Students Settle With TurnItIn In Copyright Case

An anonymous reader writes "With the deadline for a Supreme Court appeal rapidly approaching, the students who sued TurnItIn.com for issues surrounding copyright infringement reached a settlement with the site's company on Friday. Now the search goes out for any student who has a paper which is being held by TurnItIn that they did not upload themselves. If your teacher uploaded a paper and ran a TurnItIn report without your permission, I bet the students' attorney would like to hear from you."

Comments

how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[yincrash]

can i search my name on turnitin.com?

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are a student, and you suspect that a particular paper was submitted without your consent, contact the attorney and confidentially provide him with your paper.

If you are a TEACHER, and your school uses this service, and you think that it would benefit everyone to get a ruling on the legality of such a service, contact the attorney and offer to help,

With the combination of a student and a teacher, a test can be run on a PARAGRAPH from the paper in question, If it gets flagged as plagiarism, then the teacher can request that the paper gets emailed to him/her. This would provide the attorney with a test case for another challenge of this service.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[spydabyte]

How do we contact the attorney? After a lot of link searching, there's no real contact information.

What if a teacher requires you to submit the paper for their class? Can you do anything then? (Asking because of a class discussion I had once as I do not want my work copyrighted by turnitin.com. It was basically decided that the teacher could do whatever they wanted. Where does the law come in on this?)

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Chapter80]

it was on the anon-a-blog. ravar@nixonvan.com Bob Vanderhye, 703-442-0422.

I think TurnItIn's strategy is to make the schools make the students submit the papers (and agree to the terms). Many students have successfully challenged their teachers and their schools, saying that this requirement to submit to a PERMANENT ARCHIVE is wrong.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like you searched everywhere but TFA.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Shadow of Eternity]

And what about the more common case of being a student who was forced to upload things to turnitin or fail the class? Sounds like a pretty big bloody loophole to leave considering how easily schools can find various ways of blackmailing a student into "voluntarily" doing things.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[DudeTheMath]

My wife is an English professor at a large research university. Her syllabus, which is effectively the contract between her and the student, states that she reserves the right to upload it as she sees fit. The student agrees to the contract by remaining in the class (this is the view of the university's lawyers).

So if there's anything like that in your syllabus, you're probably out of luck. "I didn't read the syllabus" is not going to be a successful legal argument. "I had to take the course to graduate" might get you farther, but it can usually be shown that there were other classes that would have fulfilled that requirement.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[commodore64_love]

Well of course it's wrong. Suppose that one of those students if the next Roddenberry (Star Trek), JMS (Babylon 5), or Joss Whedon (Buffy/Angel/Firefly) and said student created a great story for his class. Why should this student have to give-up his copyrights to some asshole company?

This is just another way that corporations seek to steal ideas, stories, songs from artisans by takng-over control of the copyrights.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[commodore64_love]

>>> she reserves the right to upload it as she sees fit. The student agrees to the contract

This contract would be declared "void" in a court-of-law, just the same as various provisions in the Paypal User Agreement were declared void a few years ago. Why? Because contracts can not be used to sign-away rights protected by Federal Consumer Protection laws. In other words, a company (college) can not force a customer (student) to give-up his rights or privileges as a precondition of service,

Nor can a company add conditions AFTER the money has already been paid, which would be the case if a customer does not see the prof's syllabus until the first day. That's called bait-and-switch.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[jackal40]

Just how in the hell is a syllabus a contract between teacher and student? At best, it is the standard by which the teacher announces the intended requirements and flow for the course - at worst, it's nothing more than a homework and study guide.

Thank god your wife doesn't teach where I go to school, most of us don't put up with that kind of crap and will drop the class before the first period is over.

What a crock! And if her class is a requirement for graduation and happens to be the only session being taught in a given semester, I'd be willing to wager you would get a lot of complaints. B.T.W. does she states this in her syllabus clearly, or do you wait until someone complains and then bring in the lawyers?

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[HungryHobo]

Your wife is a shyster and a con artist.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[theLOUDroom]

Her syllabus, which is effectively the contract between her and the student, states that she reserves the right to upload it as she sees fit.

Something tells me that you haven't taken any law courses.

A "contract" presented to me after I've already paid to take the class, that isn't even represented to me as a legally binding contract. My ass.

The student agrees to the contract by remaining in the class (this is the view of the university's lawyers).

I hope their legal argument is a little more nuanced than this. Presenting me with a "contact" that:

• I do not sign
• That is presented after money changes hands
• Whose delivery is structured in such a way that refusing to enter into it incurrs a significant hardship. (So now on the first day of class I need to find another class. A class where the professor can actually be bothered to work hard enough to determine whether the students in her class are competent in the subject matter.)

Your wife should worry less about turnitin and more about doing her job. A decent professor does not need a search engine to figure out who's cheating. The problem is that it requires doing your job:
Actually interacting with students face to face, and gauging their understanding of a topic.
Use TAs to help if you need to, but don't steal copies of your honest student's papers just because you're too lazy to ask a student about the paper they just turned in, and too lazy to have a few tests.

I never gave copies of my papers to students too lazy to do their jobs, why should I give them to lazy professors?

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[GumphMaster]

"Her syllabus, which is effectively the contract between her and the student" "Effectively", but not actually. IIRC, a contract without exchange of consideration (usually money) is not a contract. Their is very unlikely to be money changing hands directly between the teacher and the student, who are the alleged contracting parties. This _might_ permit the teacher to upload the student's work but it absolutely _does not_ permit TurnItIn to further distribute the work, or derivatives of it, without the copyright holder's permission. That, I think, is the point being argued.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[pbhj]

In other words, a company (college) can not force a customer (student) to give-up his rights or privileges as a precondition of service, ...

Don't colleges restrict your right to bear arms on campus? Don't they restrict your right to free speech in lectures? Sounds like bunkum to me.

