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Tesla Nabs $465M Government Loan To Build Model S
SignalFreq writes "Tesla Motors, based in San Carlos, California, was approved yesterday for $465M in loans from the Department of Energy's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program. Tesla plans to use $365M of the money to finance a manufacturing facility for the Model S (review, Letterman video) and $100M for a powertrain manufacturing plant in the SF Bay Area. 'Tesla will use the ATVM loan precisely the way that Congress intended — as the capital needed to build sustainable transport,' said Tesla CEO and Product Architect Elon Musk. Tesla expects the Model S to ship in late 2011 and the base cost to be $57,400 ($49,900 after a federal tax credit). Ford received $5.9B and Nissan received $1.6B under the same program."
More bullshit courtesy of the U.S. Gubmint!
I know. Just like those silly Interstate highways, the US Marine Corps, the US Postal Service that'll deliver a package of paper to any door in the US within a day or two for an affordable flat fee, and those terribly inefficient and socialized Firefighters and that neo-communist socialized Police Department. Government. Pah! Who needs it?
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Obama socialist?
People who claim that Obama or the American Democratic party for that matter is socialist needs to take a trip around the globe. In many European countries the Democrats would be considered a right wing party.
> I know. Just like those silly Interstate highways
Roads are specifically mentioned in the US Constitution. Pass
> the US Marine Corps
A Navy is specifically mentioned. The Marines are a sub unit of the Navy. Pass
> the US Postal Service that'll deliver
Postal service is permitted. Pass. But note that most packages use private carriers these days, the postal service is mostly for bills and junk mail.
> and those terribly inefficient and socialized Firefighters and that neo-communist socialized Police Department
Those services are not provided by the US government. Federal money for those purposes are unconstitutional. Good luck getting enough literate Supremes to be able to figure that out any time soon.
US Taxpayer money to a private automaker? Fail. Unless you can point me to the clause I missed that specifically grants the US government that power the 10th Amendment forbids it. Again, good luck finding five Supremes who can read.
Democrat delenda est
Tesla is the only company in the world selling production electric cars that are fully street-legal. They started with a $100K car, and now they're doing a $50K car. They have a $30K car planned for after that.
Basically, you need economies of scale to get the cost of these cars down. Tesla's riding that curve, and plans to eventually have cheaper cars than Ford. This is a potentially great place to invest in American innovation, not to mention the environmental benefits or jobs.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
The kind of people who claim that Obama is socialist aren't the kind of people that travel around the globe. Well OK, Gov. Sanford does, but the REST of them...
"I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
The technology does not exist yet to make a $25k electric car that can succeed in the American market. Tesla is right to start with the high-price, high-profit end of the market and work their way down to the high-volume mainstream as the technology matures and the supply chain scales up. Trying to start out by making a capable electric car for the mainstream American market is a much riskier move, and requires much more up-front money - hence the much larger handouts that have gone to the more established automakers. Tesla, on the other hand, has already established their electric vehicle business as profitable, and can use their profits and experience from the Roadster to help subsidize the development of the Model S.
just a guess, but it could be because of the 3 manufacturing plants and 1100 dealerships Nissan has in the US.
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
Cars are cheap because nearly everybody in this country needs a car. You need a car to get to work, you need it to get to school and you need it for recreation. Sure, if you happen to live in a major city there is also mass transit, but for a large percentage of the population a car is a necessary reality.
Now, with that being said - what happens when something is produced in such great numbers? Economies of scale - the price is driven down due to mass production. Vehicles that cost $13,000 USD are a reality and they're not half bad either. A pretty decent car can be purchased for $20,000, and a really good car for $30,000. Luxury vehicles are nearly anything $40,000 and above.
What about electric cars? They aren't mass produced in any great number just yet, because so far everyone is content with dropping $13,000 on a car that's just "good enough" for their needs. Why do I need an electric vehicle? What benefit does it give me _right now_? Fuel costs decrease significantly, yes - but enough to offset the price of the car? Probably not, even over the lifetime of the vehicle. Therein lies the problem.
Electric vehicles - especially from a non-big 3 startup - are something I believe the government should assist. Your tax dollars are helping fund the future, because while you may not be able to afford this vehicle at $50,000, you might be able to afford the next car they produce using the profits of the Model S.
When the world is filled with "good enough" and people who like "good enough" - how do you convince people to switch to something better?
everyday is another shooter.
Wrong in so many ways.
1) It's not a grant. It's a loan.
2) The Model S is right in the price range of high-end luxury sedans (which is what they're making).
3) Tesla got the overwhelming majority of their Roadsters when there was no EV tax credit. Sure, it'll increase their Model S sales volume, but they'd still sell a ton without it.
4) The whole world is lacking in venture capital right now. It's called a financial crisis. About the only entity that investors trust to loan money to these days are major world governments. Hence, that makes them effectively the only entity able to give loans worth half a billion dollars to all but the most established large businesses.
5) If you have such a problem with half a billion dollar loan, I'd hate to see how you'd react to the $5.9 billion loan Ford just got from the same program.
I tore these out of your symbol, and they turned into paper.
should have been a 25K car cost cap.
In the electric car industry, that's simply too big a jump to make all at once. If your ultimate goal is to produce 200,000 $25k cars a year, and the current state of the art is 2,000 $100k cars a year (the Tesla Roadster), then it's only reasonable to expect to produce 20,000 $50k cars (the Tesla Model S) as a stepping-stone. The market is there, and those early adopters will facilitate the eventual availability of the $25k mass-market car you're talking about. If you do the math, the "rich" purchasers of the Model S will be kicking in about one billion dollars a year towards this goal, double the government loan amount. So think before you knock 'em.
Weeks of coding saves hours of planning.
It's not a handout. It's a loan. You know like the loans you can get for small businesses from the feds and state governments.
At $50,000 the Model S is more likely to be used as a fleet car then something you use at home. For those who say this is a waste of money I'd like to point three things out: 1. GM spend 1.2 BILLION to build a PROTOTYPE electric car, which they didn't put into productions. This is money to build a factory that will actually um make cars. 2. Tesla is going to use this money to build electric vehicle components in the US for other companies. Having that kind of production is the US is BIG DEAL for our balance ot trade. 3. Tesla is more likely to pay
You remind me of my Dad in 1975 when new cars were required to have catalytic converters and could no longer use leaded gas.
I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
Exactly. Tesla's approach is perfectly cogent. Starting a car company is a *huge* expense. Look at what Coda is having to go through to bring a new car to the US -- they mentioned that they still need to crash another *30 to 40 cars* to get certified. And that's just the half of it. There are no volume parts producers for EV components. Look at the Roadster transmission fiasco -- there literally was no multi-gear transmission in the world that would work with their motor, and when they spent a fortune trying to get a company to engineer one for them, what they ended up with couldn't take the stress.
The logical approach, then, is to piggyback as much work as you can onto that of an existing manufacturer (in this case, Lotus), focus only on what's different, and start at the high end so that you can absorb the capital costs into the vehicle price without creating sticker shock. People expect a carbon fiber car that does 0-60 in 4 seconds to be expensive. The fact that low-volume EV drivetrain components are super-expensive doesn't matter there, because so are the low-volume ICE components that they compete against.
This is the next logical step: an independently developed, not-piggybacked, luxury sedan. This means building a large-volume factory, with a chassis developed from scratch that's designed for your EV needs. Of course, this is incredibly expensive. Hence the need to raise a ton of capital. In the middle of a financial crisis. :P
Once they've retired that risk, even higher volumes/lower prices become realistic. Which is their plan with the Bluestar.
That seems to be the same approach being taken by Fisker. I think a reasonable alternative approach is that being taken by Aptera. Three wheels to skirt the federal requirements, but put a heavy *independent* focus on safety, with a vehicle that's so uber-streamlined and lightweight that it simply doesn't need a powerful drivetrain or large battery pack to perform well. Hence they can start at near the bottom of the market, where there is a lot less competition. Once they're rolling off the lines, you can expect to see from them what Tesla is doing now -- raising large amounts of money to build a factory for a more mainstream, higher volume sedan (although they'll almost certainly keep their extreme-efficiency focus).
I tore these out of your symbol, and they turned into paper.
Why is the United States government giving money to Nissan? Shouldn't the Japanese government do that and not the U. S. taxpayer?
They are getting money because they are trying to produce a car that might help the US reduce its dependence on dangerous, foreign, terror-funding oil.
They are getting money because they might employ you, and many other US citizens.
They are in a better position to employ you and others than 2 of the 3 major American car manufacturers because they are not shite.
Surely you don't think they are taking the money back to Tokyo to spend on kimonos?
I'm anti-subsidy for luxury car manufacturers. Starting at $49,900 -- bah! How about spending a fraction of this to rip out the engine of a Chevy Aveo and put in an electric motor? How about an electric car people can actually buy? Innovation not required!
There is a bit more to the Tesla cars than just ripping out the ICE and putting in a regular electric motor. There is very advanced liquid-cooled Lithium Ion battery technology, a next-gen 3-phase/4 pole motor, etc. It performs at par or better than other cars in its price point, and is also practical (can carry 5 passengers and their luggage comfortably). It is easily 200 to 300 percent more energy efficient than a typical hybrid as well. Luxury or not, getting such a vehicle to market is very worthwhile. Remember the Prius was the favourite toy of green-wannabe celebrities and rich folk in its early adoption phase, and this is a much better alternative.
Given the nature of the technology this is the ONLY way to bring it forward. I think GM's approach (with bringing out a less exotic Chevy Volt) or yours (an even more austere Aveo) is backwards. Say it costs $5000 to $10000 to implement the advanced battery and drivetrain at this point in development. This means the cost of an electric Aveo would be 50+ percent higher than for a gas one, which is "cheap enough" to run in the first place. NOBODY who is willing to be an "early adopter" would buy an electric aveo at a profitable price point, because green and innovative as the drivetrain would be, the rest of the car is actually rather crappy.
OTOH, The Tesla S is probably no more tha 10 or 20% more expensive than a comparable car that runs on petroleum fuel. Early adopters tend to be more affluent as well, and when you get to that less-than-20% premium for something cool and new. This car has a realistic chance of making a profit, or at least paying back its loans. The Volt or an electric Aveo would be a guaranteed money loser.
Remember, that Tesla got its loans specifically because it has committed to re-investing profits from early, more exotic/expensive models into more practical, affordable models. Even in its early stages on the market it has established a track record: It followed up an exotic, very expensive roadster with a luxury sedan that is actually very practical and within the price range of upper-middle class households (the ones who buy Escalades, BMW 5 or 7 series, etc). Ensuring the success of the S means the much more likely possibility of an under $30K vehicle that competes right in the mainstream sedan market.
If the US is going to get all socialist on us, I'm glad it isn't following the tired old thinking that to support innovation it must have this fixation on immediately addressing the needs of the "masses" or "working poor" or that crap, when it isn't realistic from a business perspective. Certainly better than taking a controlling interest in a loser bankrupt GM or gifting Chrysler to the unions--doing both with massive loans backing the moves (if taxpayers weren't forced to accept such nonsense, thay'd never in their right mind invest in such shaky enterprises). GM in particular has been the ABSOLUTE LEAST INNOVATIVE auto company on the entire planet for decades--even its best products are dependable but very boring and un-innovative, and they've invested the least into new technologies in their plants out of EVERY SINGLE company that builds cars in N America.
If my gov't is going to throw boatloads of cash around on speculative enterprises, I'd MUCH rather it go do something bold, new, exciting and innovative like Tesla than something tired, old and nothing to show for in terms of innovation than words and vague plans crafted for the purpose of begging for alms from the gov't. as GM and Chrysler have done in the last year.
Because the money is going to a Nissan plant in TN that is being retrofitted to develop, manufacture, and test cutting edge batteries. Would you rather that the DOE does not provided to money on some idiotic jingoistic grounds only so that a future industry in and that portion of the economy is cornered in Japan?
Although I don't doubt that there are political reasons for having some Tesla mfg in the US (not to mention tariffs, etc) there are also some practical ones:
1) You can't just take some laid off Mexican auto assemblers from an old GM plant, put them in a new building and tell them to start making Electric car drivetrains -there are probably entirely new process steps (not to mention components) which would make this a non-starter
2) they probably need to tweak that process as well as being able to introduce changes in parts as the design is tested and improved
therefore it makes sense for the factory to be close to where design/engineering takes place -not to mention that there is also a highly trained, technologically able workforce in the Bay Area.
Also, thanks to Hitech, Lockheed, Lawrence Livermore Labs, etc there are a great many machine tooling shops in the area which are second to none.
Think of this as a pilot mfg plant -they will no doubt try to go somewhere cheaper when it comes time to produce quantities in the 100ks
On the other hand, we have the only large scale auto manufacturing plant left on the West Coast just down the street from me: http://www.nummi.com/ , so stranger things have happened.
-I'm just sayin'