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Atari Sub-Sub-Contractor Used ScummVM For Wii Game

MBCook writes "In several recent releases, it seems that Atari published games for the Wii based on ScummVM, which was released under the GPL. Atari contracted Majesco, who contracted a company named Mistic Software with offices in the Ukraine. When the fact that the GPL was being violated was brought to Atari's attention, they were kind at first until it was discovered that Nintendo doesn't allow open source software to be used with the Wii SDK, so updated documentation mentioning the GPL wasn't an available solution. So, what happens to the games? 'There is a period of time in which all current copies have to be sold. Any copies beyond this period or any reprints get fined with quite high fine for each new/remaining copy. The remaining stock has to be destoryed [sic].' Atari and Majesco seem to have been very cooperative about this whole thing, but had their hands tied by the agreement with Nintendo."

50 of 313 comments (clear)

  1. Wow by Jaysyn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nintendo literally hates open source. Guess I'll skip that DSi.

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:Wow by julesh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nintendo wants to prevent leakage of information about the Wii hardware that people can use to hack the machine. Of course, the Wii has already been throughly hacked and so it's just corporate doublethink to pretend it hasn't.

      No, what they want to prevent is more serious than information about hardware. You see, to make code run, you need a signing key. They'll be required to distribute this with the source code under the GPL, because otherwise you can't compile new software.

    2. Re:Wow by AndrewNeo · · Score: 4, Informative

      What? You don't sign at compile-time, you sign the package after.

    3. Re:Wow by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 2, Funny

      INCONCEIVABLE

    4. Re:Wow by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Words posted on slashdot to not pay the bills. Nintendo is obviously concerned about the viral nature of GPL'ed code.

      Far as I know, the GPL can't be applied retroactively to the external platform the application is built on. It ain't that viral ;)

    5. Re:Wow by shentino · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even end user monkeys that don't do squat for development are contributing just the same.

      Ever heard of beta testing? Bug reports? Performance reviews?

    6. Re:Wow by h4rm0ny · · Score: 2, Interesting


      Could Atari not avoid this whole mess by negotiating a separate non-GPL licence with the developers of scumVM. I don't know how many contributors to the code base there have been but there are normally a smallish number of main developers. It might not be feasible to make a paying contract with all the people, but these people are usually pretty reasonable. If Atari were to offer to make a contribution to a FOSS cause such as the EFF in exchange for a one time non-GPL licence for the games they've already done, then probably the developers would sign something to help Atari out. After all, most OS developers quite like to see their work being used all other issues aside. If there are any odd contributors of the odd line here or there that can't be traced / don't respond, then small parts of the code base can be coded around quite easily perhaps.

      It seems the obvious solution, anyway.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    7. Re:Wow by _KiTA_ · · Score: 2, Funny

      What? You don't sign at compile-time, you sign the package after.

      Sssh! Don't go letting logic get in the way of perfectly good FUD.

    8. Re:Wow by mhall119 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The platform, no but it could expose any libraries provided by Nintendo as part of the SDK which are statically linked against the GPL'ed code even though Nintendo was not the party violating the GPL.

      As Nintendo owns the copyright on the SDK, only they can re-license it, not Atari. The GPL is quite specific, if Atari cannot distribute their code in compliance with both Nintendo's SDK license, and the GPL, then they cannot distribute their code at all. It doesn't force the Nintendo SDK into being GPL.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    9. Re:Wow by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 5, Informative

      nope

      # Atari could not "buy out" ScummVM from us
      # There is no possibility to double license ScummVM, at least SCUMM engine
      # We do not need any money as a "bribe to keep silent"

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
  2. I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Companies do have to be careful how they use GPL code, sure. But the real lesson here is that companies have to be much more careful about who their subcontractors are!

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
    1. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by DavidTC · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This does not, in any way, demonstrate that companies need to be careful of how they use GPL code. They do need to be careful of how they use GPL code, but this doesn't demonstrate it at all.

      This entire thing would be fine if it wasn't for Nintendo's rules about what can be used on their devices. Atari would just have to make the modifications to ScummVM available somewhere, which it sounds like it was perfectly willing to do until someone realized that OSS violates the agreement with Nintendo, period.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    2. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Atari would just have to make the modifications to ScummVM available somewhere

      s/would have have to/do/

      Cessation is not a remedy. The deed is done. Let's see the source.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    3. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by cheapbastard · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Despite what supporters of OSS believe Should or Should Not be allowed or done, Nintendo still has the right to decide what software is acceptable for use on their hardware.

