn music from a professional composer, but would you want yourself or your child to be taught by someone who doesn't even play an instrument, and has never listened to a piece of music in their lives? Would you accept as an art teacher someone who has never picked up a pencil or stepped foot in a museum? Why is it that we accept math teachers who have never produced an original piece of mathematics, know nothing of the history and philosophy of the subject, nothing about recent developments, nothing in fact beyond what they are expected to present to their unfortunate students? What kind of a teacher is that? How can someone teach something that they themselves don't do? I can't dance, and consequently I would never presume to think that I could teach a dance class (I could try, but it wouldn't be pretty). The difference is I know I can't dance. I don't have anyone telling me I'm good at dancing just because I know a bunch of dance words.

    Now I'm not saying that math teachers need to be professional mathematicians--far from it. But shouldn't they at least understand what mathematics is, be good at it, and enjoy doing it?

    Well if you're not asking for teachers needing to be professional published mathematicians, what was that paragraph about?

    I'm sorry man, you're asking for the perfect math teacher. You know Robin William's character from the movie The Dead Poet's Society? You want a guy like that for math ... everywhere. That art teacher that actually made you think about what 'art' is? Not going to find many of them in the political science department, are you? Of course, for any subject, someone who puts their heart and soul into the subject is the best teacher! In this respect, math is not special.

    The paragraph I quote is not the truth, it's wishing for the impossible. I wish I had a math teacher like this all my life but come on. The public school system is more worried about getting someone that actualy cares about the students at all. They can't even find those people let alone people who care about the students and live/eat/sleep/bleed math.

    I'm right their with you in wishing for this but the expectation is unrealistic. Passions come to people unexpectedly. We should deal with the fact that more people are passionate about topics like Art and Humanities than Math and Computer Science. It's just the reality of academia right now.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by conspirator57 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you don't have to be a PhD. to be interested in and passionate about math. there are some very elegant things in math, and if they are taught to kids in the spirit of a voyage of discovery rather than a trudge along the banks of the river Styx, then there's a chance more kids will catch the bug and like math. And at the rate we're losing engineering capability, particularly in the US, this ought to be a priority.

      --
      "If still these truths be held to be
      Self evident."
      -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    2. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by langelgjm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Passions come to people unexpectedly. We should deal with the fact that more people are passionate about topics like Art and Humanities than Math and Computer Science. It's just the reality of academia right now.

      Isn't his point that we don't really know if that's true, since math isn't taught in a way to inspire passion? That if more people were able to glimpse some of the beauty and creativity in it, there might be more interest in it?

      Well if you're not asking for teachers needing to be professional published mathematicians, what was that paragraph about?

      I agree we can't expect every teacher to be awe-inspiring; even getting (and retaining) enough marginally competent teachers is a challenge. However, you needn't be a university-level mathematics professor to know some of what he's suggested. For example, public school teachers are supposed to have Master's degrees, right? Now, isn't there something funny about the fact that teachers will go and get their BS in the subject they will teach, but get their Master's degree in "education"? Cue the "Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds" quotes. I'd think that teachers might be better served by a decent master's degree in their field of teaching, rather than "education". That would allow them the opportunity to study the history and philosophy of their subject, get a grasp of recent developments (maybe not in all subjects, but they could at least be able to pick up journals), etc. The really good ones could even get published (I just got my Master's degree, and was able to get a paper published, so yes, it's possible).

      --
      "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    3. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by immcintosh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be honest, I thoroughly disagree with you, because I DID HAVE just such a teacher. She wasn't some kind of superwoman either, she was just very competent at math (no advanced degrees, but good enough to teach basic calculus, algebra, and geometry in a way that made pretty much all the students at my school respect her). More importantly, she was passionate about giving students a fundamental understanding of the subject matter. She didn't want to just cross her T's and dot her I's and be done with it, she wanted us to learn what it was all about. She was a hard teacher, but she was almost remarkable in that nearly the entire student body had a great deal of respect for her.

      I think the author's whole POINT was that it's claims like yours--that this is some kind of unreasonable expectation--that are entirely the problem with the situation we have. The simple fact is, it is not unreasonable. My personal experience has shown me that there ARE such teachers out there; mine as well as others I've known.

      My own personal take is that our society simply doesn't give educators the respect they deserve. There's very little motivation for the kind of intelligent, competent, passionate people to go into to lower tiers of the world of education. We pay them peanuts and there's not nearly the kind of appreciation and respect out there for them to want to do those jobs. I happened to go to a private Catholic school, where neither of those things are true, and let me tell you the difference was obvious.

    4. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by EEBaum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The public school system is more worried about getting someone that actualy cares about the students at all.

      Now who's being the idealist? The public school system rarely has such concerns, or they wouldn't do everything possible to scare away the best teachers, and even moderately good ones. Standardized testing, nonsensical state mandates, psychotic district administrators, requirements to use ghastly textbooks, etc. So many headaches are thrust upon our public teachers that have nothing to do with teaching, that it's a wonder anyone sticks with it. I've known people who would have been excellent teachers (including one who was the "perfect" math teacher you speak of) who were scared off by the horrors of the system and ended up pursuing other fields.

      The last thing our system is geared toward is finding good teachers, or ones who care about the students. It's geared toward finding teachers who are willing to put up with all the crap that our public school system shovels their way. Some do it because they love teaching or care about the students and will put up with the suffering. Some do it because the job offers an awesome 3 months off per year. Some do it because they were able to get tenure and love the job security. Some do it because that's the career path they started in and they don't want to make a change.

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    5. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by panthroman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We should deal with the fact that more people are passionate about topics like Art and Humanities than Math and Computer Science. It's just the reality of academia right now.

      Of course it is, because we have these ridiculous stigmas:

      Art is passionate, frivolous, and beautiful.
      Math is boring, uninspiring, and useful.

