Linux Notebooks Selling Well On Amazon Germany

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Linux Notebooks Selling Well On Amazon Germany

Posted by kdawson on Saturday July 25, 2009 @08:40PM from the next-stop-world-domination dept.

christian.einfeldt writes "The LinuxTech.net blog points out that Linux notebooks are currently selling quite well on Amazon's list in Germany. The blog includes screenshots showing the Linux Asus and Aspire notebooks in positions 2 and 4, respectively, on that list. These machines are not netbooks, but full notebooks, albeit on the moderate to low side regarding price and performance. That LinuxTech.net blog was dated 23 July 2009, and the Asus machine is still holding second place more than one day later, while the Acer machine slipped to fifth position, despite the volatile nature of Amazon bestseller lists. While these two data points are just snapshots in time, they are consistent with other data showing that Microsoft itself attributes some of its recent weak earnings to surging sales of low-end notebooks, as well as data showing that the Linux-powered and Unix-powered computers topped Amazon's sales charts in all categories for 2007. If there is to ever be a 'year of desktop (or laptop) Linux', it won't happen all at once, but will creep up in ways similar to what we are seeing now."

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Even the Germans... by Quantos · 2009-07-25 20:43 · Score: 3, Interesting

Make some bad choices. Actually Linux probably outperforms Windows or Mac on low end, and if meets the needs then who is going to argue with it.

--
Some people are only alive because it's against the law for me to hunt them down and kill them.
1. Re:Even the Germans... by Quantos · 2009-07-25 20:47 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  I would like to know how that was a 'Troll', can you even read?
  
  --
  Some people are only alive because it's against the law for me to hunt them down and kill them.
2. Re:Even the Germans... by Quantos · 2009-07-25 21:02 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  Being German, and having a good sense of humor, I would like to know how I'm flamebait and a Troll.
  
  --
  Some people are only alive because it's against the law for me to hunt them down and kill them.
3. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 21:11 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  It's just a guess, but "Even the Germans make some bad choices" does not exactly bring out the best memories from the World's History... hope I could help.
4. Re:Even the Germans... by Quantos · 2009-07-25 21:23 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  Not really, people that are still focused on that just have their heads up their asses. I'm German, but damn, I've got a sense of humor.
  What would happen if I said that even Russians make bad choices, or - God forbid - Americans make bad choices, does that get me banned?
  
  Fuck off people, get a life.
  
  NOW THAT'S A TROLL WITH FLAMEBAIT.
  
  --
  Some people are only alive because it's against the law for me to hunt them down and kill them.
5. Re:Even the Germans... by SerpentMage · 2009-07-25 21:42 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  You are using SARCASM and IRONY... Does not go over well in USA... Americans can be funny people but their lack of comprehension of irony is quite astounding....
  Actually I was laughing at your comment... Thought it was funny. But then again I am German-Canadian...
  What does that get you? A sarcastic person with no sense of humor!
  
  --
  
  "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
  "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
6. Re:Even the Germans... by HangingChad · 2009-07-25 21:43 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I'm not sure how that qualifies as flamebait. It's a lot easier to fit Linux to low end hardware than Mac or Windows. Windows 7 runs on netbooks but it doesn't run that well. And if Linux gets wider acceptance in Europe, that would hardly be a surprise.
  It's possible the mod moved the rating with the scroll wheel after selection. It's easy to do and not notice. If you're not paying attention you can start scrolling page but if the rating dropdown is still selected, you'll scroll the selection options. At least in FF, not sure if IE works the same way.
  
  --
  That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
7. Re:Even the Germans... by Quantos · 2009-07-25 21:46 · Score: 1
  
  That depends, do you wear boots?
  
  --
  Some people are only alive because it's against the law for me to hunt them down and kill them.
8. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 22:23 · Score: 0
  
  What a mean response to a perfectly valid question. Mod parent down, please.
9. Re:Even the Germans... by Tenebrousedge · 2009-07-25 23:00 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I used my mod points elsewhere, or I would correct the above moderation. I've been getting 15 points twice a week for a couple of weeks now; I try to follow the guidelines as best I can. Especially in regards to downmods: there's very little reason to downmod, I find. Anything that's obviously flamebait will be ignored, and while there are occasionally trolls here, I think it's usually better to post AC to point them out.
  On the whole, I think the slashdot community is a good one, mods included. I suspect that people who spend most of their mod points marking things 'troll' and 'flamebait' are less likely to get mod points in the future; if not, that might be a good feature request. The only other thing I'd wish were different about the mod system would be to return to the old system of metamoderation. quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
  There are a lot of things to get frustrated about with slashdot: dupes, lame memes, and zealots of every stripe. Even at that, I think this is probably the best site on the internet (though perhaps not the universe). The dialogues here are fascinating and hugely informative. Every story on biochemistry, astronomy, or optics seems to draw out people with decades of experience to give anecdotes and wisdom that I'd never find elsewhere.
  I think the most consistent thing I've noticed about slashdot moderation and comments is that anything that gets modded +5 is worth reading. And as Pliny tells us, "True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read."
  -Tene
  
  --
  Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
10. Re:Even the Germans... by Dan541 · 2009-07-25 23:13 · Score: 0
  
  This is /. expect no integrity from the mods.
  
  --
  An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
11. Re:Even the Germans... by Hymer · 2009-07-25 23:35 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  You may not be aware of it but Linux outperforms Windows on any platform, 88.6% of the top 500 computers in the world run Linux (June 2009).
12. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 23:38 · Score: 0
  
  Damn, I know this is Slashdot and people here live in WoW, so their currency is masturbillings or whatever they use there, but the thing with Linux in laptops or desktops is not because Linux is good is just because it is free! IT IS A SIMPLE MONETARY ISSUE!
  Look to the stats for Brazil, the country in the world with the highest number of desktops and laptops sold in the last 6 months. 80% of the medium to high end computers sold in Brazil run Linux, and 95% of the netbooks sold in Brazil run Linux as well.
  It is just because they are cheaper than the Windows ones.
  Then after people gets their computer, they just go to the closest street corner and buy a pirated copy of Vista, XP or Windows 7, and install on their computers. Bye, bye Linux...
13. Re:Even the Germans... by Snaller · 2009-07-25 23:51 · Score: 1
  
  Its because you attacked Germans - it doesn't matter if you are one yourself (they didn't know that). You could just stay it was a bad choice without mixing in nationality.
  Was it a waste of a mod point? yeah sure, but people - all people the whole species - are nuts, welcome to the planet.
  
  --
  If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
14. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 00:02 · Score: 0
  
  I'm not sure how that qualifies as flamebait.
  Germans -> Bad choices -> Heading towards Godwin.
15. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 00:05 · Score: 0
  
  Windows 7 runs on netbooks but it doesn't run that well.
  Lies
16. Re:Even the Germans... by FudRucker · 2009-07-26 00:07 · Score: 1
  
  i am assuming you are referring to world war two, and no, we did not attack the Germans, we attacked the Nazis (Hitler's army that raped almost all of Europe, north Africa & parts of western Russia & Ukraine)...
  
  some of us read history books.
  
  --
  Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
17. Re:Even the Germans... by Erikderzweite · 2009-07-26 00:42 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  You really have to look closer at that statistic: 88,6 is the percentage of supercomputers that run only Linux. If you really want the number of machines running Linux in that list, you have to add 5.8% which are mixed systems and 2 supercomputers that are listed as running Windows, but are really mixed systems (this is probably done to make Microsoft look a bit better). So we end up having 94,8% of world's 500 fastest computers having Linux installed.
  Because in some areas brains are more prevalent than PR and marketing.
18. Re:Even the Germans... by RDW · 2009-07-26 00:44 · Score: 1
  
  'It's just a guess, but "Even the Germans make some bad choices" does not exactly bring out the best memories from the World's History'
  Indeed:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUHomRLop7I
19. Re:Even the Germans... by hairyfeet · 2009-07-26 00:50 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  That is because the average Joe don't know squat about OSes, hell they often can't even tell you WHAT OS they are running (I often get "Windows something" when I ask which OS a customer is running) but believe you me they DO notice when their (insert Quickbooks/Quicken, Cheapo Lexmark all in one, puzzle games they picked up at Wally World, etc) don't work. There is a REASON why MSI was looking at 400% return rates on their Linux netbooks, I know because I had the same thing happen when I tried selling Linux.
  Here is what happens-You explain to Joe about how easy it is to get free software with Linux, show him how to use synaptic, tell him to check hardware compatibility before buying extra junk. He promptly goes to Wally World, or Worst Buy and goes "Oooh...sale!" and buys whatever PC junk o' the day is on sale. When he gets it home and of course it doesn't work so the PC comes back with Joe expecting you to "fix it" which of course you can't, because Linux drivers for the kind of stuff you get at Wally World is pretty much non existent. So you either A-burn the customer, in which case he spreads the word and soon you are out of business, or B-you take back the machine and eat the difference between what it sold for new and what you can get for it used.
  I know the Linux guys will hate me for saying this, but you know why I am really grateful for Linux? Because thanks to Linux MSFT is having to stop acting like giant douches when it comes to pricing. If it wasn't for Linux the "MSFT tax" would be crazy, and the cheapest Win7 would probably be a couple of hundred just for the upgrade. I mean look here at a $298 Vista Basic notebook with an actual discrete GPU. you know MSFT can't be getting squat for Vista Basic if they can offer it at that price and still make money. And we can all thank Linux for that, by putting the fear of FLOSS into the Ballmer monkey and making MSFT actually compete.
  But to get Linux to "just work" for Joe, they are gonna need native Photoshop, Quickbooks, EA games, drivers for all the little gadgets at Wally World, etc. And sadly I doubt this will ever happen. So Linux will continue to scare MSFT but not actually gain any real ground with the critical home markets. Because it is pretty clear that most companies don't want to play the GPL game, especially after RMS went after TiVo with GPL V3, and without them to give Linux native apps to Joe Linux will be "free as in worthless" to him because he can't get his stuff to run out of the box. And please don't bring up companies like Intel that do, because if you look EVERY major corp that has released has significant server/enterprise markets they are appealing to. The stuff in Wally World don't get sold to server markets and they don't have the kinds of patent warchests the likes of AMD, IBM, Intel, etc have. For the smaller companies to release with all the patent trolls in the USA would be suicide. After all, is RMS gonna indemnify me if I release my driver code and get hit by a patent troll? I didn't think so.
  
  --
  ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
20. Re:Even the Germans... by Salsaman · 2009-07-26 00:54 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  In my experience, Linux outperforms Windows and Mac on the low end, the high end, and the middle end.
  Free software is never a bad choice.
21. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 02:00 · Score: 0
  
  I'm German, but damn, I've got a sense of humor.
  Me too (being German, that is ...). But the OP is neither funny nor coherent:
  
  Even the Germans... Make some bad choices.
  Yes, this is true, indeed. And this could be funny, depending on context.
  