      The issue or lesson here is that companies have to be more diligent when fulfilling their contractual obligations. I Atari feels that it does not have to check on its suppliers, then the short coming lies with Atari, not Nintendo.

    4. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by DavidTC · · Score: 4, Informative

      Apparently, once it was realized that Atari couldn't legally distribute the game under any circumstances (Because they can't just give the source away, it has to compilable, and it can't be without the SDK, which they obviously can't give away.), Atari's lawyers then went crazy and decided to threaten ScummVM with a lawsuit for reverse engineering...something.

      What, exactly, I don't know, as I don't know what stuff Atari owns that ScummVM reverse engineered.

      But threaten they did, at least to the point that ScummVM gave up on the 'distribute the source' and said 'As long as you stop shipping the game, it's fine, we will not sue'.

      Legally, it seems unclear if Atari could actually get the source, as the code went through at least two subcontractors, in three different countries. And going to court to get a port to the DS that required the Nintendo SDK (Rendering it illegal to actually distribute binaries of, and impossible to have people compile themselves) seemed of dubious value anyway. So any suit forcing Atari to release the code would be sorta silly anyway.

      Anyway, I wasn't trying to make Atari out to be angels, I was simply pointing out that, if not for Nintendo's rules about their SDK, Atari would be fine with just releasing the game OSS. (I mean, it's not as if you can play it without the copyrighted data files, which would not be under the GPL.) Once they realized they couldn't do that, the lawyers said 'Oh, crap, we can't make this legal with both ScummVM and Nintendo, and hence we're legally liable either way. So we're going to have to threaten to countersue one of those guys to make them preemptively drop a suit against us.'.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    5. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The GPL has a specific exemption for libraries that are part of the operating system. This is why GPL'd code is allowed to link against things like the win32 dlls on Windows.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by DavidTC · · Score: 5, Informative

      First of all, ScummVM doesn't make any rules about what platforms can run 'their games', for the simply fact that ScummVM does not, in fact, own any games.

      All games that ScummVM runs are owned by someone else, and if you want to run them a platform not currently supported by ScummVM, feel free to figure out how do that. Either by porting ScummVM and following the licensing, or writing your own interpreter, or buying one. (There is a DS interpreter for LucasArt games from LucasArt.)

      And don't forget to license the game itself from the owner if you wish to sell it, which you have to do regardless of whether or not you're using ScummVM.

      Secondly, ScummVM has no rules at all about what platforms it can run on. It has rules against what software it can be linked against, and how it can be compiled, and what you have to do after you distribute it. But absolutely no rules about what platform it runs on.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    7. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, you don't get, just how twisted those lawyers' minds are:

      They thought, if their code can't be a illegal copy of ScummVM, then ScrummVM must be the illegal ones.
      So they started, just like children, to say "No you are stupid and have stolen it from me!".
      They seriously think they can act as if ScummVM reverse-engineered "their" oh-so-precious game so that Nintendo does not realize they broke a license with them too!
      And they think that, because they are a big company, they can get trough with it.

      Obviously they are stuck between a rock, and a hard place, and pretty much fucked either way. Essentially all because of Nintendo and that small sub-sub-contractor.
      If I were Nintendo, I would lift the ban for open source games, and profit from it. But those managers have to much exaggerated egos, and think changing their minds would look weak. (When in fact, being so stiff, does make them look weak and stupid.)
      If I were the EFF, I would sure Atari, and instantly call them up, and tell them, that this is not directed at them, but meant to be redirected to the real sourceos of this (The sub-sub-contractor and Nintendo.)
      If I were Atari, I would then sue the sub-sub-contractor, to pay damages to the EFF, the ScummVM team, etc, and be out of it.
      Then the EFF should lobby a bit at Nintendo, to show them, how much they can actually profit from allowing open source software on their console. (Explain to them how essential a community is for a game and a console, and quote right out of Jesse Schell's (chairman of the international game developers association) book, chapter 22.)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    8. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by DavidTC · · Score: 3, Insightful

      An SDK on another platform does not count as 'libraries that are part of the operating system', as far as I can tell.

      And I don't think the DS SDK works like you'd expect a normal compiler to work...I believe it builds a single binary executable that is the entire OS and game. So the 'operating system' essentially doesn't exist independent of the binary, or, to rephrase, there is no OS. There's a compiled function to, say, draw a pixel on the screen, and a header for that, and if your DS program uses that, it is included in the final binary.