      What?! There is no such thing as frivolous beauty; no utility is uninspiring and cold. Lockhart, I fear, misses this point. I understand the frustration Lockhart feels at the 'math = boring' stigma, but countering that 'math = art' is just as damning in our obsessed-with-mutual-exclusion society.

      Beauty and utility have long been a happy couple. The false rumors of their divorce is, I think, the root of Lockhart's (and my) frustration.

    6. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by EEBaum · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's no requirement for public school teachers to have masters' degrees. A Bachelor's degree and a credential are all that's required, at least in California.

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    7. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by jandrese · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Honestly, it's the people who are really passionate about math who are the ones that are least capable of teaching it to other people. The ones I've known appreciate the subject matter too much to see it be ruined by a class full of students who couldn't care less just how elegant this theory that you're teaching is. They just want to get through the class and get back to stuff they care about.

      The only way this guy would get the class he wants is to only teach elective courses that aren't pre-reqs for anything. That's the only way to make sure that your students actually care about the subject and aren't taking the class just because they were forced to. In public education this does not exist until sometimes very very late in a child's development (when it's already too late).

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    8. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by serutan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not necessary to put a perfect math teacher in every classroom. Elementary school teachers are perfectly capable of teaching a math curriculum that presents kids with mathematical concepts in game form as Lockhart mentions. Later in their school careers the kids who show interest and aptitude for math could be taught algebra etc, and the rest could stick with the mechanics of arithmetic that will enable them to deal with checkbooks and mortgages. I think our problem today is that we use a one-size-fits-all approach that evolved from the "new math" of the 1960s, which was aimed at teaching kids mathematical concepts instead of practical arithmetic. It was based on the theory that students would see the beauty and wonder of math, and as a result the mechanics would come naturally. That didn't happen, but rather than scrap the whole idea the education system kept the subject matter and devolved the teaching approach. There's a lot of window dressing but basically it's the same kind of rote instruction as before. I think the author's lament is that the system has been trying to teach the beauty of mathematics like a metal shop class.

    9. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by mochan_s · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well if you're not asking for teachers needing to be professional published mathematicians, what was that paragraph about?

      In history, a lot of very prominent mathematicians of their day and age made their living privately teaching high school kids. In modern times, mathematics isn't seen as an important an asset to have to spend that kind of money even if one has it.

      I don't understand why education is seen the way it is in the US. What does the teacher have to do with the quality of education? Does anyone think their teacher helped them become a good programmer. NO. Why do people think their math teachers will make them good mathematicians?

      Anyway, I challenge people to name 10 prominent American mathematicians - please non-mathematicians only and let's take Nash as given. Name the last American mathematician to be featured on a postage stamp. Do the same for musician and see how long that takes.

      My point is that the US doesn't really have a mathematics appreciating society. It reflects in the education as well. And, don't blame the teachers or the administrators for it.

  6. it's really bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 4, Insightful

    High school students are forced to write proofs as part of geometry class. However, they are never taught the rules of logic before being asked to write these proofs. That is just one example of how horribly, horribly stupid the HS math curriculum is in the US.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    1. Re:it's really bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree, but that's not my point. My point is that understanding the formal rules of logic is fundamental to being able to understand proofs. But the bureaucrats who came up with the US math curriculum just said "the kids should learn this and this and this" but never attempted to put those things in the right order so that it was even possible for them to learn all those things.

      It's no wonder kids think they are bad at math or hate the subject--it is presented to them in an impossible form.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    2. Re:it's really bad by the+phantom · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are confusing mathematics with arithmetic. Arithmetic is the manipulation of digits that are used to represent numbers in order to get a result. That is, addition, subtraction, multiplication, etc. In arithmetic, it is important to "show your work" in that it helps an instructor to understand what you have done, and where you might have made mistakes. Arithmetic is a subfield of mathematics, but does not comprise the whole. Mathematics, on the other hand, is the search for a certain kind of "truth." In mathematics, we start with a set of assumptions about how the universe works (we call these axioms), then use logic to work out what those axioms imply. A proof consists of the details of the logical process used to work out new truths.

      You might want to have a look through the articles on Wikipedia about logic, predicate-logic, and mathematical proofs.

  7. The way math is structured is disconnected from... by blahplusplus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... interesting things kids want to do.

    Lets face it a minority of people will like math, but matehmaticians have done a lot to make mathematics overly complicated.

    I struggled with the symbolic format math was presented in highschool because it was so disconnected from the world, only as I got older did I realize how arbitrary and how that was only one way to present mathematics. To really teach math one must learn how to observe first before one even gets into symbolic computation, math at it's most basic is about observing relationships, patterns of : Size, ratio, proportion, etc. It's really a language invented to systematize structure and relationships of the real world, therefore how math is represented and structured and is taught matters a hell of a lot.

    I've learned over the years that many mathematical systems are totally arbitrary are are more obtuse then they need to be, math comes from the simplest observations. Math has built up a lot of cruft and wasteful jargon disconnecting math from the world.

    For instance I had no idea for a long time that the way math is structured could be restructured when I was young and it was one group of peoples perspective on mathematical principles, I came across debates and alernative systems like:

    http://www.symmetryperfect.com/

    And it showed me how arbitrary mathematical systems and their structures really are and they are built to suit particular kinds of minds or cultures.

    For instance the ancient mayans used shapes for numbers, instead of 1, 2, 3

    See here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_numerals

    Math is a very rich subject which unfortunately has a lot of cultish like people who think themselves the gatekeepers of mathematics.

    I've thought about writing a book in my spare time about how badly mathematicians and the academia has blinded themselves to simplifying mathematics by focusing too much on symbolic jargon and not teaching children how 'mathematical' relationships are related to our simplest observations of the world: Size, shape, form, color, motion, etc.

  8. True story .... by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In university, I was taking an intro philosophy course on critical reasoning.

    We had covered the concept of statistical significance. The example we'd used was a case of "0.05" meaning we had 95% confidence in the statistical results. On the exam, the professor made a typo, and the question read "how much certainty with a statistical confidence of 0.5", to which the correct answer is 50%.

