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Apple Update Means Palm Pre Can No Longer Sync With iTunes
endikos writes "Apple updated iTunes to version 8.2.1. According to the changelog, it offers bug fixes and 'addresses an issue with verification of Apple devices.' In other words, 'Buzz off, Palm Pre. You ain't no iPhone.'"
Palm: "Oh no you didn't!"
Apple: "Oh yes iDid."
Frist psoError: Device type "palm" not authorised!"
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
1. Microsoft put the work in, why should anyone else be able to run software on windows?
2. Meh, I don't own anything apple or palm, and I do prefer jsut using files. I just dislike idiocy (your post).
I interviewed at Apple a few years ago, and a consistent message from the developers was that *everything* they do is to make the customer experience better. Things are not done simply because they're cool -- they have to serve a purpose.
So I find it ironic that, as a MacBook Pro user, Apple has explicitly done something to make my experience *worse*. They went much further than simply failing to "provide support for, or test for compatibility with, non-Apple digital media players." They went out of their way to harm users.
Shame on you, Apple. Have you gotten so big that you've forgotten what it was like to be under Microsoft's thumb?
-Scott Hutton
Apple's devices are also virtually 100% secure, just like OS X. Having a device that has an unproven security record lie and say it is an iPhone or iPod (which neither of which has had a malware issue since their inception) is a disservice to Apple's users, so it's completely understandable why Apple would put the kibosh on the matter for good.
I'm not surprised, and I don't think that Apple should be forbidden to do what they have done; but my interpretation of the situation is exactly the opposite of yours.
Most of the power of modern computer systems is in the useful interaction between components. For Vendor B to build a product that interacts in a desirable way with Vendor A's product is exactly what should happen, and is about as "classy" as anything a corporate person is going to do. For vendor A to turn around and break that interaction is a middle finger in the eye for the customers. A middle finger they are permitted to insert; but the notion of praising them for it is absurd.
Should your browser have an "invite" to work with a web server from a different vendor? Do makers of aftermarket parts lack class? Why praise a company's self interested attempt to improve its fortunes at your expense?
Companies that actively thwart interoperability and promote lock-in are incompatible with the best interests of their own customers.
I don't care how pretty Apple's products are. If you own an iPhone, a Mac, or use iTunes, you are supporting this kind of corporate behaviour. Either you care enough to modify your behaviour, or you don't.
Give your dollars to companies that are demonstrably "less bad" whenever possible. Accept that you'll have to go without some of the bling until the market catches up.
No, but they do have a very closed application market, and until very recently a very closed music market, and still a very closed video market. Put all those together along with the over-zealous guys over at the EU who sued Intel for basically having a large marketshare, and you have a risk that I don't think Apple would want to take.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Until such time as it's shown that they have a monopoly in online music distribution, at which point courts in various places will start to look seriously at why interoperativity isn't there.
And if/when they see behaviour like this, specifically designed to limit it, they'll likely make rulings about it.
I see the motivation for Apple - they are basically the only game in town when it comes to mp3, unless you're a geek - and they could see this as diluting their hold on the market.
Doesn't make them any less dickish for doing it though.
You could always use DVD Jon's DoubleTwist to sync the Palm Pre.
It reads iTunes libraries (including those irritatingly hidden away on iPods/Phones) and syncs to lots of devices quite nicely.
It's not exactly full-featured enough yet to use as your main media player, but it's really useful for moving stuff between devices.
And perhaps you ought to try to understand what a monopoly is and how making blanket statements about what apple are entitled to do with their stuff is stupid.
They are able to o this precisely until they are found to be a monopoly in either market, at which point locking hardware (iPod is definitely at monopoly stage) and software (iTunes must have over half the music download market) is abusive behaviour.
Specifically killing interop with other products is verging on illegal behavious and certainly makes them arseholes.
Palm should go with Songbird. Songbird is not 100% stable and bug free (I have been testing it lately), but if they offer a bit of assistance to the SF-based team, they could make it work for them just fine.