      What's more, I think you're wrong. GPL programs can link to Windows DLLs because Windows DLLs do not have restrictive licensing on them. They're commercial, yes, but they have no restrictions on who can link to them, as long as you own a legal copy of them. (Which you got with Windows.)

      DS libraries, being part of and included with the SDK, also have the same restrictive licensing as the SDK.

      That said, obviously this wouldn't force Nintendo to do anything. It would simply make the distribution of said binaries illegal.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    9. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The license to the MS code (basically only the various library code) you get with Visual Studio is one that you can use it anywhere, I believe. Something like BSD code. If you link into MS's libraries you don't need the source, so there's no GPL problem there. An SDK like that for the Wii DOES need the source, though. And if you can't distribute that source, you can't use it with GPL software.

    10. Re:I hope the wrong lesson isn't drawn... by bennomatic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's true in so many cases. I friend of mine runs a clothing company which prides itself on being a good corporate citizen. They have good working conditions, wages and benefits for their employees.

      Occasionally, they need to subcontract, and once, several years ago, one of their subcontractors subcontracted out to another company without due diligence, and this sub-sub-contractor did some Very Bad Things. They hired undocumented workers. They did not pay a fair wage. They closed up shop after the job was done and did not pay anyone for their last couple of weeks of work.

      This sub-sub was terrible, in that they had apparently done the same thing several times, under different names. The owner--or at least the guy who walked away with the most money, who did not claim ownership of any of the versions of this company he had opened and folded--was very well versed in hiding his assets and covering his connection to the illegal activities.

      Because the original client (my friend's company) did not do their due diligence, and did not specifically include verification steps in the subcontractor's contract, they were held equally responsible, and had to share in not only the payment of back wages, but also several hundred thousand dollars in punitive fees.

      Of course, because the responsible party was a friend of mine, I feel this was a pity, but given how common the Reagan defense is, it was probably the right thing to do.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
  3. It's only copyright by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Based on what people posted for the Jammie Thomas $1.92 million settlement article, opinions will likely be divided into these different viewpoints:

    1. Atari should pay 3x the retail cost of the GPL code. 3 x $0 = $0
    2. It's only copyright which should be abolished anyways, no harm no foul
    3. Code wants to be free, man... why is the GPL holding it back?

    What's more likely is this response: OMG! GPL was violated! String Atari up by their balls!!11!!1! The GPL is sacred and must not be blasphemed like this. Grab your torches and pitchforks... we're going on a witch hunt!

    1. Re:It's only copyright by aristotle-dude · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's more likely is this response: OMG! GPL was violated! String Atari up by their balls!!11!!1! The GPL is sacred and must not be blasphemed like this. Grab your torches and pitchforks... we're going on a witch hunt!

      What's even more ironic is that those very same people probably have no qualms violating the copyright of Apple, MSFT, members of the RIAA or the MPAA. That is hypocrisy at its finest.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    2. Re:It's only copyright by julesh · · Score: 2, Informative

      Based on what people posted for the Jammie Thomas $1.92 million settlement article, opinions will likely be divided into these different viewpoints:

      1. Atari should pay 3x the retail cost of the GPL code. 3 x $0 = $0

      Actually, the retail cost of GPL code is "you give us your source code changes back, including a way of building the software and making it run". I think the ScummVM authors would be more than happy with just 1x this.

      2. It's only copyright which should be abolished anyways, no harm no foul

      This is a fringe opinion on slashdot, held by maybe 1% of users. A lot of us would argue for shorter copyright terms, but few for an absolute abolition.

      3. Code wants to be free, man... why is the GPL holding it back?

      The code that isn't free is the modified version of ScummVM that runs on the Wii. A lot of would like to have a hold of that, for many reasons. We really want it to be free.

    3. Re:It's only copyright by abigor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd like to hear your opinion on it. What is the crucial difference that makes one form of copyright violation okay, and the other not okay? Is it simply the word "profit"?

    4. Re:It's only copyright by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, the retail cost of GPL code is "you give us your source code changes back, including a way of building the software and making it run".

      No it isn't. The GPL contains absolutely no requirement that you give any changes back. The only requirements relate to forward distribution. If you make changes and distribute those changes, then you have to give the code and accompanying rights to whoever receives the binary. You do not have to give them back to the original author, and neither does anyone else.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:It's only copyright by i.r.id10t · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Releasing the compile or whatever to run the code isn't required - it is just the code that is required.