    I was marked as wrong, and when I complained, the professor indicated that since we'd never covered that example, and only covered 0.05 in class, it was assumed that was what she meant.

    I informed her for someone teaching critical reasoning, she wasn't demonstrating any. I also insisted I get the credit for giving the actual correct answer (which I and everyone who answered it correctly did).

    If that's indicative of how math is taught nowadays, we're all hosed. :-P

    Cheers

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:True story .... by Gunnut1124 · · Score: 2, Informative

      If that's indicative of how math is taught nowadays, we're all hosed.

      It is. We are.

      --
      America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed. -Eleanor Roosevelt, 1936
  9. Eh. by gbarules2999 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Found it here: http://plato.asu.edu/LockhartsLament.pdf

    The whole idea behind his essay is that he liked playing with numbers and shapes as if it's an art, but he doesn't seem to realize most people don't share this love for math, like pretty much 90% of any student population. This is me speaking as a just-graduated senior: the things he suggests is beyond the ability of most math students in high school.

    1. Re:Eh. by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 2, Informative

      The whole idea behind his essay is that he liked playing with numbers and shapes as if it's an art, but he doesn't seem to realize most people don't share this love for math, like pretty much 90% of any student population. This is me speaking as a just-graduated senior: the things he suggests is beyond the ability of most math students in high school.

      I think you missed the point.
      His point IMO, is what we are teaching as "math" in school is totally useless and should be scrapped completely, because it's not even close to what math is.
      We don't need to teach math to 100% of the students, just as we don't insist that 100% of the students can paint landscapes, or bake brownies.

    2. Re:Eh. by jayme0227 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I read as much of the essay as I could before I realized that the guy doesn't understand that his experience doesn't apply to everyone else. I understand where he's coming from because I tell the worst stories imaginable. I will go on talking about little, highly interesting details, until I realize that I'm the only one who finds them interesting. It took me a long time to realize that, just because I find it interesting, that doesn't mean that other people will.

      To say that mathematics should be taught in the way that he likes the most is silly, at best. Most people will be able to pass through life with a rudimentary, at best, understanding of mathematics. Most jobs in this world do not require 90% of the theorems and principles that people are forced to learn through high school. I agree with the essay 100% on that point.

      The key to math education, though, is not memorizing these principles, but rather learning how to solve problems. If someone can logically plan their way through a calculus problem, almost anything that they have to figure out at their job would be well within reason.

      I never have understood the concept of math as an art, yet I enjoy math. I enjoy solving problems, enough so that I earned my BS in Mathematics, but this guy takes it to a whole new level. If not even all mathematicians think like he does, why does he expect that the general population will?

      --
      But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
    3. Re:Eh. by gbarules2999 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Is it the students who are incapable, or are they merely inexperienced?

      Some people just don't get math, just like some people just don't get music or science or English. Around here, the math one is probably the largest.

      You can ask any teacher. Some students just have a hard limit on their abilities. It's hard to manage these.

      I'd also like to state that we have some pretty damn good teachers in our district, who approach math more like the essay stated. Lots of exploration and discovery. For a lot of students it just doesn't work, whether they're told outright (which the math teachers are inevitably forced to do on a one on one basis) or asked to discover the relationships themselves.

    4. Re:Eh. by chris_eineke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      90% of the student population isn't interested in math because it's taught in the way and by the people he talks about in his text.

      *insert snide comment about reading comprehension here*

      --
      "All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
    5. Re:Eh. by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You overlooked the absolute core of his argument: a lot of high school students think they don't like math because they've been presented with a pale shadow of math for the previous eight years. Of course a high school student couldn't handle what he's describing; all of their previous schooling has emphasized rote memorization, blind pattern matching, and robotic application of rules. He thinks we need to rethink things all the way back to first grade.

      By odd coincidence, I had an english literature teacher in high school who taught english the same way math is frequently taught. You read the book, and during class he lectured on the details of the story, the author's background, and the context of the world in which the story was written. While this might sound interesting, it was presented as a serious facts. Indeed, a few days before a test, he helpfully gave a study session that amounted to listing 100 or so facts from the book and his lectures. You memorized them, then regurgitated 20 or so back on the multiple choice test. It was mindless. It was admittedly very easy, at least if you could memorize a list of 100 or so facts, but it did crap all for my appreciation for literature in the english language. (At the time I liked his class. I found it trivially easy. But looking back on it in hindsight, especially after reading that essay, what a massive waste of time. What a terrible teacher.)

      In english class in high school you can ask students to read a work, then write an essay on the themes. In the process they will have to learn to actually pay attention to what they're reading, to consider it on a level beyond a simple telling of events. Maybe the student will hate reading, writing, or both, but the overwhelming majority can manage to write that essay. The original author argues that the same model can work for mathematics and that the idea that it will be too hard for many students is a false one created a system that already fails.

  10. Hmm by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 4, Funny

    I implore you to read his essay with every atom of my being.

    Well, OK, seeing as I can use *your* atoms.

  11. Oh give it a rest by eln · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Specialists in every field complain that educators get their field wrong or don't stir the passions of kids for their field as much as they ought to. What they fail to understand is that they're coming at the whole problem from the perspective of someone who is obviously gifted at and highly passionate about the field. They don't seem to get that most people don't pick up their field as easily as they do, and don't care enough to put in the effort it would take to get even half as good at it as the specialist.

    Instructors of just about every field at any level of compulsory education (K-12) have to battle against entrenched biases against their fields, and against education in general, that have been fostered for years before the student ever gets in their classroom. Further, their task is to teach the curriculum provided. If they inspire their kids to love the field, that's great, but if they spend so much time inspiring the kids that they don't have enough time to teach the kids what they need to pass the state-required tests, they're still going to lose their jobs.