In the UK colleges have a standard IP rights statement in which one gives up certain IP rights in order to matriculate (join the college); I had heard this was true in the US too?

Do "Federal Consumer Protection laws" really specify that a teacher can't make a copy of your term paper ?

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[sjames]

Or a student could add a copyright notice granting the teacher the non-exclusive right to upload the paper, but reserving all other rights including the right to do anything more than store the paper once uploaded. In other words, comply with exactly the letter of the 'contract' but make sure it's worthless.

It does seem interesting to me that at least in theory, the student is the customer and is certainly the one that pays, but their work gets treated as a work for hire.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[iamwahoo2]

the student agrees to the contract by remaining in the class

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit!

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[schwnj]

a company (college) can not force a customer (student) to give-up his rights or privileges as a precondition of service

I'm skeptical of your claim for several reasons. 1) Courts routinely recognize that college is not a typical company-consumer organization, and they are often not treated as such. 2) Companies require you to waive rights and privileges all the time, and as a precondition of service. Want to buy a car? Arbitration and liability waiver. Want to hire a dentist? Medical waivers. etc. 3) Businesses routinely claim copyright/patent on products produced by employees (as a condition of employment) and such agreements are routinely supported in court. 4) Students do not pay the full cost of their education at just about any school, especially public ones. Their education is subsidized by taxpayers or endowment income or federal aid or whatever. That gives the college (or the state) the right to assert at least partial ownership of products resulting from a student's education. At my university, our system allows us to check for plagiarism without submitting the students' works to the database. I don't compel my students to submit their work to the database, but I do have them run it through the content check side.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Lemmy Caution]

A good syllabus is an explanation of the expectations of the course, a description of what will be required of the student to succeed in the class. It may not reach the requirements of a legal contract per se, although I do know some universities that consider syllabuses to be a somewhat binding agreement on both student and teacher - meaning that if a teacher grades on material or assignments that aren't in the syllabus, the student could challenge it.

I'm in favor of turninit.com, by the way. I don't see anything that takes away a student's subsequent rights to their work, a "right not to have one's work archived" doesn't seem compelling to me. And cheating has become a huge problem.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Chapter80]

So, if the syllabus says there will be a test on 2/6, and snow prevents the test from happening, the teacher is in violation of her contract with the students?

 

Sounds like your wife's university should get different lawyers.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Lemmy Caution]

This is not the case, and most syllabuses (syllabi is hypercorrection) have a "we will reschedule if necessary" clause in them.

But if the teacher puts material in the final that is not mentioned in the syllabus, then she would, in fact, be in violation, and students would be able to challenge any poor grades she handed out because of it.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Chapter80]

most syllabuses (syllabi is hypercorrection) have a "we will reschedule if necessary" clause in them.

 

Not knowing what school your wife teaches at, I could only look at representative samples online. A quick google search of "syllabus fall 2009" to find representative syllabi shows that this is not the case (instructors do NOT mention rescheduling). None of the first ten contained any mention (as far as I could find) of rescheduling. Several had firm schedules and firm commitments, such as "I will hold office hours once per week", "There will be two 50 minute lectures each week", "Upon completion of this course, students will be able to...", as well as specific meeting times and test dates.

I can see "holes' in every one of the ten that I examined - cases in which the teacher may not live up to their "legal commitment", if the syllabus were considered a legal contract.

If these are expected to be legal, binding contracts, lawyers would be salivating over the possibilities. Go take a course. If you get less than an "A", threaten to sue on the grounds that the instructor didn't live up to their contract.

Nope, I'm not buying it.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Lemmy Caution]

It is not a legal contract per se (or else they'd be written by lawyers, not by instructors.) But I am explaining to you the sense in which it is like a contract - an explication of the mutual expectations and responsibilities, and is treated as such by academic review committees that deal with grade challenges within a university. It will go poorly for the instructor and well for the student if material not included in the syllabus winds up in the final, or if expectations are suddenly raised mid-term.

Agreements regarding turninit.com, the copyright of student works, etc are usually part of the acceptance to the school itself, and are indeed written by lawyers.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[bestalexguy]

I don't think you should need to drop the class. If that is the case, you could just sue afterwards based on the fact you didn't actually give up a right you cannot legally give up. This applies on gazillions of situations, like making a tenant agree he'll pay in advance the landlord 100 0%-interest rate monthly rents. Even universities' lawyers should be able to understand this.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[commodore64_love]

I have no idea why this was modded "troll". I made a legitimate point about a company taking a writer's story for itself. We already have precedent, where internet forums claim all rights over submitted messages.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[commodore64_love]

>>>Sounds like bunkum to me.

No it isn't bunkum that the U.S. Courts declared various sections of Paypal's contract "void" since the contract violated federal laws. Similarly a professor that demands a student give-up his rights is also in violation of these laws. For example the professor can not say in his syllabus, "You lose all right to sue me for sexual harassment."

Yeah I know I used an extreme example, but so did you with your anti-gun argument. The point is that there are some rights/privileges than can Not be given-away via contract, because the U.S. laws supercede the contract. One of those rights is copyright. A business like Walmart can not force a customer to give-up his stories as a condition of service. Neither can XYZ College.

Another right is to not have terms added to a contract AFTER the money has already been paid by the customer. That's a breach by the business. For example Walmart can't suddenly tell me, after I bought some Levis jeans, that I am only allowed to wear them on weekend. Neither can a professor arbitarily add terms after payment has been submitted.

Such things must be revealed *before* the money changes hands.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[commodore64_love]

>>>Want to buy a car? Arbitration and liability waiver.

Yes and virtually all of those have been declared void in court. For example a lot of these arbitration contracts claim the customer MUST go through arbitration and abide by the arbiter's ruling. They also say the customer may not challenge the result in court. Time-and-time again the courts have nullified these contracts, and stated that the customer may sue a company at any time, without being bound to arbitration, per U.S. law.

