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OLED Breakthrough Yields 75% More Efficient Lights

Mike writes "Researchers at Korea's Advanced Institute of Science and Technology recently announced a breakthrough in OLED technology that reduces the ultra-thin lights' energy consumption by 75%. The discovery hinges upon a new method of creating 'surface plasmon enhanced' organic light emitting diodes that boast 1.75 times increased emission rates and double the light intensity." OLEDnet notes: "The finding was published in the April issue of Applied Physics Letters and the June 25 issue of Optics Express. It will be also featured as the research highlight of the August issue of Nature Photonics and Virtual Journal of Ultrafast Science."

151 comments

  1. You know what is going to happen... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm just going to buy lights that are 75% brighter.

    1. Re:You know what is going to happen... by Mia'cova · · Score: 1

      400%....

    2. Re:You know what is going to happen... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      People do seem to like their brightness. Too often, I see them have their TVs, monitors and devices set so bright that it even screws up the color quality.

  2. Sounds good but... by GreenTech11 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Sounds good, and very likely is, but how much energy is lost in generating the vacuum required to give these lights the extra efficiency? The chances are the light is still more efficient even after taking in the production process.Besides, they look so damn cool! That is awesome

    --
    Laughter is the best medicine, except if you have a broken rib.
    1. Re:Sounds good but... by MyLongNickName · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yup, because sucking out some air requires more energy than leaving a light on for thousands of hours...

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    2. Re:Sounds good but... by KibibyteBrain · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Many vapor and physical deposition processes in semiconductor manufacture take place in a high vacuum. Making OLEDs probably already requires a vacuum at one stage for such deposition. I would say the efficiency issues with this process hinge on cost, not energy, and even that seems quite manageable.

    3. Re:Sounds good but... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It would certainly be modestly more expensive than an otherwise equivalent process that doesn't require a high vacuum step; but vacuum deposition isn't exactly exotic. All sorts of surface metalizing processes use it.

      Aside from that, there are applications(actually quite a lot of them) where being able to consume less energy at the point of use, even if you consume more energy overall, is quite valuable. For any "off grid" application(whether permanent, like your survivalist bunker in Montana, or temporary, like your macbook during a trip to starbucks) what really matters is how much energy your device is using now not how much energy it took to create. For that matter, any rechargeable battery is highly wasteful, since a fair bit of the charge energy will just be lost as heat; but having the energy where you need it is obviously valuable. This is the same reason why solar panels became valuable for specific off grid applications well before they reached the break-even point for lifetime energy cost vs. energy production.

    4. Re:Sounds good but... by b4upoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sounds like a great new technology but I get frustrated when product seems to take forever to get to market.

    5. Re:Sounds good but... by just+fiddling+around · · Score: 3, Informative

      One of the major reasons why OLEDs are so interesting is because they are *not* vacuum-deposited, but deposited with ink-jet or screen printing techniques.

      Of course, 75% reduction of the already-small power consumption of OLEDs is probably worth it for mobile apps.

      --
      You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
    6. Re:Sounds good but... by proc_tarry · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We will always consume the most amount of energy we can afford. This means power savings from OLEDs will only contribute to having more OLEDs, and total power consumption will remain the same.

      Fundamental equation: Life = Energy. If we as a species don't find a way to regulate energy consumption, Mother Nature will.

    7. Re:Sounds good but... by hewest · · Score: 0

      There is a nearly limitless amount of energy, the planet has been collecting energy from the sun. Mother nature has figured out how to capture, store and use energy in a clean and fairly efficient way. I don't plan on stopping using energy, I just want to have a system that captures, stores and uses energy cleanly and more efficiently then we currently do.

      This notion that energy is a limited commodity is a waste of my time, which is a limited commodity.

    8. Re:Sounds good but... by John+Whitley · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sounds like a great new technology but I get frustrated when product seems to take forever to get to market.

      It's important to keep perspective on news items like this as "research results" rather than "products." That misunderstanding takes the fun out of a great spectator sport. ;-) Sometimes results out of the lab are immediately applicable, more often they take a quite a number of years to work out the practical kinks. E.g. this recent article on silicon for photo detectors in Tech Review has a good examples of the kinds of problems researchers have to muddle through on the way from breakthrough to reality. It doesn't help that popular tech reporting (and some researchers) love to add 'hooks' of tantalizing applications for new work... but for all those lofty dreams it's still just a research result.

      In short, it's best not to hitch one's proverbial horse to any one of these announcements. Instead, read a lot of them to get a good sense of where technology is headed and where academia and industry are investing their efforts.

    9. Re:Sounds good but... by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 1

      Yup, because sucking out some air requires more energy than leaving a light on for thousands of hours...

      I always turn off my lights when I vaccuum. It helps...

      --
      I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
    10. Re:Sounds good but... by gandhi_2 · · Score: 2, Informative
      Sometimes referred to as waste homeostasis or the rebound effect.

      I have a hybrid, so no more carpooling for me, suckers!

    11. Re:Sounds good but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a bit over dramatic don't you think?

      Mother natures cap on energy creation and consumption is pretty high I would think. I'm staring up at one gigantic natural fusion reaction right now and we already know how to produce way more energy than we can consume ever from some smallest particles known.

      You might be half right on consumption will remain the same, I'd argue we'll just consume more.

    12. Re:Sounds good but... by wealthychef · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Sometimes results out of the lab are immediately applicable, more often they take a quite a number of years to work out the practical kinks

      Besides being +1 insightful, you can replace "sometimes" with "almost never", especially on Slashdot technologies. I honestly cannot remember a SINGLE technology predicted here that I can actually buy yet. But I've only been here a few years.