    Teaching math, science, or anything else is HARD. Teaching it to people who don't care and don't want to be there is even harder. Teaching kids to love the field when the only metric used to judge your performance is pass rates on a standardized test is harder still. It's all well and good for professional mathematicians to bitch and moan about the state of education, but until they're ready to step in with some realistic and implementable ideas that don't presuppose that all kids have some inherent interest in these things that just needs to be tapped into, it's not helpful in the least.

    1. Re:Oh give it a rest by bgalehouse · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Specialists in every field complain that educators get their field wrong or don't stir the passions of kids for their field as much as they ought to. What they fail to understand is that they're coming at the whole problem from the perspective of someone who is obviously gifted at and highly passionate about the field. They don't seem to get that most people don't pick up their field as easily as they do, and don't care enough to put in the effort it would take to get even half as good at it as the specialist.

      Do musicians complain that the typical high school band teachers don't understand the basics of music? This is a specific example from the TFA and it is very well chosen. People don't expect high school band teacher to world class musicians. They do however expect high school band teacher to have a feel for what music is. They expect high school band teacher to know the difference between in tune and out of tune. They expect high school band teachers to drill notation and teach counting different times, but the also expect to be connecting these things to actual music at every step of the way.

      We expect this of high school band teacher because most people know what music is supposed to sound like. Most people have enough sense for how it actually works to recognize somebody who can't play, or who cannot teach how to play.

      Teaching math, science, or anything else is HARD. Teaching it to people who don't care and don't want to be there is even harder. Teaching kids to love the field when the only metric used to judge your performance is pass rates on a standardized test is harder still. It's all well and good for professional mathematicians to bitch and moan about the state of education, but until they're ready to step in with some realistic and implementable ideas that don't presuppose that all kids have some inherent interest in these things that just needs to be tapped into, it's not helpful in the least.

      If you tried to teach a music class based on transcribing notation and chord theory, rather than listening and/or playing you'd find it hard also. Teaching kids to love music using a such a curriculum wouldn't just be hard, it would border on the absurd. Even if a few people did enjoy the raw mindless diligence to do such a thing out of context, there is no particular reason to believe that this would produce great musicians.

      I'd like to add that science education in the US seems to me to be much closer to math education than music education. I remember learning to play lip service to the scientific method, but I don't remember ever being asked to sit down with some lab equipment and figure out what some relationship is. If you are given the equation, and given the experiment to "test" some particular aspect of the equation, you've removed the science, you've removed what is important.

  12. An allegedly true story from a professor by thirty-seven · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While I was in university, a computer science professor in the faculty of mathematics told me (and the rest of the class) a cute and funny story about what happens "when the children of math professors get together". He and a colleague, who each had a young daughter at that time, were walking together in a park with their daughters. The children were old enough to have picked up some math-related words and phrases from their fathers, but young enough to have no idea what they really meant - six or seven years old, maybe? The daughters went off to play and their fathers overheard them arguing about who had seen the most flowers in the park.

    My professor's daughter said, "I saw five flowers!"

    "And I saw... six!", the other girl replied.

    Not to be outdone, my professor's daughter said, "I saw a million flowers."

    "Oh yeah? I saw infinity flowers."

    This, according to my professor, caused his daughter to pause - she had never heard of "infinity" before. How could she top "infinity flowers", especially since she didn't know what it meant?

    But after thinking for a few seconds, she said, "Well, I saw all the flowers."

    --

    Atheism is a religion to the same extent that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

  13. US School System compared to Europes School System by 0x000000 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I myself have gone through the US school system starting at grade 7 (lived in Switzerland and The Netherlands before then), I am currently in uni for a software engineering degree. While I have read only part of the article (the blog post) I wanted to post my experience compared to that of my cousin who went through school in The Netherlands.

    Math at the schools I went to was catered to the lowest common denominator, the slowest person in the class, the person who would just not get it got the most attention and the rest of the class was stuck at that level until that person tagged along and finally got moving. Whereas in Europe and other places they place those students in various levels of math dependent on their skill level so that those that don't need the extra time are able to get to the higher level maths faster. This creates a gap between the math that is considered required at age 18 in the US and The Netherlands. My cousin was going for a degree in hotel management and food preparation (chef). He at the age of 18 had a better understanding of math, and had more knowledge of high level math (Linear Algebra, Calculus and others) than I did when I graduated High School, and the classes he were in were considered the slower less demanding classes since it was not as much of a requirement for the degree he was going to be pursuing.

    This is the same with a lot of the classes though, history, english, and science classes. Especially for English, you don't get to think for yourself anymore, you have to follow exactly what the teacher told you. If the teacher says this is important for this reason, and you attempt to argue it differently in a paper you fail, everyone coming out of high school has been passed through a cookie cutter, there is no innovation left, there is no real thinking for oneself anymore.

    It is sad, and the state the US educational system is currently in will not allow it to compete in the global market, it will not allow it to be innovate and provide new ideas, but what it will provide is people who are like sheep and are more than willing to follow the crowd and just do it because everyone does. These people will be easy to govern and control since they won't ask questions and least of all will they rebel and fight for their beliefs. In other words, the US education system as it currently stands is making zombies.

    --
    cat /dev/null > .signature
  14. Re:tl;dr by Fallingcow · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Bingo, and that's one of the big problems with trying to do anything about the issues the paper raises: there are only so many people with the 1) ability, 2) knowledge, and 3) inclination, to do the kind of real mathematics he's talking about.

    We'd have to re-vamp our teacher training along the lines of what's talked about in the paper to try to increase the number of people who could do it, and hope Lockhart's right about this being an art with universal appeal so that enough of the teacher candidates "get" it. Even if elementary schools began using dedicated math teachers (some already do, but many don't) we'd still need a shitload of people trained in this "math as an art/math as play" style, and we currently have approximately zero in elementary education.

  15. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by DriedClexler · · Score: 5, Informative

    For instance the ancient mayans used shapes for numbers, instead of 1, 2, 3

    Psst! The numerals "1", "2", and "3" are shapes too!