But companies keep making us sign these contracts, because they know deception is effective, and most customers falsely-believe they are bound by this waiver. But it isn't true. Consumer rights can not be signed-away.

The same applies with the company called college. A professor has a little more flexibility, but he still can not force someone to sign-away their Federally-protected rights. For example suppose the professor never appeared in class, but instead set-up a TV to watch Cartoon Network, per the first-day's syllabus. You mean to tell me the university is protected from being sued by the ~30 students that paid tuition, but were never taught? Hardly.

You're a customer. You retain all your consumer rights per U.S. law.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Actually, if I didn't read the agreement, and it was never presented to me, before I purchased the class (read: signed up and pay tuition) it would make the syllabus a shrink wrap license which has over turned in several states.

2. If I was absent the first day, and never received a copy of the syllabus, I am not legally bound by it and could still sue.

3. If a student challenged the clause and took it to the deans of the College of Letters and Science, with the threat of "switching universities after launching a boycott this class campaign"; a dean may out rule the prof.

4. A line in a syllabus does not a product release make. I know this from when I was working for the Center for International Education at the university I currently work. Even for study abroad programs, they can't make a student sign away their copyright, they can only ask they do so voluntarily. Their reasons are for marketing purposes rather than grading, but same legal rules apply regardless of use.

5. I highly doubt that a syllabus would stand as legally binding contract, see:
http://media.www.arbiteronline.com/media/storage/paper890/news/2003/09/08/News/Is.A-Syllabus.A.Contract-2215597.shtml

6. Also, if it were, and she had any line it that violted any prinicple of contract law, the contract would be null and void.

7. Also if it were a contract, and if she fell a week behind where the schedule listed on the syllabus, she'd be in breach of contract, and the students could then sue for breach of contract, and in good faith ignore the rest of the document.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Khyber]

You were modded troll because a few TurnItIn employees with slashdot UIDs and mod points nailed you.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Khyber]

If that's the case then any contract with "Terms are subject to change without notice" should automatically be null and void.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[Chapter80]

My bet would be that if one student wins a copyright suit against Turnitin for a paper that was submitted by their teacher, then the whole validity of the service will be in question. After that, going to your school and complaining about the REQUIREMENT of PERMANENTLY ARCHIVING your academic work should be a fight you can win.

 

I read an interesting perspective yesterday (I wish I could site the source! shame on me...)

One of the judges ruled that TurnItIn actually provides a benefit to the student, by protecting his/her work from being copied. This judge's logic is flawed, and here's why:

• The author should always retain the right of first publication
• This so-called "benefit" of protecting the student's work from others copying it, means that TurnItIn is protecting the student from him or herself! If the student never publishes the paper, then there's no worry of plagiarism, and therefore TurnItIn is providing no benefit to the student!
• The required archive actually increases the RISK of plagiarism, ESPECIALLY storing the paper on servers with crappy security on the internet, and emailing out the papers without the author's permission

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[pugugly]

I'm sure that judge also agrees that copying copyrighted materials over the internet without permission is providing a service too.

Of course he does - anything else would be rank hypocrisy.

I of course think that they're both unethical, but I am neither a judge nor a hypocritical bitch of the Copyright industry - but I repeat myself.

Pug

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[pbhj]

The point is that there are some rights/privileges than can Not be given-away via contract, because the U.S. laws supercede the contract. One of those rights is copyright.

Nope still sounds like bunkum. It's pretty standard practice for companies to make declarations in contracts about them assuming right to your intellectual property produced while you're at work (or using any resources of the business). As you say there are some rights they can't claim, moral rights (right to be named as author &c.) and also in many jurisdictions the author of the work can't be ripped off, they must be fairly compensated.

Sexual harassment is criminal, not tortuous like copyright infringement.

Re: the gun argument, it wasn't supposed to be extreme,just a common example of a perceived universal (within the US) right that is restricted by the property owner.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[JoshuaZ]

Incorrect. Sexual harassment is generally a civil offense. And copyright can sometimes be a criminal offense (generally when it is commercial on a large scale).

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[DudeTheMath]

You're a customer. You retain all your consumer rights per U.S. law.

A student may be a "customer" of the university, but most faculty are fighting (their own administration, generally, which is being/has been taken over by business types rather than academics; the secretaries have taken over the law firm) to keep that relationship from taking over the classroom. The professor (or instructor) is a teacher, a guide, not a "knowledge provider." Your putative professor who shows CN instead of leading the course is such an extreme example that I doubt that nonsense would last very long (tenure is revocable).

When I take my car to the shop, I don't expect to do any work; but if I want to get anything out of college classes, I have a responsibility (to myself, and by extension, to my classmates and the professor) to be an active learner. The usual ratio quoted is two to three hours outside of class for every hour in class. This doesn't resemble the usual consumer paradigm. Consumer law shouldn't apply. And when the university's lawyers are confident that a particular clause will hold up in court, chances are it already has.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[DudeTheMath]

Personal insults are uncalled for. You've never met her and have never taken a class from her. You do not appear to have a complete understanding of what a professor actually does.

She has never used turnitin; on legal advice from the university, she includes that clause in the syllabus. Again, it is the university legal staff (and that of most universities) that considers syllabi as contracts. Also, her syllabi are available before the first day of class; no one has to show up to find out what's in one. Finally, tuition is often due after the start of classes.

She has caught many plagiarists, all using her own research without, as I said, resorting to any of these comparison services (unless you include Google among the "search engine[s]" she does not need). Laziness? Once plagiarism is suspected (usually because of her face-to-face interactions with students), it can require hours of tracking down the student's sources and documenting them to build a case that will stand up to a review board. All that is time that is taken away from her primary mission of helping the honest students. Trust me: she wants to do her job. Plagiarists are the very, very worst part of it.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[DudeTheMath]

The university legal eagle is a shyster and a con artist.

FTFY. Save the personal attacks for someone you know personally. That clause is in the syllabus because the university legal staff says to put it in, and the university legal staff believes it will hold up in court.

Re:how do i find out if my teacher did that?

[DudeTheMath]

You raise a valid point. I do use the term "effectively" because that's how university lawyers want to treat them (primarily, I believe, as protection for both parties, such as a student who is graded on some basis not described in the syllabus) and have used them that way successfully in both arbitration and in court.

I was responding to an AC who described a paper submitted "without your consent," not to the general problem of turnitin and other such services. I understand, however, that the report from turnitin consists of a percentage matching other sources along with citations of those other papers, rather than a wholesale distribution of those previously submitted papers. I have a hard time considering the listing of matching portions to be a derivative work.

Who is really hurt by such services?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

If I choose to torpedo my own future by electing to use a paper uploaded to turnitin, the only one hurt is me.

Or is it?

How many people with tons of promise got turned down/away because of their inability to express themselves in some random test?

In the company of fellow nerds here on Slashdot, I have no qualms revealing this, but I sucked at written essays. But my intelligence isn't proved in some one-time essay. It's all about how I create real solutions for real problems. It's never about some random problem that some dumbfuck in some ivory tower created.

Choosing to bypass testing is the right answer, no matter what the question.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Planesdragon]

But my intelligence isn't proved in some one-time essay. It's all about how I create real solutions for real problems.

If you are incapable of taking a task, and expressing the solutition to said task in written form, then you're essentially sub-literate. Unless you're an astonishing genius, you're just a drain on your company due to your inability.

College doesn't test, train, or reward INTELLIGENCE. It tests, trains, and rewards LEARNING and ABILITY -- which are three very, very different things.

Choosing to bypass testing is the right answer, no matter what the question.

God, I would love to work for your competitor. "Sir, BadAnalogyGuy's company is beating us!" "Ok, just file a complaint. I'm sure that semi-literate guy did something wrong enough to slap them down."

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be bored, at work or home. You've been trolling slashdot all morning long.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Anonymous Coward]

It would depend upon the job you are seeking. Recently a great guy, insightful, good instincts, and ethical, who dealt very well with people was let go before his status became permanent, mainly because he could not write in a cogent manner with any speed - it took him all day to write what most finished in an hour. Unfortunately, the job required judgment, dealing well with people AND depends, in the end, on writing skills.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[causality]

College doesn't test, train, or reward INTELLIGENCE. It tests, trains, and rewards LEARNING and ABILITY -- which are three very, very different things.

I always saw it as testing and rewarding obedience, and the submission to allowing strangers to set your goals and priorities and otherwise to direct your efforts, to take on their tasks as if they were your own with a diligence that lasts well into what would otherwise be your personal time. To me this is the trait college tests which employers would find desirable in terms of obedient workers who don't raise a fuss and are relatively easy to manage. Innate ability determines whether you must focus on the task itself or the willingness to complete it, and learning just means you can more readily incorporate this unwritten lesson. Otherwise, very little that I've seen of formal education (in any form) had to do with testing your personal limits or expanding your mind or pushing your boundaries. The emphasis on rote as opposed to arrival by experience is evidence enough of this fact.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Vuojo]

"Ok, just file a complaint. I'm sure that semi-literate guy did something wrong enough to slap them down."

I love how the Americans think that suing everybody is the best solution for every problem.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Hognoxious]

But my intelligence isn't proved in some one-time essay.

Indeed. Your posting history is all the evidence we need.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[itsthebin]

they can just charge the lawyer to their credit cards ...

oh wait.....

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[causality]

"Ok, just file a complaint. I'm sure that semi-literate guy did something wrong enough to slap them down."

I love how the Americans think that suing everybody is the best solution for every problem.

That illness has a self-perpetuating nature, as does all aspects or expressions of "us against them." To sum it up, when you find yourself born and raised in an environment in which most recipients of most legitimate complaints are insensate and unreceptive, the "force of the law" nature of legal remedies become the only undeniable way to call attention to even the slightest injustice. All it really should take is for a person to stand up, with understanding, and call out those things which need to be addressed, to shine a light upon them and remove the shadows of excuses and other utilitarian purposes under which they are sheltered. By comparison, what we have now is not an underlying acknowledgement of human dignity or a celebration of harmony, but the primitive desire to avoid punishment.

It's such a precious thing, such an exquisite privilege, to put the lie to this pattern by nothing other than your living example of a higher order.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[clarkkent09]

But my intelligence isn't proved in some one-time essay. It's all about how I create real solutions for real problems. It's never about some random problem that some dumbfuck in some ivory tower created. Choosing to bypass testing is the right answer, no matter what the question.

Testing is not perfect but it does have a useful purpose. Yes, everybody is unique blah, blah, but there are millions of students at all levels in the USA and you got to classify them somehow by ability, so what method do you propose? The right answer is to keep improving the testing methods, not to bypass testing. A good test should present something like real world problems and take into account the difference in priorities for engineering students, versus, say English students etc. And by the way, the ability to communicate, including in writing, is very important even for nerds.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Anonymous Coward]

But my intelligence isn't proved in some one-time essay. It's all about how I create real solutions for real problems. It's never about some random problem that some dumbfuck in some ivory tower created.

*wince*

I think that's about as much raw insecurity I can take.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Anonymous Coward]

I always saw it as testing and rewarding obedience, and the submission to allowing strangers to set your goals and priorities and otherwise to direct your efforts, to take on their tasks as if they were your own with a diligence that lasts well into what would otherwise be your personal time.

College rewards you in proportion to the effort you expend. If you spent your time doing nothing but what was asked of you, then you probably have a fair bit of experience in being submissive and obedient.

If you had chosen to explore your own initiatives, you would have a much different perspective.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Repossessed]

You went to the wrong college then. Or maybe just had a liberal arts degree.

Try an actual science education.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[causality]

You went to the wrong college then. Or maybe just had a liberal arts degree.

Try an actual science education.

I refer not to subject matter but rather to the methods by which they teach and the spirit in which that is done.

Albert Einstein captured the essence of which I speak in a single sentence: "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education."

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[oldhack]

We like to kick everyone in the nuts, too, but that takes bit more work, not to mention the subspecies without nuts...

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[HadouKen24]

I have no idea how any halfway decent program in the liberal arts could possibly match Causality's description. My own professors definitely encouraged critical thinking and (at least attempts at) original analysis. It was, in fact, essential to understanding the material. One intended benefit was that students become better rounded, broader-minded people. A liberal arts education that attempts to create obedient, submissive students is not going to successfully teach the subject.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[JoshHeitzman]

you got to classify them somehow by ability

Why exactly is that?

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Anonymous Coward]

They could always just go on Slashdot and vent about those ugly Americans. Wouldn't accomplish anything but I guess they'd feel better!

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Hurricane78]

How dare you!

We'll see us in court!

Oh... wait... ;)

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Anonymous Coward]

lol I learned to question authority, that nothing is wrong that hurts no one, and that you can get away with almost anything if you're a mature person and take responsibility for your actions by cleaning it up yourself if something goes wrong. Oh and math and physics.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Repossessed]

My minor was in the humanities, and it was a bit of a mixed bag for me. A couple professors required us to have citations for everything in our papers. Most notably ethics, where I wasn't even allowed to talk about what my thoughts on Aristotle's ethics were, I had to have citations reporting what other people thought about it.

Of course, that professor got turned down for tenure.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[clarkkent09]

So that graduate schools and employers have something to go by when selecting candidates. Besides, is it fair to a student who worked hard for four years to start from the same point as someone who partied the whole time?

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[JimboFBX]

Unless you're drunk, then we think punching the problem in the face works pretty well.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Anonymous Coward]

have modded this discussion. I am in college studying to be a Substance Abuse Counselor, got about 3 more years before I get a Masters in Social Work or Psychology (it is up in the air right now)and all they want is dumbshit straight from the texts or lectures. I was a SAC for almost 3 years back in the early 90's, decided to do other work and then they started requiring fucking degrees when I decided to go back into the field. I missed the grandfathering provisions by about a year. They don't want real world experience or actual facts, just the tripe in the material.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[HadouKen24]

I should hope they were turned down for tenure. Only writing about what other people think about Aristotelian ethics is--if you'll pardon my Anglo-Saxon--fucking pointless.

History is a different bag than philosophy, though. Using plenty of citations makes sense there. Though given the various ways historical methods can and have been used, there's still plenty of room for critical thought and analysis.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[HadouKen24]

If your studies are directed toward entering a particular profession or vocation, then they are almost by definition NOT part of the liberal arts.

Psychology, in particular, is a social science. The social sciences are somewhat distinct from the liberal arts, though often closely related. If you're being forced to stick closely to the textbooks, it's likely because of the attempts in the last couple decades to make psychology more like the hard sciences--in which personal experience likewise lacks standing.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[michaelhood]

Well we can't imprison corporations or put them to the death, but further those alternatives would only apply to the enforcement of criminal law.

Spare me the elitism, and tell me how do you suggest civil law be enforced?

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[michaelhood]

To sum it up, when you find yourself born and raised in an environment in which most recipients of most legitimate complaints are insensate and unreceptive, the "force of the law" nature of legal remedies become the only undeniable way to call attention to even the slightest injustice.

This is very well said, and deserves modding up.

Civil action is oftentimes, unfortunately, the only way to get a 3rd party and/or the opposing side in your issue to take an actual look at your side of the argument

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Anonymous Coward]

I teach in a university.

I explain to my students that I do not grade on intelligence, or potential, or hard work. I do not grade the students per se at all. I evaluate the quality of their work. Good work gets good grades. When I get sob stories about personal difficulties - many of which are true - the best I can do is extend their opportunity to produce good work. I cannot give good grades for less-than-adequate performance, no matter how earnest, hard-working, and struggling the student might be. The grade is not an evaluation of the personal merit of the student, but rather an indication of what kind of work they are capable of producing.

A more obnoxious colleague of mine used to say, "I don't give grades. I just record them."

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[JoshHeitzman]

Employers have their own processes for screening candidates. GPAs and transcripts are crappy predictor for how well someone will do in a given job. A candidate who, while partying, developed a extensive network of valuable contacts, may well be of more benefit to an employer then one who worked hard at an endeavor that is of no value to the employer.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[rhombic]

Albert Einstein captured the essence of which I speak in a single sentence: "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education."

If you read up on the history of higher education, you'd understand that the systems referred to by Einstein in that quote (late 19th/early 20th century) essentially no longer exist. Today's system, at least in decent schools, lets you get out of it what you want. I'd say 70% of the student population in the school I went to was there to finish a BS in four-five years, while putting in as little effort and as much beer as possible. They'd plagiarize, cheat, or do anything else to get by. What they got back was a half-assed education, filled with exactly the sort of problems you descibe.

For a few of us it was a little bit different. By my junior year I was working 20+ hours a week as a paid assistant in a biochemistry lab, working closely with grad students, post-docs, & the profs (as well as a half-dozen other undergrad RAs). I rolled out of there with a fantastic science education, a strong network of professional connections that I continue to use today, 16 hours of transferrable gradute school coursework, and a level of comfort of how to work in a lab that made grad school actually fun.

The point is, the higher education system in which students can receive an individualized education delivering a high level of training in a technically challenging field does exist; actually it co-exists with the beer-swilling do-the-least-possible-work system. You just have to 1) be a little bit talented, 2) be willing to work your ass off, and 3) show some initiative.

Re:Who is really hurt by such services?

[Anonymous Coward]

The grade is not an evaluation of the personal merit of the student, but rather an indication of what kind of work they are capable of producing.

Nice paragraph, but I think you screwed up your punch line.

You judge what kind of work they are CAPABLE of producing? Or what work they actually produce?

Always did wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

I always did wonder how these plagiarism detection things were able to legally continue to operate. They obviously have to hold copies of works that were not uploaded by the original authors to compare this stuff to. Are they not in mass violation of copyright? Are not the teachers who uploaded this stuff at least as guilty as file sharers, I mean after all, my term papers from college are way more useful than a new tune from Bittany.

Re:Always did wonder

[Planesdragon]

They obviously have to hold copies of works that were not uploaded by the original authors to compare this stuff to. Are they not in mass violation of copyright?

No. Go read the standard of fair use again.

"Academic purposes" are one of the black-letter exemptions. If this were a college doing the bundle and offering it for-free to all participants, instead of a private company making a buck, this wouldn't even be a problem.

Re:Always did wonder

[Hognoxious]

I assume you're referring to the fact that it would be an infringement if someone sold photocopied knockoff textbooks?

Get back to us when Turnitin start buying and selling essays. By essays I mean the full text in its entirety. Not excerpts, not metadata, not statistics derived from them.

Re:Always did wonder

[Courageous]

They are first party to copies made in entirety to their servers, aren't they? (This question is rhetorical, I don't know the answer) A better way would be to have the hashcode algorithm run by the submitter, and only the hashcodes uploaded. This would be, IMO, a sustainable fair use argument.

C//

Re:Always did wonder

[calmofthestorm]

yes, but this wouldn't work as well. turnitin intends to catch running a paper through a theosaurus or rewriting the occasional sentence/paragraph. Change a single letter and you defeat hashing

Re:Always did wonder

[DriedClexler]

turnitin intends to catch running a paper through a theosaurus

What good would it to do to run a paper through a reptile god?

Unless you mean thesaurus ;-)

Re:Always did wonder

[TheRaven64]

Are not the teachers who uploaded this stuff at least as guilty as file sharers

Most universities claim copyright on any work students submit as coursework. Presumably the ones being sued failed to do this, but the staff working for them were under the impression that they did.

Re:Always did wonder

[theLOUDroom]

Most universities claim copyright on any work students submit as coursework.

Oh really? Where's your source for this one?

I paid for my classes and I own the work I did.

University funded graduate research is a different story, but that's pretty obviously not what we are talking about.

Re:Always did wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

My university gets students to upload the files themselves.

Re:Always did wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

As a teacher, I don't own the work I produce for the school I work in, and similarly, neither does the student. The school owns all rights pertaining to the works produced. This is the case, at least, in Australia.

Makes sense to me. This way, you don't have issues with the whole matter of using past responses as models etc.

Re:Always did wonder

[Nick Number]

What good would it to do to run a paper through a reptile god?

And why does it look so much like Malcolm-Jamal Warner?

Re:Always did wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

What?! You telling me that the fair use, "as long as your not making a profit" argument has been all but totally destroyed by the RIAA and the likes when being used as a defence for individuals - but it can still be used to screw us over?!

Be fair - if it stands for one, it stands for the other.

Re:Always did wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you mean thesaurus ;-)

That word is too complicated. Is there another one that means the same thing that you could use instead?

Re:Always did wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

So your standard is when they sell essays?

Using them tens of thousands of times per day in their revenue generating business, and storing them on a web server that can easily be hacked to retrieve them for free, and emailing them out for free without notifying the author isn't enough, eh?

Re:Always did wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

No, go read the "standard of fair use" again yourself. Fair Use does _not_ allow mass copyright infringement for academic purposes. Never has. See "textbooks". Fair use is about excerpts, not wholesale mass copyright infringement.

No, go read about "Fair Use" again yourself. Fair Use refers to an outline for a legal defense based on four factors, of which "the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole" is only one factor. It's not "about excerpts".

Re:Always did wonder

[Courageous]

Yes, but only for a portion of the document. I believe the class of algorithms they use do something along the lines of sliding windows and hashing, which is what they do with the documents when they receive them, and what they store in their databases, that they can determine matches.

C//

Gary Mckinnon

[RichardJenkins]

Why don't they just recruit Gary McKinnon? He may not be the greatest ever to have compromised a US military computer, but he could sure warn them of the dangers in leaving default passwords set.

"Citation Needed"

[Warhawke]

Anyone else find it exceedingly ironic that the slashdot summary was lifted word-for-word from Anon-a-blog?

Re:"Citation Needed"

[Anonymous Coward]

As author of both the anon-a-blog and the submission, I am cool with that!

Re:"Citation Needed"

[Anonymous Coward]

As a co-author of both anon-a-blog and the submitted entry, I'm cool with it too!

Re:"Citation Needed"

[Xtense]

As somebody completely unrelated to the submitted entry or Anon-a-blog, I'm also pretty much cool with it!

Classic Moment from the Appeal

[Anonymous Coward]

One of my favorite points in the Appeal was when Mr. Vanderhye made a point about the security of TurnItIn.

I can't quote it exactly... but when he made the point, nearly EVERY head nodded, including the three appellate judges. It was one of those made-for-TV moments. This was right around the time of the US Presidential election:

something like "You can bet if Barack Obama's or Sarah Palin's high school papers were stored on the *most secure server* on the internet, they would have been hacked. There's no doubt that a site with the lax security of TurnItIn would be hacked."

Man, ya shoulda been there!

Talk to your professor, opt out

[Grant The Great]

Seriously, each professor that I had that used this service specifically mentioned it the first day and it was written in the syllabus. I brought up an objection with each professor and they had no issue with me opting out and them presumably just googling various sentences in my papers. It wasn't an issue, the professors agreed with me when I voiced my objections about the privacy, copyright ownership, data retention, presumption of innocence, etc. The only reason that they used it was because the department head dictated it.

Exercise your rights. It's your paper. Remember, professors are people just like you. While they may believe you to be paranoid, they won't hold it against you if you voice your concerns with logic, passion, and conviction.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Bob9113]

they had no issue with me opting out

You do not have to, and should not have to, opt out of your creative works being infringed.

The only reason that they used it was because the department head dictated it.

If the department dictated that the professor should take your laptop, sell it on eBay, and give the money to some third party corporation, would you see the professor as having done no wrong? This corporation is building its cashflow on your creative work, without license. If they want to come to you and negotiate a deal to use your creative work in their business model, fine. Until then, it is yours.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone has an essay they wrote to opt out of the service with their professors, can I have it? I don't feel like writing my own.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Anonymous Coward]

Each professor that you had that you know used this service specifically mentioned it the first day.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Grant The Great]

You do not have to, and should not have to, opt out of your creative works being infringed.

You are absolutely right. This should be an opt in service with waiver or contract, unfortunately that's not the case. Complaining about it isn't going to fix it unless you can provide pressure to the people higher up in the food chain or by legal means. I was, however, a poor college student so I could only fight my own battles.

If the department dictated that the professor should take your laptop, sell it on eBay, and give the money to some third party corporation, would you see the professor as having done no wrong? This corporation is building its cashflow on your creative work, without license. If they want to come to you and negotiate a deal to use your creative work in their business model, fine. Until then, it is yours.

The main problem with this is, like another poster put it, every school has bylaws/student contracts/whatever o specifically say that they can do whatever they want with your work. While I completely and totally disagree with this, unless it's overturned in court or changed, it will continue to be the "law of the land." If they had provisions in said contract that you signed to take your possessions, then there's nothing you can do about it except challenge it.
I am not a revolutionary. I cared about my own work and acted to protect it, if everyone else cared as much then this wouldn't be a problem. This corporation is making money on others work, not mine. It is not my fault that the system is flawed, it is my problem though. It is not my problem that others do not see it our way, though it maybe my fault for not speaking out. At the end of the day, I can only act to protect myself, the fact that others are so apathetic or obedient to the system there isn't much I can do given time and money constraints. Though if someone organized a protest or petition drive to overturn this, I would certainly support it.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Grant The Great]

Aren't you a precious little snowflake? I assume your parents are big donors to the school.

Actually, I was a broke as shit college student paying my own tuition by working 60 hours a week on top of being a full time student so I wouldn't fall into unmanageable debt. I live by my principles and my convictions, when those are violated I act to correct them. Taking 10 minutes out of my day to right a wrong certainly isn't going to kill me, though it may inconvenience me.

The profs should given you two options - put up and shut up, or an F. I suspect most teachers have better uses for their time than googling random phrases, especially when the college is already paying for an automated method.

Professors get paid by my check every semester. They are there because students like me say they can be. I suspect that they felt it is worth letting one student opt out than it would be to fight it. Sure, they may already be paying for he automated response, but this article mentioned a lawsuit which is nearly ironclad in that students are in fact having their rights violated. Do you think that colleges have a standing order to willfully disregard student's wishes in regards to an already murky legal area? It wouldn't make sense; they'd accept my wishes to opt out, spend the extra time, and go on with their lives.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

I think you're severely overstating the problem.

My uni made it clear that they reserved the right to use turnitin for certain assignments, as a condition of enrolment, and I would guess other universities would do the same. So, it's not technically opt out as it is making an exception for your opting in.

And the fact that it's head department policy is neither here nor there. The university wants it, you agreed to it, make a deal if you want an exception.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Bob9113]

I didn't mean my post to be an attack on you. More on the system.

A big part of "the system" is that the system pushes us to "be reasonable." To find reasonable solutions to problems, as you did.

The problem with that is while we are being reasonable, the corporations are being sociopathic. That is a recipe for a steady slide.

I'm just trying to encourage you and others to be unreasonable. It is the reasonable thing to do when presented with an unreasonable system.

Of course, the system punishes those who do not conform. That implies that there are times you should choose not to fight or choose a less confrontational approach. This may be one of them.

But if we all keep being reasonable, this great experiment will continue to crumble. Not your fault, per se, just a fact.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all professors are so accommodating. I used TurnItIn one time, if we didn't use that, we failed the class. No exceptions. Providence College FTW!

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[hedwards]

That's because there isn't really any point to turnitin other than sloth. I remember talking to some of the faculty when I was in college about that, and the reality is that while some people are subtle about it, that takes a lot of work to plagiarize in a way that's difficult to detect. Most of the time it's more or less self evident and googling a couple of those sentences will reveal the cheating.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Albanach]

they had no issue with me opting out

Perhaps you should send a couple of essays to the attorney to find out if you really did manage to opt out. Perhaps one or more of your professors just nodded and uploaded the text anyway?

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Miseph]

"That implies that there are times you should choose not to fight or choose a less confrontational approach."

Only if you're being reasonable.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[dkf]

Exercise your rights. It's your paper. Remember, professors are people just like you. While they may believe you to be paranoid, they won't hold it against you if you voice your concerns with logic, passion, and conviction.

Also remember these things:

1. Your chances of making anything off any paper or code you write for a course (other than by using them to pass the course) are essentially nil. Almost all student work is really not very good by comparison with people doing it professionally; the additional experience shows. This doesn't apply to people in grad school, but they should be thinking for themselves anyway. It also doesn't apply to final year dissertations; they're sometimes interesting and worth taking further, if the student is willing to stick around.
2. You don't have the right to graduate. Your professors will definitely want you do so - we don't like people failing - but if you insist on being bone idle, utterly crap, or a cheat, why shouldn't you get found out and kicked out?

Yes, I do teach. No, most student work submitted for my course isn't reusable for anything, not even the really impressive stuff. Yes, I fail the lazy, the stupid and the cheats, and I do it without the slightest care in the world. And no, kicking up a fuss over this doesn't make me think more highly of you; it makes me more suspicious that you're trying to sneak work in twice. But if you're trying to learn, I'm on your side, even if you're having problems; an honest success (at whatever level is apt for your ability) is the best outcome possible.

(I also happen to work at a university that makes turning over copyright of submitted coursework a condition of acceptance as an undergraduate student. If you don't like it, there are other universities; piss off.)

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I had a professor for Business Ethics at RIT that would submit our papers to turn it in for us. I did object to this the first day I heard about this and he told me I would have to drop the class if I didn't like it. I needed it to stay on my course map so I just left it at that and gave him my paper. He was the only one teaching an ethics course that time of the year (summer)

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[pbhj]

Exercise your rights. It's your paper.

Is it. You make it at their behest and give it to them. Unless you apply licensing terms surely they're entitled to do as they please with it within the usual confines of the law.

Of course you don't have to give it them if you feel it's worth more to you in some other way.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Hognoxious]

Professors get paid by my check every semester. They are there because students like me say they can be.

So yes, you do think you're a precious little snowflake. And arrogant to boot.

There's plenty more where you came from.

this article mentioned a lawsuit which is nearly ironclad in that students are in fact having their rights violated.

It says nothing of the sort. It's equally likely that it's just cheaper to settle.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Hognoxious]

If the department dictated that the professor should take your laptop, sell it on eBay, and give the money to some third party corporation, would you see the professor as having done no wrong?

Get back to us when that happens. Meantime, learn what a strawman is.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Anonymous Coward]

This corporation is building its cashflow on your creative work, without license.

Well, unless you're one of the cheats of course, in which case it's building its cashflow on somebody else's creative work.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Anonymous Coward]

Professors are at institutions because hiring committees say they can be. Hiring committees get to choose professors because they are building departments that students want to enroll in, because it accords those students a certain amount of prestige and recognition to have graduated from those departments. In most universities, students are competing to enter a university filled with departments that have already hired their professors.

Professors are paid by the universities to give classes, evaluate students, perform research, and produce original work. They are not paid by the students to train them, unless you're talking about an extension course. You really are being a precious little snowflake.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Anonymous Coward]

We also mentioned this in the very first lecture, and the course profile (syllabus) for the course which is available to view before you start the semester. If you disagree with it you can opt out of the entire course. If it's a core subject, tough, opt out of our university. After all it is made clear from day 1 of your first subject what the uni on the whole thinks about plagiarism and that certain assignments at digression of the course coordinator will be put through turnitin.

Usually I fully agree with the ideas put forward here by the masses on slashdot, but in this case I find it hard to justify the calls when I see every semester at least 1 student in each course get caught by the system. Sometimes it's a case of copying just small sections from another student, and sometimes submitting whole assignments previously done by friends or siblings no longer at the university.

I would love to be able to trust every student and not have to go through with this analysis of their submitted work, but I can't. You say you're worried about your copyrights? I say I'm worried about cheating bottom-feeders potentially taking your future job because they have STOLEN a higher grade point average than you without doing any work for it.

Disclaimer: I speak with the experience as being an engineering tutor of one of the top 5 Australian universities.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Chapter80]

Actually I had a professor for Business Ethics at RIT that would submit our papers to turn it in for us. I did object to this the first day I heard about this and he told me I would have to drop the class if I didn't like it.

How ironic! An ethics course!
PLEASE contact that lawyer with this example! This would be an interesting case to see in court. I hope you saved one of your papers, and that it was unpublished elsewhere.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Anonymous Coward]

So the basis of your argument is that at least one student in each course gets caught, and the end (catching someone) justifies the means (permanently archiving my work, which I would rather destroy at the end of the course, which of course would do a better job in protecting the work than storing it on a permanent, non-secure archive.

Your logic is based on several fallacies:
1) that the only way to catch the cheaters is using TurnItIn (i.e. could they be caught using Google searches, or simply by using testing methods that reveal their deficiencies?
2) that this system is effective
3) that cheaters can get higher GPAs than non-cheaters.
4) that the system is adequately protecting large library of student papers. (Hint, their terms and conditions are worded in such a way that they don't have to, and there are allegations that they don't.)

Have you READ the Terms and Licensing agreement? If you haven't, you really need to.

Quite a business model they have there. If I were the cheating type, I would go to the internet's "largest trove of unprotected term papers" and shop for a paper. Maybe change a few words so that it doesn't get detected by the crappy service, and get an A in your course. Are you sure that there aren't five students in each course doing that? (catch 1, and make it easier for the other 5.... good job!)

Personally, I'm quite happy knowing that my high school papers cannot be dug up and mocked at. When you're willing to post all of your high school work onto the internet, get back to us.

Re:Talk to your professor, opt out

[Ares]

Your chances of making anything off any paper or code you write for a course (other than by using them to pass the course) are essentially nil.

and without my paper and those of other students, the chances of turnitin making anything aren't essentially nil, they are nil.

Questionable moderation

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent post looks on-topic to me...

But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[MickyTheIdiot]

In a way it's too bad that this didn't go to trial. Back when I was working in the Academic sector there was occasionally firestorms between students and faculty about this subject.

The major university I worked for (which will remain unnamed obviously) had it in the student contract (or code or bylaws or whatever) that the copyright of anything turned in by a student was owned by the university. I am guessing many universities do the same thing.

So it would have been interesting to see if that sort of fine print clause in a student agreement with a state institution would of held up. If it does I would think that the student didn't really have a case.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Anonymous Coward]

The major university I worked for
would of

You worked for a university, but apparently you've never taken a 7th-grade English class.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Anonymous Coward]

How are they going to claim that a work by the student is copyrighted by the university? If they were paying me a salary then I could see it, but they're not. I'm paying for the education, so it's mine.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Bureaucromancer]

At my school there's nothing about copyright being handed over (in fact, as to TurnItIn, faculty are enoucraged to use it, but have to make it optional; usually means doing an annoted bibliography if you refuse) but there is a clause that they will consider any submission of previously marked work as plagarism. E.G. if a single paper is valid as course work in more than one course, and you hand it in twice they will consider it plagarized (I think there may be something to the effect that written permission can void this actually, never seen it given though). