Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

A History of Early Text Adventure Games

Posted by Soulskill on from the still-waiting-on-mod-10 dept.

HFKap writes "The earliest computer games were pure text and were passed around freely on the ARPANET, culminating in the 'cave crawls' Adventure and Dungeon. The advent of the home computer opened up a commercial market for text adventure games, though the limited resources of these machines presented significant technical problems. Many companies vied for success in this market, but the best-remembered today is Infocom, founded by a group from MIT. Infocom's virtual memory and virtual machine innovations enabled them to design extremely ambitious and creative games, which they dubbed Interactive Fiction (IF). Ultimately the text game lost its paying customers to the lure of graphical games, such as those produced by Sierra On-Line. This article is a dialogue between Harry Kaplan and Jimmy Maher, editor of the modern IF community's pre-eminent e-zine SPAG."

130 comments

  1. It is very dark. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

    1. Re:It is very dark. by sopssa · · Score: 1

      I remember text adventure games from my early teenage years. No, they weren't roleplaying games, but instead textbased sex games just made by someone with qbasic. You would have a basic scenario and along the way you got to choose what you did and how to continue from there. Damn it was hot in '95.

    2. Re:It is very dark. by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Which makes this almost obligatory:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nigRT2KmCE

      From everyone's favorite nerdcore rapper, MC Frontalot.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  2. IF is not dead! by santax · · Score: 5, Funny

    Whenever I go to foxnews I am happy to see there are still many, many very creative people releasing this interactive fiction, complete with hyperlinks to make it interactive leading you to even more fiction. I would say if there is one genre that really stood the test of time. It is IF. Horay!

    1. Re:IF is not dead! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fiction is better than propaganda and deliberate lies found elsewhere (ABCCBSNBAMSNBACNNNYTWAPO). At least fiction is entertaining.

    2. Re:IF is not dead! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Informative? Whoever modded this needs to be metamoderated into oblivion.

    3. Re:IF is not dead! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      How is that fiction interactive? I can't go and punch some corrupt politician into the mid of next week (and if I do, all I accomplish is that I need a new TV).

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:IF is not dead! by Sandbags · · Score: 1

      Thank you for brightening my day! That is one of the funniest true statements I've heard in weeks!

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    5. Re:IF is not dead! by Elbowgeek · · Score: 1

      I think the most entertaining and creative IF, for me, was Leather Goddesses of Phobos. Just like reading a book, one made the scene in one's head, which was far more vivid than any of the best graphics cards of today. Also, every player would have his or her own vision of the scene, completely different from anyone else's.

      I distinctly recall it had a "boss key" (whatever happened to those?) which would bring up a Lotus 123-style spreadsheet. But on that sheet were a list of kinky sex objects - hilarious.

      --
      Who is this delectable creature with an insatiable love of the dead?
    6. Re:IF is not dead! by BlueKitties · · Score: 1

      Foxnew's fair and balanced coverage may seem like fiction my friends, but I can assure you it's 100% facts. In fact, today only, our pals are offering free implants to boost cognitive function. Join us, friends, and help stop the secular liberal progressive homosexual socialist object oriented movement!

      --
      "Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
    7. Re:IF is not dead! by ubrgeek · · Score: 1

      So don't hit him with your TV. Use a Buick ;)

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
  3. traumatized to this day by notnAP · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Oh look! A rainbow!"
    "You are at the fountain."

  4. Best of Memories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I must be getting old. I remember "flashbulb" memories and genuine excitement about Adventure whenever a huge block of text would scroll into the screen, indicating a new area or a puzzle solved. We used a rotary dial phone into a 300 baud acoustic coupled modem on a dumb terminal in 1977. Ah, fond memories of my first exposure to computers.

    Long Live Plugh!!!

  5. Proof Graphics != Good Game by bertoelcon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This should stand as proof that graphics should not be in the forefront of the entire gaming industry, they had graphics then and did much better giving a fully descriptive story as was needed. I really want to see some level of text based gaming come back. Hell it might be a great way to market a Wii Keyboard.

    --
    Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    1. Re:Proof Graphics != Good Game by John+Miles · · Score: 5, Informative

      I really want to see some level of text based gaming come back.

      Text gaming didn't leave, it just went indie. Some of the best works since the Infocom days have appeared in the annual rec.arts.int-fiction competition, the 15th of which is in progress now.

      Someone below mentioned Photopia, and that's a good place to start (it took first place in the IF competition nine or ten years ago).

      --
      Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
    2. Re:Proof Graphics != Good Game by crazybit · · Score: 1

      "Have you ever wanted to jump into a book and live inside that world? Here is your chance."

      medievia.com is still up and running, you might like that community.

      --
      - Human knowledge belongs to the world
    3. Re:Proof Graphics != Good Game by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This should stand as proof that graphics should not be in the forefront of the entire gaming industry, they had graphics then and did much better giving a fully descriptive story as was needed

      The dialog and descriptions were not always as good as you remember them.

      The more important lesson to be learned from Infocom - and the best graphical adventures - is that they were willing to explore and exploit any environment and any popular fictional genre.

      Detective story, police procedural. Lovecraftian horror. Traditional, hard core Sci-Fi...

       

    4. Re:Proof Graphics != Good Game by Quirkz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This should stand as proof that graphics should not be in the forefront of the entire gaming industry, they had graphics then and did much better giving a fully descriptive story as was needed. I really want to see some level of text based gaming come back.

      Text-based gaming isn't completely dead. There are niche markets, particularly with browser-based games.

      One of my favorites, and one I've been playing for more than three years, is Kingdom of Loathing (http://www.kingdomofloathing.com). Yes, they do have images, but they're stick figures, static GIFs, so it's essentially text-based with a little accent. Humorous writing, complicated puzzles ... all that stuff is alive and well in this fantasy RPG. They're maybe halfway between pure text and an RPG like Bard's Tale - more interface than the former, much more writing than the latter. Heck, they even have a grue familiar as an homage to some of the classic games. (It's free to play, too. There's a donation model, but non-donators don't miss out on anything.)