    F***in' indocentrists...

    --
    Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  16. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The United States is being outclassed in math and science education by a host of other nations. Those nations, for the most part, teach the subject in an exceedingly traditional format. Asia, for example, is still really keen on rote learning. The failure of American pupils is probably not due to the way the subject is taught, but rather because they don't feel the pressure to excel like students in other cultures.

  17. You can convince me by idontgno · · Score: 4, Insightful

    that math is better taught as an art than as a pragmatic problem-solving toolset when you can convince me that Pablo Picasso should have been forced to paint the Golden Gate bridge.

    Society needs math as a tool in far greater quantity than math as an art. Socially-funded education serves the greater need of society. QED.

    I survived public school mathematics. I still appreciate the beauty of patterns, especially the relatedness of art, music, and math. (Godel, Escher, and Bach really resonated for me. But that didn't make me a mathematical artist, any more than a musical composer or a woodblock printer.)

    Lockhart's essay is an interesting read, really, but on some level it boils down to "Those unworthy schlubs treating Mathematics as a tool don't deserve it. It belongs to the artists, the dreamers, the purists!"

    It's a pretty common arrogation in the math culture, it seems. I dont' recall sculptors ever being pissed at concrete workers or ironworkers. And I've never heard of any artist painter getting mad at the other kind of painter for not employing good artistic composition principle while painting the side of the barn.

    Seriously. Math is both an art and a tool. The best artists find their art by themselves; they're not turned out by artist factories. School mathematics is to turn out the mathematical equivalent of bridge painters and ironworkers, because society needs those more (in greater quantity).

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    1. Re:You can convince me by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Part of his argument is that by focusing on "math as tool" via "math as rote memorization", you fail even at that. Math at higher levels becomes cryptic symbols that you manipulate according to cryptic rules to make your teacher happy. And a few years out of school you promptly forget the whole thing. If they forget most of it, and for the overwhelming majority it never hurts them to have forgotten it, what was the point in having "taught" it in the first place? He argues that it's such a waste of time that we might simply drop some math courses entirely and we would be better off. (Indeed, I suspect that if you replace your average American's high school senior math courses with Spanish that society on the whole would benefit. They're more likely to make use of the Spanish.)

      The author believes that his proposal will lead to more students discovering that they actually like math, and more students as a whole actually retaining what they learned. While they might learn less, they'll actually retain more in the long run, and be better armed to figure out things for themselves.

  18. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Lord+Ender · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You must have attended a very very small school. Most US schools have different courses based on skill level. Your conclusions about the US school system are therefore wrong. They are merely conclusions about very small schools.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  19. Two mathematicians by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 4, Funny

    Two mathematics professors are having lunch at a restaurant. The first mathematician keeps complaining about how ignorant the typical American is and how he's suprised that the average person in this country has enough mathematical prowess to balance a checkbook.

    The second mathematician says, "Don't you think you're being a little harsh? The average person surely has more mathematical ability than you give them credit for."

    The first mathematician responds, "Absolutely not! I'm sure if you asked the first person you met on the street to solve a basic algebra problem, they would have no idea where to start."

    The second mathematician says, "Okay, I'll make a bet with you. At the end of the meal, I'll ask our waitress to solve a calculus problem. If she can solve it, you pay for lunch. If she can't, I'll pay."

    "Thanks in advance for lunch!" the first mathematician says confidently.

    Later, while the first mathematician is in the bathroom, the second mathematician flags the waitress down and says, "Listen, when you bring us our check I'm going to ask you a math question. I want you to answer, âone-half x-squared.' Can you remember that? If you do, I'll leave an extra big tip." He encourages her to write it down phonetically and practice it so that it seems natural.

    At the end of the meal, after the waitress puts the bill on the table, the second mathematician says, "Oh, could you answer a little question for me? What's the integral of x with respect to x?"

    The waitress looks unsure at first, but says, "One-half x-squared."

    With a grin, the second mathematician slides the bill over to the first mathematician.

    As the waitress is walking away, she turns back and says over her shoulder "plus a constant!"

  20. Half Steps by sampson7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This man is a beautiful dreamer. I don't think his rather Platonic vision of the perfect math class will ever be acheivable. But there are a bunch of half steps that I think would really help math and address his fundamental point that math, as it's currently taught, is boring as all heck and does nothing for the vast majority of us who don't use calculus or even algebra in our day-to-day lives. I mean really, the last time I did anything more than basic algebra was tutoring others! And while learning math so that you can help someone elses' kids study for a test is a fine goal, I'm not sure it's really worth the thousands of hours I spent taking math!

    First, *use* math to solve real problems and explain real scientific principles. Radio Lab (THE official National Public Radio show for geeks everywhere) had a great little episode where some student "discovers" that the periodicity of a pendulum forms a parabola when charted on a graph. Wow! That's heady stuff. (It's the first story of this episode.) Understanding the interaction of science and math -- the universe, really -- is something that we can teach. Integration of math and science gets us part of the way there.

    Second, incorporate the history of math into math class. Math advances all occur because of some historical context. Combining the two is a half-step that will get students to understand "why" we created this math, even if they never quite get the quadratic formula down. Combine these two principles, and it would go a long way.

  21. Re:tl;dr by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't think that it has anything to do with the femaleness of the teachers, as I have also had excellent female math teachers. I think what grandparent is referring to is the fact that elementary education(and to a lesser extent middle school) draws heavily from the "Good with/likes kids" segment(which, among others, includes a lot of mathematically disinclined women) rather than the "strong knowledge of subject x" segment. This substantially abates at the high school level, and is largely absent in college.