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    13. Re:Sounds good but... by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Umm..standard filament light bulbs operate in a vacuum. The key is sealing it after you make it.

    14. Re:Sounds good but... by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      I always take my clothes off when I vacuum. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    15. Re:Sounds good but... by metaforest · · Score: 1

      I'd say that depends on what you are doing with the utility hose.

    16. Re:Sounds good but... by spage · · Score: 1

      We will always consume the most amount of energy we can afford.

      Who's "we"? Rather, I spend the most I can afford on consuming less energy, and I'm not alone. Once you have an easy-to-read electricity meter in full view you change your behavior; I stopped lighting my garden and most of my house once I realized how much even my low-voltage and fluorescent fixtures consume. And I bet Prius drivers ride bicycles more than SUV owners. Some people give a damn, join the club.

      --
      =S
    17. Re:Sounds good but... by ebuck · · Score: 1

      So you don't know how much energy it takes to make a vacuum, but you pose that it might be more than the light will save? This kind of lazy false tree-hugging disappoints those who care and scares off those who don't.

      Air pressure is roughly 15 PSI at sea level. The energy required to create a vacuum is roughly the energy needed to lift 15 pounds from the bottom of your vacuum vessel to the top of the vacuum vessel. Naturally, the exact amount of energy depends on the size of the vessel, and you'll probably have to use a bit more due to mechanical inefficiencies in the apparatus moving the air out.

      If you can't bother to calculate something, then don't pose it as a reason it's less efficient overall.

    18. Re:Sounds good but... by proc_tarry · · Score: 1

      The money you save by behaving more energy efficient will be used for something else, some other form of consumption. That consumption requires energy consumed by those that produced your consumption.

      Really, the best way you can reduce your energy footprint (other than killing yourself) is to quit your job and become a subsistence farmer in a temperate climate where you don't need energy for warmth.

      Revised fundamental equation: Energy = Life * Social Complexity

  3. News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by BlueKitties · · Score: 0, Troll

    I'll be honest, I haven't read much into this, but I hope this isn't like some of those other "eco friendly" solutions which involve, essentially, ecological whaling. As a rule of thumb, a 'green' product should be 'green' to mass produce. -- Any chance anyone here can verify how these can be mass produced?

    --
    "Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
    1. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by jameskojiro · · Score: 4, Funny

      If we need to use whales for this then that is fine as long as we start a breeding program to accelerate the replacement of the culled whales. Maybe we could harvest eggs and sperm from harpooned whales, then create embryos and mature them in an artificial uterus, then release them back out to nature to grow where they could be harpooned and the cycle would continue and we could increase the number of whales in the oceans exponentially.

      I think we should name the company Mobil-Dick.

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    2. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would think the usefulness of these OLEDs would be more for brighter (daylight readable) electronic displays than for hugging trees and crunching granola. Eco friendliness is not the only reason to conserve power; consider for example extended battery life as a more tangible benefit.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    3. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sorry, I already have a company called Mobil-Dick and it usually has nothing to do with animals.

    4. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Vacuum deposition is a reasonably common industrial process. Not absolutely trivial(high-vacuum pumps aren't cheap, and I'm sure maintaining the seals on a high-throughput system with a vacuum stage is a pain in the ass); but hardly more difficult than any of the other tricky processes that we run in massive volume every day.

    5. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by thms · · Score: 2, Interesting

      OLEDs might be the future for most displays (has the problem of a low blue life span been solved yet?), however when it comes to competing with direct sunlight all they can do is try to outshine it - not a competition any technology so far has won.

      Transreflective LCDs, where the backlight transmits its own light but also reflects incoming light, are much better solution there. And for mostly static displays of course ePaper which will hopefully get faster pixel switching time and colour in the future.

    6. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by MrNaz · · Score: 4, Informative

      I can tell you that maintaining a high vacuum seal is simple. Orings are amazing things, and the physics that goes along with them is astonishing. That unassuming little black ring really is quite amazing. Forget holding a vacuum; properly designed, they can stand up to 100x atmospheric pressure against a total vacuum and not break a sweat. I'm a scuba diver, and the orings on my scuba tank yoke valve hold up 200 bar, which makes the pressure difference between normal air pressure and a vacuum look like the breath exhaled from the mouth of a sleeping newborn.

      --
      I hate printers.
    7. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... yet

    8. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by moondawg14 · · Score: 1

      +12 "usually" FTW!

    9. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by rift321 · · Score: 1

      I wish everyone thought like you. I love creative engineering solutions.

    10. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by tuxgeek · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why do we always return to picking on the whales? What did the whales ever do to warrant this? Whales are cool!
      I say lets replace all usage of whale blubber to using people blubber instead. There are plenty of useless people wandering about everywhere. A few here and there won't be missed. We can start with rounding some up in the halls of congress.

      Soylent Green anyone?

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    11. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you want to do with engine oil in your spare time is none of our business.

    12. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I looked into this, but unfortunately the average obese stretch-pants-wearing Walmart shopper will only fuel my SUV for a week or so.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    13. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, the American population is hard at work evolving into land-whales. Problem solved!

    14. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by hab136 · · Score: 1

      I say lets replace all usage of whale blubber to using people blubber instead. There are plenty of useless people wandering about everywhere. A few here and there won't be missed. We can start with rounding some up in the halls of congress.