      I'd be remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to plug my own game (also free to play, no penalty for non-donators, I assume it's okay to mention here), which is was inspired by Kingdom of Loathing but is a superhero-themed RPG. Twilight Heroes, at http://www.twilightheroes.com./

      --
      The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
    5. Re:Proof Graphics != Good Game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Don't support that game.

      The developer stole the DikuMUD code and started "accepting donations" for it, which is not allowed under the Diku license.

      Everything about that game is a farce. Illegal and unjust.

      google medthievia for more information.

    6. Re:Proof Graphics != Good Game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The world in your imagination is infinitely better than a graphical representation. If the story is properly written, a beautiful landscape will spill into your head and you won't need to examine pixels, etc...

      These are the games for the blind. The blind have known that because they have no sight that the other senses compensate, usually by becoming sharper.

      I say that IF is good for the advancement of critical thought as it will force us to be more like the blind in how we consume every bit of information.

    7. Re:Proof Graphics != Good Game by sowth · · Score: 1

      Inexpensive / easy to make video games are very bad for video game companies. This means any independent joker can create a game and publish it. Much like what is happening with the music "industry" since computers have made it cheap and easy to record and mix music, and the internet has made it easy to distribute, so any joker with a guitar can potentially become a hit.

      Video game companies are protected by producing one-off games whose material is thrown away and rebuilt constantly. The models and artwork are highly tuned with countless man hours--even though human characters still look like either plastic or clay. Yet the brainwashed masses say "this looks so much better than last year's games." As far as I am concerned, since games have gone 3D in a way everyone can afford it, the look hasn't really improved much, it is just different and higher resolution. The only reason to keep it up is for company profits and luser bragging rights. How many people can really tell the difference between 1024x768 and 3200x2400? Most of the people who say so are either lying or mortgaged their house for a 300 inch monitor and stick their face in it. What a joke.

      A much better model would be to create open standards for games which would allow anyone to create their own interactive objects, AI, scenarios, and the end user could select what they want in their game (murder mystery, zombie invasion, ghosts, surprise disasters, hello kitty...), what setting (Circus Maximus around 40 or 50 BC), and play the way they want. The best reference I could come up with which everyone would know is the Holodeck from Star Trek:TNG. Game companies could even make money by selling prefabbed objects and environments, they just wouldn't have total control of the market.

      But this doesn't make big money for the large companies. Games which players "finish" after a few hours or have to pay ongoing fees make them money. Games which take millions of work-hours to create keep others out of the market. This is optimal for the big players, and the current generation of gamers are primed to want what these companies produce.

  6. It is pitch black. by naz404 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    You have been eaten by a grue.

    ... and in Soviet Russia, grues are likely to be eaten by YOU!!!

    --
    http://www.object404.com
    1. Re:It is pitch black. by Mozk · · Score: 1

      No, they still eat you, just in the light.

      --
      No existe.
    2. Re:It is pitch black. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      IIRC you can actually do that in Kingdom of Loathing.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  7. how i remember text adventures by keeboo · · Score: 4, Funny

    I was a kid and I had a bare knowledge of English language as 2nd language, so it went like:

    "You start off with your parachute snagged on a branch of a mangrove tree, leaving you helplessly dangling high above the jungle floor."
    > north
    > go north
    > down
    > go down
    > climb tree
    > look tree
    > look at tree
    > look parachute
    > objects
    > inventory
    > help
    > shit
    ...
    > untie parachute

    Yeah, sorry if I don't share the same enthusiasm for such games.

    1. Re:how i remember text adventures by Niris · · Score: 1, Redundant

      In the immortal words of many MUDs that are still played today,

      > What?

    2. Re:how i remember text adventures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I shared your pain with some games, even though English is allegedly my first language. I particularly remember one game where you had to use a vacuum cleaner to get rid of a ghost that was blocking a doorway... I was about 11 at the time, had never even heard of ghostbusters, and didn't realise that people in the US called vacuum cleaners "vacuums" which, according to my dictionary, was something with no air in it. I eventually got past that particular hurdle by pausing the game (it was in basic), reading over the code (I was a nerd) in search of relevant keywords and guessing combinations involving everything I could pick up.

      On reflection I suspect reverse engineering this game was more fun than the game itself...

    3. Re:how i remember text adventures by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      The game sucked if it was that specific on how to get the hell down.

      Knowing the language is quite important when it comes to playing a MUD but most get by fine.

      I would attribute some of my knowledge of the language (English is my second language, Norwegian my first) to my use of computers and especially text games. I've clocked close to 18000 hours on a particular mud (lensmoor.org 3500) and enjoy it just as much as I enjoy some graphic intensive games.

      It is all about what you are looking for. Text lends itself to roleplaying games quite well as you can define anything without having to worry about how it will be done graphically.

      *heads back to work to be productive *cough* *

    4. Re:how i remember text adventures by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2, Funny

      > shit ... > untie parachute

      At least you landed into something soft and didn't break your legs, right?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    5. Re:how i remember text adventures by Puff_Of_Hot_Air · · Score: 1

      I had similiar pain with a game called Hugo's House of Horrors (not text based, but the same text input pain). In one of the rooms in the mansion, you open a cupboard to find a funny looking sprite on the ground. I must have tried a 100 different things to figure out what that sprite was. Eventually I looked in the game directory to see a file called "mask.gif". Pick Up Mask. It was a wonderful thing when the click based adventure game (such as lucas arts games), was introduced.

    6. Re:how i remember text adventures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure you learned a lot of the language like that. I always had high marks, thanks to MUD's.