  22. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by jimbobborg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I saw the issue the OP stated in all of the K-12 schools I went to. As my father was in the military, I got to go to 3 elementary schools, 1 middle school, and 2 high schools. Some teachers were able to handle students at different reading/math levels in elementary school, but once I hit middle/high school, everything except math was lowest common denominator. In Seventh grade, the English class was using the reader I used in Fifth grade. And people in the class were having a hard time with it! The only way I could get away from the morons was to get into an AP class. Of course, I couldn't get into the AP English classes as my grades were too low in Eighth grade (should have actually done my homework.) Math was something I was good at. I had excellent Math teachers in HS. Sadly, I went to college. By my second quarter, I had enough of the stupid rote memorization of proofs that had to be regurgitated on exams to just stop attending classes. Feh.

  23. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by LordKazan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    so you want to teach math using base-1 ... that's... insane.

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  24. U.S. Public Education by syphax · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Discussing "US Public Education" is about as specific as discussing global weather. Is it cloudy or raining today? The education system is the US is quite federalized- most of the decisions about pretty much anything are made at the state and local levels.

    I, personally, am quite happy with my 1st graders' (twins) math education. They've learned concepts like how to estimate, pattern detection, etc., as well as the rote mechanics of arithmetic. And they get more of it at home ("Here's a cookie. Tomorrow I'll give you twice as many as I did today. How many will you have in a week?"). But I live in a pretty rich suburb outside Boston, where the MIT professors live in the less-affluent neighborhoods.

    We can bitch about the schools all we want, but it's a deeper cultural issues. School teachers get OK pay and benefits, good (though rigidly defined) vacations, and no respect. What kind of profile of person does that attract? In my experience, a real mix of people who are passionate about teaching (often with well-paid spouses) and those that mail it in 'til vacation starts. The balance of those (and other) groups varies widely by district. More than pay, this is really an issue of respect. I can't tell you how many teachers I know who report 'lack of respect for their profession' as the #1 gripe about their job. I wouldn't put up with that (not that I'd make a good teacher).

    --
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  25. More money in death by michaelmalak · · Score: 3, Insightful
    For the mathematically inclined, salaries are 4x as much for building the next bomb or trading the next CDS than there is in teaching. This is due to the government monopoly on education and the high barrier of entry to those who would challenge that monopoly.

    I have to comply with 300 pages of regulations for the school I started in Denver. The cost of compliance is at least half the total budget.

    Although this article did not touch once upon the issue of wages, it is a very good article -- perhaps the best I've read all year on the subject of education. The need to introduce mathematical intuition at a young age is something the Montessori Method has done for a century. In a Montessori school, the child progresses from concrete to abstract, working first -- from very young at two years old -- with physical objects that embody length, area, or volume, and only later attaching the abstract symbols we call numbers. The physical manipulation leads to visualization of how addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and fractions work. A child who goes through all three years of "Primary", which is age 3 to age 6, by the end of it, the child will be multiplying and dividing, and have worked with manipulative materials that demonstrate fractions and even binomials and trinomials from algebra.

    In the face of competition from government schools, it is a challenge. I have learned that the competition isn't so much for students as it is for teachers. By using tax dollars, they can pay so much more, offer more benefits, and provide stability stemming from a legally-guaranteed funding sources. Meanwhile, the government schools are there for the purpose of creating cannon fodder, with its flag worship every morning and the forced admission of military recruiters under No Child Left Behind for as early as third grade. And when they do grab a hold of an effective pedagogy like Montessori, they pervert it by adding standardized testing and segregating by ages (e.g. two-year age groups rather than the three-year age groups prescribed by Montessori).

    By eliminating public education, and by reducing the morass of regulations for running a private school, the free market could decide how important math education really is, rather than hearing hot air about it from public officials and CEOs, or by listening to earnest mathematicians such as Paul Lockhart, the author of this white paper, attempt to influence curriculum, presumably in government schools. The century-long battle between phonetics and "whole word" in the area of language (and the resulting reading levels no matter what is done) should be evidence enough of the futility of this approach (to use an anlogy, which Lockhart seems to love).

  26. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Huh? Getting into college isn't an extremely pressing/taxing/competitive ordeal?

    No. There's always some college that will take you, even if you got average grades (and below average, people probably aren't interested in college anyway). Sure, you might not get a scholarship and have to take out burdensome student loans, but when American culture now emphasizes that a college degree is for everyone, and universities are businesses after your money, it's a buyer's market.

  27. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by 0racle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They teach you how to count in kindergarten, they even show you with blocks what 1 means, what 2 is and what not.

    What your holding as a genius way to do things is no different then Roman numerals. It gets extremely unwieldily for anything other then simple addition and subtraction or basic counting, and they aren't any less arbitrary in their symbolism then Arabic numerals are.

    --
    "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
  28. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by geobeck · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You start by having someone like the gentleman who wrote that paper create a new textbook and teachers' manual to go along with it (or, really, a 'series' of textbooks that go through the different grades) that implements the different way of teaching mathematics which he is espousing. It then dies in state and local education department when there is resistance from comittees on doing things differently than they've been done before, and anyhow there is no funding for new textbooks anyhow.

    And you get around the economic obstacles by subverting the system: Crowdsource the textbook to a group of interested mathematicians. Publish it online for free, with printed copies available for a price far below what a crooked textbook publisher would charge. Add value by posting demonstrations by mathematicians, math historians, and math professors on YouTube, linked to the relevant chapter of this comprehensive, global mathematics resource.

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  29. Re:tl;dr by gbarules2999 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bingo, and that's one of the big problems with trying to do anything about the issues the paper raises: there are only so many people with the 1) ability, 2) knowledge, and 3) inclination, to do the kind of real mathematics he's talking about.

    And not just the teacher training. This goes beyond what some students are capable of and can handle. What happens to them if they can't function inside a creative mathematical atmosphere?

  30. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Dude, now you're approaching xenophobia. Have you looked at the state of mathematics in American universities? A conspicuous amount of highly original researchers are the product of foreign educational systems. They aren't doomed to being tech support monkeys like you insinuate."