      Otherwise I could buy a license for Redhat or Novell for zOS (or use Debian's port to the s390, etc) and "they" (RH, Novell, Debian) would need to give me an IBM mainframe since that is the only way I could run the code?

      So where's my free mainframe?

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    6. Re:It's only copyright by Tetsujin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's more likely is this response: OMG! GPL was violated! String Atari up by their balls!!11!!1! The GPL is sacred and must not be blasphemed like this. Grab your torches and pitchforks... we're going on a witch hunt!

      What's even more ironic is that those very same people probably have no qualms violating the copyright of Apple, MSFT, members of the RIAA or the MPAA. That is hypocrisy at its finest.

      I don't know who these hypothetical people are, who you're talking about... It seems that when you're talking about imaginary people you can apply whatever level of hypocrisy to their opinions that you like - in reality, I suspect you're seeing different groups of people who post on Slashdot and assuming they all hold the same set of opinions... More "groupthink" bullshit...

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  4. If you want ScummVMs take on this by dmomo · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here you go:
    http://sev-notes.blogspot.com/2009/06/gpl-scummvm-and-violations.html

    From The blog Post:

      The finals

    Thus, the facts were:
            * There is a GPL violation (their denial has to be proven in a court, strings in executables and the bug above clearly show it)
            * Atari could not release source codes because of Nintendo NDA
            * Atari could not put GPL clause because of Nintendo NDA
            * Atari could not "buy out" ScummVM from us
            * There is no possibility to double license ScummVM, at least SCUMM engine
            * We do not need any money as a "bribe to keep silent"

  5. I'm sure I'm not alone... by Sj0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm certain I'm not alone when I say "Way to go, nintendo".

    I know why they did it, there has been a constant worry from closed-source developers that the GPL would force closed source code open. Nintendo is just covering their ass.

    Of course, Majesco made Psychonaughts, so the idea of booting their content off of a console for any reason sounds like a suicidal path.

    --
    It's been a long time.
    1. Re:I'm sure I'm not alone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course, Majesco made Psychonaughts, so the idea of booting their content off of a console for any reason sounds like a suicidal path.

      DoubleFine made Psychonauts. Majesco was merely the publisher.

  6. Nintendo's provision is not unusual by bzzfzz · · Score: 4, Informative

    Provisions prohibiting open source software are not unusual in development and distribution agreements for closed systems. There are similar provisions for all gaming platforms, for example, and for signed drivers for Windows. On the other hand, paid licenses for third-party libraries are fine as long as there is no requirement to release source code.

    Something to think about if you believe the playing field is level.

    1. Re:Nintendo's provision is not unusual by Spatial · · Score: 2

      What's the reasoning behind disallowing it? I don't understand.

      The platform is closed and Nintendo control the approval process, what's the downside for them?

    2. Re:Nintendo's provision is not unusual by bzzfzz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's the reasoning behind disallowing it? I don't understand.

      The platform is closed and Nintendo control the approval process, what's the downside for them?

      Their attorneys think about the GPL and the FSF the same way slashdotters think about ASCAP and the RIAA.

    3. Re:Nintendo's provision is not unusual by acoster · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sony allows Linux to run on the PS3 to allow it to be taxed as a computer, not as a video game.

      --
      "Go forth, and be excellent to each other" --Bill & Ted
  7. Stable door status: open. by julesh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Horse status: bolted.
    Would you like me to close the stable door?

    (Obviously, the reason for nintendo refusing to distribute open source software on their platform is that it may also _requires_ them to distribute a toolchain for the platform, including signing keys etc as required to get code to run. Anyone who has already purchased one of these games, or who receives a copy from someone who has, has the right to demand this now.)

    1. Re:Stable door status: open. by Sj0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since when?

      I've never seen anything even remotely close to such a thing.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    2. Re:Stable door status: open. by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They can demand it, but is an unknowing party subject to the license or simply required to cease distribution when informed? It would be difficult to legally force Nintendo to provide anything in this circumstance...

    3. Re:Stable door status: open. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They can demand it, but is an unknowing party subject to the license or simply required to cease distribution when informed? It would be difficult to legally force Nintendo to provide anything in this circumstance...