      You don't have to kill them, just give them all free liposuction. Win-win.

    15. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Same here. I perform vacuum deposition on a regular basis. Every time I hoover my room, I deposit the vacuum back into the closet.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    16. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      That reminds me of the Futurama episode where they get dragged underwater in their ship (Lost City of Atlanta, maybe?)

      Professor: "We're at 200 atmospheres of pressure!" (forgot the exact number)
      Fry: "How many atmospheres is this ship designed to withstand?"
      Professor: "Somewhere between 0 and 1!"

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    17. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can tell you that maintaining a high vacuum seal is simple.

      Such was her utterance.

    18. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by delt0r · · Score: 1

      Whales just taste better!

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    19. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by BlueParrot · · Score: 4, Informative

      Forget holding a vacuum; properly designed, they can stand up to 100x atmospheric pressure against a total vacuum and not break a sweat.

      That's all well and good but you're not dealing with a setup where a single dust spec will ruin everything. Ultra high vacuum systems don't merely need to hold the pressure, they need to ensure that nothing ( not even slightly too many helium atoms ) can diffuse into the system. To get a basic idea of what is needed of these systems, leaving fingerprints is an absolute no-go since the low pressure will cause the water to evaporate contaminating your setup. Also forget o-rings made out of rubber or any other polymer based material. They are too porous and allow stuff to diffuse through them. The o-rings used in practice for helium tight vacuum systems will be made of a metal alloy that has been carefully picked to be soft enough that you can squeeze it slightly (but not too much ).

      Essentially while your scuba gear may be holding a very large pressure that's not quite the same thing as ensuring that it does not have a single atomic scale leak. It's a bit like comparing a fog-horn to a powerful amplifier and then proclaiming the amplifier must be primitive since the foghorn is louder.

    20. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think we should name the company Mobil-Dick.

      Doesn't that company already exist?

      ...Never mind, I was thinking of Bang Bus

    21. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vacuum deposition is used for metallizing CDs and DVDs but also metallizing the plastic of your bag of potato chips.

      OLEDs as expensive as cheap plastic packaging, oh the horror!

    22. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by ebuck · · Score: 1

      Ok, I shouldn't but I'll bite.

      The chance for ecological whaling passed a long time ago, when people decided that it wasn't important to kill whales at a rate lower than their reproduction rate.

      Now, due to the errors of the past, we are left with the alternative to stop whaling altogether, or have no whales in the future. Most sound minded people realize that having no whales in the future means whaling will stop altogether, so it's a matter of stopping whaling either way. I vote we stop whaling now, so the species can repopulate and ecological whaling will be a possibility in the future.

      The whalers don't want to know what the whale reproduction rate is, and they don't want to be limited to harvesting at a very low rate. To them it's money in the ocean, and they want to pull it all out faster than their competing whalers.

    23. Re:News at 11, new eco friendly whale oil OLEDs. by tuxgeek · · Score: 1

      a fueled SUV for 1 week on only 1 Walmart shopper is not bad at all
      you just return each week for a refill
      there's a never ending supply and they will make more as needed
      just pass out some larry the cable guy dvd's and before long there will be thousands for the harvest

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
  4. Cooled OLED? by PatLam · · Score: 0

    Now combine it with the new cooled LED technologie and you got a cooled OLED with less energy consumption and more efficienty.

  5. The biggest plus is missing... by shacky003 · · Score: 1

    I'll be the first of the many here at /. to cry out "Bigger, Brighter, PORN!" as a single tear forms...

    1. Re:The biggest plus is missing... by BlueKitties · · Score: 2, Funny

      I have mine hooked up to a 65" 1080p DLP TV in my living room. Unfortunately, I'm always afraid someone driving by will look through the blinds. Hehehe...

      --
      "Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
    2. Re:The biggest plus is missing... by shacky003 · · Score: 1

      with that setup, I would think you wouldn't need to worry about someone looking through the blinds - you'd be worried about still images being burned into the blinds themselves.. lol

    3. Re:The biggest plus is missing... by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      I have mine hooked up to a 65" 1080p DLP TV in my living room.

      eeew, a 34dpi screen. What low resolution.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
  6. 43% less power, you mean by JasperKlewer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The lights radiate 75% more energy. That means a reduction of power of 1 - (1/1.75) = 43%, right?

    1. Re:43% less power, you mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, thought so too.

    2. Re:43% less power, you mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      kdawson, you shouldn't be so touchy.

    3. Re:43% less power, you mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah the article makes inconsistent statments. It looks like a 50% reduction in energy consumption, or 100% increase in efficiency ("continuous wave PL results showed a twofold enhanced intensity").

  7. Journal of Ultrafast Science by goobermaster · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now _that_ is a cool name for a scientific journal. I can imagine reading it now...

    [Me]: Wow, OLED's use 75% less energy now!
    -turns pages-
    [Me]: Oh, fusion! That was fast!

    1. Re:Journal of Ultrafast Science by drizek · · Score: 1

      It is so fast they can't even print it. It has to stay as a virtual journal because by the time they cut the tree down it is already obsolete.

    2. Re:Journal of Ultrafast Science by omnichad · · Score: 1

      So fast, the latest issue personally delivered by ninjas, wherever you are - a few hours after you get the last one.

  8. Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by holmstar · · Score: 3, Funny

    And we're one step closer to animated cereal boxes...

    Oh joy.

    1. Re:Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The bad always comes with the good. I mean, would you really throw away internet message boards just because they enable hipster whining?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by shacky003 · · Score: 1

      Just a little bit longer for the cross-marketing to kick in..
      Mommy, why is the Special K flashing an ad for tampons?