    I don't know how the heck you got that out of my statement. I'm not saying these people are not smart, I'm not saying they are not mathematical prodigies, but they have all learned math in a particular way, many mathematicians don't even realize it because their mind is *naturally suited* to the symbolic form in which the were taught.

    Drilling kids with a structure of math when they have no idea how to relate it to their own natural knowledge limits their ability to understand what 'math' is. Most people have never really looked into what mathematics is, where it comes from, how it is derived. I've got books I and articles I've slogged through doing my own research in my spare time and I've realized how disconnected and arbitrary how math is structured in our society really is, and I'm not discounting these peoples contributions to society.

    I'm telling you math is much more rich then what most people have even begun to think about*, yes even the PHD's.

    I'm talking about how mathematics is *structured* how it is represented.

    I remember taking "gifted" tests in school that structured mathematical principles using colored shapes/empty shapes for patterns and principles.

    Kids need a way to *connect* what they see as meaningless symbols and see they are *derived* from observations in the world, mathematics *began* as a way for someone to take their observations and format them in a systematic way, but there are many ways to do this and the way something is presented matters A LOT.

    I wish I could find the article at about how someone built a physical model as a metaphor of mathematical principles that explained the principles better then the equations and graphics they had made.

    Either way there are better ways to communicate mathematical principles and ideas then has been traditionally been taught in societies institutions because I have spent a heck of a lot of time researching this on my own time. As expected on slashdot I would meet a lot of resistance for people who are without my lifetime of experiences that I have yet to congeal into a work of origina lresearch.

  31. A teachers take by fishthegeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am a teacher, albeit not a a math teacher but teaching in general has a lot of problems in the U.S. The largest problem that I see in America is that we have a system of education that is largely based on talent. We recognize it, reward it, and care for it like a price flower. Effort on the other hand is culturally unappreciated and that cultural attitude is reflected in education. The talented students have the opportunity to shine, and they always have.

    Would our culture demand effort from our students instead of recognizing talent we'd be much further along.

    I'm not suggesting that talent should go un-nurtured but, at least from an educators point of view, the effort of the students should be the focus of rewards.

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    load "$",8,1
  32. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by jandrese · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As a CS student I had to take a lot of math. One thing that always struck me is that a lot of math is a lot like programming (this is not a coincidence) except that you're only allowed to use single letter (greek!) variable and function names.

    A lot of math reads like extremely bad Perl programs too, with tons of functionality on every line and no documentation except for a giant paragraph at the top written by someone who is apparently from Mars.

    On the other hand, a lot of math is just pattern recognition. Realizing when you need to use one transform over another is a fundamental part of mathematics. Maybe the language simplifies this task somehow? I'm not sure. It always seemed to obscure it more than anything else to me.

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    I read the internet for the articles.
  33. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  34. There are _lots_ of people by igomaniac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... with the ability, knowledge and inclination. The real problem is that they can all make twice or more money by doing some other line of work. This is a matter of paying what is necessary to compete with the other possibilities open to mathematically able, knowledgeable and inclined people.

    --

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  35. Depends on what you mean by fundamentalists by weston · · Score: 2, Informative

    and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*fundamentalists*cough*) waging a 30 year war on public education

    Depends on what you mean by fundamentalists. Honestly, I have my doubts you can trace all our problems back to creationists and prudes. You'd have to get the market fundamentalists, the "one curriculum to bind them all" fundamentalists, the Fabians, the Rothschilds, the Rockafellers, and probably more in there to get a really good idea of why we've ended up so mixed up.

    That said: I got a fantastic high school education. I learned quite a bit and could have gotten a lot more out of it if I'd had the inclination.

  36. Re:School Choice is part of the answer by LordKazan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1) Yes NCLB is an excuse to close down public schools - it was designed as such, and they intentionally fabricated a study [exposed as a fraud 2 years later] to get congressional support

    2) Defunding them further with vouchers (most of which would be going to religious indoctrination centers that masquarade as schools) is not a solution

    3) "Failing schools based on geopgrahy" is a problem with two things
          a) How we fund schools [how about pool money state wide and dole out as needed instead of tying funding to their service areas land values.. that kidn of funding arraignment was obviously designed to serve only the rich neighbors]
          b) home lives in disadvantaged areas are more often than not are harmful to getting an education.

    The NEA would CORRECTLY resist #2. They would support repleaing NCLB and getting all schools funded better.

    Vouchers are not a solution, they're just a furtherance of stripping funding from public schools so that they fail.

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  37. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by lithis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you read the Wikipedia article on Maya numerals, linked to above, you will see that it is not like Roman numerals. It is, in fact, a base-twenty positional system that happens to have logical symbols for its digits (zero notwithstanding).

  38. Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathematics by reporter · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The mathematics education in K-12 in the USA typically includes the following sequence.

    0. arithmetic

    1. algebra I

    2. geometry

    3. algebra II

    4. trigonometry

    5. elementary analysis (includes some probability and statistics)

    6. calculus

    The above mathematics sequence is typically plug-and-chug: plug some numbers into some formulas and produce a result. No thinking is required.

    What is sorely needed is a course in discrete mathematics between geometry and algebra II. Discrete mathematics teaches the most fundamental mathematical concept: methods of reasoning about mathematics. Not surprisingly, discrete mathematics includes plenty of proofs.

    Discrete mathematics is not only a foundation of math but is a foundation of computer science. All the important ideas in data structures and finite automata require an understanding of discrete mathematics.

  39. Speaking of hot mathematicians by geekoid · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.danicamckellar.com/

    I can't believe Summer Glau is the chick geeks are hot after. Danica is Hot, has her name on a physic theorem, mathematician, and has written math books for girls.
    Her acting career is full of geek as well.

    Not to say either one of them is a geek, just that I scratch my head over why geeks prefer Summer.

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  40. Mathematician, Taught Public HS for 5 Years by Hnice · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Though I don't need the rhetoric, this hits it on the head, in every aspect.