  Actually Linux probably outperforms Windows or Mac on low end, and if meets the needs then who is going to argue with it.
  So, where are the Germans making bad/good choices for making the OP funny? Seriously ...
  Now heading upstairs for sauerkraut!
22. Re:Even the Germans... by LaughingCoder · 2009-07-26 02:05 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  .. or - God forbid - Americans make bad choices, does that get me banned?
  
  Nah. Around \. if you say "Americans make bad choices" you'd be +5 Insightful/Informative.
  
  --
  The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
23. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 02:12 · Score: 0
  
  Being German, and having a good sense of humor, I would like to know how I'm flamebait and a Troll.
  I modded you flamebait because you imply Linux would be a bad choice for any setup. Which is clearly an uninformed flamebait on Slashdot.
24. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 02:23 · Score: 1, Funny
  
  Lies
  Which bit?
  
  Windows 7 runs on netbooks
  or
  
  it doesn't run that well.
  ?
25. Re:Even the Germans... by killthepoor187 · 2009-07-26 02:36 · Score: 1
  
  My experience as well.
26. Re:Even the Germans... by mhall119 · 2009-07-26 02:37 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but Brazil and Germany have very high rates of Linux adoption, far beyond what we see in North America and most of Europe. I'd be surprised if any large number of those Brazilian sales were replaced with Windows.
  
  --
  http://www.mhall119.com
27. Re:Even the Germans... by MartinSchou · 2009-07-26 02:59 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Americans can be funny people but their lack of comprehension of irony is quite astounding.... [...] But then again I am German-Canadian
  So ... you, a Canadian, is pointing at Americans (presumably people from the US) as being unable to comprehend irony, when one of (if not) the best known examples of not comprehending irony is the song "Ironic" by Canadian singer Alanis Morissette
  I'd call that quite ironic, but I fear the outcome of that.
28. Re:Even the Germans... by sgtrock · 2009-07-26 03:01 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Anyone referencing MSI's lousy distribution and support on their netbooks as a reason for Linux not being a viable offering while simultaneously ignoring Dell's continued success in selling Ubuntu based netbooks, laptops, and desktops is either (a) ignorant of the facts or (b) a deliberate troll. On the off chance that you are the former, I suggest you google Dell, linux, netbook and read through a few stories. (One of my personal favorites is the second one that showed up when I just tried the search. This one.) It is not only possible to successfully sell Linux, apparently Dell has found it to be very easy. :-)
  So, who am I going to believe who understands the Linux market? A copmpany that threw out a half hearted, poorly thought out attempt to jump into a new market, or a company that actually /asked/ people what they wanted and then crafted a business strategy to capitalize on what people told them?
29. Re:Even the Germans... by schon · 2009-07-26 03:21 · Score: 1
  
  There is a REASON why MSI was looking at 400% return rates on their Linux netbooks
  Considering that they were the only ones to have a 400% return rate, I'm guessing that reason would be that they had a piss-poor distro with tons of bugs.
  
  I know because I had the same thing happen when I tried selling Linux.
  Considering that ASUS had no such issues, it kind of refutes your whole hypothesis that it's impossible to sell Linux. My guess is that you had problems similar to MSI.
30. Re:Even the Germans... by Elektroschock · 2009-07-26 03:37 · Score: 1
  
  Actually the Americans jumped to the aid of Stalin and Churchill in 1941. War started around 1939...
31. Re:Even the Germans... by hey! · 2009-07-26 03:41 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  As long as you are not on a laptop and need ACPI, sound and video to work stably. Or deal with kernel updates from your distro that break things after you've got them working again.
  I realize these things are not Linux's "fault". I live with them because of Linux's other advantages. But they are a PITA.
  Linux is ideal on a netbook. If it is supported by the manufacturer, you won't have these kinds of problems, and enjoy the benefits of freedom and open standards. I've used it since Debian 0.9, which I downloaded over a modem. I've had very positive experiences with Linux on desktops, where you can simply replace hardware you are having compatibility problems with and use the BIOS to disable motherboard features. I've had good experiences with Linux on ThinkPads. But I've had terrible experiences with Linux on a variety of other notebooks in the $1000 to $2000 range, most recently an Asus F8VA. Bad enough that I'm considering reinstalling Vista, which is quite tolerable with 3+GB of RAM and a multicore CPU running at 2.53GHz.
  As an old time Unix guy, I like Linux a great deal, and am glad that low system margins on devices like netbooks force manufacturers to support Linux better. But we shouldn't exaggerate how wonderful things are, especially on middle priced notebooks. I have no hesitation to recommend Linux for netbooks or for Thinkpads.
  
  --
  Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
32. Re:Even the Germans... by Elektroschock · 2009-07-26 03:42 · Score: 1
  
  Exactly. Germany is more advanced in Linux adoption among ordinary citizens but in the public sector Spain leads.
  Find the Spanish prime minister Zapatero telling that Bill Gates told him to be proud of Linux adoption.
  Actually it is that people are fed up with Microsoft's arogance and with Linux you have Firefox and don't waste your time with virus scanning.
33. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 03:53 · Score: 0
  
  Exactly, lies. Windows 7 runs perfectly on my EEE PC 900 with only 4GB (+8GB) SSD. Of course it is a heavily vlite'd version from the bay, but still. Default install of that left about 1.3 GB free of 4 and got it even lower (1.5 GB now with some things added and others removed).
  Speedwise it feels faster than the default XP installation and there are several claims that it runs longer on battery, though I haven't tested that yet.
  Of course, I have puppy linux (gotta love a distribution that small) with eee drivers on a USB stick and may in the end permanently install either that or some other distribution.
34. Re:Even the Germans... by Hurricane78 · 2009-07-26 04:07 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, because the people living here today, are not completely different from back then. ;)
  Seriously. Germans are so left-extremist nowadays, that I as a semi-foreigner can nearly understand some right-extremists.
  They fear of being called Nazis for loving their country. For saying anything that could be interpreted as something bad against foreigners, jews, etc. Even if it is true. (Like there being good and bad people everywhere.)
  People here *still* are traumatized. Which leads to this opposite-direction extremism.
  Luckily, it's way better than back then, and continues to get better (I think).
  But I also think we should be way over it.
  
  --
  Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
35. Re:Even the Germans... by FudRucker · 2009-07-26 04:19 · Score: 1
  
  yup, when Germany invaded Poland
  
  --
  Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
36. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 04:36 · Score: 0
  
  Because in some areas brains are more prevalent than PR and marketing.
  OMG! When did that happen?
37. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 04:49 · Score: 0
  
  Users don't even know squat about the applications, let alone the OS.
  I formatted a bunch of print manuals for one company in PageMaker years ago. In an attempt to save cost, they told me they wanted to move stuff in-house. When the guy in charge of this started "we paid for it, we have a right to the source" I gently reminded him that I delivered a disk each time with all the files I created on it. "Well, yeah," he replied, "but you must be using some kind of encryption because we can't open any of them in MS Office." When I explained they would have to buy PageMaker, he lambasted me for not doing it in some "free" software package like MS Office.
38. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 05:17 · Score: 0
  
  What is this "backslash dot"?
39. Re:Even the Germans... by UltimApe · 2009-07-26 05:38 · Score: 1
  
  I switch to windows 7 because firefox was a bloated pig, and opera had too many display issues.
  I'll switch back when the native chrome client is up to snuff.
  
  --
  "Infecting minds with my own memetic virus, one post at a time." Ultimape
40. Re:Even the Germans... by Sique · 2009-07-26 05:44 · Score: 1
  
  That's the backlash-dot you get if you comment against the groupthink.
  
  --
  .sig: Sique *sigh*
41. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 07:50 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Honestly I've never had ACPI issues with linux since the early 2000's (nearly a decade ago now...). Pretty outdated complaint.
42. Re:Even the Germans... by drsmithy · 2009-07-26 08:41 · Score: 1
  
  You may not be aware of it but Linux outperforms Windows on any platform, 88.6% of the top 500 computers in the world run Linux (June 2009).
  For those of you who have ever wondered what a non-sequitur looks like, this is an excellent example.
43. Re:Even the Germans... by Hymer · 2009-07-26 09:05 · Score: 1
  
  I am fully aware of that, I didn't add up because 88.6% is enough to proove the point.
44. Re:Even the Germans... by Elektroschock · 2009-07-26 09:17 · Score: 1
  
  September 1, 1939 != 1941
45. Re:Even the Germans... by hairyfeet · 2009-07-26 11:43 · Score: 1
  
  I'm sorry there buddy, but I'm afraid logic isn't on your side today. You see, the big fricking difference that nobody seems to be thinking of when comparing a Walmart or me to Dell is this: To buy an Ubuntu box from dell you have to -(A)- Got to the Dell website and SPECIFICALLY look for it, since you will notice NOTHING about Linux on the main page, and -(B)- Have to go around all the "Dell recommends Windows Vista" warnings to pick the Ubuntu version. So the ONLY customers you will EVER get buying Ubuntu from Dell is someone who actually knows about Linux, wants Linux bad enough to go rooting around their website for it, and is willing to ignore their "warnings" about Windows Vista.
  Now compare that to a Walmart or my shop. Folks come in off the street. They are NOT looking specifically for Linux (and I would put the odds of a Linux geek actually buying from a retail shop anything at 0.0%), they see the Linux box with the spinning cubes and go "ooohhh cool!" and then as my previous post laid out, when they get burned because app or device Foo has absolutely ZERO support in Linux (and I would argue that support for the kinds of things you get in Walmart, Best Buy, Staples is piss poor at best) they bring it back and you lose money.
  That is why Everex, who tried to make a living selling the gOS based boxes and netbooks to Walmart is out of business now. Because Walmart saw the kind of returns I was and quit selling them in stores and put them on the back of their website. There is a REASON why Linux support for home devices is piss poor at best. It is because the vast majority of money being spent to develop Linux is on SERVER implementations and NOT desktops. If 1/6th the money being spent on server was spent on desktop you would have a winner, but it will NEVER be. Why? Because server is where the big fat support contracts are and even Ubuntu is getting into the server game.
  That is why I think it is funny but also kinda sad when I see Linux fans pushing for Linux to home consumers. You're like a preacher who is trying to raise his congregation while the repo man is taking his pews away. To get even the support of Win2K, much less WinXP, millions of dollars will have to be spent on the desktop, and 100 million plus probably wouldn't be unreasonable. Let me repeeat that: To get to the level of usability and support for all the items in Staples, Walmart, and Best Buy, that WinXP currently enjoys you will have to spend tens of millions, maybe even hundreds of millions. Expecting guys in their basements, or even worse the users themselves to be able to reverse engineer the thousands of new devices hitting the market daily is about as much of a fairy tale as expecting MSFT to release full source code to every OS they have abandoned over the years so you can support it yourself. It just ain't gonna happen capt'n.
  So until I can place an Ubuntu box (and FYI, the Linux I was selling was Ubuntu not "Joe Shmoe Linux, last attempt was 9.04 BTW) and know without a shadow of a doubt that at LEAST 85% of the items sold in Staples, Best Buy, and Walmart will all "just work" it is simply cheaper for me to add the "MSFT" tax to the price of the boxes I sell. At least with the MSFT tax I have 100% driver support for WinXP (I refuse to sell Vista, but I will be switched to Win7 come SP1) and thus my support costs are zero. As someone on here earlier wisely said "Linux is free if you time is worthless" and my time is $75 an hour, thanks anyway. No Sale.
  