      I'll bet the farm something like that is in the not-so-distant future..

    3. Re:Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by MyLongNickName · · Score: 1

      Mommy, why is the Special K flashing an ad for tampons?

      Bloody hell...

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    4. Re:Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by holmstar · · Score: 1

      Oh come on, it isn't off-topic. reduced power consumption means that a smaller (cheaper) battery can be used to power it. Thus along with other developments (didn't I hear about a roll to roll oled screen manufacturing process a while back?) this could certainly lead to animated packaging... but before that, probably video greeting cards.

    5. Re:Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      Big. Fat. Yes.

      I got along just fine with usenet, thank you very much. Internet forums have increased the volume and decreased the useful content of the dialog that occurs online.

      --
      I hate printers.
    6. Re:Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by snspdaarf · · Score: 1

      Could be worse. They could be flashing an ad for Mobil-Dick.

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
    7. Re:Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Broadly speaking, usenet is an internet message board.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    8. Re:Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by red_dragon · · Score: 1

      Mommy, why is the Special K flashing an ad for tampons?

      Bloody hell...

      And how!

      --
      In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
    9. Re:Mommy! I want some Co Co Puffs! by ChefInnocent · · Score: 1

      I haven't any mod points today, but having wipe down my monitor and keyboard, I would have moded you +1 Funny.

  9. Compared to what? by sunking2 · · Score: 1

    Previous oleds (of which I have no idea how those compare to a standard bulb), or a standard bulb or ???? How does this compare to a standard 75w bulb?

  10. But how long do they last? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    OLEDs have traditionally had very short life spans compared to other display technologies. Does the 'surfance plasmon enhanced' (SPE) device fair any better?

    1. Re:But how long do they last? by f8l_0e · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Indeed the TFA mentioned nothing. I had the same thought as you, specifically regarding blue OLED. They have the shortest lifespan. I would figure though, if they are 75% more efficient, that mean far less energy being pumped through the device and therefore (though possibly incorrect) less strain on the organic structure and slower breakdown.

    2. Re:But how long do they last? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      I've heard that blue is now rated for 30k hours before they hit half brightness. Not so great for continuous lighting, but great for occasional lighting, monitors and TVs. If it is the intensity that hurts, hopefully they'll put in some brightness limiters to stave off premature death from users that just max out the brightness, I don't know why, do most people have glaucoma?

  11. bah. by apodyopsis · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Give me a wall screen TV or a whole ceiling panal light and I'll be impressed.

    It has no real purpose unless somebody sells something from it...

    1. Re:bah. by shacky003 · · Score: 1

      This could easily add hours of battery life to laptops in the future..

    2. Re:bah. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    3. Re:bah. by hattig · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I want large (metre square) wall and ceiling lights to replace the point light sources with lampshades that I never like I currently use. That, and a dimmer function...

    4. Re:bah. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A ceiling / wall length OLED lighting system would be awesome! You could customize your light pools to be directly over furniture. Move your furniture, your light could move with it without rewiring. You could also customize the color or "warmth" of the light. And if you are one for dance parties, a music visualization program would rock on this kind of display. #grin#

  12. That's all well and good... by mark-t · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But what *I'd* really like to see is some real advancement in photon-reflective display technology rather than emissive. Our eyes are evolved to primarily observe light reflected _OFF_ of other objects, not photons flung straight into our eyes from some source, and in my experience it is *FAR* easier to observe something for an extended period of time that is being lit by surrounding light than it is to study something that produces its own. I think it may have something to do with pupil dilation... but I'm not sure.

    Now of course, I know there's electronic paper, which I think is awesome, but what I think would be cooler is if A) color were practical, and B) the display could be updated in real-time, at no less than several dozen times per second, making full-fledged animation possible.

    1. Re:That's all well and good... by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's not going to be a big difference between a photon flung straight into your eyes and one that's reflected off something.

      A red photon of X wavelength of the same energy will still be perceived the same whether it was reflected or not.

      Now the difference could be in the spectrum.

      The light from LEDs or CRT phosphors are more likely to be rather "narrow band" in spectrum. Basically the colours are created by having 3 narrow "mountains" of differing heights corresponding to Red, Green and Blue.

      Whereas white light (or light from blackbody sources) reflecting off various stuff is more likely to generate wider "mountains".

      I'm not sure if this will cause a perceivable difference in the generated image on screens. But I'm pretty sure there's a difference if you use the light for illuminating stuff e.g. a very narrow band red pigment lit by a real white light source will appear red, but could appear black under "white" light that's generated by red+green+blue LEDs (which is one of the reasons why white LED flashlights use phosphors).

      --
    2. Re:That's all well and good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes because those emitted photons are of much lower quality then the reflected kind.

    3. Re:That's all well and good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    4. Re:That's all well and good... by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      There's not going to be a big difference between a photon flung straight into your eyes and one that's reflected off something.

      Perhaps, but until you can prove it, I have an awesome idea for something to sell on late-night infomercials!

    5. Re:That's all well and good... by deroby · · Score: 1

      The spectrum might be in there for some reason, although IMHO when reading a book, it's pretty much black text on a monochrome piece of paper that I'm looking at anyway.