      Even assuming that any of Nintendo's code would be involved (it's not obvious to me that this would be the case), you couldn't force them to do anything. If they don't comply with the terms of the GPL, then they are not licensed under the GPL, ergo they are guilty of copyright violations. It'd be their choice to comply with the GPL or accept the penalties for copyright violation, which would include having to cease distribution. You can't force a company to comply with a license agreement they never agreed to, you can only punish them for not having a license to begin with.

      So yeah, you're right.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:Stable door status: open. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      This is only true of the GPLv3. There are a large number of other Free and Open Source Software licenses which do not make this requirement. The GPLv2, for example, does not. This is generally known as the Tivo loophole, since they were among the first to notice it. A Tivo includes the Linux kernel, and they comply with the GPL by releasing all of their modifications, but their bootloader will only run signed kernels.

      There is no reason for Nintendo to ban any open source licenses. Third party developers are not able to use GPLv3 code because they are not allowed to distribute the signing key and so can't comply with the GPLv3 irrespective of whether Nintendo explicitly forbids them. Other licenses have no such problems.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  8. Re:GPL Grey Area by Jailbrekr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Uhm,

    The SCUMM interpretor is the problem, not the data it is reading.

    --
    Feed the need: Digitaladdiction.net
  9. Re:GPL Grey Area by MBCook · · Score: 4, Informative

    The problem, from my readings of the story and associated stuff, seems to be that ScummVM was ported to the Wii (or at least to the official Nintendo APIs), but didn't release the changes. That's probably a GPL violation.

    The really big issue from the initial complaint was not that ScummVM was being used (they seem rather happy about that), but that it was used without credit or attribution. That's a clear GPL violation.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  10. No problem! by smitty97 · · Score: 4, Funny
    --
    mod me funny
  11. ScummVM is not to blame by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ScummVM released their software under the GPL. They did not do this with the intention of preventing Wii development, they did it with the intention of ensuring that all copies of their code, including modified copies, remain open source. ScummVM's developers would love to see ScummVM running on the Wii, and they did not attack anyone for doing this; Nintendo is the belligerent party here, for preventing developers from licensing Wii games in certain ways.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  12. Subcontracting risks, not GPL is the story by patSPLAT · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This really should be a story about the legal risks of sub contracting... if you ship the work out, then it's very difficult to make sure all your ducks are in a row.

  13. Re:At least one Wii game uses opensource by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2, Informative

    so Nintendo can't be said to be forbidding opensource solely for being opensource, so there seems to be some sort of misunderstanding or miscommunication here.

    Open-source isn't forbidden. Opening your source is forbidden. So BSD code, fine. GPL cannot be used because Nintendo won't allow you to republish the code.

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  14. Re:How exactly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If there were no copyright laws there isn't any way the GPL could exist, legally speaking.

    And it wouldn't be required either. The GPL is a legal hack to turn copyright law around on itself.

  15. The important point by Toonol · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The bit about open source/GPL software being used isn't the important part of this story. The major point that should be learned is that sub-sub-contracting out to development companies in (sorry, Russia) practically lawless countries can expose the parent company to SEVERE repercussions. Atari wasn't really to blame, other than being too trusting, but they're bearing the costs. The major development houses NEED to be actively involved, at least in an auditing sense, with whoever is actually writing the code.

  16. Wrong Choice of License? by rsmith-mac · · Score: 4, Insightful

    After reading TFA, I get the impression that besides the GPL violations, the choice of license for ScummVM is itself an issue. The ScummVM developers seem to have no specific interest in getting the code back, rather they just want to be credited for their work on ScummVM and are proud of the fact that it was used in a commercial title. Accordingly, it strikes me that ScummVM was wrapped in entirely the wrong license.

    This seems like a textbook case for using the MIT license or some other non-copyleft license where the authors are attributed, but the code isn't forced open. You see this on other projects like LUA or the Vorbis reference decoder, where they are commonly used in commercial games with great success, including Wii games. If the ScummVM developers are as disinterested in the copyleft aspects of the GPL as they seem to be, then they should be looking at relicensing ScummVM under a more permissive license, which would avoid these kinds of snafus. If you just want attribution, it's much easier to just ask for that then to get in these boondoggles of asking for the code and tools too.

  17. Atari pirating software is nothing new. by Ant+P. · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I seem to remember a story a few months back where they distributed code taken from a PC game crack in an official update.

    They obviously consider this sort of behaviour acceptable, so I expect they'll have no problem with people pirating their software en masse.