  --
  ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
46. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 13:36 · Score: 0
  
  What you are saying about netbooks goes for laptops too: If supported by the manufacturer it works beautifully. I have an Ubuntu Dell and everything works: video, audio, sleep, hibernate.
  This is why it is such good news that these notebooks are being sold *with* linux. And to be fair to linux: windows and mac users usually buy their laptops with their os on it. So the manufacturer can make sure it works.
47. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 13:40 · Score: 0
  
  i have ubuntu on my 7GB flash version of an Acer Aspire one. It works so well, I keep thinking "This would really fly if given a 120GB HDD and 1GB ram like the Windows XP one" 8)
  Apart from Dell, I havent seen any offering Linux on the top spec ones. Even with Dell though, the XP Dell Mini9 was cheaper as they had a substantial cash back offer on it, proving MS obviously has to actually pay vendors to get Windows out the door on Netbooks 8)
48. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 15:26 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  As long as you are not on a laptop and need ACPI, sound and video to work stably
  I've run Linux on a bunch of Thinkpads for almost 10 years and not had a problem with any of them. Admittedly sound has been the biggest problem on my desktop machines, usually with Intel chipsets. Ubuntu recently pee'd me off with their "doesn't work right on Intel chipsets" feature, but other than that I've never had a an issue running Linux on any machine I've owned including ones with Nvidia graphics cards and even a Dell 640m with a Broadcom wireless thingy in it.
  Having said that I've ended up helping a load of folks out trying to get some awkward hardware working, but certainly no more than I've had to do the same with Windows. And in most cases I've managed to get the Linux box working; with Windows, if it hasn't worked the first couple of times there just seems to be no chance until the hardware manufacturer releases another driver or an update.
  I don't personally like OSX machines but I have never, ever had to try and get hardware to work on one. I have had a number of updates that broke the machine but a backup has always put it right. And as for performance, Linux for me has always been the quickest, although my Macbook Pro leaves Linux for dead when using an office suite but I get the feeling that is more to do with OpenOffice than Linux in general. As soon as I have installed around seven applications in XP I start to get gradual system slowdown over a few months. After a year, I reinstall.
  Still can't log in at this damned cafenet.... adam.ec
49. Re:Even the Germans... by moosesocks · 2009-07-26 16:08 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not sure what people here are basing their opinions of MacOS on.
  Up until the most recent release, MacOS X has run extremely well on old hardware, to the extent that newer releases were often, in fact faster than their predecessors. I'm basing this opinion based upon my experiences with a 450 Mhz G4 tower that I've had since the 90s, and is now running 10.4. For day-to-day tasks, the machine still runs great. I did some video editing on it a year or two back, and noticed that Final Cut Pro has astonishingly modest hardware requirements. How many 10-year-old computers can you say that about?
  10.5 Leopard is a bit of a white elephant, given that it doesn't run particularly well on new hardware. I've run Linux (Ubuntu) on a Mac of the same vintage, and noted that GNOME, KDE, and many of their applications were far too slow to use, but had fantastic luck with XFCE.
  There are a lot of things you could hate on Apple for. This isn't one of them.
  While I'm at it, I'll also point out that XP runs fine on "low end" hardware, considering that "low end" hardware today is still quite a bit faster than the hardware that XP was targeted to run on when it was first released in 2001. I haven't seen any Vista-only apps in the wild yet (possibly some games, although I'm not qualified to comment on that)
  
  --
  -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
50. Re:Even the Germans... by LordVader717 · 2009-07-26 21:24 · Score: 1
  
  It's not always as bad as you make out. Hardware support is less of an issue than it used to be.
  But I'd be interested to know specifically what "home devices" you mean from Best Buy etc. These days most peripherals are standard web cams, printers, scanners and storage devices.
  Things were different in the days of USB modems, but most people now have dedicated WLAN router-modems and laptops have integrated WLAN, which are generally work in Ubuntu.
  While scanners are still admittedly a pain in the butt, digital cameras, USB web cams and memory sticks are generally supported "out of the box" with Ubuntu. And printing from Linux actually works much better with my Printer, because it doesn't have a crappy Windows driver which refuses to let me print if it decides my toner's too low, and makes it extra awkward to do duplex printing.
  As for Audio/Video devices, like webcams and microphones, they're not "thousands of new devices daily", but actually just a handful of individual chipsets repackaged under different brands.
  I would say that between all the crappy Windows drivers and the whole Security/Antivirus Software hassle on Windows, there are certainly some users which would happier with Linux.
  One more anecdote if you're interested: I bought a cheap USB MIDI adapter. You can get it to work with XP, but Vista isn't, or at least wasn't at the time supported. Apparently it would conflict with some webcams too, and the manufacturer recommended a fix that involved editing the Windows registry. With Ubuntu it was a matter of plug-and-play.
51. Re:Even the Germans... by hey! · 2009-07-26 23:11 · Score: 1
  
  My experience with Linux on Thinkpads has also been positive. I'm just saying don't extrapolate from that experience to other laptops, even from manufacturers that otherwise support Linux (e.g. Asus).
  
  --
  Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
52. Re:Even the Germans... by hairyfeet · 2009-07-27 07:50 · Score: 1
  
  Thank you for actually posting a serious reply. I am so tired of when I point out that Linux was a losing proposition for me at retail getting "Linux rules and u suxorz!" and getting downmodded. So I will try to answer with as much detail as possible, to show that it wasn't on my end. As for which devices, sadly the three most popular here: The USB Wifi sticks, the USB TV tuners(very popular ATM), and the Lexmark multifunction printer/scanner/fax combos(which are selling for $30 and the local Walgreen's refills the carts for $10, so ink isn't an issue with those anymore). After this last one with Ubuntu I went to the local Walmart supercenter with a pen and paper and wrote down brands, and then checked for support. From what I saw in the local branch you are looking at MAYBE 20% supported, and about 1/3rd of those you will have to deal with CLI or jumping through major hoops to get even partial functionality.
  As for the viruses, spyware, malware in Windows? If you're PC builder takes pride in his work(which In do) then you simply won't see them unless you purposely disable everything and allow them in. Since even my most clueless customers are usually not that stupid (I say usually because I have a "must see teh prons!" guy that will run ANYTHING if it has the word lesbos or porn in it) and I have many customers that years later have not a single piece of malware. Unlike most OEMs or VARs I have the machine fully up to date, with autoupdate enabled, I have Comodo Av/Firewall set up and scheduled to scan on the users schedule, I have Spybot set to autoupdate and scan, I give the Firefox with ABP installed as a default browser, I give them Klite Mega Codec Pack and warn them that since I have placed all the codecs in if any site says you need a codec it is a virus, so as you can see I put in the work so my customers are safe. Thanks to Almeza installer I only have to install the latest software once and I have an autoinstaller made with the settings I prefer to automate installations.
  So while it would be nice to have Linux boxes sitting there beside the Windows ones, ATM it simply isn't feasible. The rate of return for the Linux units is simply too high, and the local stores have barely 20% support rates in Linux. What is sad is like I said if 1/6th the amount of money spent on Linux server development was spent on Desktop these problem could be fixed and Linux would have a clear shot at Joe average. But since the corps spending the money frankly don't give a shit about desktops many of these problems will simply never be solved.
  
  --
  ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
53. Re:Even the Germans... by True+Grit · 2009-07-30 00:47 · Score: 1
  
  Absolutely agreed. As good as /. is, it would be even better if it relied much more on up-moderation rather than down-moderation.
  So I'd go as far as to suggest that the "Troll" and "Flamebait" mods be merged into one, as they just have too much overlap, and at the very *least*, that the "Offtopic" moderation should be taken out back and shot, or terminated with extreme prejudice if the former language sounds too harsh to you. I see the OT mod as the single most frequently and consistently "misabused" moderation of them all, with this "Even the Germans" subthread being just the latest example (and proof) of its pointless, counter-productive uselessness.
  Can you tell that I'm a little annoyed? :)
  It made better sense back when /. had a much smaller, non-international population, but not any more: virtually every discussion now at some point, or at *multiple* points, and sometimes for the *entire* remainder of the discussion!, goes OT, with so many posters its just impossible for that not to happen, what with human nature being what it is, never mind the *delicious* number of possibilities for an international audience to misunderstand one another (as appears to have played a role here). Besides, going OT is not *always* a bad outcome anyway, many off-topic subthreads (like this one!) I read here are just as Interesting/Informative/Insightful as on-topic subthreads are.
  Worse, once an OT subthread starts, we'd have to waste a huge number of mod points to down-mod the whole thing. Down-modding just part of an OT subthread accomplishes absolutely *nothing*, we're forcing those who want to *understand* the rest of the subthread to drop their threshold to -1 to see the first part of it - which just defeats the purpose of having a threshold to begin with! Thats the case with this subthread, sadly.
  And as final food-for-thought: if we don't want OT posts, why do we give posters the ability to change the Subject line? Indeed, why is there a Subject line for each post at all? Just askin'...
  [dons blindfold and lights last cigarette and waits for the inevitable moderator who disagrees to mod *this* post OT... Come on, this is /., you *know* its gonna happen...]
54. Re:Even the Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-08-06 15:29 · Score: 0
  
  millions of dollars will have to be spent on the desktop, and 100 million plus probably wouldn't be unreasonable
  What are you going on about? Dollars? Do you realize that almost all of the multi-multi-multi-billion-dollar GNU project was developed for free by volunteers?
People want save 10% of the price by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 20:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

Last two notebooks I bought came with freedos.
1. Re:People want save 10% of the price by molnarcs · 2009-07-25 22:32 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Last two notebooks I bought came with freedos.
  Last two notebooks I bought came with FreeDos too - A dell Vostro 1400 and a Vostro 1300 (for a friend). The shop was selling windows licenses separately - if you bought one they would install it for you. Or they'll install windows for free if you make enough of the staff laugh :) That's how things work here in Vietnam. The Vietnamese are fun loving people. If you need a favor (or if you want to be taken seriously), make them laugh ;)
2. Re:People want save 10% of the price by derGoldstein · 2009-07-26 00:06 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Here in Israel most of the "geek shops" sell laptops with freedos. Sometimes I'm surprised to see brand name laptops being sold without windows (but with a real warranty), while people I know in the US and Europe complain that they don't have that option.
  It's very popular these days, because if you bought a computer ~3-4 years ago, you probably have a copy of XP, and a relatively slow machine. It's common practice to get a laptop without windows and just move your copy from the old machine to the new one. At which point you either sell the old computer without an OS, or load a Linux distro on it and turn it into a NAS or a server.
  