    I'd like to try teaching math like English -- Math 1, Math 2, Math 3, Math 4, with curriculum determined in part by such apparently meaningless factors as what might be useful in other classes or what's happening, you know, outside of my room.

    The textbook comments are particularly right on -- step 1, burn them. If teachers complain that they won't know what to teach, fire them on the spot.

    Geometry is also a lousy place for proof. Teach deduction all the time, in every topic -- and in classrooms other than math. "Here's a bunch of fake stuff you don't know anything about that's hard to draw. Now let's think really abstractly about how we're thinking about it!" And induction doesn't get taught at all.

    The practical deal-killer, the one that drove me out of the profession, is that the barrel full of math teachers is so close to empty that you're pretty much scraping bottom from day 1. This kind of instruction -- and this kind of critique -- can only originate with someone who likes math, and is sort of good at it. You'd be amazed (or maybe you wouldn't) at how few public high school math teachers this describes.

    America has gotten the math teaching instruction it asked for when it decided to prop up bad teachers with lousy but easy-to-use texts, and to boot it got the benefit of not having to pay very well for people willing to go through these motions. (It's not about money, but really, it's a little bit about money. I doubled my salary when I left last year.) It's a big, huge problem, and since you're going to have to convince parents that it needs the kind of dramatic overhaul this (great) article describes, and since parents were largely victimized by the existing system, I'm pretty sure it's a losing battle.

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    god is just pretend.

  41. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by bADlOGIN · · Score: 2, Informative

    You must have attended a private or EXTREMELY large school. Most US schools are nowhere near the described Netherlands system. At best, you've got three tracks - "honors" which targets the cookie-cutter wrote memory college tracked kids, standard for those who aren't fighting or don't care about math scores WRT university applications, and "essentials" for poor suffering masses who are not picking up or don't care to do the work. This is the situation in Washington State, Kent School district which is the 4th largest district in a High School with over 2600 students. Even this delineation of "skill" is still cranked through the un-inspired compulsory process Lockhart complains about. If you want to know why, check out John Taylor Gatto's "The Underground History of American Education" (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/).

    Saying knowledge comes from a schooling about as correct as saying milk comes from a store. When you understand in both cases it's just simple packaging and processing, you can start asking questions about what it is, why it is, and how you can get it on your own, and how to evaluate the quality of the sources you get it from.

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  42. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by exploder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wow, you didn't read the paper very closely if you think he could produce a textbook (or a series) to implement what he's advocating.

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  43. Re:Typical Slashdot... by Omestes · · Score: 2, Funny

    But he got to base 2...

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    A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  44. Re:Wrong tool for the job by thrawn_aj · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I strongly disagree with the Adlerian precept. It is especially dangerous in science because knowledge is continually being added to the subject and long-hidden connections are continually being discovered. As a VERY relevant analogy, take complex analysis (square root of -1 and all that follows therefrom :P). If you read any books from the childhood days of this subject, they will seem incredibly complicated.

    While I appreciate where you're going with your statement: "the way the discoverer came to understand a principle is often more important to grasp than the principle itself", the hope that this will be clear by reading an original work is just too much to ask for. Science historians labor for years to try to grasp some of those original thought processes. I personally find it much more fruitful to read these histories or a good modern textbook with a historical bent (An imaginary tale and Dr. Euler's fabulous formula - while not textbooks - are excellent examples of this species) to obtain some understanding of how the scientist actually thought of doing this. It just doesn't seem like a good use of one's time to wade through obsolete jargon and obscure (and nearly always annoying) notation just for that one spark of inspiring genius, which can be found readily in modern treatments because modern authors usually worship these ancient masters and provide these little gems at no extra cost :). While this may seem a bit unromantic of me, I simply believe that the content and readability of scientific books is way more important than anything else.

    Early notation is almost always ridiculous complicated (when you look at it in hindsight). Take the idea of vector notation that people use as a matter of course in nursery school math. It is remarkably elegant - especially the ideas of dot and cross products and the determinant form for the latter. Look at any old textbook on the subject and you'll get arcane and obfuscatory animals like dyads and triads. Tensor notation (relatively recent) revolutionized the way this subject (and it is used almost everywhere in physics, engineering, hell - even computer graphics, so it is VERY important as a practical matter).

    Brilliant (often crazy) people give birth to a new subject - one feels only awe when one considers these people. Wiser people then consolidate the subject over the next N years until it hold together beautifully. Even wiser people then continue to find deeper connections between this new subject and others that have lain around for a while.

    In fact, in physics, the only book from the horse's mouth (so to say) that I actually found halfway understandable was Dirac's treatment of Quantum Mechanics. Even so, more modern books (Sakurai for grads or Griffiths for undergrads) is entirely more clear because by then any redundancies and clumsy notations been polished away, things feel right because they are consistent notationally with the rest of physics. I cannot over-emphasize the importance of consistent, clean and meaningful notation in trying to convey scientific knowledge successfully. The Humanities can be wishy washy in this regard but science can never afford the loss the clarity that ensues.

    Another example: for a graduate level introduction to General Relativity, one might try to read Einstein's original paper - historically significant no doubt. A better way would be to read the fearsome Landau for field theories (not bad at all but not easy) or Wald (1984) - even better and getting more modern in terms of things we know. Or one might do the wise thing and go straight for Sean Carroll (2003!) for what might the MOST lucid treatment of GR ever written. I have great respect for a man who spends time clarifying (and thereby making laughably simple) the ferocious tensor notation of GR. Indeed, it is so clear, that I wished it had come out before I graduated with my B.S. (coincidentally in 2003 :P).

    Do you see a pattern here? I do no

  45. Re:Typical Slashdot... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Because all your *other* base are belong to US!

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    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  46. This is now a book by lee1 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I didn't see in the comments, and the story submitter doesn't mention, that this essay, which is from 2002, has blossomed recently (April, 2009) into a book.