      Technically there indeed won't be much difference whether the photon was sent directly or indirectly into the eye, but I think the difference in perception here comes from what's going on *around* the screen.
      Eg. when a cloud passes by, the surrounding light-level diminishes by a factor x, your eyes adapt (slightly) to the overall changed condition by opening your retina and as a result the non-cloud-affected-screen-light seems to have gone up in light-"volume" by a factor x/n, where n is probably related to the surface of your screen vs your whole field of view. I wouldn't be surprised that when using 'reflection-based' screens, this goes much easier on the eye as the amount of photons hitting the eye-nerves is much more stable than with constant (overly-bright) back-lit screens.

      PS: yes, my laptop has an 'Ambient Light Sensor', but FOR CRYING OUT LOUD it only works when I'm on battery power (**), and frankly I think it's a bit coarse in reacting to changing conditions anyway for the times I do get the chance to use it.

      **: Does *anybody* know how to enable the damned thing when running on outlet power ? (= +90% of the time I'm using my computer) [Dell Latitude D830]
      => I'd be even extremely gratefull if someone could point me to a way to set the brightness in 'smaller steps' than is currently possible with Fn+Up/Down. For me, full brightness is too bright, but one notch below is in fact too dim already. When running on batteries, I can use a slidebar to set the maximum brightness the ALS should use, and that slidebar allows for much, much finer control !!

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    6. Re:That's all well and good... by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      Ever seen a good old paper-white grayscale CRT?

      Simply adjust your monitor to suit - it aint that hard (except of course many LCDs have very poor spectra..)

      A lot of people run their monitor eye-burningly bright, then complain of eye strain - a book doesnt actually have that much contrast!

    7. Re:That's all well and good... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > I'd be even extremely gratefull if someone could point me to a way to set the brightness in 'smaller steps' than is currently possible with Fn+Up/Down.

      Try sunglasses. But note that polarized ones might give you problems with LCDs.

      --
    8. Re:That's all well and good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dialated pupils are wider so the ability of your eye (or glasses) to focus the image matters much more. When you go outside and light is bright, the small pupil means focusing is less important (an infinitesimally small pinhole pupil needs no focusing at all). So maybe you just need better glasses/contacts to see in dim light. Alternatively you can up the background light in your room, as looking at a bright LCD in a dim room is going to be uncomfortable. Printed text is also generally much higher resolution and closer to your face than any screen. I get the feeling that typical LCD dpi aren't good enough to make a convincing white color as the eye picks out individual RGB elements.. at least it looks a bit grainy to me.

    9. Re:That's all well and good... by eth1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's a huge difference... The reflected light increases proportionately to ambient light, so the display won't get washed out by bright light.

    10. Re:That's all well and good... by deroby · · Score: 1

      Not sure whether you're being funny or not =),
      but I do have considered digging out that 'coated piece of perspex' I used to have hanging in front of my Amiga monitor... It sort of increased contrast, reduced glare and supposedly helped against flicker. Problem is, once I open up that treasure-chest I'll be wanting to get my Amiga(s) back online etc and before you know it I'll have lost days if not weeks purely on nostalgia. (**)

      (** wonder if I'd get SPOT back online somehow.. Anyway, most likely the hard-disks will refuse to spin up after 11 years of just sitting there. Ohh man 120Mb full of demo and mod-tracker goodness, why oh why did you make think about that =)

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    11. Re:That's all well and good... by evilviper · · Score: 1

      A red photon of X wavelength of the same energy will still be perceived the same whether it was reflected or not.

      Expect for the fact that you're utterly and totally wrong...

      "The naked human eye is weakly sensitive to polarization, [...] with practice one can learn to detect polarized light with the naked eye." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarized#Unpolarized_light

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    12. Re:That's all well and good... by nilgiri · · Score: 1

      Yes, that would be cool, but I think you are missing the bigger picture. Yes, OLEDs will be used for displays (and already are if you have more dollars than sense), but the end game is general lighting. They were already more efficient than LEDs, which can be more efficient than CFLs depending on how they get their DC current, and OLEDs can be screen printed. I think ink jets can be used to make them as well, but I'm not sure. Either way, once they ramp up production, you can buy the most efficient lighting in the world (in both end use and manufacture) for a fraction of the cost of old incandescents, with a whole bunch more features. You buy it by the role, cut it to fit the shape you want, attach a dimmer and maybe a color controller. Heck, if you want you can connect the color controller to a color sensor so the light coming from OLED poster matches the outdoor light: a little yellow at dawn and dust, a little blue at noon, and fading between all day to match. THAT could do your peepers and mood a lot of good.

    13. Re:That's all well and good... by gordyf · · Score: 1

      How is that "utterly and totally wrong"? The eye is extremely weakly sensitive to polarized light, producing an extremely faint effect that requires practice and concentration to see. Try not to overreact.

    14. Re:That's all well and good... by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Also the human eye can only detect polarization of blue light, so given that the example was of a red photon it is absolutely correct that a human could not detect any difference in polarization.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    15. Re:That's all well and good... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or glare blind you in dim lighting.

  13. It's just twice the light output by vojtech · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's just 75% increased emission rate, not 75% less energy. Continuous wave photoluminiscence doubles, though, according to the article. 75% more efficient would've been four times the output. So not THAT great, but still rather awesome.

    1. Re:It's just twice the light output by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

      for the lay person, you can still get the same brightness for less energy consumed though poindexter!