  --
  Entomologically speaking, the spider is not a bug, it's a feature.
3. Re:People want save 10% of the price by Ilgaz · 2009-07-26 01:22 · Score: 1
  
  Lenovo, at least in Istanbul does use their IBM-DOS advantage that way too. In their business laptops (I actually have one in shop basket), "installed OS" is DOS. I assume it is IBM DOS and the money difference goes to 3GB of RAM I think which is really impressive.
  It is a huge issue for MS. As it has some archaic OS installed, I have some time to think whether to set FreeBSD with KDE or go with Windows. If it came with Vista, I would be really lazy to do it.
  Of course, Lenovo is not really IBM and their site is infected with "recommends Vista" junk all over the place. IBM would never do such things for couple of extra cents. Or, they would... to get MS into more trouble with monopoly accusations :)
the tags today are gold by timmarhy · 2009-07-25 20:53 · Score: 5, Funny

"morekdawsoncrap"
who ever is tagging these is a legend.

--
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
1. Re:the tags today are gold by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 21:04 · Score: 0
  
  Being dissed on the front page. Ouch.
2. Re:the tags today are gold by timmarhy · 2009-07-25 21:18 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  it's fitting. he is by far the worse "editor" i've ever come across.
  
  --
  If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
3. Re:the tags today are gold by troll8901 · 2009-07-25 21:44 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  kdawson's posted stories, IMO, are not too bad and sometimes actually worth reading. I for one, am not filtering him out in my Slashdot Preferences.
  I'd browsed the Firehose a few months back, and I was surprised by the sheer number of story submissions. It's a tough decision to pick the best ones for the day.
You have to know that .. by Henk+Poley · 2009-07-25 20:56 · Score: 5, Interesting

You have to know that 'major' German PC enthusiast magazines have been publishing tutorials monthly about using Linux since around 2000. Together with installation CDs/DVDs etc. Also their government has a strong push towards using Linux.
1. Re:You have to know that .. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 21:23 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  You also have to know that quite a lot of FreeDOS-equipped notebooks are sold in Germany, because people around here just like to use DOS. Come on, the first thing people do with these Linux and DOS notebooks is install a copy of Windows (MSDN-AA, Windows 7 RC or plain illegal copies.)
2. Re:You have to know that .. by rolfwind · 2009-07-25 21:36 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Also their government has a strong push towards using Linux.
  They are being smart in that case. The Chinese, too, have their own Linux Distro (Red Flag) -- which government really wants the foundation of their computers (the OS) to be dependent on an American company, not to mention all the possible backdoors built for the FBI/NSA/CIA/etc. OTOH, many agencies of the US Government force you to use Windows in order to deal with them, rather than having an open standard.
  I WANT to buy a Linux-based netbook. EEEPC, used to have a model which they upgraded with an SSD drive if you chose the linux option. But the netbook world moves fast, and that model is 6-9 months out of date although still offered. It might not sound like a big deal, but there are netbooks coming on the market with ~1300 x ~750 resolution (good for today's websites) instead of just 1024x600 and capable of actually playing HD video with the upgraded chipsets. But no linux version is offered. Has been that way with any new models released since February as far as I can tell. That's too bad.
  And my local Walmart doesn't seem to care. Been offering the same Acer Aspire model (1GB ram and all) since the beginning of the year with no changes.
3. Re:You have to know that .. by maxwell+demon · 2009-07-25 22:47 · Score: 1
  
  While I can imagine that some people buy FreeDOS computers (or computers without any OS; yes, you can get them) in order to put Windows on it (either because they want a non-OEM version they can move to their next computer, or they already have one; of course this includes those who have illegal copies), I don't think the same is true for Linux computers. And of course there are a lot of people who install Linux on a computer which came without it (and even on computers which came with Windows).
  
  --
  The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
4. Re:You have to know that .. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 23:06 · Score: 0
  
  I bought a Linux laptop last Tuesday. The sales clerk, without me asking for installation help or anything, mentioned that I should change the SATA mode from "AHCI" to "IDE" in the BIOS if I wanted to install Windows or the Windows installer wouldn't be able to find the hard disk. You see, that was in a city with a university where students have access to MSDN-AA: No need to pay for another Windows license. 2009 is not the year of the Linux desktop, not in Germany, not anywhere.
  (NLite instead of IDE mode. I got that, thank you. That's beside the point.)
5. Re:You have to know that .. by derGoldstein · 2009-07-25 23:54 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Whenever I hear about Linux in Germany, I think about the Munich migration. There's an ongoing debate as to whether or not it "is succeeding" or "will succeed".
  Last time this came up on /. was a month ago.
  The migration project is called LiMux, and you'll find many places online that campaign against it (or strongly criticize it, sometimes it's hard to tell).
  But overall I think it's very good news that consumers are making a conscious decision, with their own wallets.
  
  --
  Entomologically speaking, the spider is not a bug, it's a feature.
6. Re:You have to know that .. by ZosX · 2009-07-25 23:58 · Score: 1
  
  So just wait for the laptop you want and buy it and install linux on it. Its not likely you are going to save much if anything on a windows free laptop and it sure isn't like linux costs anything to install. Just find something that gets good linux reviews and be happy.
  
  --
  zosxavius photography
7. Re:You have to know that .. by kamapuaa · 2009-07-26 01:48 · Score: 1
  
  They are being smart in that case. The Chinese, too, have their own Linux Distro (Red Flag) -- which government really wants the foundation of their computers (the OS) to be dependent on an American company,
  It's amazing that you can claim to speak for the Chinese government and their inside motivations. The Chinese government has never given an official policy on Red Flag Linux. The Chinese government is as opaque as mud as really their motivations can only be guessed at my experts, not firmly declared by half-informed Slashdot users. But they definitely have not given Red Flag Linux a strong push - with the Chinese government gives a strong push, motherfuckers get run over by tanks.
  I work in the Shanghai IT industry and occasionally use Internet cafes and I can firmly say that I have never once ever seen Red Flag Linux either in use or for sale. Laptops are often advertised as being sold with Linux, but it's well known that that's just a codeword for "we install bootleg Windows on the computer."
  
  --
  Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
8. Re:You have to know that .. by trboyden · 2009-07-26 02:03 · Score: 1
  
  Wait a couple to a few weeks. The white box resellers are getting their hands on new ultra thin and light notebooks from Intel that are similar in design to the MacBook Air, but priced between netbooks and mainstream notebooks - approx. $800 - $1000. They weigh as much as netbooks, have a 13.3" LED LCD display, and come with a new low-power dual-core processor. My supplier told me they should be in stock Monday.
9. Re:You have to know that .. by Nerdfest · 2009-07-26 02:03 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  It sucks to pay the Windows tax. There seems to b a bit more hope for those of us that would like to get the laptops without paying the cost of a copy of Windows that we're not going to use, and is non-transferable (Amazon UK, and maybe Dell).
10. Re:You have to know that .. by Hurricane78 · 2009-07-26 04:14 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Don't worry. In autumn a whole new generation of "smartbooks" will come out. Full-HD capable, 1-2 watt, 10 hours of running, and $100-$200.
  With an ARM CPU. So they won't be able to run any Windows. You can guess what they will mostly be running. (Linux.) :D
  
  --
  Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
11. Re:You have to know that .. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 04:55 · Score: 0
  
  I bought an eepc with XP and installed full blown Ubuntu (also upgraded memory to 2G. It works GREAT!. There were some issues with the microphone that no one at Asus or on the official Ubuntu blogs had an answer for. Eventually I found that it was just a configuration settings issue, simple when you know how. I'm extremely satisfied with the netbook.
12. Re:You have to know that .. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 07:00 · Score: 0
  
  Be warned. That "new" version of which you speak uses the Poulsbo chipset. Search the internet for GMA500 and Linux or Poulsbo and Linux, and you'll soon understand why that version is not sold with Linux...
13. Re:You have to know that .. by selven · 2009-07-26 15:55 · Score: 1
  
  The other big advantage of getting computers with Linux pre-installed is that everything works out of the box.
14. Re:You have to know that .. by Lost+Engineer · 2009-07-27 07:08 · Score: 1
  
  Windows CE runs on ARM.
15. Re:You have to know that .. by Hurricane78 · 2009-07-27 11:40 · Score: 1
  
  I talked about operating systems for real computers. :)
  
  --
  Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Forced to be MS client by Fri13 · 2009-07-25 21:00 · Score: 5, Interesting

I wanted to buy a sub-notebook (aka netbook) with linux but I could not find such on my country anywhere from shelf itself. Ordering could over one month and the extra bucks was included when comparing windows. Biggest resellers are just simply saying that Linux versions has be sold out since start and about 6 months ago they were marked such that they will not come back to the selling lines. So only way to get such computer is to buy it with Windows. Even that I never booted Windows but throw right in the mandriva disk and installed it over windows.
It is not nice to be forced to be MS client in statics but not a client for Linux OS. At least Mandriva could get their own static about me because I registered this machine too for their database.
If world would be fair, I could call to MS or Asus and say that I want my information of selling be removed from statics as MS user.
1. Re:Forced to be MS client by rdnetto · 2009-07-25 23:31 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Why not ask for a refund on the cost of Windows?
  
  --
  Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
2. Re:Forced to be MS client by Menkhaf · 2009-07-26 00:58 · Score: 1
  
  Ordering could over one month and the extra bucks was included when comparing windows.
  You accidentally what?
  
  --
  A proud member of the Onion-in-Hand alliance
3. Re:Forced to be MS client by Fri13 · 2009-07-26 02:51 · Score: 1
  
  The price is not the problem. But that I am counted as +1 in MS statics. I am one client more for MS/OEM's to use against Linux as proof that Windows is sold and wanted more than Linux.
  And about getting refund of Windows License, it is not worth of the fighting with MS here about 10 euros. It takes few months to get refund and even then I am not removed from the OEM's register that I did not buy windows but linux version.
  It is almost impossible to vote with the wallet on the current market situation because MS controls everything. If there just would be even _possibility_ to select Linux version, many would do so. But because every amount of Linux versions are non-existing or so limited that it takes very long time to get such, it is win-win situation for MS every way.
4. Re:Forced to be MS client by hitmark · 2009-07-26 05:14 · Score: 1
  
  because its a very roundabout, and redundant way of getting rid of something one did not want in the first place?
  