    7. Re:how i remember text adventures by hattig · · Score: 3, Funny

      Most adventure games I played would let you survive the parachute fall, but you would then die whatever you did due to a proliferation of lions, tigers, grues, pits with spikes, native savages and ghosts in the immediate vicinity. Naturally the next 23 times you played the game, you'd try and avoid these, instead of "weave parachute into hangglider using tree branches" "glide to remote golden beach that I missed the description of because I didn't 'look into distance'", etc.

      Others would give you immediate roaming access to 1048823 locations, and no discernible clue as to what you were meant to be doing. Ooh, I've crashed in my spaceship (had no control over that), and now I'm being pestered by a robot. I've picked up everything loose on the planet, but to no avail. ARGH. KILL ROBOT WITH BANANA PICKER.

    8. Re:how i remember text adventures by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well, you'd have to compare these games to the most primitive sort of graphical games to be perfectly fair.

      It may well be that the end of commercial text game development meant that better formulas and design principles appropriate to the medium were never developed. There's no way the limits of language as a game medium have ever been approached by software. What are tabletop RPGs such as Dungeons and Dragons but language based adventure games with a few visual aids?

      I think the problem with text games was that you'd run into a dead end where the designer wanted you to do some particular thing, and if you didn't do it, there was nothing else you could do. Adventure games need to give the player alternatives when he is frustrated. My kids play the Legend of Zelda games, and to my eye they have a lot in common with those early text games. The big difference is that when you get tired of figuring out the puzzle you are working on, you can set it aside and do something else.

      If people continued to pour development money into text games, they'd probably be a lot more open ended and flexible than they were twenty five years ago.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    9. Re:how i remember text adventures by Nimey · · Score: 1

      What's the literal translation for your country's term for "vacuum cleaner"? Just curious.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    10. Re:how i remember text adventures by shippo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That looks like Espionage Island from Artic Computing. It was released initially for the ZX81, then ported to the larger memory ZX Spectrum with no changes - same limited text descriptions in upper case text, limited vocabulary, white text on a black background and so on. Their whole series of games were fairly limited plot-wise, and extremely linear - i.e. just one puzzle to solve at a time for most of the game. So if you got stuck on one puzzle there was no point exploring the rest of the game.

      The only advantage that Artic's games had is that they were quick, having been coded entirely in assembly language. Many other games of that era were written in BASIC, and therefore suffered from having slow parsers and logic engines, with some games taking almost a minute to respond to commands. One software publisher went half-way - they coded the vocabulary parser in assembly, but still had the logic in BASIC.

    11. Re:how i remember text adventures by lymond01 · · Score: 1

      I'm going to guess "hoover".

    12. Re:how i remember text adventures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not the OP but I'm replying just for fun. In Sweden it's called "dammsugare", the literal translation would be "dust sucker".

    13. Re:how i remember text adventures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I much prefer...
      point
      shoot
      point
      shoot
      point
      shoot ...

    14. Re:how i remember text adventures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Sweden it's called "dammsugare", the literal translation would be "dust sucker".

      That's it, I'm calling our vacuum "dust sucker" from now on. That's three kinds of awesome.

  8. Documentary by Pilferer · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am looking forward to this upcoming documentary:

    http://www.getlamp.com/

    by the guy who did "BBS: The Documentary"

    1. Re:Documentary by GMFTatsujin · · Score: 1

      Keep an eye on http://game-central.org/ and their podcasts. Nothing set in stone as far as I know, but they're working on arranging an interview with Jason on exactly this topic.

  9. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by beatbox32 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's the one I remember playing a lot on my C64.. "You wake up. The room is spinning very gently round your head. Or at least it would be if you could see it which you can't." For those interested, you can play it online here: http://www.heavygames.com/hitchhikersguidetothegalaxy/gameframe.asp

    --
    "The purpose of learning is growth, and our minds, unlike our bodies, can continue growing as long as we live." - M.J. A
    1. Re:Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by smchris · · Score: 1

      The one I remember _not_ playing a lot because I never got anywhere. Finished Planetfall.

    2. Re:Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      H2G2 was a game that you had to play with the hint book in your hand. There were a few places where you ended up in the dark and it would say something like 'you can not see, hear, smell, taste or feel anything'. I have no idea how you were meant to work out that you were meant to keep looking until it changed to something like 'you can not see, hear, smell, or feel anything' at which point you had to 'taste dark' and then continue (or use some other sense, if that was the one that disappeared from the list of things you can't do). Similarly, the Babel fish puzzle was crazy; you had to do so many things to get it that it seems crazy to expect people to work them out. You also had to make sure you remembered to feed the dog at the start, or you'd get near the end and be eaten by it.

      I can't help wondering if it was a primitive version of copy protection. Most people who pirated the game didn't have access to the hint book, so they got stuck easily. Unfortunately, I played most of these games on my Psion Series 3 (not H2G2, because it was 150KB and I only had a 128KB flash card), and didn't carry the hint book around with me.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  10. Photopia by garethw · · Score: 1

    I'd heartily recommend Adam Cadre's "Photopia". It's one of the most affecting pieces of fiction of any time I've ever read. http://adamcadre.ac/if.html

    --
    garethw
  11. Let's see... from memory.... by mark-t · · Score: 2, Interesting

    south. east. open window. in. west. get lamp and sword. east. up. light lamp. get all. douse lamp. down. west. move rug. open trapdoor. down. light lamp. north. attack troll with sword. again. again. again. again. get axe.

    --
    File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    1. Re:Let's see... from memory.... by imaginaryelf · · Score: 1

      I always get the egg from the nest up in the tree outside the house first.

    2. Re:Let's see... from memory.... by Psychotria · · Score: 4, Funny

      south. east. open window. in. west. get lamp and sword. east. up. light lamp. get all. douse lamp. down. west. move rug. open trapdoor. down. light lamp. north. attack troll with sword. again. again. again. again. get axe

      Damn you! I've been trying to do this for 20 years and now you've shown me how. You could at least have mentioned "Spoiler Alert".

    3. Re:Let's see... from memory.... by j-stroy · · Score: 3, Funny

      First, I put on my robe and wizard hat.

    4. Re:Let's see... from memory.... by josh61980 · · Score: 1

      I've been playing that on my iPhone recently. Now I know how to scare of the grue that ate me, thank.

  12. Is the an English major in the house? by adolf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If there's an English major in the house: What is it called when an interview consists of one small question, followed by many paragraphs of detailed answer, followed by an unrelated question?

    In other words: Is there any sort of descriptive term for "interview by email" which I can learn, so that I can more aptly describe these non-conversations in the future?

    They have about as much interaction as an interview might if it were conducted by parcel post. While the monologues contained therein may (or may not be) interesting, the whole thing lacks so much spontaneity and fluidity that I might as well be reading a book.

    --
    Kid-proof tablet..
    1. Re:Is the an English major in the house? by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

      A typical Job Interview.

    2. Re:Is the an English major in the house? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What is it called when an interview consists of one small question, followed by many paragraphs of detailed answer, followed by an unrelated question?

      Scripted.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Is the an English major in the house? by kramerd · · Score: 1

      I believe its commonly referred to as /. forums (see ask slashdot).

    4. Re:Is the an English major in the house? by slapout · · Score: 1

      Non-interactive non-fiction?

      --
      Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
    5. Re:Is the an English major in the house? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you prefer reading a book, go to Jimmy Maher's home page and read his excellent book-length 2006 history of IF, "Let's Tell a Story Together." You'll get more detail and be taken closer to present-day IF, without the prose being broken up by the questions you find so tedious. To each his own.

    6. Re:Is the an English major in the house? by HFKap · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with preferring a book to an interview of any kind. On Jimmy Maher's home page you will find his excellent book-length 2006 history of IF, "Let's Tell a Story Together." You'll get even more detail(!) and be taken closer to present-day IF, without the prose being broken up by the questions you find so tedious. To each his own. I'd be curious to know of any interviews by email that you consider to be good reading, showing more "spontaneity and fluidity." Or do you simply think that interview by email is a moronic idea?

  13. Yes and no... by Bragador · · Score: 5, Informative

    Back in the days, and I don't speak from experience, computers were not for everyone so the market was different. Today, most gamers don't have the patience to read a book, even less to think while doing so like you do in an interactive fiction game. Actually, the whole society is like that. So, shiny graphics ARE important today. I showed some Infocom games to some friends since I thought text adventures were a nice idea and when they saw there was no graphics they simply shrugged them off. Well, one did try Zork, and after a few minutes, he thanked me for showing him something he didn't know and never touched these kind of games after that.

    Like Roberta Williams said in 1999:

    Back when I got started, which sounds like ancient history, back then the demographics of people who were into computer games, was totally different, in my opinion, than they are today. Back then, computers were more expensive, which made them more exclusive to people who were maybe at a certain income level, or education level. So the people that played computer games 15 years ago were that type of person. They probably didn't watch television as much, and the instant gratification era hadn't quite grown the way it has lately. I think in the last 5 or 6 years, the demographics have really changed, now this is my opinion, because computers are less expensive so more people can afford them. More "average" people now feel they should own one.

    1. Re:Yes and no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's quite amazing that in a world where more information is available than ever before, that it actually feels like we're going backwards.

      For example, log in to any game that supports text chat. I guarantee the conversations going on at any given point in time will make you want to stab your monitor.

    2. Re:Yes and no... by bertoelcon · · Score: 1

      I would give you that graphics are important now, and it would be as hard to sell a text game as it would to have sell a pure CLI OS. but I really see no reason that should define major gaming. However, I also still think HD video is not half as good as people think it is.

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    3. Re:Yes and no... by Bragador · · Score: 1

      Oh, I do agree that the graphics are not necessary, but people need them for some strange reason. It's the same thing with movies. People will want to watch the movie version of a book instead of reading it, even though the book has more details. Also, people will rent the latest remake instead of watching the old black and white classics.

    4. Re:Yes and no... by solafide · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Dwarf Fortress -- a modern ASCII-graphics game.

    5. Re:Yes and no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the 3am Trade Chat on World of Warcraft is so intriguing, its like slashdot commentary in real time.

    6. Re:Yes and no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      graphics are not necessary, but people need them for some strange reason.

      Are you being sarcastic?

      The reason people prefer graphics over text is because the human visual system is adapted to making sense of scenes full of colorful objects. That's natural. Reading, on the other hand, is not something we're adapted to doing: It's unnatural. We can learn to do it, but it takes far more effort to make sense of a wall of text than it does to make sense of a scene full of people and things. Were we able to look at a page of text and understand it in under a second--just as we can when looking at a scene--reading would be far more popular.

      Another reason IF fell out of favor is that computers are stupid. There may be 1001 ways I could tell you my character does something, but the game will only understand at most one of those ways (maybe two or three if the parser is particularly "advanced"). In contrast, with graphical games, it's far more obvious what parts of the scene can be interacted with, and what one's character is capable of doing, so there's much less guesswork. (Put another way, IF games tend to degenerate into "read the developers mind" puzzles, even though that's rarely what they're going for.)

    7. Re:Yes and no... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      But the literate gamer has not gone away. Yes there are fewer of them in proportion to mainstream gamers, but in reality the numbers are the same, or even greater. The market is out there for these games, someone just needs to take advantage of it.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:Yes and no... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, unless the game author is one of those pixel-pointer types that drives the player nuts. I remember playing one of the Myst games and going nuts because I couldn't get past a part that apparently required you to look in a very particular direction and click on a particular point that wasn't terribly obvious.

    9. Re:Yes and no... by HFKap · · Score: 1

      I don't think there is any question that Interactive Fiction selects out for intelligence. I don't mean that snobbishly, nor do I mean that everyone who plays IF is of necessity brilliant, not do I mean that enjoying IF precludes enjoying really good graphical games. But IF is a form that requires an enjoyment of mental activity, an attraction to carefully crafted language, and a significant attention span. It's not for the hand-eye co-ordination gang nor the crowd whose greatest attraction is eye and ear candy, nor is it meant to be. Those gamers have nothing to complain about - they have plenty of extraordinary fireworks from which to choose in today's commercial gaming world.

  14. Play old textadventures online by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want to try any of the old textadventures, there are several pages that allow you playing the games only with javascript e.g.

    http://z-machine.appspot.com (which was written by me - I admit, this is a shameless plug) or http://parchment.toolness.com/ .

  15. I disagree by aepervius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I used to belong to that demographic long long ago. But with age I simply lost patience and reading too much from a computer screen is tiring. We were young. Now we are at best middle aged, at worst seniors. Most of us do not want or cannot waste as much time on tiring task. Even if the new demographic of young people was coming in, we a bit older would not want to go through that again and again. The myth that now people only accept instant gratification is just a myth. Many of those I.F. were simply cumbersome and unforgivable but since this is all we had, we accepted it. Most people would not willingly eat stale moldy rotten bread if fresh bread is available. You do it only when there is no fresh bread available and you are starving. Same for the first graphic+novel type of adventure like KQ's. We will not willingly go again in that especially eating the cake right off the start breaking down the game.

    Maybe they can revive I.F. as type of ebook. But I doubt it.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:I disagree by hattig · · Score: 1

      Are there interactive eBooks yet of the old Ian Livingstone (and others) pick your own adventure books?

      That might be a nice project actually. The choices are limited, there's no parser hassle, but it's interactive within a story thread.

    2. Re:I disagree by Gulthek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who said it needs reviving? The best IF games have come out in the last few years! Playable on anything digital that even remotely makes sense: from a computer (any reasonable OS) to an iPhone.

    3. Re:I disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like Limbo of the Lost!

    4. Re:I disagree by Beetle+B. · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Many of those I.F. were simply cumbersome and unforgivable but since this is all we had, we accepted it.

      You may not know this, but by today's IF standards, the Infocom games are considered to be quite poor in quality (although few will utter such blasphemy without a lot of modifiers...).

      Everyone agrees that they did have great prose and suspension of disbelief was not at all difficult. That's to their credit.

      But game design? Mediocre at best (again, by today's standards). Each Infocom game I played had a dungeon/maze element that was quite tedious. I suppose it's because I never had the manuals.

      Each Infocom game I played suffered from "I forgot to pick up an item a hundred moves ago and now I can't finish the game, and I don't even know that I can't!". Today, this is just considered poor design. A well designed game will not allow the game to progress, and will provide proper clues to help you figure out what you may be doing wrong.

      Each Infocom game I played had ways to die that a real person in the world of the game has no way of knowing would kill him. That's considered poor design today. There should always be some clue that what you're about to do is dangerous, and dying and restoring shouldn't be the only way to know.

      Some Infocom games I played had this whole "starving to death" notion that thankfully has been deprecated today. They were hard enough already, damn it!

      --
      Beetle B.
    5. Re:I disagree by Hatta · · Score: 1

      reading too much from a computer screen is tiring

      And yet people will read forums for hours.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    6. Re:I disagree by GMFTatsujin · · Score: 1

      To my delight, I recently discovered that the iLiad series of e-book readers will run Gargoyle, which plays many popular IF formats. So you can finally play your interactive fiction on your ebook reader, and the circle is complete.

      Little synchronicities like that are making are harder for me to resist laying out the cash for one of those things. Even if they are cripplingly expensive.

    7. Re:I disagree by Restil · · Score: 1

      There might be no going back, but honestly, I couldn't get enough of the Sierra "Quest" games at the time. I was even trying to use what limited programming skill I had at the time to make my own. I LOVED those games and I kept playing them years after they were obsolete. I was also playing DOOM and DOOM 2 well into the current decade. I wouldn't expect a younger gamer to want to play the older games, no more than I would want to play Pong. However, I think the love and appreciation for the games that are available at any given time surpasses mere acceptance.

      One major difference between the games then and the games now, is that there used to be a lot more of them that I actually had any interest in playing. Many of them I played clear through too, usually without an easily obtainable hint or cheat guide. Now, I'm waiting for the next halflife release and starcraft 2. And I've been waiting for a while. Beyond that, there's really nothing I'm all that interested in. Of course, I'm older now too... less time for games.

      -Restil

      --
      Play with my webcams and lights here
  16. Virtual archeology by Mathinker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There's a guy, Russel Dalenberg, who deals with the "archeology" of the original Adventure game.

    Besides the fact that he had had a great userid ("ged") when he first emailed me for info about a then-unknown version, I always thought he had the ultimately geeky hobby.

  17. And this describes most games today by petes_PoV · · Score: 1
    pretty much all the first person shooting games have this at their core.

    The basics of gaming hasn't changed in over 30 years. Shortcuts, Mindless violence and the feeling of victory when you eventually "win" - which lasts all of 20 seconds until it gives way to the hollow feeling of "well, what now?"

    Yes, there are graphics - which, like any addiction is never enough, is a total money sink and means you're always searching for the next high-point. And sound and vibration feedback and networks. Although these are all just peipheral to the storyline, which sadly has not progressed past new and grosser versions of a gore-fest.

    Back arounf 1981, my boss at the time described the "new" rounds of video games that were coming out as "just another version of 'stomp the spider'". That observation still holds true for the vast majority of titles today. Progress?

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:And this describes most games today by Elrond,+Duke+of+URL · · Score: 4, Insightful

      pretty much all the first person shooting games have this at their core.

      The basics of gaming hasn't changed in over 30 years. Shortcuts, Mindless violence and the feeling of victory when you eventually "win" - which lasts all of 20 seconds until it gives way to the hollow feeling of "well, what now?"

      You really should have picked a better example for your rant, I'm afraid. Just because somebody can do a speed run of Zork doesn't mean that's how you play. First off, Zork is by no means a violent gorefest. It's a game of exploration and treasure hunting. If you play using this minimal set of moves, you've neither truly played the game nor have you achieved a remotely good score.

      The truth is that games have changed considerably in the past 30 years. Sure, there were lousy games back then, just as there are now, but they were an entirely different kind of lousy. Usually they were, in my opinion, of the insanely difficult and un-fun type of lousy. There's a lot less of those these days since insane levels of difficulty cause most gamers to do a 180 right quick.

      --
      Elrond, Duke of URL
      "This is the most fun I've had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"-Sam&Max
    2. Re:And this describes most games today by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

      They're still (mostly) about killing things, destroying things, shooting things. in that respect they have not developed past the basic premise. You vs. things that are out to kill you, unless you kill them first. Sure, there are games like The Sims and sports games which I agree are different and are popular - but the overwhelming majority (not all, just most) of the best-sellers are shoot, chop, kill, gore, weapons, enemies, destruction, targets, fire, explosions ..... and so it goes on. The only thing that differentiates most of these is the level of violence, the quality of the graphics and the amount of hardware you have to throw at them to get them to work acceptably.

      --
      politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  18. Sysadmining with Infocom by Dare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As a newbie sysadmin, I feel I'm living in an Infocom adventure for some reason. Here's a write-up of my work day about a week ago.

  19. Play IF games in your browser with Parchment by Robmonster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'd urge everyone to give Parchment a try :-http://code.google.com/p/parchment/

    Parchment is a project dedicated to running IF games in your browser, and it does so wonderfully. You can even SAVE your progress, and it gives you a bookmarkable URL you can use to resume your game at a later date. That page tells you how to get any Zcode game playable on Parchment, and the page below has links to loads of IF games that have already been made available.

    I'd recommend giving Curses a go, although maybe not if you are completely new to IF.

    http://parchment.toolness.com/

    --
    I have no sig yet I must scream.
    1. Re:Play IF games in your browser with Parchment by HFKap · · Score: 1

      I'd strongly recommend *not* giving Curses a go if you are new to IF, as it is extremely difficult and violates many of the "Player's Bill of Rights" proposed by Graham Nelson, ironically the author of Curses. An extremely quick glance at the games available via Parchment shows that Emily Short's IF Bronze, an re-envisioning of the Beauty and the Beast tale, is available, and that has many helpful featurers designed for the beginner. The area devoted to Bronze on Emily's blog also has some materials a beginner might wish to print.

  20. Not a single mention of MUDs??? by Viol8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All that discussion and not a single mention of MUDs, MOOs or any online multiuser text based adventures! Does the fact that they're running on a remote server and have multiple users somehow exclude them from being designated as text based IF? I think not. If anything they're far more imaginative and far longer player commitment than most single user adventures running on the local machine.

    1. Re:Not a single mention of MUDs??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really developed my interest in programming thanks to LPmud/MudOS programming. It was a great experience, with lots of feedback from other programmers and players. I just wish I could find the sourcecode to my MUD. I think it died in the great hdd crash of '05.

    2. Re:Not a single mention of MUDs??? by Swampcritter · · Score: 1

      I really developed my interest in programming thanks to LPmud/MudOS programming. It was a great experience, with lots of feedback from other programmers and players.



      I still have an old LPmud actually still running...

      Realm of the Magi -- http://rotm.murpe.com _or_ telnet rotm.murpe.com 1501
    3. Re:Not a single mention of MUDs??? by Fritz+T.+Coyote · · Score: 1

      In that case, let me mention the Discworld MUD: http://discworld.atuin.net/lpc/ A strange place where for over 15 years many, many people have been wandering around on the back of a giant turtle.

      --
      http://visualizecommonsense.com/
    4. Re:Not a single mention of MUDs??? by Solus_Emsu · · Score: 1

      I too found this odd, was going to point out the same thing. To this day I still login to the occasional MUD while at work..

    5. Re:Not a single mention of MUDs??? by Dazzadowling · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I can remember whiling away many an hour on MUDs at university... the interaction and vast range of options seemed to really put them apart from the very limited PC games of the day. The great success of things like World of Warcraft today are very firmly based on MUDs, all that WOW has really is some very pretty graphics overlaid on the "interaction stuff in the background". If anything, I would say with some MUDs that there was much more interaction and depth than with modern MMORPGs.

    6. Re:Not a single mention of MUDs??? by HFKap · · Score: 1

      The term "Interactive Fiction" has come to have a very specific definition, as is explained at the very beginning of the article. It does not embrace MUDs, MOOs, etc. It's just a matter of definition, not a comment on the worthiness of MUDs and MOOs. In fact, I think an article on *their* history would be very, very interesting, and I think some fans of that kind of experience should write one.

  21. Here in the UK. by shippo · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here in the UK there were a good number of such games published during the 8-bit micro boom of the early 1980s.

    The first game to really start things going was Melbourne House's The Hobbit which, on some platforms, included crude graphics for some of the locations. The parser for this game was quite complex, allowing the player to pass instructions on to other characters. The other characters in the game also had some form of artificial intelligence, granting them the ability to wader around at random and move things around. Consequentially no two games were ever the same.

    Another significant developer was Level 9 who created huge games using text compression. These were sold for a huge range of platforms.

    Another major development was when Gilsoft developed The Quill, a an adventure game construction kit. This allowed virtually anyone to create a game based around a standard runtime environment. Many games were then released to the market, some so cleverly constructed that major software publishers could pass them on at full price. Later add-ons were created that allowed in-game graphics, basic sound effects and other features. Text compression was eventually added, too.

    1. Re:Here in the UK. by hattig · · Score: 1

      Graphic Adventure Creator was my text adventure creator drug of choice. Quite a few commercial games were made using it as well.

      Lots of people preferred PAW though, when that came out.

    2. Re:Here in the UK. by wjousts · · Score: 1

      I remember Level 9, they made some great games. I remember Knight Orc quite well. It came with a novella that filled in the background to the story.

    3. Re:Here in the UK. by ZipR · · Score: 1

      Level 9 was great. The Snowball series was one of the most vivid/memorable games I've played -- ever. I'm still trying to run away from those Nightingales. I used to order them direct from the UK for my Atari 8-bit, and they'd come in a DVD-type case, though they were on cassette.

    4. Re:Here in the UK. by Dr+Bip · · Score: 1

      And the people at the company were really friendly. Colossal Adventure was a real eye-opener, and was tough enough me to grind out some oily doggeral that pleaded for help (snip: "Into colossal cavern stepped I, if only for my luck to try..."), and post it off. Look, I was only 13. A hand-written note came back within a week along with a photocopied crib-sheet, and a signed greetings card (if memory serves). When, 20+ years later, I visited Mammoth Caves, it was very strange to actually be in a place that had such resonance with my past - a real feeling (briefly) of time having no meaning and all experience being co-present. Didn't see any pirates though.

    5. Re:Here in the UK. by Spit · · Score: 1

      There were many great commercial games which were written in BASIC too: Ket trilogy was enjoyable as was The Pen and The Dark by the late, great Keith Campbell.

      --
      POKE 36879,8
  22. Just telling my girlfriend about text adventures by QuatermassX · · Score: 1

    I'm now in the latter half of my thirties and my girlfriend is in her mid-twenties and I was just rambling on about text adventure games. She looked at me like I had three heads and never heard of such a thing.

    I distinctly remember a trip to a business with computers (and data stored on punch cards) when I was 10-ish and seeing the opening lines from Zork

    A year or two later we bought a TRS-80 Colour Computer (with Extended Basic!) and I learnt to type by spending days and days and days with Pyramid 2000, Madness and the Minotaur, Raaka-Tu, Bedlam ... and went on to enjoy those early "graphical" adventures like the Dallas Quest. I didn't actually play Zork until much, much later.

    It's a shame these sort of interactive fictions passed away after the advent of the CD-ROM and Myst.

    Here's a link to my favourite, Pyramid 2000: http://www.figmentfly.com/pyramid2000/pyramid.html

  23. 3-Kingdoms by Ferret96 · · Score: 1

    Anyone every play the MUD 3-Kingdoms? For it's time it was a great game, had seperate Sci-Fi, Chaos, and Fantasy areas for variety. I used to play a Necromancer.

    1. Re:3-Kingdoms by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      The only MUD I really remember was the MUD at Stacken.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  24. Pun alert by gidds · · Score: 2, Funny

    "The advent of the home computer..."

    Very good, very good...

    --

    Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

  25. L.O.R.D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LORD will never die!
        http://lord.lordlegacy.com/
    Greatest of all BBS games!

  26. OT: Can someone ID this game? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

    Circa 1991, a friend of mine would sit at the same computer and take turns controlling the UI for a game that must have been the one of first to add a UI to the text adventure format as it was such a simple wrapper for an obvious text adventure engine. It's DnD-ish in storyline allowing you to roll up characters with a handful of classes. The UI memorably showed a representation of your direction options like a mouse maze. I can't recall much about details, but you start out with your party in a slave pen and slowly fight your way out where you find a kingdom with continents and cities. As I recall, there was an element of free will rather than scripted adventure as you could wander the map as you saw fit. To me, the game is still a benchmark by which I measure what a leap modern MMOs like WoW made.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    1. Re:OT: Can someone ID this game? by kv9 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Battletoads.

      --
      Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
    2. Re:OT: Can someone ID this game? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      Wow, not even close.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    3. Re:OT: Can someone ID this game? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want to say Darksun....

    4. Re:OT: Can someone ID this game? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some early Ultima game?

  27. The stuff in the box was cool too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I always liked how infocom would stuff your game box with all kinds of fun things(besides the game), planet fall had postcards from all the major areas and a bunch of other stuff in there...

  28. Zyll by AdmiralAl · · Score: 1

    Zyll was my first foray into text adventure games. I remember spending hours at my dad's IBM Sr. Partner staring at the black and green screen trying to figure out where the three items were. I still keep a copy of DOSBox around just in case I want to fire up Zyll again. Such a great game.

  29. point and click killed adventure games by wjousts · · Score: 1

    I do believe that point and click is what really killed adventure games. They simplified the game play down to a handful of verbs (get, look at, push, pull, use) which meant that if you got stuck all you had to do is try every verb on every object you could click on (including inventory) until something happened. As a result the games became way too easy. Some games don't even bother with a handful of verbs and instead you just click on stuff and something happens or not.

    I mean, I loved the new Sam & Max adventures from Telltale, but each episode is at most 3-4 hours long!

    Of course, I don't know that struggling with an obtuse parser was necessarily better, because it's frustrating when you're not sure if what you just tried didn't work because it's wrong, or because you just phrased it incorrectly. Example:

    Tie rope to whatsit

    - You can't do that

    Attach rope to whatsit

    - I don't know how to "attach" something

    Use rope with whatsit

    - You can't use the rope that way

    Tie whatsit to rope

    -You tie the whatsit with the rope

    ARRRRGGGGG!!!!!

    1. Re: point and click killed adventure games by PegamooseG · · Score: 1

      I have not tried any of the TellTale games, but from what I've seen, they look very entertaining.

      One of my favorite point-and-click games of this style was "Day of the Tentacle". Even though the actions were limited, you still had a lot of combinations when doing a trial-and-error approach to solving the puzzles. Even though the interface is point-and-click, you still need to hold object X and apply it to other object Y. X times Y can lead to tons of things to try.

      --
      Urban Legions
    2. Re: point and click killed adventure games by Fritz+T.+Coyote · · Score: 1

      The downside of text games is when the puzzles devolve into Guess The Verb. I remember using a hex-reader to scan the code to find the ascii text literals in games when I got tired of trying to guess what obscure verb the programmer had come up with.

      --
      http://visualizecommonsense.com/
    3. Re: point and click killed adventure games by wjousts · · Score: 1

      Well, exactly, but some of the later games had much more expressive parsers so it was less of a problem. But, the point is the puzzles were harder because you couldn't just say use X with Y (as you do in most point-and-clicks), you had to actually know how X and Y would be used together.

    4. Re: point and click killed adventure games by wjousts · · Score: 1

      I've only played the two seasons of Sam and Max and they were entertaining, just too short and too easy. I loved the games, but it seems like a lot of money to drop for only a few hours of entertainment.

      Also, I agree on DotT. That was a really good game and I remember it had some really interesting puzzles using the time travel aspects.

  30. Too soon... by FatalTourist · · Score: 1

    Still getting over Floyd. :'(

    --


    Escape Pod Films: Sketch Comedy and Web Series
    1. Re:Too soon... by Specter · · Score: 1

      Hey, I've got an access card exactly like that one!

      Wanna play hucka-bucka beanstalk?

  31. Re:Just telling my girlfriend about text adventure by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    It's a shame these sort of interactive fictions passed away after the advent of the CD-ROM and Myst.

    Not true, I bought most of the infocom selection on CD.

  32. Re:Just telling my girlfriend about text adventure by grub · · Score: 1


    I'm now in the latter half of my thirties and my girlfriend is in her mid-twenties and I was just rambling on about text adventure games. She looked at me like I had three heads and never heard of such a thing.

    I guess you have to fill the time when waiting for the Viagra to kick in. :)

    .

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  33. Re:Just telling my girlfriend about text adventure by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    The Lost Treasures of Infocomm boxed sets were great. A big box with a few disks (later CDs), a big printed book of all of the manuals, another big book of all of the hint books, and fold-out maps for all of the games. Unfortunately, the one I bought was on floppy disk, and I haven't owned a floppy drive for several years, so I can't get at them anymore. I should probably get a USB floppy drive and see how many of my old floppies still work.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  34. Now I vaguely remember that box set by QuatermassX · · Score: 1

    I do remember that box set, though I'm not sure it was ever released for System 7 or OS 8 on the Mac. One of the marvellous things about emulators is playing all these games in the browser and recapturing a little bit of how we used to interact with computers.

    1. Re:Now I vaguely remember that box set by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      It was released for DOS, but you just needed an Infocom interpreter to use it on your platform of choice. I used the game files on my Psion Series 3.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  35. Re:how about a nice . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Chat with Lisa

    Hello
    What is your name?

  36. Inform by PegamooseG · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is an excellent tool for writing IF that a friend brought to my attention a while back. It's called Inform 7.

    I have tinkered with it a little bit, and it makes writing IF much easier. It takes out most of the programming skills, and focuses on a pseudo-natrual English way of writing the game.

    --
    Urban Legions
  37. CoCo! by whitroth · · Score: 1

    Nobody ever remembers the RadShack CoCo. I had one that I bought around '80 or '81, and found a text adventure game - I don't remember the name - where one started out in a town at a market. The best thing to buy there was a shovel: you could dig for treasure... and beat off bandits on the road, lions in the jungle, sharks and pirates in the ocean, and, if you got to the end, meteors in outer space....

                mark

  38. Talengard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I could never slay the dragon though. I had hacked the game and given myself armor and a sword and shield with ungodly high hit points, but alas,

    "You find a dragon, dragon breathes fire, you are dead. "

    Or something along those lines, damn dragons.

  39. Re:Just telling my girlfriend about text adventure by Hobophile · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's a shame these sort of interactive fictions passed away after the advent of the CD-ROM and Myst.

    You should look into some of the newer, highly rated works at IFDB. There is a small but active community still developing these games, and each year sees one or two new gems that rival or surpass the most popular efforts of the Infocom era. The best days of the format may well be ahead of us.

  40. Frotz for iPhone! by avatar139 · · Score: 1

    When Advent was ported to the iTunes application store a while back I first discovered the magic of text adventures. Eventually I graduated to Frotz and since then I have spent the majority of my time during business meetings playing it nonstop! It's good fun and at the same time so insanely frustrating that it makes me want to kill my co-workers (even more than usual that is) which as we all know are the typical signs of any great iPhone application! Check it out here: http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=287653015&mt=8

    --
    I'm honest enough to admit I lie to myself.
  41. Re:Just telling my girlfriend about text adventure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm now in the latter half of my thirties and my girlfriend is in her mid-twenties and I was just rambling on about text adventure games...

  42. New age of text adventures by Taulin · · Score: 1

    As one who has spent many MANY hours, mostly wasted, playing text adventures (also mostly on the TRS80), I have to say I am happy of the evolution text adventures have taken. Sierra did their thing, but there are now really huge browser based games now like UrbanLegions.net and KoL. I just wonder if any chronological documentaries will mention these or not.

  43. "very dark"? Sacrilege? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you are likely to be eaten by a grue then it is pitch black, not "very dark".