      --
      They're using their grammar skills there.
    2. Re:It's just twice the light output by n30na · · Score: 1

      ...but still not 4x it

    3. Re:It's just twice the light output by ahecht · · Score: 1

      I was just going to post that. Assuming power consumption/light output is linear, a 1.75 increase in luminosity is equivalent to a 42.9% reduction in power since (1.75-1)/1.75 = .429

    4. Re:It's just twice the light output by ckthorp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Isn't "75% more efficient" only 75% more output? Efficiency is usually listed as lm/W which clearly would indicate 75% more efficient is 75% more lumens. On the other hand, "75% less energy" is 4 times the efficiency.

    5. Re:It's just twice the light output by MagicM · · Score: 1

      So not THAT great, but still rather awesome.

      Really?

      const double good = 100.0;
      const double great = 150.0;
      const double awesome = 300.0;

      const double THAT = 1.5;
      const double rather = 0.7;

      THAT * great > rather * awesome
      1.5 * 150 > 0.7 * 300
      225 > 210

      Oh cool, I guess it does work out. Nice.

    6. Re:It's just twice the light output by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      Sounds like it emits 75% more of that "Efficient Light" that it produces.

      I'm just saying, I could see how the statement could be reduced to something ambiguous.

  14. two possible improvements by elashish14 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Many methods for organic device deposition make use of inkjet printing which is extremely low-cost and easy to do (I'm guessing roughly several square miles per day).

    They're using silver nanoparticles. Silver isn't cheap, but in that quantity it's not a big deal. Possible improvements to this method include using a different nanoparticle material (but silver is the best for surface plasmon effects, except for maybe gold) and incorporating inkjet printing to avoid high-cost vacuum environments. I don't think an inkjet deposition method would interfere with surface plasmon interactions on the nanoparticles so we should still see good efficiency.

    TFA didn't mention lifetime, and I figure that it's not a huge issue anymore for OLEDs. Another big advantage with using silver is that it isn't susceptible to photocorrosion (silver oxides do not form readily).

    --
    I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    1. Re:two possible improvements by rift321 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Another big advantage with using silver is that it isn't susceptible to photocorrosion (silver oxides do not form readily).

      Hey, sorry for my ignorance, but I thought that silver is highly susceptible to photocorrosion - isn't it used in photographic (b&w) film, or photochromic lenses? I'd just like to know where the difference is, or just some more info.

    2. Re:two possible improvements by lxs · · Score: 3, Informative

      Those are silver salts (mostly nitrate and halides). Metallic silver isn't affected by light. That's why it makes excellent mirrors (until oxygen gets to it of course)

    3. Re:two possible improvements by rift321 · · Score: 1

      ohhh yeaaah... I forgot they made mirrors from silver. hah. Thanks.

    4. Re:two possible improvements by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      I'm no chemist, but I am a photographer. The light-sensitive chemical in photographic film and paper is a Silver Halide (usually silver chloride or silver bromide)

      According to the wikipedia article, these chemicals are extremely insoluble in water.

      Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable could jump in and explain the difference and the underlying chemistry?

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    5. Re:two possible improvements by elashish14 · · Score: 1

      Silver compounds (like what you have in your film) are not very stable because it doesn't like to oxidize. Pure silver (as is used in their nanoparticles) are the opposite - very stable in elemental form. The only element that's more inert than silver is gold AFAIK.

      It should make sense: elements that easily form compounds are unstable in elemental form; elements that don't easily form stable compounds are stable in elemental form.

      --
      I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    6. Re:two possible improvements by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Silver corrodes quickly in open air, that's why most supermarkets sell silver polish. IIRC, the culprit is sulphur.

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    7. Re:two possible improvements by bperkins · · Score: 1

      TFA didn't mention lifetime, and I figure that it's not a huge issue anymore for OLEDs.

      My cynical self takes the opposite view. If they don't mention lifetime, it's probably awful.

    8. Re:two possible improvements by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      The only element that's more inert than silver is gold AFAIK.

      I believe platinum is a bit more inert even than gold. Of course, this is just for metals. If you're talking about all elements, I think the noble gases have even the inert metals beat.

    9. Re:two possible improvements by russotto · · Score: 1

      Another big advantage with using silver is that it isn't susceptible to photocorrosion (silver oxides do not form readily).

      They don't? What's with all the tarnish on the silverware, then?

    10. Re:two possible improvements by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 1

      I believe platinum is a bit more inert even than gold.

      Yes, and iridium even more so.

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    11. Re:two possible improvements by wexsessa · · Score: 1

      Silver corrodes quickly in open air, that's why most supermarkets sell silver polish. IIRC, the culprit is sulphur.

      I've had two gizmo failures due to silver contact corrosion, and sulphur was the cause. Silver sulphide is black and apparently a decent insulator (or poor conductor).

      My local sulphur source is "sour gas" (Methane contaminated with Hydrogen Sulphide). The H2S is (mostly) removed in gas processing plants before entering the pipeline as 'natural gas', but some small amount escapes to the atmosphere.

    12. Re:two possible improvements by pbhj · · Score: 1

      You're probably thinking of Silver Halides which are turned into silver metal in photographic methods; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_halide.

      Silver is relatively inert but will oxidise over time. Witness the black staining on old silver [plated] cutlery.

    13. Re:two possible improvements by atamido · · Score: 1

      Silver isn't cheap, but in that quantity it's not a big deal.

      Silver is actually a lot cheaper than most people realize. It's about 100x more expensive than copper, or around $200/pound. But yeah, when you're dealing with the amounts used here, not even platinum is likely to have a significant impact on production costs.

  15. Green? I hope more.... by camperdave · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...I hope this isn't like some of those other "eco friendly" solutions...