  --
  comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
5. Re:Forced to be MS client by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 05:57 · Score: 0
  
  oh, there's a shortage of electrons, again :-(
6. Re:Forced to be MS client by rdnetto · 2009-07-26 15:59 · Score: 1
  
  I'll admit that it is extremely difficult and not worth the effort. The point I was trying to make was that getting the discount counts against the no. of Windows users. At best you'd come out neutral, but if enough people do so it becomes more profitable for the OEMs to include Linux as a default option than to spend the extra labour handling refunds.
  
  --
  Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
cheap laptop by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 21:04 · Score: 0, Informative

I'd buy one with Linux too. Then promptly put a pirate copy of Windows on it. It's the cheaper way to get the same thing.
1. Re:cheap laptop by MrMr · 2009-07-25 21:20 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  I presume you have discovered the cheaper way to acquire your groceries as well?
2. Re:cheap laptop by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 21:58 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Grow your own?
3. Re:cheap laptop by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 22:05 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  The fact is, many people see software as something that comes with your PC, as they are used to buying OEM bundles. When they see a cheaper option, they will go for it, and let their IT friend take care of setting it up for them. The conversation goes:
  buyer: "Put windows on it" ...
  it guy: "but you don't have a copy"...
  buyer: "can't I just use yours?"...
  it guy: "ok, whatever".. proceeds to install it with a key/crack downloaded from the web.
4. Re:cheap laptop by burni · 2009-07-25 22:56 · Score: 1
  
  Yep in germany these are cheap too.
5. Re:cheap laptop by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 23:43 · Score: 0
  
  Pirated Windows is more valuable than Free Linux. It's an economic fact that bothers the hell out of lying Linux zealots, and I love it!
6. Re:cheap laptop by nagnamer · 2009-07-27 02:06 · Score: 1
  
  I'd buy one with Linux too. Then promptly put a pirate copy of Windows on it. It's the cheaper way to get the same thing.
  Didn't know they sold laptops with pirated Windows on them (especially if they cost more than Linux laptops).
  
  --
  Every harsh word you utter has the right address. It only sounds harsh because the one on the envelope is the wrong one.
Why thank you by Norsefire · 2009-07-25 21:11 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I tagged it as that in "the mysterious future" (although it's not called that anymore, it shows the time the story will appear to everyone).

It's the best way to make tags "stick". Before it appears to everyone there's very little tagging going on, so basically any tag will show up as a "top tag", as soon as it hits the mainpage other people see the tag and tag it the same. Say for example it was tagged "linux, netbook, germany, godwinslaw, amazon, it, otherstuff" and one person tagged it "morekdawsoncrap", the tag wouldn't be popular enough to show up so that everyone else does the same.

KD will probably use his infinite-editor mod points to destroy my karma now though :(
Linux notebooks? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 21:12 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm sorry to say that, but I doubt that this shows a rising interest in Linux from mainstream customers in Germany. If you look at the customer reviews for the Asus notebook (in German) you will find out that a lot of comments deal with removing Linux and replacing it with either Vista oder Windows 7. Naturally, customer reviews are not a representative survey but I guess a lot of people simple save the money for the OS and install pirated copies of Windows.
1. Re:Linux notebooks? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 05:24 · Score: 0
  
  Why are you linking to websites in German? Here on the internet, everyone should speak American.
2. Re:Linux notebooks? by clarkn0va · 2009-07-26 16:26 · Score: 1
  
  Although I've never admitted it before now, I've been using this secret tactic to save money on Linux for years: I buy a cheap computer with Windows on it, sneak it home, and then just install Linux over it right away! Why pay retail for Linux?
  
  --
  I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen
Experiment by dargaud · 2009-07-25 21:14 · Score: 5, Interesting

Like many here I admin family computers. A month ago I did an experiment. I told my parents I'd upgrade their aging computer (mobo and main HD change) and as such it would look different. I installed kubuntu instead of the previous system (which you can easily guess). Made sure there were desktop links to firefox, kmail, dolphin and a SD card image transfer script. I didn't even show them the result, just as an experiment. And I left. They called only once after a week: "Yeah it works fine, but we don't have skype anymore", which I promptly remotely installed. I consider this experiment a great success.

--
Non-Linux Penguins ?
1. Re:Experiment by WarJolt · 2009-07-25 21:25 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I did a similar experiment. I installed Xubuntu on a 166MHz laptop to see if it would run well enough to be usable. Then I asked someone to give it a shot and compare it with her laptop running windows XP and had at least 2GHz processor. After she browsed a few web pages, I asked "Which is faster; Your laptop or this one?" She quickly replied "This one". I chuckled because I knew the truth. This laptop was at least 10x slower than her laptop.
2. Re:Experiment by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 22:00 · Score: 0
  
  I converted a friend to GNU/linux by showing him that puppy linux runs faster on a pentium 1 133MHz laptop than vista did on his dualcore 2.x GHz PC. He then switched to openSUSE, painlessly because he doesn't play any games.
3. Re:Experiment by Jaro · 2009-07-25 22:32 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  Well.... I had a Linux Laptop, Pentium 133Mhz - 48mb of RAM, Slackware 10 running until recently. I ran Opera 6 and Firefox 0.7 on it because anything higher wasn't acceptable ----> it was soooooooo slow. Then with all the Javascript and Flash going around which 1. mostly doesn't work on such an old browser version and 2. it nearly kills the machine, if it runs. I really really can't image what wondrous 133Mhz system you had which could do what you say. I ran X with UWM, a small, very very lightweight window manager. Then there was no office suite which would run at an acceptable speed, so I had to use a plain text editor for simple notes, writing LaTeX if I needed a formated output. Maybe if you only use the console and links it might work....
  Sorry, I can't believe you.
4. Re:Experiment by bemymonkey · 2009-07-25 22:47 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  It's a bit unfair to compare a fresh Xubuntu install to a crapware infested aeons-old XP install...
  XP runs like a champ (at least in terms of speed) if you keep it clean and the hardware manufacturers manage to write proper drivers...
5. Re:Experiment by Fri13 · 2009-07-25 22:53 · Score: 1
  
  I used P133Mhz and 144Mb RAM on 800x600px screen with latest puppylinux and DSL. Both worked very fine when using just writing for emails and documents or file management. Boottime was under 15 seconds and usage was nice if you can say so with such keyboard and stick-mouse and screen size.
  But using Firefox was very fine (2.x series) as long as the websites did not have flash on them or heavy JS like slashdot. Basic usage was fine with those machine but the quality of screen resolution made it worse.
  P133Mhz computer is fine with over 96Mb RAM when needing just simple writer computer. But I would just buy so cheap computer as possible under 100$ somewhere and push for such over 1Ghz computer same system and it would FLY!
  P133Mhz is great for servers and very basic desktop use, but not great otherwise. P3 500Mhz is very great too, but more is needed for flash.
6. Re:Experiment by itsdapead · 2009-07-25 22:57 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I installed kubuntu instead of the previous system (which you can easily guess). Made sure there were desktop links to firefox, kmail, dolphin and a SD card image transfer script.
  ...and there, I suspect, is the real secret to converting Windows users: first, recognize that your users don't care about KDE vs. Gnome holy war and give them the one that comes out of the gate looking more like Windows than a Mac. Second, a bit of intelligent customization to ensure that they can find the apps they use every day and disguise the fact that they now have different, wacky, names. Third, good after-"sales" support (I'm sure the staff at Buy More would have told them that Skype was windows-only :-) ).
  Of course, that's better than you get when you buy Windows (or even Mac) but they have million-buck advertising campaigns and sales incentives instead so they don't need good service.
  
  --
  In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
7. Re:Experiment by Dan541 · 2009-07-25 23:18 · Score: 1
  
  The real trick is to trade laptops, people will think their getting a good deal with the "Faster" one.
  
  --
  An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
8. Re:Experiment by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 23:50 · Score: 0
  
  No, not buying it. First, most Linux zealots lie as easily as a fish swims in water so these stores aren't as precious as you might think they are. Second, any Skype user who has used the Windows client would take one look at the Linux version and instantly know something is very wrong. Particularly if they were using the newer Skype 4.0, which is so far ahead of the Linux version it's sad.
9. Re:Experiment by MMC+Monster · 2009-07-25 23:54 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  The thing is, most XP installations accumulate crap that slow it down in a year or two.
  The only way to clean it up is a fresh install, which most end users don't know how to do (or are too afraid to do).
  Linux doesn't fill up with crap. That being said, it doesn't fill up with crap because crap writers don't target Linux (yet).
  
  --
  Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
10. Re:Experiment by bemymonkey · 2009-07-25 23:56 · Score: 1
  
  Hmmm, I dunno, I've pretty much stopped reformatting. I run a few anti-malware programs once a month (no background scanners, just good old manual scans regularly) and my installs have remained clean for ages.
11. Re:Experiment by ZosX · 2009-07-26 00:02 · Score: 1
  
  That's what I was thinking. I'm reading this on a P3-1ghz /w 512mb RAM running kubuntu 9.04. A 2ghz machine of any breed would smoke this thing. Of course running kubuntu 9.04 doesn't help, but hey at least I'm using swiftfox and it is indeed a lot faster.
  
  --
  zosxavius photography
12. Re:Experiment by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 00:15 · Score: 0
  
  Do you actually believe that comparing a 166MHz laptop with Xubuntu with a 2GHz laptop with XP is an unfair comparison to XP? If an OS lets a 2GHz laptop slow down and drag on like a 166MHz laptop with a fresh install then that's a clear sign that that OS suffers from serious problems that affect more than efficiency.
13. Re:Experiment by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 00:41 · Score: 0
  
  Unfair? To judge a 166MHz against a 2GHz processor? Seems more than fair judging it likely also has a faster hdd, RAM, north bridge, etc.
  I'd say at the least, it is amazing how much faster computers have gotten in the last decade, and yet general tasks seem to take the same or nearly the same time.
14. Re:Experiment by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 00:47 · Score: 0
  
  Aren't they getting better, then? Faster is better, whatever the reason.
15. Re:Experiment by Draek · 2009-07-26 00:50 · Score: 1
  
  RAM, RAM, RAM, Linux more than anything loves RAM. I have a P1 166mhz laptop with 80 MBs of RAM with Debian and IceWM, Opera 9 ran pretty nicely as long as you kept your tab count below ~25 or so, and Abiword was a bit sluggish but still usable.
  The big problem of using such a computer today is Flash which even with Gnash instead of Adobe's plugin its a CPU and memory hog (it even makes my current 1 Ghz laptop die a quick and painful death), but if the websites you browse to don't require it there's nothing stopping you from using such a machine as a basic desktop.
  
