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Dye Used In Blue M&Ms Can Lessen Spinal Injury

SydShamino writes "Researchers at the University of Rochester Medical Center have found that the dye used in blue M&Ms and other foods can, when given intravenously to a lab rat shortly after a spinal injury, minimize secondary damage caused by the body when it kills off nearby healthy cells. The dye is called BBG or Brilliant Blue G. Given that 85% of spinal injury patients are currently untreated (and some doctors don't trust the treatment given to the other 15%), a relatively safe treatment like this could help preserve some function for thousands of patients. The best part is that in lab rats the subjects given the treatment turn blue." The researchers are "pulling together an application to be lodged with the FDA to stage the first clinical trials of BBG on human patients."

59 of 324 comments (clear)

  1. Sound Methods? by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Funny

    "... so every year we have a bring-your-child-to-work day where we inject some M&M dye into the lab rats and let the kids play with them. And Gunderson's kid has this nasty tendency to just baseball them into the wall and, well, we noticed the blue colored mice were recovering much better from the wall impact injuries ..."

    Seriously though is there like a lab out there giving rats spinal injuries and jacking them full of chemicals? Cause if there is, I've got my resume handy!

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Sound Methods? by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's probably better than actual conditions for lab rats.

      How do you think they determine what dose kills you? They inject 200 rats with an overdose of, say, acetaminophen, and wait for horrifyingly painful liver failure. I guess it's better than testing it on humans though.

    2. Re:Sound Methods? by petehead · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Wired article http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/07/bluerats/ notes that they dropped a 10 gram weight onto the backs of the mice while the mice were under anesthesia (it doesn't specify if the weight was made by ACME).

    3. Re:Sound Methods? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The funny thing is, if you want to poison a rat for scientific reasons, or (as in this case) break a rat's spine for scientific reasons, there are all sorts of rules to be followed, standards to be upheld, forms to be filed, etc.

      If you just have rats in your house/warehouse/store/(or heck, even your lab, as long as they aren't lab rats) you can put out backbreaking traps, glue traps that cause slow death by dehydration, warfarin baits, whatever you want and nobody will say a thing. No standards, just the maintanence guy hittin' em with a shovel if they are twitching too much for the garbage.

      Same thing in other areas: You don't need to deal with an IRB to raise feedlot pigs. And, for human testing, you (ostensibly at any rate) need informed consent, and various safeguards, IRB oversight, etc. If you need to spray your nerve toxin/probable human carcinogen on your crops, you just hire some undocumented mexican for $3.50 an hour, and throw him away if he breaks...

      I'm not arguing that science needs less scrutiny(unethical conduct is always bad, and "trust us, its for the greater good" doesn't have an especially noble history; but I do think that science draws flack well out of proportion to its relative ethical risk, for reasons I don't fully understand. Numerous fields of human endeavor kill, maim, or cripple far more animals and humans, to far less benefit, than science, and somehow get away with less scrutiny and opposition. Why is science the target?

    4. Re:Sound Methods? by JPLemme · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You guess it's better than testing it on humans?

      I agree with you that it's unfortunate that animals are sacrificed for medical research, and I hope and expect that the researchers are aware of their moral obligations to the animals under their care. But fixing spinal cord injuries so that people can walk again is worth the lives of millions of rats.

    5. Re:Sound Methods? by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why? Are rats less deserving of our sympathies than "intelligent" humans?

      Yes.

      Wouldn't it be /more/ humane to test on those creatures that can give informed consent?

      No.

    6. Re:Sound Methods? by digitrev · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, we did need the first 999,999 rats. So we could figure out what doesn't work. To (mis)quote Edison, "I didn't fail, I just found a thousand ways not to make a lightbulb".

      --
      Cynical Idealist
    7. Re:Sound Methods? by dffish · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, they're rats. Bred specifically for scientific purposes. If they have to experiment on millions of rats to ease the suffering of one human, then experiment away. I'm always amazed when I see a comment like that. It says to me that you find it more important to have a rat live to its ultimate potential...whatever that is...spreading disease most likely, than helping humanity. The only creature capable of informed consent IS humanity... So...what are you saying really?

    8. Re:Sound Methods? by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, I guess it's better.

      How many rat deaths exactly is a person walking again worth? A million? Could you stomach the hundred thousand gallons of blood flowing from the chopping block, knowing it was saving someone's mobility?

      Are you sure you're comfortable with the ramifications of throwing out a number like one human life = 1 million rat lives? You know, the only reason it's not the other way around (1 million human lives for 1 rat life) is because we're the apex predators with the cages and the needles and the power. But what if some alien civilization more intelligent than us needs a million human lives to save one of theirs?... fair?

    9. Re:Sound Methods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Most of those procedures are less about caring for the rats and more about proper bookkeeping, budgeting, specimen tracking, etc. It's procedural controls to keep it science instead of just injecting rats with food coloring.

      As to why science is the target: probably because it's so procedural, and done for reasons many people can't understand properly or deem to be wasteful. A dozen rabbits getting maimed in a wheat thresher is just an unfortunate side effect of your vegan diet; a dozen rabbits getting experimented on for a reason you don't understand is torture and unethical, even if it may alleviate pain and suffering for untold numbers of fellow humans.
      =Smidge=

    10. Re:Sound Methods? by KDR_11k · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, that's my dinner!

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    11. Re:Sound Methods? by KDR_11k · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Humans are really unique in how much they argue about the ethics of killing something for the benefit of their group. Pretty much all animals just kill it and go their merry way. Either they kill it for food or they kill it because it violated their territory or whatever. Sometimes they just kill for fun. None of them complain about the ethics of all that.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    12. Re:Sound Methods? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You may not even use my rat. Buy your own, or go to your local animal shelter.

    13. Re:Sound Methods? by spud603 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is that supposed to be an argument that we shouldn't care about ethics? Most other species also don't cook their food.

    14. Re:Sound Methods? by linzeal · · Score: 3, Informative

      As far as I know almost all organic labels make no mention of killing "critters" with guns. Almost all farmers out here shoot deer, rabbits and the like so vegans indirectly contribute to untold numbers of animal deaths.

    15. Re:Sound Methods? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How many rat deaths exactly is a person walking again worth? A million? Could you stomach the hundred thousand gallons of blood flowing from the chopping block, knowing it was saving someone's mobility?

      You exaggerate, a rat has nowhere near a pint of blood in him. Probably not more than ten thousand gallons, tops.

      Are you sure you're comfortable with the ramifications of throwing out a number like one human life = 1 million rat lives?

      Yes, in fact I am.

      You know, the only reason it's not the other way around (1 million human lives for 1 rat life) is because we're the apex predators with the cages and the needles and the power. But what if some alien civilization more intelligent than us needs a million human lives to save one of theirs?... fair?

      "Fair" has nothing to do with it. We're the apex predator, and all those prey animals will just have to suck it up.

      And if some alien civilization wanders in and displaces us as the apex predator in these parts, we'll just have to suck it up too.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    16. Re:Sound Methods? by yincrash · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, we happen to be sentient.

    17. Re:Sound Methods? by Turiko · · Score: 2, Informative

      erm... once the cure is there, it's there forever. Sooner or later, the ratio of 1-1 WILL be overtaken.

    18. Re:Sound Methods? by EtherMonkey · · Score: 2, Informative

      I draw the line at complete rat genocide.* After all, you've got to leave at least one breeding pair so you can restock for the next round of experiments.

      Have you ever owned or bread rats? 3 weeks gestation, litter size of 6 to 16, sexual maturity after 90 days... it doesn't take long to be completely overwhelmed. I tried it once as an alternative to driving 45 minutes to a pet store to feed my 10-ft python. It only took me a few months to give up.

      --
      --- A man with a briefcase can steal more money, than any man with a gun. [Don Henley]
    19. Re:Sound Methods? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, they're rats. Bred specifically for scientific purposes.

      I agree with your conclusion, but not your argument. The fact that they are "bred specifically for scientific purposes" doesn't have any impact on the moral aspect of animal testing. We've had people who were specifically bred for farm labor but that didn't make slavery moral.

      The reason animal testing for medicine is OK is because we agree that the life of a human is more valuable than the life of a lab rat. Whether or not I may agree with that assumption doesn't change the fact that it has become a consensus. The best we can do as far as creating a moral framework for human society is to accept such a consensus. It's imperfect, but I don't see another way, unless you're willing to abrogate moral responsibility to the pronouncements of an imaginary deity, which really means "a bunch of guys who wrote moral pronouncements and then claimed they came from god". I happen to prefer the consensus method to the imaginary deity method.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    20. Re:Sound Methods? by maxume · · Score: 3, Funny

      Ah, the one in Toledo.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    21. Re:Sound Methods? by rubi · · Score: 2, Informative

      And how many "human test subjects" would volunteer and how many would be mandated to do it? Better test in rats and such than MAKE humans do it; the pool of volunteers is really small.

    22. Re:Sound Methods? by Dantu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even from an evolutionary perspective, yes. Aren't rats kind pretty low on the totem pole?

      Depends what totem pole. The totem pole of "most like humans", then they are a little ways down, but still FAR above the 1/2 way point if you include non-mammals.

      In terms of "most evolved" rats are exactly where humans are. If there was any argument to be made, you could say they are MORE evolved, since they have a shorter life span and more children - more chance for natural selection to work it's magic.

      Evolution works towards optimizing a species for survival; not for "becoming human" or "becoming smart" or anything else that puts people on top. I don't mean to be "anti-human", but evolution doesn't care about those things.

    23. Re:Sound Methods? by lena_10326 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just some thoughts as to an explanation why.

      1. Slippery slope argument. Institutionalizing a careless regard for animal life will eventually lead to a general careless regard for human life.
      2. Role model argument. Scientists as a group form a body of people who are commonly recognized as figureheads of authority, leadership, thought shapers, yadda yadda. E.g. role models. As such they are commonly held to higher standard because they are (supposedly) professionals possessing an elevated level of education, power, or influence. You'll see this with other figureheads. Examples. A cheating politician creates a big public stir when caught, but no one cares when a citizen does the same. A sports hero caught doing steroids. A NASA scientist caught up in a love triangle. A 24 yo high school teacher dating an 18 yo student. A movie star busted for DWI.
      3. Priority argument. Animals invading a home represent a health risk to human inhabitants. We value human health higher than animal health so humans win. Animals lose. In the case of scientific experimentation with animals, the existence of those animals possess no (immediate) health risk since they are caged and disease free (at least before the experiment begins). The importance of the rat's health becomes elevated because no one is harmed by their existence.
      4. Responsibility argument. Animals in the wild choose to procreate and invade our homes. They bear a certain level of responsibility for not avoiding humans. In the lab, humans choose to breed (or capture) those animals. In that case humans bear the responsibility for the ethical treatment of them.
      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    24. Re:Sound Methods? by rantingkitten · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your answers are coming off as really, really callous. Strictly speaking, you are probably right -- a rat is not worth as much as a human from a purely objective ethical or moral standpoint (though I suspect there are some who would debate this, and the discussion could get interesting).

      But even if you're right, that does not mean we should be completely carefree about inflicting harm against creatures that can feel pain or fear or both, merely because they're not human. Tossing off one-word yes/no responses to that guy's questions makes it sound like there is nothing further to discuss, when in fact the issue of animal testing is a hotly contested one and not so easily answered.

      --
      mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
    25. Re:Sound Methods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they have to experiment on millions of rats to ease the suffering of one human, then experiment away.

      Don't underestimate the magnitude of what is being done.

      No, you have the numbers all wrong.

      The experimentation on perhaps millions of will not ease the suffering of just one human, if the experiments are successful.

      It will ease the suffering of millions and millions of humans, perhaps billions, until another solution is found.

      But we do have the moral obligation to the experimental animal, whether rat or mouse or dog or cat or pig or monkey to keep its suffering due to our experiment to a minimum.

    26. Re:Sound Methods? by LeoPercepied · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't feel bad, lab mice are just using us to find the question to Life the Universe and everything.

    27. Re:Sound Methods? by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 3, Informative

      Tell me how animal fighting is illegal, but underground fighting is not (only the gambling is).

      If you don't understand the difference between two consenting adults getting into a ring and beating the crap out of each other or 2 animals being driven into a fury and then placed in a small enclosement I very much doubt you'll be able to grasp any answer you'll get.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
  2. Re:So eating M&M by bigattichouse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ok.. my father-in-law died from ALS (Lou Gherig's disease) - I wonder if this might be relevant in the nerve death suffered there.

    --
    meh
  3. And all this time... by jbarr · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...I've been focusing on the green ones!

    --
    My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
    1. Re:And all this time... by TinBromide · · Score: 4, Funny

      But have you been injecting them intravenously?

      --
      Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
    2. Re:And all this time... by SnarfQuest · · Score: 4, Funny

      I tried, but couldn't get them to squeeze out the little needle. Tried using a caulking gun, but that was just extremely painful.
      Turned out as badly as when I tried snorting coke. The bubbles just about killed me.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
  4. Blue pill by maxwell+demon · · Score: 3, Funny

    Don't take the red pill. Take the blue pill. It's better for your spine.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  5. Blue Rat Group by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    The best part is that in lab rats the subjects given the treatment turn blue.

    Do they also start taking part in voiceless percussion stage performances?

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  6. Blue red by greg1104 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Glad to see the blue M&Ms won't be going the way the red ones did in 1976.

  7. natgeo article with more pictures by yincrash · · Score: 2, Informative

    nat geo posted an article. basically, the blue dye helps prevent the initial swelling which compresses spinal cord tissue to the point of tissue death. less tissue death = better recovery.

  8. Re:So eating M&M by NFN_NLN · · Score: 2, Funny

    Can be considered healty now?

    At least if you have a spinal injury or possibly other type of nerve damage?

    Or will you have to eat a truckload of M&M before there is any effect?

    Depends, if you can eat blue smarties INTRAVENOUSLY they might be helpful. I would work up to it by taking them in suppository form first.

  9. How about yellow? by DoktorSeven · · Score: 2, Informative

    Now can we really make M&Ms (and tons of other foods) better by getting rid of the awful yellow dye garbage (tartrazine)? It's been shown to affect tons of people negatively and some even link it to childhood obsessive-compulsive disorder and hyperactivity.

    Seriously, we can do without yellow foods or find something much safer, can't we? Why do we continue to put use this as a food dye when there are so many issues with it?

    It's a real pain in the ass to analyze ingredient lists of every single thing I buy to make sure it doesn't have that in it, and it's in very non-obvious things as well (things that don't even look that yellow). Plus they don't draw attention to it like other food allergies, it's just hidden near the bottom of ingredient lists. And I'm sure I've accidentally had it at restaurants causing me to feel like crap and get headaches and feel sick afterwards.

    Ban tartrazine.

    --
    This is a sig. Deal with it.
    1. Re:How about yellow? by vlm · · Score: 3, Funny

      No need, there are lots of naturally occuring yellow foods. Some tomatos, some potatos, squash, egg yolk, corn...

      Yellow snow... no, wait, scratch that off the list.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  10. Re:Blue Eyes? Blue Vision? by NFN_NLN · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Notice that the eyes have completely changed color as well. I'm thinking I do not want my eyes filled with blue tint.

    Yeah, given the choice between blue tinted eyes and spinal injury most people will chose spinal injury, I know I would.

  11. Random! by EEBaum · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm sure there are sound methods involved in this, but it sounds kinda like some lab techs have two dartboards, one labeled "thing to do to mouse" and another labeled "thing to inject into mouse to see if it gets better" and are playing a drinking game.

    "Well, the Tide With Color-Safe Bleach injection didn't fix Squeaky's 'beetus. Your turn, Roy!"

    --
    -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
  12. Re:Blue Eyes? Blue Vision? by jeffasselin · · Score: 2, Funny

    Do rats with blue eyes pray to earthworms?

    I wouldn't mind being a Fremen myself...

    --
    If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
  13. Re:Blue Eyes? Blue Vision? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Funny

    Did he possibly play blues?

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  14. Re:Mobsters, the new clinical trialists. by VxMorpheusxV · · Score: 5, Informative

    That is the nature of research with animals. There is regulation (here in the U.S) that attempts to minimize pain when possible and guidelines that must be followed to acquire animals for research, but there has been substantial progress made through animal research. If you've got a viable alternative I'm sure it would be considered. Take a look at the wiki page for more info.

  15. Why M&M? by Relic+of+the+Future · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Why are M&Ms getting attached to this story? This dye is used in all kinds of foods, not just M&Ms.

    Maybe M&M/Mars, thanks to all the free and undeserved publicity, would be willing to help fund the necessary study, since no drug company seems interested in doing so (after all, there's no profit in selling a commodity food coloring.)

    --
    Those who fail to understand communication protocols, are doomed to repeat them over port 80.
    1. Re:Why M&M? by Kligat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or maybe instead of blaming the scientists, you could be blaming the stupid U.S. media that wants you to associate science with candy, and candy is delicious, so you'll think science is delicious and click. I originally read the story on BBC, and they never mentioned M&M's once.

  16. Re:Blue Eyes? Blue Vision? by Trahloc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wish someone would invent something that creates light ... like ... well ... a bulb of some sort ... maybe .. ahh... a light bulb? No too crazy, yes much better to be in a wheel chair pissing all over yourself than potentially have your night time vision affected for a short while. The lil rodents turned blue for only a short time, it wasn't permanent, even a year is a short while vs permanent spinal damage.

    --
    The Goal: A long simple life filled with many complex toys.
  17. Re:Mobsters, the new clinical trialists. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Funny

    Seems to me we should be contracting out mobsters as researchers. Because they also just 'happen' to find people who suffer spinal cord injuries.

    That's a good idea. They'd probably do it for free, too, because if there's one thing mobsters hate, it's a rat.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  18. Re:Blue Eyes? Blue Vision? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The spice must flow!?

  19. This is going to be a can of worms by overshoot · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Apparently this is one of those things like clotbusters after a CVI or MI where time counts -- only more so: waiting an hour or two can make the difference between walking and not walking.

    Which means that restricting it to use in trauma centers is going to end up with a lot of nonurban victims left paralyzed for life. Trouble is, administering it outside of a trauma center is going to cause a lot of problems with licensure etc. Which causes me, as a nonurban first responder, to simultaneously stress out and reach for the popcorn.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  20. Yup by overshoot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If it does get approved at some point, you'd almost want carried by first responders instead of having to wait until you reach the emergency room.

    And since it's an injected drug, there are all sorts of legal restrictions on who can administer it. The list does not include EMT-Bs (basic emergency medical techs), only full paramedics [1] -- who are not always around when you need one.

    [1] Training for paramedics beyond the standard "field medic" is extensive, including cadaver labs and stuff like that. Even so, they don't administer drugs without explicit direction from medical control (typically nearby ER doc.)

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  21. Re:there's more to science then just hurting anima by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Funny
  22. Re:85% are untreated!!??? by Lordplatypus · · Score: 2, Informative

    As someone who has permanent nerve damage in my back that makes me unable to feel my legs below the knee I can tell you exactly what several doctors have told me.

    "At least you can walk." "Let me know if it gets worse."

    Consider hiring people to clean your gutters or hang your Christmas lights.

    --
    Diplomacy is the art of saying, 'Nice doggie!' till you can find a rock.-- Wynn Catlin
  23. Re:85% are untreated!!??? by Carnildo · · Score: 3, Informative

    We can fix the mechanical damage to the bones and ligaments, but the current best-practice treatment for the nerve damage consists of waiting to see how bad it is, followed by physical therapy. After hundreds of years of research, we haven't found anything more effective, which is what makes this such big news.

    --
    "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
  24. Re:Blue Eyes? Blue Vision? by InverseParadox · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to TFA, the blue tint disappeared within a week, and the regained mobility didn't manifest till the sixth week (at which point they killed the rat to dissect it) - so I doubt that this will be a long-term problem.

    They did mention that they were surprised, upon dissection, to find out that the spinal cord was still blue even at the six-week mark. I imagine that even that would go away with time, though.

    --
    -- The Wanderer
  25. Smurf by mwvdlee · · Score: 2, Funny

    This articles begs to be tagged "smurf".
    I mean, healing people with blue dye...

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  26. So conflicted by symbolset · · Score: 5, Funny

    Are these humans lawyers, music industry executives, or Microsoft programmers? Context is key.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  27. poorly understood chemicals in our food... by TermV · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is pretty scary, actually. We're randomly adding this stuff to food for no reason other than to turn it blue. So it turns out it has some sort of medicinal power, but it could just have easily caused cancer or horrible birth defects.

    If our factory food looks so disgusting that it needs dyes, maybe we shouldn't be eating it in the first place.

  28. The Blue Man Group... by macraig · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... will be filing a lawsuit shortly to block this attempted copyright infringement.