And in the process, maybe they would be able to open the doors for more smartphones/players who are in need of a capable mp3 organizer.
Intel were sued for illegal business practices. They used their virtual CPU monopoly to bully or 'bribe' system builders into not stocking AMD.
I'm loving how many USians are getting their panties in a twist about it though, so don't let me stop you. ;)
What DRM laden music?
Simple. Apple doesn't want to have to support Palm.
If the Pre had NEVER worked with iTunes, there wouldn't be a problem. Because Apple was slow to modify things so it didn't work, they're going to take some flak. If they'd let things go for a year or two or whatever until they changed something in iTunes, for other reasons, that broke Pre compatibility, they'd be in even bigger trouble.
They are able to do this precisely until they are found to be a monopoly in either market, at which point locking hardware (iPod is definitely at monopoly stage) and software (iTunes must have over half the music download market) is abusive behaviour.
Except they do no such locking at this point. iTunes music is now DRM-free and can be played on any device including Palm Pre. iTunes music library is an XML file with straightforward schema and there are various SDKs for accessing it even more easily. All Palm has to do is develop a separate preference panel to specify what gets synced.
What Apple is trying to prevent is people connecting a Palm and getting a tab in iTunes that has multiple occurrences of the word "iPod". This can be seen as a subtle case of trademark dilution.
Apple is entering a losing battle with this change. Next up, I imagine either:
a) firmware update on the Palm Pre that more thoroughly disguises the way the device advertises itself
b) app you can run from your Palm Pre that shims iTunes.
hardware company and not like a software company. Clones aren't necessarily bad as long as they can build superior devices (or have the image for it) and where they would still make money on every sale. They could make decent money being the #1 music site on the web. So what the device isn't an iPod?
I wonder how many people care about iTunes connectivity when they buy an mp3 player? Is it a requirement or afterthought? If it becomes a requirement, that would promote more lock-in for Apple than sabotaging their software against other devices.
Giving a rebate for not stocking a competitor? That sounds pretty much exactly like a bribe to me.
Seriously think about this for a minute. You've got a device manufacturer that creates a direct competitor to Apple's products, openly advertising that they are piggybacking onto Apple's software functionality without negotiating some kind of licensing agreement and without Apple's consent. Then Apple closes the loophole that enables this unsupported functionality. But nobody wants to blame poor underdog Palm for having done this in the first place. Your average consumer, who either is too ignorant or too self-centered to think two steps ahead, buys into the advertised functionality and then blames Apple when they decide to break it?
That's not how the game is played, folks. If Palm wants to compete, then let them create their own service and interface rather than leveraging another company's successful work. You say that's unfair because Apple has created a heavily lopsided playing field, and now it's impossible to compete with the massive popularity of iTunes. But you have to ask yourself, where were these same competitors five years ago? What where they doing? They were twiddling their thumbs and milking the consumer for all they were worth while making incremental improvements in their devices. Then Apple came along and blew the whole mobile device market away with the iPhone and NOW they want to complain about the playing field not being level? Fuck that bullshit.
Make no mistake, I don't particularly approve that Apple did what they did, but if you bought a Palm Pre and couldn't see this coming you are not only blind but you're an idiot. Palm, RIM, Nokia, Samsung, Sony--all the handset makers, not to mention the telecoms who still continue to nickel-and-dime consumers with exorbitant rates on SMS (for no other reason except that they can), are not, and never were, your friends just because now they're the underdogs. Same thing with the MP3 player market. These companies want you to think that slapping on features like they were afterthoughts is "technological progress." They never had the vision to rethink the whole device and the whole user experience from the bottom up. And now people have the balls to complain that Apple is a monopoly because they gave you real competition? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
Ok you are going to have to spell this out quite clearly because you obviously don't understand any of the syllables in the definition of a monopoly.
You also don't understand that a monopoly is not a bad thing for a business. I don't quite understand why you think that interoperability is a right and therefore bad that Apple doesn't make it possible but they actually do except for the crappy DRM forced on them by the Music industry. I also fail to see how a company that is one of a minimum of 3 count 'em 3 markets for online music sales is a monopoly simply because it is the preferred market. The iPod is hardly a monopoly as I see quite a few MP3 players in the stores and I see many 3rd party software packages for Windows and Macs that will happily manage the music on them besides iTunes. Thirdly there is nothing stopping someone from putting new operating systems on their Apple hardware not even Apple cares just don't ask Apple to support it any more than expecting Microsoft to support Linux on Windows capable Hardware. As far as I can see Apple is a progressive dynamic company making butt loads of money. They make smart business decisions and maintain dominance in their markets despite competition. This is after all what a company is SUPPOSED to do.
Why bother
What Apple is trying to prevent is people connecting a Palm and getting a tab in iTunes that has multiple occurrences of the word "iPod". This can be seen as a subtle case of trademark dilution.
What Apple is trying to do is not let a non-Apple device sync with iTunes, isn't it? Without, I presume, some form of licensing or fee or something from the manufacturer. If that's not what they are doing, if all they really want to do is protect the trademark "iPod," then there is a major communication breakdown between Palm and Apple.
So when hackers used to take advantage of RPC vulnerabilities in Windows XP, and then Microsoft patched it so they couldn't, the hackers had a right to be mad that this functionality was removed?
You're comparing a person's ability to use his own copy of iTunes to sync his own music library with his own Palm Pre to a hacker's ability to remotely exploit other people's Windows boxes without their consent? Sorry, try again.
Your comment implies that syncing a Palm Pre with iTunes was a function fully intended and provided by Apple, and it wasn't.
No, it doesn't. It only implies that syncing a Palm Pre with iTunes was useful and valuable, and Apple has destroyed that value by disabling it.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
It's boorish.
It makes Apple look so very close to Microsoft in attitude that I'm apalled. Embrace-and-extend doesn't mean spank your customers.
No matter whether you like iTunes or iPhone, they ought to be able to work with other stuff, as you mention, as in interoperability. Purposeful disenfranchisement is the mark of a child. Take your toys and go home.
Mod me -1 as in ashamed of Apple.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
I would have to agree. I liken this to the old saying Windows isn't done until 1-2-3 won't run. Why should a vendor be allowed to deliberately modify software so that another vendors product will not run. I do not believe that the I-tunes UELA says that I have to have an Apple device to use the software.
Americans brought the English language to the continent. They coined the terms North America and South America. Seems fair to me that they appropriated the word American for themselves. I have a lot of friends from Central and South America. They don't want to be called Americans. They want to be called Brazilians, or Salvadorians, or Mexicans, or otherwise associated with their country. It's really similar to the way that people from America like being called Americans. Go figure.
Are you just bitter because you have to be a European, and there isn't a country called Europe? Maybe you're feeling a little small because your entire country probably fits within a couple American states?
A device masquerading as another device by using the same USB manufacturer/device ID is not the way to build interoperability. It's just inviting all sorts of unintended consequences and bugs. How did this ever pass muster at Palm?
Are you for real? This is the same shit that MS did with Windows. If we allow this type of behavior in a very short time we will see vehicles which can only be refueled at specific gas stations. Appliances which can only be repaired by authorized vendors. etc...
They have no obligation to support but a deliberate attempt to disable a feature should be illegal.
I for one will NEVER purchase a product that I can't do with as I please for my personal use. If you deliberately break the product then I guarantee you will not see one red penny from me ever again. It's the main reason I don't purchase from iTunes.
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
iTunes sucks, but many people are using it and have used it for years. Being able to sync with iTunes makes the Pre or any device a drop-in replacement for the iPhone/iPods, and that is what Apple is scared of. They want the same type of lock-in damned if you do, damned if you don't control that Microsoft had for oh-so-long in this industry. Think Different, as long as its the Same.
Speaking as an ex-Support person, if you ever support one thing, once, implictly customers will whinge when you break it through no fault of your own.
They will also bitch if you explicitly say we don't support it before giving a hand with their unsupported problem anyway because you're a decent human being.
Apple was 100% right. It's not a published standard. If they broke shit accidentally later on there'd be hell to pay. Nip it in the bud now.
Yeah I mean here's the skinny on this. You spend years making a name for yourself and writing software that people use to handle their hardware. You give it away for free to everyone because it has some general use. But you put your store in it and then add a hardware sync function. Now you've spent millions of dollars in developer time and advertising to make this work. Along comes a direct competitor and shoves his nose into a crack in the fence and starts cannibalizing your customers with your own software. and you fix the fence and everyone else screams? Give me a break. The whiners here are pathetic and wrong. If you don't like Apple don't use their products, go away and shut the f*** up. Or alternatively offer correct and useful intelligent conversation not this whiny "how dare they" crap. Like a bunch of foxes complaining about how sour those grapes probably are.
Why bother
[...] and let's not forget the Zune.
no... seriously... lets
Obama is a twitter sock puppet
Until Ipod holds a 90% or larger share and they use that to illegally force people out of ANOTHER marketplace, you really dont know what you are talking about.
Um, the iPod has been hovering above and below that number for a while. Kinda Legitimate Proof.
"Educate the mind but never at the expense of the soul."~Blessed Basil Moreau
It makes Apple look so very close to Microsoft in attitude that I'm apalled.
You must be new here.
I mean, think about it. The iPhone is a more locked-down platform than anything Microsoft has done in the mobile space, or on the desktop. And Apple is rejecting apps for fairly arbitrary reasons.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
People of European descent who live or lived in what's now called the United States of America have been calling themselves Americans since long before there was a United States thereof and were widely known as such in Europe. They saw no reason to change that after they defeated what was then the most powerful military state in the world largely because:
1. They were used to referring to themselves as Americans.
2. "United Statesians" didn't exactly roll off the tongue.
Any other conjecture, theory or wild-assed guess relating to residents of the United States "appropriating" the term American is utter nonsense.
This ain't rocket surgery.
s/interesting/boring
That's the biggest load of BS I've ever seen. If Apple really cared about brand dilution rather than breaking interoperability, they would have made iTunes detect the Pre and sync it under a properly labeled tab rather than just break syncing, it wouldn't require appreciably more code than what they did, and it wouldn't be a ridiculous dick move either... or completely futile as this is likely to prove when Palm works around it in under a week.
Apple is being petty and obnoxious to their own PAYING CUSTOMERS simply because some people made the cardinal sin of buying a semi-related product they didn't make. I can only imagine what the people honestly trying to defend that would say if Microsoft did this instead of Apple, or even if Google did this instead of Apple.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
The entire computer industry is based on interoperability. When I buy a Mac, or an iPod, and get iTunes--> I expect it to work. If I buy something else, I expect that Apple doesn't purposefully thwart the use of that device to control their sales.
That 'slap' you cite is in your face, and the face of many people that expect and demand interoperability without being thwarted. Apple doesn't write a spec called iTunes. If they were half an organization, they'd do just that and stop looking like small children.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
iTunes is free.
Apple give it away for nothing, zero, nada, nil, zilch.
Forgive me if I don't find it surprising that a feature built into an app they give you for free that is designed to sell iPods and iPhones is disabled for your competitor's device, in direct competition with the cash cow that is keeping your shareholders happy.
You think it should seriously be illegal to make and sell a product that is incompatible with your competitor's product? At what stage of development? If you release to market and your widget has a square hole, and your competitor makes a foo that goes into that hole, is it now illegal for you to release a new version with a triangular hole?
What is apple doing to stifle mp3 player manufacturers? What is apple doing to stifle online music stores?
There are tons of other players out there, and tons of other online music stores. Apple designed a wildly successful product with supporting software and services. Amazon mp3's work on iPods, and the itunes-plus music (which is most of the catalog) will play on any player that supports AAC. I only buy the Plus stuff already because it's higher quality, but I get most of my music from amazon.
Here is a partial list of devices that support AAC:
PS3
PSP
sony walkman and sony phones from ericsson
nseries phones from nokia
Android-based phones
Wii
Nintendo DSi
Here is a partial list of online music vendors that are compatible with ipods:
http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/articles/comments/free-music-for-your-ipod
rhapsody
amazon
lala.com
Wii controllers don't work with PS3s. Garmin gps units don't work with tomtom software. canon printer software won't run epson printers. Do I need to go on?
People seem to conflate "trying to make a buck" with anti-competitive practices. We have to draw the line somewhere. The ITMS/iPod franchise is not in itself anti-competitive any more than an auto dealership is- you can buy more than one make of car from one and you can have your car worked on by other mechanics.
-b
No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
If people hated iTunes as much as you think, the iPod wouldn't be the #1 MP3 player. People would buy a Zune instead, so they didn't have to use iTunes. Think about it--all the functionality of an iPod, and it's cheaper, and they'd be able to use WMP instead of iTunes. If people didn't like iTunes, they'd leap at that.
And before the Zune there were plenty of other MP3 players, using other software (or no special software) to load 'em up. They all died away, because the average person likes iTunes just fine.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
If Wikipedia is correct Apple had 88% of the U.S. download market in 2006 and it passed Walmart as the #1 all around music sales leader in 2008. iTunes is a defacto monopoly now and Apple better start treading more carefully. Using tie ins to build new monopolies, which seems to be what they are doing here, is especially dangerous. An antitrust regulator might be inclined to say Apple's defacto monopoly on online music sales is giving them an unfair advantage in other markets, in this case the smartphone market. If a competitor can't bring a new smartphone to market because they can't access online music because of a monopoly Apple is begging for an antitrust complaint.
You can argue competitors just have to start their own competing MP3 service but that is a very tall order, especially since it requires inking deals with a relatively small number of recording companies that are something of cartel themselves. They are already distributing their product through iTunes and may or may not give a competing MP3 services the same terms, or may not deal with them at all which would make the iTunes monopoly very pronounced and entrenched.
@de_machina
You can still listen to ITMS music on your pre. You can still listen to amazon mp3's on your ipod.
The only thing broken now is that iTunes won't recognize the pre as an ipod (oh, maybe because the pre isn't an ipod) meaning that itunes won't automatically sync calendars, contacts, new music, etc. You can still do those things manually just like with every other phone, every other phone that no one ever talks about because NO ONE writes software for their phone/device that explicitly supports their COMPETITOR's products.
I'm halfway through the comments in here and I think I'm done reading. It's like walking down the corridor of a mental asylum- paranoia, delusions of grandeur, dogmatism, and the guy bashing his head into the wall. Yeah, brother, you show apple who's boss by buying a Palm instead of an iPhone! Yeah! Ok now let's see how well iPhones work with Palm software...
-b
No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
"Hey, I can't sync my iPod with Windows Media Player! MICROSOFT MONOPOLY ABUSE!"
Probably, yes. Was that supposed to be inflammatory or shocking? Microsoft are assholes, and so are Apple, what's your point?
"Apple has no obligation whatsoever to let anyone else sync with iTunes, just like any other playlist/sync app has no obligation to let other software sync with theirs. There is nothing stopping Palm from making their own software or getting a plugin for something like WinAmp. In addition, unless you have DRM'ed iTunes music, you can pull all of that music right out and sync it with any other software that supports the Pre. Anyone who didn't see this coming a mile away is obviously not thinking very clearly."
No, nor does Microsoft have any obligation to not break iTunes on Windows. Palm isn't forcing users to download iTunes, the users are doing it for themselves because they like the Pre and they like iTunes. You're right about one thing though, anyone who didn't see this coming from a mile away probably aren't thinking clearly: Apple pull this kind of douchebaggery all the time. What I don't get is how you or anyone else can actually rationalize this as a fair and reasonable thing to do.
"Your argument is little more than petty Apple-bashing and holds no water. Apple isn't keeping people from using their music on the Pre. They're keeping people from using iTunes to sync with their Pre, which is very different. Like someone else said, it would be pretty simple for Palm to make an app that reads the iTunes XML file and syncs your music from there instead of within iTunes. There are a hundred different ways Palm can sync their device. Piggybacking on iTunes was one of the dumbest."
NONE OF WHICH ACTUALLY JUSTIFIES APPLE INTENTIONALLY, SPECIFICALLY, AND MALICIOUSLY PREVENTING THE PRE FROM SYNCING WITH ITUNES. Read your statement, then read that sentence one more time and let it sink in. Apple went out of their way to do this simply for the sake of doing it, they stand to gain absolutely nothing from it, the only possible explanation is that they are upset that people are buying the Pre instead of iPhones, and criticizing them for it is "little more than petty Apple-bashing that holds no water." Wow. I don't care if there are a thousand ways to put music on a Pre, and I don't care if syncing it with iTunes is somehow pointless or stupid or inferior, because that still isn't a good reason for Apple to do that. They could have improved their software to make it work better and marketed it as a feature, they could have fixed the incorrect identification of the Pre as an iPod, or they could have done nothing at all, but instead they chose to reduce functionality out of spite. Seriously.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
iTunes is a defacto monopoly now and Apple better start treading more carefully.
Why? The iTunes Store enables media acquisition, desktop playback, library organization, and is written to sync with Apple devices. All your downloads are sitting pretty, right there on your hard drive, fully available for you to use as you please. Anything you downloaded with DRM you got with the known caveat that it would only work with Apple products.
Using tie ins to build new monopolies, which seems to be what they are doing here, is especially dangerous.
If by build new monopolies, you mean not supporting syncing of third-party devices on their unpublished, internal protocol, then sure. But that's an uphill battle to convince anyone that that is an unlawful monopoly.
An antitrust regulator might be inclined to say Apple's defacto monopoly on online music sales is giving them an unfair advantage in other markets, in this case the smartphone market.
Not really. It gives them an advantage in the internal syncing department, but as a natural effect of them making both products.
If Palm wants to access the iTunes library XML file and use that to load information in its own sync software, the file's sitting right there for them to use. Failing that, it can read the file/folder structure and metadata directly and compile its own library.
The Pre isn't disabled. Palm tried to piggyback on iTunes using an undocumented and unsupported hack to capture a competitor's market with zero effort. Talk about unfair advantage.
If a competitor can't bring a new smartphone to market because they can't access online music because of a monopoly
Where can't they? 1. Buy music from Amazon, iTunes, Walmart, Microsoft, whatever. 2. Transfer files to Pre. 3. Profit.
You can argue competitors just have to start their own competing MP3 service
Like the rest of your comment, it's entirely off base and out of scope. Palm doesn't need an MP3 service. All they have to do, and all they had to do from the start, was put a modicum of effort into writing their own synchronization software. There's nothing particularly special about the media storage of iTunes (files and folders) or the library database (XML).
Palm just noticed that there was a way they could get plug-and-chug support for free, and leave Apple holding the bag of dog crap when future versions of iTunes no longer worked with whatever hacked-together code was stuffed onto the Pre. Suddenly "iTunes broke my Pre!" would ring out all across the Internet.
that is a very tall order, especially since it requires inking deals with a relatively small number of recording companies that are something of cartel themselves.
Apple did it, and did it before the lucrative nature of the setup had empirical evidence. If anything, it should be easier to compete now.
Get real. The iTunes Store has almost nothing to do with this. The iTunes client software, developed by Apple, supports syncing Apple devices. They're not, nor in any rational world would they be, required to support third party data transfer.
If you want to put all smartphone manufacturers in a room and tell them to come up with an open standard for data synchronization, fine, but until that's the case, get real.
You're babbling about nothing. Palm never had any right or reasonable expectation to be able to use Apple's unpublished protocols and expect it to work in a production environment. No one's stopping Palm from syncing the media or selling their smartphones.