  --
  No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
16. Re:Experiment by Salsaman · 2009-07-26 00:59 · Score: 1
  
  The thing is, to keep it clean you have to run virus checkers, spyware removers, adware removers, etc, etc. Windows is just too hard for the average consumer.
17. Re:Experiment by hodet · 2009-07-26 01:53 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  My experience is same as yours but parent has a point for regular users. Case in point, I install the Tom Tom GPS software on my system and it installs a craplet in the systray. Your everyday user leaves the craplet there along with the other ones they have accumulated over weeks/month/years. There is absolutely no reason for TomTom to run every time I boot up, sucking up cycles. The simple act of cleaning up after installs is probably one of the best things you can do to keep your system running well (of course there are many other things too). I run XP on an AthlonXP 2600 with 512Meg of ram and it runs well. Original install in 2003. I have sisters whose machines were purchased after mine that I have reinstalled twice because they have slowed down with time. Firefox/Thunderbird,AV software,Windows Updates,occasional spyware scans, clean out the craplets. Not much more complicated then that.
18. Re:Experiment by SleepingWaterBear · 2009-07-26 01:58 · Score: 1
  
  XP runs like a champ (at least in terms of speed) if you keep it clean and the hardware manufacturers manage to write proper drivers...
  This is just it; it takes significant expertise to make a year old windows machine run smoothly. People claim that windows is easier to use than Linux, but when I was running XP I needed a lot more knowledge and a lot more effort to keep it working right. I have known so many people who own a perfectly good machine one or two years old, and it's basically unusable because they haven't done proper maintenance. For the average user windows is just a bad choice.
  The funny thing is, with proper driver support a well configured XP system without too much bloat installed will in fact run faster than most Linux distros. I know I'm sort of preaching to the choir here, but the idea that you need to be an expert to use Linux seems common even around here, so I felt the point deserved expanding upon.
19. Re:Experiment by sammyF70 · 2009-07-26 02:08 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Similar story here.
  I had the opportunity to buy an height year old Toshiba laptop very cheap from the company I used to work for. My mom's computer had died a while ago, so I told her I'd give her this one, but it would be "slightly different". I installed Ubuntu 8.04 on it (gnome). After explaining to her that Word and Excel were now called "Open Office" I left her alone with it. I never had any complaints, but what's more, I never got any "my computer is slow" calls anymore neither. This was even so clear to her, that a few weeks ago her best friend called me to ask me if I could install "the windows your mom has" on her computer, after she had had another one of those "YOUR VIRUS IS INFECTED" popups appear
  The thing is : for a standard (Internet browser / Email / IM / Fotos / Movies / Music / Wordprocessor / Spreadsheet) user, Linux is not only ready for the desktop, it should be mandatory
  
  --
  "DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
20. Re:Experiment by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 02:15 · Score: 0
  
  The same people are developing it. It's not open source. The linux version works fine and is no uglier than skype 2.0 for windows. Bitch at the skype devs, why don't you.
21. Re:Experiment by Youngbull · 2009-07-26 04:12 · Score: 1
  
  to be fair. The crap usually comes with IE 6 (aka herpes) and either upgrading to IE8 or changing to firefox does stop a lot of that stuff from coming through. The funny thing is that IE6 is (by these statistics) still used by 12.78% of all users. An updated xp install usually runs a lot smoother then what it used to back when IE6 was big. Too bad I still see a lot of IE6 around everywhere even on my school campus I see them on some of the machines. But big thanks to the university for having Fedora on almost 50% of the machines.
22. Re:Experiment by Weedhopper · 2009-07-26 05:27 · Score: 1
  
  Oh yeah?
  I took an old TRS-80 and installed Gentoo. Once I optimized for speed, it ran so fast, web pages were loading before I could even turn on the computer.
23. Re:Experiment by hitmark · 2009-07-26 05:29 · Score: 1
  
  to bad acer and asus fubled by using less then up to date distros for their netbooks...
  
  --
  comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
24. Re:Experiment by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 07:39 · Score: 0
  
  Linux doesn't fill up with crap because it doesn't use that horrible botch that is the Windows registry. The increasing slowness is due to bloat and corruption of registry entries. Linux applications use their own text configuration files and not a central registry and therefore are not susceptible to this phenomenon.
25. Re:Experiment by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 08:06 · Score: 1, Funny
  
  That being said, it doesn't fill up with crap because crap writers don't target Linux (yet).
  Nonsense, adobe reader, adobe flash and realplayer all have linux versions ;)
26. Re:Experiment by bemymonkey · 2009-07-26 08:38 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, I do believe that it's an unfair comparison, the problem here being that the bottleneck in a crapware infested system is often the hard drive, which is probably not much slower in the 166MHz system.
  You don't need a lot of CPU cycles to run an OS ;).
27. Re:Experiment by bemymonkey · 2009-07-26 08:39 · Score: 1
  
  Limiting factor with lots of crapware, like I stated in reply to someone else here, is probably the hard drive, and that's likely to be similarly fast on the older machine...
28. Re:Experiment by bemymonkey · 2009-07-26 08:41 · Score: 1
  
  Yah, but it's easier to run a virus scanner, spyware remover and adware remover (or even two of each) than it is to get Ubuntu running on a system that isn't fully supported ;)...
  Think of it this way: Those virus, spyware and adware scanners all have user-friendly GUIs. Linux has GUIs that don't always work, and a CLI... which one do you think inexperienced users are going to choose?
29. Re:Experiment by bemymonkey · 2009-07-26 08:43 · Score: 1
  
  Very good point. That's the only way to keep Windows fast with a lot of programs installed... it's also the reason my father thinks that filling hard drive space slows down computers - he doesn't realize that all the programs filling his hard drive also installed system tray apps...
30. Re:Experiment by bemymonkey · 2009-07-26 08:44 · Score: 1
  
  That's a good point - if I were willing to spend time learning to use Linux (and had the time), I'm sure it wouldn't be more work than using Windows.
  Using Windows is just the lesser of two evils.
31. Re:Experiment by mgblst · 2009-07-26 11:47 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, sure. XP runs like a champ, 8 years after it was first released, on hardware about 10x the speed it was written for. So yeah, XP runs pretty good, so would Amiga OS on your current computer.
32. Re:Experiment by mgblst · 2009-07-26 11:57 · Score: 1
  
  It is fine for these people, the problem is when you get people with a little bit, and want to install their own programs, or they need something for work. This is where it will make people unhappy.
  The good thing is though as we move to more web based apps, we need less propriety programs.
33. Re:Experiment by sammyF70 · 2009-07-26 12:56 · Score: 1
  The standard user doesn't want to install his own program (or if he does, it's some weird windows95 accounting program he found in the sales bin at his local store, and which runs probably better in wine than it would on XP, let alone Vista). Generally, people don't even KNOW they can install anything. They are rather happy with what is on their computer by default (until MS-Office and Norton start complaining that the 30 days trial is over and that they should pay)
  As to "needing something to work", it's irrelevant in this case. Some people who need something special which can not be found (and for which there exists no equivalent) are :
  
  people *NEEDING* photoshop. Not as in "I need photoshop because it's l33t" but as in "I need Photoshop because it has some unique function I absolutely need for work, and my employer is too stingy to allow me to use the office computers. For most people, even GIMP is a complete overkill, and for most people who need an advanced graphic editor but don't need some of the more esoteric tools from photoshop, it's more than powerful enough (not going in a debate about whether Gimp's UI sucks or not. It's really just a matter of being used to it, exactly like Photoshop's which isn't particularly noob friendly neither)
  People needing to create FLASH stuff. I wouldn't call them exactly "standard users", and yes, then they are out of luck (although Flash runs well in WINE as far as I know)
  Other professionals with VERY specific needs (not "I need a tool to edit my videos" but "I need AVID XPress Pro".) Those aren't the majority of users. They have very specific needs, which most users just don't have
  Remember that I'm not talking about the slashdot crowd here. I'm talking about the girl behind the counter at your local grocery store who manically checks facebook and tweeter and has 10 IM windows open, or the retired car salesman who wants to keep in touch with his old colleagues and to send angry comments to NYT editors about their latest article.
  Those people don't care (and seldom knows) whether they are using windows XP, Vista or some brand of Linux (they generally know when they are running MacOSX, although I'm wild-guessing they couldn't tell you which version). All they want is something which works ... and Linux does that (nowadays)
  --
  "DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
34. Re:Experiment by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 14:02 · Score: 0
  
  My wife was a long time WIndows user, but then I asked her what apps she was using, Open Office, Firefox, GizmoProject, ICQ, etc. Most of the time she is just on Facebook or using OpenOffice. Removed Vista from her machine and installed Linux Mint, instant speed improvement! She was very happy, and hasn't looked back. Actually, she complained how crappy Outlook was compared to Korganiser the other day after having to use Outlook for work at a customer site.
35. Re:Experiment by checkup21 · 2009-07-26 23:27 · Score: 1
  
  absolutely. My mom uses it too. She is 64 years old and is working with it since nearly a year now.
36. Re:Experiment by nagnamer · 2009-07-27 01:22 · Score: 1
  
  That being said, it doesn't fill up with crap because crap writers don't target Linux (yet).
  Nonsense, adobe reader, adobe flash and realplayer all have linux versions ;)
  Not to mention the slowness Flash player causes in Firefox. At least on my lowly CeleronM-driven laptop.
  
  --
  Every harsh word you utter has the right address. It only sounds harsh because the one on the envelope is the wrong one.
37. Re:Experiment by nagnamer · 2009-07-27 01:26 · Score: 1
  
  Yah, but it's easier to run a virus scanner, spyware remover and adware remover (or even two of each) than it is to get Ubuntu running on a system that isn't fully supported ;)...
  It's not quite the same thing, but a friend of mine is using a fully supported laptop. So, a logical question would be: Does she cope with anti-whatever-ware install, or would she rather install Linux? The answer is neither. She gets me to do either, so I get to choose.
  And since she doesn't really do any maintenance to speak of, Windows XP on her laptop, for me it's much less pain to simply install Ubuntu, which I will do soon.
  
  --
  Every harsh word you utter has the right address. It only sounds harsh because the one on the envelope is the wrong one.
38. Re:Experiment by nagnamer · 2009-07-27 01:45 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, Flash is a big fat hog. Just yesterday, I kept a page open which had some 5 pieces of Flash ads on it. CPU was constantly at 100%. I went out to take a break, and when I came back, the laptop just died the moment I touched the mouse. That's just one page, and the whole thing overheated.
  
  --
  Every harsh word you utter has the right address. It only sounds harsh because the one on the envelope is the wrong one.
39. Re:Experiment by Lost+Engineer · 2009-07-27 07:11 · Score: 1
  
  recognize that your users don't care about KDE vs. Gnome holy war
  Blasphemy! We need more fodder for the front lines.
40. Re:Experiment by rantingkitten · 2009-07-28 05:07 · Score: 1
  
  it doesn't fill up with crap because crap writers don't target Linux (yet).
  
  It also doesn't fill with crap because the expected way to get software is from the repositories, which are vetted and verified. A normal user would only have to get stuff from a third party under rather specific, special circumstances.
  
  Contrast that with Windows where it is completely normal and expected to download random, untrusted, and often closed binaries from the web and run them. Big surprise, tons of them are bundled with crap you don't want or need which quickly bog down the OS.
  