    Nowhere in either article is there any claim towards being eco-friendly. Neither is the word "green" in the articles, so I am quite at a loss as to why you're off on this tangent. The only claim that might be considered close is the 75% reduction in energy use, however that statement is leaps and bounds away from "It's green and eco-friendly".

    Green? I hope these new OLEDs are more than just green, but red, blue, orange, white.... every color of the rainbow.

    --
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  16. Any applications to TVs? by eison · · Score: 1

    Does this mean I should wait more on a large-screen television, or do better OLEDs not have anything to do with TV in the forseeable future?

    --
    is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
    1. Re:Any applications to TVs? by Rattenhirn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't wait unless you plan to wait forever. There's always something new and shiny on the horizon!

    2. Re:Any applications to TVs? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Sony and LG both have plans to release OLED TVs within the next year. The new Sony TV is planned to be 27 inches, so large screen OLED displays could be on the horizon although it's probably a few more years out.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  17. TFA is so numerically challenged by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 5, Informative

    (1) OLED Breakthrough Yields 75% More Efficient Light
    (2) ...reducing the ultra-thin lightsâ(TM) energy consumption by 75%
    (3) increases photoluminescence emission rates by 1.75 times
    (4) increases light intensity twofold.

    *Four* numerical figures, and no two of them compatible in any way.

    (1): "a 75% more efficient light" would mean an increase to 175% or original, a factor of 1.75 times better.
    (2): "reducing by 75%" means a factor of 4 better.
    (3): "increases photoluminescence emission rates by 1.75 times" means a 2.75 time increase, a factor of 2.75
    (4): "increases light intensity twofold" is a factor of 2.

    All incompatible. Wonder what the real numbers are?

    1. Re:TFA is so numerically challenged by ckthorp · · Score: 1

      Well said -- wish I had points.

    2. Re:TFA is so numerically challenged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Number 4

      (4): "increases light intensity twofold" is a factor of 2.

      Is not a power efficiency number, rather it's an area efficiency number. By doubling the intensity you only need half the area to produce the same amount of light, regardless of power.

    3. Re:TFA is so numerically challenged by Lifyre · · Score: 1

      It's obviously somewhere between reality and some stuff they made up to win grant money.

      --
      I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
    4. Re:TFA is so numerically challenged by noidentity · · Score: 1

      (1): "a 75% more efficient light" would mean an increase to 175% or original, a factor of 1.75 times better.

      Wouldn't that be merely 0.75 times better? With your version, if it were a "0% more efficient light", you'd be wording it as "a factor of 1.0 times better".

      (2): "reducing by 75%" means a factor of 4 better.

      If power weren't reduced, you'd be wording it "a factor of 1 better". But this one is tricky as factor of N implies a fraction of 1/N, so we can't just say "a factor of 3 better", as the fraction is 1/4.

      (3): "increases photoluminescence emission rates by 1.75 times" means a 2.75 time increase, a factor of 2.75

      In this case, the original is wrong as you point out, but then you compound the same error again! An increase of 2.75 times means it goes from 1 to 1+2.75=3.75. It is true that an increase from 1 to 2.75 is a factor of 2.75, but the only an increase by a factor of 0.75. Again, if it had no increase from 1.0 to 1.0, then there would be a factor of 1.0 between them, and thus an increase by a factor of 0.

      : "increases light intensity twofold" is a factor of 2.

      (4)A factor of 3. An increase from 1.0 to 3.0 (1.0+1.0*2) is a factor of 3, an increase by a factor of 2. In all of the above, the thing that's forgotten is that the word "increase", "more", "better", etc. means that there's an implicit 1.0 added. "I increased my stock of shells by 1", "I added 10% to my stock of shells", "I have 10% more shells". All of these involve my current shell stock being added to by the amount mentioned.

  18. Streetview by TheLink · · Score: 2, Funny

    Has that Google Streetview van passed by your place yet?

    If they haven't maybe you should plan something extra special for them :).

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  19. Other reasons for eye strain by TheLink · · Score: 2, Informative

    1) One other difference is the image/light from many screens tends to flicker.

    Many CRTs will flicker - the refresh rate is typically from 60-85Hz. The LCD panel backlight might also flicker a bit too. I'm not sure about the OLED tech.

    For the people who say you can't see the difference, just wave your hand in front of the screen. Then go out in daylight and wave your hand. Notice a difference?

    Alternatively, look at the screen from the side of your eye - for many people the image will not appear to be as "stable" or "steady" as a wall.

    2) For a lot of display tech, the blacks aren't very black, so to have a high contrast ratio they make the whites much brighter and that could hurt your eyes more (compare the brightness of your display's whites with the brightness of a piece of white paper held up next to it).

    Apparently with OLEDs the blacks should be much blacker than LCD blacks. But I suspect they're still going to be blindingly bright.

    Anyway, you could try turning the brightness down so that the standard white on your display is no brighter than the white on a sheet of paper. Alternatively change the colour scheme so that the "text background whites" aren't so bright - make them a darker grey.

    I've got my brightness set to 10 out of 100, and the text bankground white is still brighter than white paper lit by the flourescent lamps above. 100/100 is really too bright :).

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    1. Re:Other reasons for eye strain by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Apparently with OLEDs the blacks should be much blacker than LCD blacks. But I suspect they're still going to be blindingly bright.

      Why would an OLED still have bright blacks? The reason LCD's don't do black well is because the pixels can't totally block the backlight. OLEDs have no backlight so a black pixel should not emit any light.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    2. Re:Other reasons for eye strain by TheLink · · Score: 1

      The blacks should be blacker, but I'm suspecting the OLED whites would be blindingly bright.

      So you're going to have many digit contrast ratios that the marketing and advertising people are going to love.

      --
    3. Re:Other reasons for eye strain by adolf · · Score: 1

      ...which can always (and easily) be adjusted down to sanity.

  20. brightness. by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 1

    Maybe they'll be bright enough to use for area lighting?

  21. Can't wait... by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    ....To fly over in my fusion powered flying car to pick some up on the way to the drug store for my telomere repairing anti-cancer pills.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  22. Yep by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

    Yep, even a 100W standard bulb in a small room is much too dark compared to outdoors. I'd love to have more powerful lighting tech available, but not at reduced output -- at the same output or better.

    Where this will really make a difference though, is in mountain bikes --- it currently costs around £350 for a reasonably high-end lightsource for bikes, and even then, the high-end well-reviewed stuff just sucks for any serious riding in the dark. Riding in the dark isn't just necessary in winter -- it's also an interesting potential sport. But until the lights are more powerful, cheaper, lighter, and last longer, it's not happening as much as it could.

    1. Re:Yep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Outdoors it is really hard to see what's on the screen, I wouldn't want it like that indoors.

    2. Re:Yep by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      That's why we need reflective display technology, like most of the electronic paper solutions.

    3. Re:Yep by seven+of+five · · Score: 1

      Errr... if you're using a light, you're not riding in the dark.

    4. Re:Yep by Mia'cova · · Score: 1

      I think I'd rather double the battery life on my iphone than save a few dollars on my bike..

    5. Re:Yep by g253 · · Score: 1

      So, if you're using a buoy you're no longer in the water?

    6. Re:Yep by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Buoys don't make water go away. Lights do make dark go away.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    7. Re:Yep by adolf · · Score: 1

      Gah.

      My computer room is intentionally dark. The newly-installed solid red oak floor is stained black, the walls are a dark, flat olive drab, and the ceiling is a matching shade of dirty brown. There is a black curtain over the room's solitary window. I cover all of the blindingly-bright blue LEDs on my electronics with red electrical tape to dim them down.

      Curses to you and the other light-seekers, and likewise to your reflective e-ink displays. Everything I need to see lights up by itself already.

  23. Mmm, vague English grammar by sootman · · Score: 1

    The world needs more Lojbanists!

    "75% More Efficient Lights"--does the breakthrough mean that the lights produced are 75% more efficient, or that 75% more lights are being made that are efficient?

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  24. lab incandescent lights much more efficient by peter303 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seven times more efficient according to recent article . Its fascinating you can teach an old dog new tricks with sufficient economic incentives. I welcome the competition among old and new technologies.

  25. My favorite quote. . . by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    "The method using surface plasmon represents a new technology to enhance the emission efficiency of OLED. It is expected to greatly contribute to the development of new technologies in OLED and flexible display, as well as securing original technology," --Prof. Choi

    Doesn't that just sound like something out of the Alpha Centauri tech tree?

    Light emitting diodes tech is one of my favorite. It and all the inventions which derive from it, makes life look and feel as though we're truly in, "The Future" as I imagined it while watching Buck Rogers back in my childhood.

    -FL

  26. And with the new solar panels... by JoshuaZ · · Score: 0

    Given how frequently Slashdot reports massive increases in the efficiency of lights and how frequently it reports massive increases in the efficiency of solar panels pretty soon we'll be able to hook up a light bulb to some solar cells and have a perpetual motion machine!

  27. IMOD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been waiting to see IMOD products ever since that article in Scientific American a couple years back, but...

    http://www.qualcomm.com/common/documents/articles/QMT_Scientific_American_Nov2007.pdf

  28. You must be young. OLED by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    OLED displays. Electronic ink such as used in the Kindle? All tech that has been reported for years on slashdot, and made it's way into our hands.

    Tech happens all the time but we tend not to be as awed anymore when it has actually arrived because... well tech has moved on.

    When OLED displays were first announced, they were REALLY amazing because LCD's of that age had problems enough with even lightening let alone doing proper blacks. Their viewing angle was also horrible so OLED's with their 180 degree viewing angle sounded wonderful. The contrast of 10.000:1 was also consider unubtainable.

    And now I got an AMOLED on my Cowon s9 mp4 player (odd why it is called an mp4 player when that is the one format it does not actually support) and its display is very nice indeed. BUT no longer the revolution it once was when first announced.

    Viewing angled have gone up on LCD's. With led lightening LCD screens have become better. Contrast has gone up as well. Sure, the OLED display is STILL better (can watch it even in sunlight) but not by the same degree.

    Right now, Sony has an OLED display for sale that really looks stunning. But geez god is it tiny. On the other hand, LCD technology paired with led back lightening has come awfully close to matching its capabilities. And that is the way of tech... for a while.

    because the first cars didn't go much faster then a horse and were a hell of a lot more trouble to keep running, less reliable and more expensive.

    But eventually the tech moved on. Someday OLED displays may make the current LCD offerings look very bad indeed. And by that time you will have been reading about the next advance which seems amazing.

    Welcome to life, the older you get, the less wonderful things seem.

    Oh well, time for an old trick. Turn the color on your TV all the way down so you see in B&W for an evening.Then tomorrow be amazed at the amazing full colors of your ten year old tv.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:You must be young. OLED by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      I never read anything about OLED displays. I was just reporting my experience, which is why I didn't say "Slashdot NEVER reports on technologies that actually come through." It's just rare. As in I've never read about it.

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