  Let's not forget the stupidity that is the Windows registry. Is anyone surprised that thing gets bloated and broken within a short period of time and drags the whole system down with it?
  
  --
  mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
Not surprising by aepervius · 2009-07-25 21:17 · Score: 1

It does not sound surprising, knowing it is the country of origin of the Chaos Computer Club...

--
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
The Germans... by Malfourmed · 2009-07-25 21:43 · Score: 3, Funny

It's just a guess, but "Even the Germans make some bad choices" does not exactly bring out the best memories from the World's History...
Don't mention the war!!

--
a world in progress...
1. Re:The Germans... by Quantos · 2009-07-25 22:07 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  Now how was he 'Offtopic', that was damned funny.
  
  --
  Some people are only alive because it's against the law for me to hunt them down and kill them.
2. Re:The Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 22:39 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it.
3. Re:The Germans... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 03:13 · Score: 0
  
  Can't you see she's upset - would you stop mentioning the war!?!?!
4. Re:The Germans... by Martin+P.+Hellwig · 2009-07-26 05:51 · Score: 1
  
  Tsss you must be an American, Germany was never involved in the war on terror.
  
  --
  If consumed, best digested with added seasoning to own preference.
5. Re:The Germans... by dissolved · 2009-07-26 08:39 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  you started it!
Ah the Germans by dandart · 2009-07-25 21:49 · Score: 1

Why can't more of us be like them?
1. Re:Ah the Germans by burni · 2009-07-25 22:45 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  **IRONY ON** Our minister for internal affairs Mr. Wolfgang Schäuble: - hates the internet - wants to censor it - wants to control it, and he has a strong meaning on immigration, if you are coming from the liberal U.S. you are not welcome here, you could induce liberal thoughts in too many of my fellow citizen. Thats why there won't be more of you like us, you simply won't get the citizenship. **IRONY OFF** Na, it's not that hard to get the german citizenship, we like americans, also we do like most of our western EU-neighbours, and our population is decreasing if you want to join the club, do it now ;)
2. Re:Ah the Germans by dandart · 2009-07-25 22:55 · Score: 1
  
  Yes,, and we ALL want censorship!
3. Re:Ah the Germans by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 06:41 · Score: 0
  
  I'm sure you don't like your eastern neighbours though or the Turks you've imported to do the dirty work. Ne?
Great choice by dandart · 2009-07-25 21:51 · Score: 1

The best choice, dunno why we can't make the same one.
1. Re:Great choice by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 00:26 · Score: 0
  
  Congratulations, you're a faggot.
Nonsense by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 21:54 · Score: 1, Interesting

This news is indeed nonsense.
All notebooks in the list come with a command-line version of Linux. There is no Desktop/Graphical environment pre-installed on these Notebooks. I bought one of these Acer Notebooks and I was actually shocked that they were pre-installing an absolutely useless Linux version.
This means, a roughly estimated 100% of buyers install their own operating system on these notebooks....and this means usually Windows XP. On my notebook, Ubuntu Linux is running great, but I guess that only a small percentage of buyers is going to install a Linux version.
However, the most important question is, why Acer does not pre-install a decent Linux distribution?
1. Re:Nonsense by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 22:25 · Score: 0
  
  However, the most important question is, why Acer does not pre-install a decent Linux distribution?
  I bought a "Linux" laptop this week, and even though the OS was going to be replaced by an existing installation of Windows XP from a broken laptop, I took a look at the preinstalled Linux: It was a version of Linpus Linux and I found it to be quite usable actually. All the usual suspects were there: Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, etc. It even had a driver for the fan, which is much louder under Windows XP where Acer does not supply an ACPI control software. I had to hunt for a third party applet. All in all, if I had to choose between pirating Windows or using the installed Linux, Linux would win, at least when the notebook is used just for the typical small office stuff. Nevertheless, with the Windows installation being legal and Windows-only software and a heap of data on the old notebook, transplanting Windows XP over Linpus was the obvious choice.
People want the hardware, not Linux by Jaro · 2009-07-25 21:58 · Score: 1, Informative

If you take the time and have the language skills to the read the comment you'll see that at least 75% of the comments are related to how people can install XP/Vista or reports by people who report how easy it was to install XP/Vista. People just buy these notebooks to get the cheap hardware without included Microsoft licensing costs and the throw their pirated copy of Windows on them. And those people who actually use Linux will probably install their own preferred flavor of Linux on it. The product description even says "XP/Vista drivers included". So get real - this is not a Linux revolution, people are not switching to Linux, they are just running because these things are cheap! So real lesson we learn: People like to buy cheap notebooks and install Windows on their own, instead of buy more expensive notebooks with the Microsoft licensing costs already included.
look at the user comments by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 22:09 · Score: 0

The vast majority of 4-5 star ratings come from those who are excited about the hardware and about how easy it is to flatten everything and put Linux on it. One or two there are who flattened everthing and put some Ubuntu on it to be equally excited. The bad ratings came from two buyers who said that the Linux installed was just unusable, not even X being properly installed and some bits of the hardware not being supported at all (well, a user comment, maybe he has not yahooed enough).
Summary: it is bought as a Windows machine, not as a Linux machine, even though solely Linux ships with it. And the vendor apparently just forgot to explicitly mention that in the product's description.
Those statistics are pretty much false... by bemymonkey · 2009-07-25 22:33 · Score: 4, Interesting

False positives - I live in Germany, and of the 10 people I know who've bought laptops in the last year, 7 went with FreeDos/Linux notebooks. The first thing they did when they got them was to install XP Pro...
I also bought a Linux notebook (well, netbook) and put XP on it...
I don't know a lot of people who buy Linux laptops to run Linux...
1. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by markdavis · 2009-07-25 23:43 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  And what about the false negatives?
  Since there are so few Linux-pre-installed laptops, most people that do want to run Linux are forced to purchase one with MS Windows preloaded on it and then install Linux. These are counted as MS Windows sales. Unfortunately, they also continue to fuel the machine that prevents choice in the first place.
  Anyway, every laptop/notebook I have purchased in the last 15 years has forced MS Windows on it, with the sole exception of the Asus EEE 1000 I purchased from Amazon, and that model is now discontinued.
  I know a lot of people who buy MS Windows laptops to run Linux (granted, I am active in a Unix User's Group).
2. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by bemymonkey · 2009-07-25 23:46 · Score: 1
  
  Good point, but I'm willing to bet that the number of Linux-on-Windows-Laptop users is a lot smaller than Windows-on-Linux-Laptop users :)
3. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 00:07 · Score: 0
  
  Where did they (and you) get Windows XP ? Are you violaiting MS EULA and moving an OEM license from one PC to another ? ...or are you students and use Educational License ?
4. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 00:44 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, who the hell wants to run linux.
  I bought mine to run OpenBSD.
5. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 00:58 · Score: 0
  
  EULAs aren't binding in Germany because they're not shown until the sale is final. OEM licenses can legally be moved to another PC.
6. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by sammyF70 · 2009-07-26 02:14 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Would "I bought a linux netbook, and the first thing I did was install a *SANE* linux distribution (Ubuntu 8.10) on it instead of the PoS that is Linpus" count as a false positive too?
  Let's face it, people who don't know the first thing about linux MUST be turned down by the weird distros found on linux netbooks these days
  
  --
  "DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
7. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by markdavis · 2009-07-26 02:30 · Score: 1
  
  Probably.
  But also keep in mind that some people do own a legal and transferable license for MS-Windows and don't want to have to buy it again. Purchasing the Linux version might be as close to "blank" as they can get.
  Of course, you and I both know that MORE people are just illegally loading MS-Windows.
  I look forward to a day when we are not forced to buy ANY OS with ANY computer. I just hope that day will come.
8. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 04:01 · Score: 0
  
  Totally true - all my friends bought these and put Windows on it. Don't quote these netbook sales as a Linux success, or you'll get thrown into one pot with the software pirates in the great big ethics debate.
9. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by Elektroschock · 2009-07-26 04:14 · Score: 1
  
  I know several persons with Linux Laptops. In particular IT professionals use Linux.
10. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 05:11 · Score: 0
  
  If 27% (3/11) kept Linux on the laptop, that's quite a bit more than any published survey of Linux usage.
11. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by bemymonkey · 2009-07-26 08:36 · Score: 1
  
  Mostly students with MSDNAA in my group of friends.
12. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by bemymonkey · 2009-07-26 08:48 · Score: 1
  
  You're right, but I don't quite understand the connection - you've switched to a different subject here ;)
  I was just saying that not many people buy Linux laptops to actually run Linux on them - whether or not they pay for Windows or whatever other operating system they run is irrelevant :)
13. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by bemymonkey · 2009-07-26 08:54 · Score: 1
  
  That's just it - those other 3 bought Vista/Vista w/ Downgrade laptops. Not a single one of my friends who've bought laptops in the past year actually bought them to run Linux - unless you count the obligatory Ubuntu/Knoppix/SysRescueCD live-CD for troubleshooting.
  In fact, I know very few (3) people who run Linux - one on a decade-old laptop that won't run XP (although he also has an openMoko phone that runs some form of Debian), one on a DAW setup (real time kernel and all that), and another one that's an open source obsessed programmer. Oh, and all of them have at least one more PC that runs XP...
14. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by Gothmolly · 2009-07-28 05:01 · Score: 1
  
  So you're saying 7 out of 10 Germans are thieves?
  
  --
  I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
15. Re:Those statistics are pretty much false... by bemymonkey · 2009-07-28 05:44 · Score: 1
  
  Hmmm, I dunno, are MSDN/MSDNAA members thieves in general?
Amazon.co.uk by farfield · 2009-07-25 22:37 · Score: 1

This makes me want to live in Germany. Though it seems amazon.de has a bunch of linux notebooks and netbooks, the same models aren't even on amazon.co.uk. I wonder if amazon.co.uk will even list arm based netbooks when they finally hit full force. The paucity of choice on amazon.co.uk is incredible, mostly older models and mostly out of stock.
When you live in a country in hock to M$* so deeply, maybe it's not surprising.
*The use of M$ in place of Microsoft is and indicator of the many years spent watching Microsoft compete fiercely for their market share, in both a legal and illegal manner.
1. Re:Amazon.co.uk by mjbkinx · 2009-07-26 02:11 · Score: 1
  
  Hello, fellow EU resident!
  Why don't you just buy from Amazon.de, then? I often do it the other way round when something is cheaper on your Amazon site, they now even display the cost in euros.
2. Re:Amazon.co.uk by mjbkinx · 2009-07-26 02:15 · Score: 1
  
  Oh... I forgot about keyboard layout. SÃrry for that.
  Other vendors may give you some choice there, though. At least US layout is a common option.
I'm amazed @ Linux on netbooks & notebooks by twosat · 2009-07-25 22:51 · Score: 1

I remember using Apple MacIntoshes in the late 1980's and wishing that they had Unix installed on them. Well, eventually that happened much later with OS X, but I find it amazing that Linux is now appearing in low-end netbook and notebook computers, albeit often with unpopular distributions.
full notebook by doti · 2009-07-25 22:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

These machines are not netbooks, but full notebooks
That is, full 2.5Kg + bulky AC font and cord, notebooks.
I never bought a notebook for that reason. To me, the point of a notebook is that you can carry it with you anywhere if you want, but they're too bulky for that, not to mention the battery life makes it impossible to do any real work away from the grid.
I was an early buyer of the Eee701, and I love it. I will only buy a notebook when I'm done with desktops and the notebook will be my main machine. This day will be the day id Software stop making games. (Since Quake 1, I always buy a new machine when id release a new engine.)

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factor 966971: 966971
1. Re:full notebook by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 05:10 · Score: 0
  
  Notebooks are great for moving around the house, as well, I use it mostly on one desk, as I did with my desktop, but I can relocate to a warmer/cooler place on a dime (say, near a stove when no one is cooking), I can go to the occasional meeting with my computer as well, without needing an external hard drive that has to be kept in synch.
  With desktops you have almost no mobility, it's too cumbersome to move them. With netbooks you have a synch problem, they don't have your updated data unless you're borderline obsessive.
  In my opinion, the perfect set up is a small notebook (13-14") with a large LCD, keyboard, etc, at home/office.
These are not really Linux notebooks by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 23:09 · Score: 0

Acer just installs a Linux because they have to deliver ANY operation system with the computer.
Even the Linux distributor (Linpus) itself doesn't use Linux, but Windows:
ftp://ftp.linpus.com/pub/aspireone/ACER/AspireOne/v1.0.3/patch103.xls
HP even does install FreeDOS on its cheapest notebooks:
http://www.notebooksbilliger.de/hp+550+na947ea+preisknaller?sid=5f86c41599d8b1bb15059c54303d9e4f
Nevertheless these notebooks are much cheaper w/out Windows tax and you can install your favorite operation system on it.
1. Re:These are not really Linux notebooks by FlyingBishop · 2009-07-26 03:33 · Score: 1
  
  Funny, that xls opens fine under OpenOffice. Somehow, I suspect it was created under OpenOffice. Amazing, that.
Those 2007 Amazon "sales charts" by harlows_monkeys · 2009-07-25 23:12 · Score: 0, Flamebait

well as data showing that the Linux-powered and Unix-powered computers topped Amazon's sales charts in all categories for 2007
According to the link that was in the above quote, The Nokia Internet Tablet PC was the best selling computer, the MacBook Pro was the best reviewed computer, the Asus EEE 4G was the most wished for computer, and the MacBook was the most gifted computer.
Only one of those comes from a sales chart. Furthermore, it probably wasn't the computer sales charts, as Amazon puts the Nokia in the handheld and PDA category. So what we really have here is that a Linux-powered device was tops in a minor category, Macs were the best reviewed and most gifted computers, and a lot of people expressed interest in the EEE.
That people have to resort to things this weak in order to get something positive about Linux success with consumers says a lot about how little that success is.
1. Re:Those 2007 Amazon "sales charts" by tapanitarvainen · 2009-07-26 01:35 · Score: 1
  
  You didn't read far enough. Take look at this article and the actual bestseller list at Amazon. In the category "notebooks", first and fifth are Linux machines.
2. Re:Those 2007 Amazon "sales charts" by harlows_monkeys · 2009-07-26 07:50 · Score: 1
  
  What do either of those have to do with 2007 sales?
Are they keeping them? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-25 23:28 · Score: 0

Just because Linux netbooks are selling well, it doesn't mean that the buyers are keeping Linux on them.
They may be buying the Linux netbook but end up wiping it for Windows (usually pirated) to save some money.
1. Re:Are they keeping them? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 12:05 · Score: 0
  
  So you're saying Windows is badly overpriced?
meanwhile, in Japan by hoarier · 2009-07-25 23:47 · Score: 1

Sales in Germany of Acer and Asus net/note/newtbooks with Linux should at least be higher than they are here in Japan -- where they are zero, as neither company condescends to offer a non-Windows option. You can get certain models of Dell n*tbooks with Ubuntu if you look for them online, but there's no mention even of them in the stores. Ask for Linux in a large computer store (e.g. Yodobashi) and you'll be greeted with something between incomprehension and mild alarm. This "free market" of ours is truly a wonderful thing.
Activation doesn't care about invalidity of EULA by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 01:04 · Score: 0

All MS have to do is tell you that your machine cannot have OEM XP installed on it and it doesn't MATTER what the law says in Germany.
Ja Der Krafty Kraut Schwinehund Bist Nicht Tot !! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 01:06 · Score: 0

It's INVASION !! RUn for France, the only place the germans are sure not to invade !!
Re:Activation doesn't care about invalidity of EUL by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 01:56 · Score: 0

At that point it would be legal to crack Windows as a measure of restoring compatibility.
Re:Even the Germans make bad choices? by number6x · 2009-07-26 03:09 · Score: 1

Let's not bring the German's like of David Hasselhoff as pop singing star into this thread!
I think the world is ready to forgive them over that.
Re:Even the Germans make bad choices? by Elektroschock · 2009-07-26 03:52 · Score: 1

Look, David Hasselhoff is super-creepy and this is why he sold in Germany some while ago. David Hasselhoff was popular 20 years ago. And he was produced by German producers with cheap entertainment songs. Hasselhoff stands for a kind of white coon song. I guess he is taken more serious in the US.
Usually Germans prefer Music to kick ass of the Americans.
Re:Ja Der Krafty Kraut Schwinehund Bist Nicht Tot by Elektroschock · 2009-07-26 04:02 · Score: 1

Oh, Paris..., we've been there.
Re:Even the Germans make bad choices? by Hurricane78 · 2009-07-26 04:09 · Score: 1

WTF was THAT? I'm from Germany, and you're sick! ^^

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Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
true dat! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 07:35 · Score: 0

I installed Slackware PPC on my 300MB RAM G3 ibook and it is way faster than OS 9 or OS X (10.2.8 is best I could run). More apps, too.
Link correction, please note by christian.einfeldt · 2009-07-26 07:48 · Score: 1

My apologies. I linked to the incorrect story in the main summary above. The LinuxTech.net blog mentioning the placement on Amazon Germany is actually here. Again, my apologies for the inconvenience and inaccuracy. Christian Einfeldt
Re:Even the Germans make bad choices? by Elektroschock · 2009-07-26 09:20 · Score: 1

Sickness is the right state of mind to express my appreciation of David Hasselhoff. You know, bad taste rules.
So Old, so False by omb · 2009-07-26 09:42 · Score: 1

This meme, linux an pirated windows is so much __crap__, if you want to use windows, were it not for M$ trying to bulk the latest version sales numbers, here we go again with W-7, users would get a pre-install + activation key for one-off purchases, and install whatever they wanted, including linux legally. This is end-user only.

In SOHO->Worldwise_Enterprise, the game is very different, first the OEM price of Windoze+Crapware is essentially zero, since M$, like all computer companies expect to make their buck on upgrades and service, which BTW includes licences for userland and per connection on servers. These statistics serve only to FUD small users, since the end of the GW Bush era, and the economic downturn has fixed, ie forced out the MBA CIOs. Also Enterprise __has__ the muscle to buy without Windoze, if they want, but generally choose not to since their cost is < 10$ and they get the Win Sticker, which is worth faar more thaat 10$ in licence management costs in a hybrid environment.

A lot of businesses got a real wakeup call since September 2008, and have fixed lots of problems, mostly CIOs who did not understand IT, as it really is, and the business. This is especially obvious in High Frequency Trading (including market co-location) and Troubled Asset pricing. The guys who think Windows can run servers are essentially dead, eg the UK H1N1 Pandemic Tamiflu server. Hosed in a day.

We, the Linux community, have only one serious remaining problem in the Enterprise, replacing and inter-operating seemlessly with Outlook-Express. Wine/Win-VM is so effective I can test IE4 on Win-ME, when I want to and I can do it on part of a single 16 core, 64 GB server fast, before triaging failing test cases on a i486+256MB, that lets me do a full regression in a day, not 3 weeks.

The FUD is using pre-install numbers, but it is very limited, in spite of M$ astroturfing. It fools neither the technically aware, in their private capacity, or the Enterprise.

If I go to HP, Dell etc, and order 10,000 machines with call off, and give them a install DVD they will deliver the machines, pre-installed, with anything I want, UNLESS I tell them that I Intend Making a Press Announcement. Try it.
Dell New Zealand by rjcwlgnz · 2009-07-26 10:16 · Score: 1

Clicked on the Dell ad at the top of this page. Searched "Linux laptop" and surprised to find Dell is now selling a linux laptop in New Zealand. When I searched a few months I couldn't find any. Anyone know about the touch screen with ubuntu?
Retail Market by omb · 2009-07-26 10:46 · Score: 1

The retail end user market is zilch in the big picture, see IDG for example
Denn heute, da hört uns Deustchland... by dido · 2009-07-26 12:21 · Score: 1

Und morgen die ganze Welt!
(Sorry, couldn't resist. Unfortunately that sounds like a Godwin...)

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Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
Linpus Linux on Asus is broken by Anonymous Coward · 2009-07-26 16:49 · Score: 0

The Linux installation on the Asus notebook is broken. This is said several times in the reviews. It doesn't even boot. Those that tried to install Ubuntu faced non-working wifi and sound.
Almost all comments mention installing Windows XP, Vista or 7.
1. Re:Linpus Linux on Asus is broken by nagnamer · 2009-07-27 01:16 · Score: 1
  
  I had similar experience with Linux on Acer. It was not an Ubuntu version, though, but some Limpus Linux. The first time I booted the machine it went straight into command line shell, and id didn't even have X installed.
  I wrote to Acer about it and got no reply. They don't seem to care.
  Fortunately, I have done my homework and selected a favorably reviewed model, and everything worked once I got Arch on it.
  
  --
  Every harsh word you utter has the right address. It only sounds harsh because the one on the envelope is the wrong one.
2. Re:Linpus Linux on Asus is broken by nagnamer · 2009-07-27 01:17 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, and I forgot to mention that I got no install CD with the laptop.
  
  --
  Every harsh word you utter has the right address. It only sounds harsh because the one on the envelope is the wrong one.
Good by TranscenDev · 2009-07-27 04:33 · Score: 1

That's great that the Linux Nbooks are selling well. Users need to be exposed to other alternatives to Windows if for nothing more than education. ~Ami Chicago Web Design
How do you find stats for 2009? by lsatenstein · 2009-07-27 12:46 · Score: 0

Linux Notebooks and low end laptops have linux prefered (year 2007). What about today?

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Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada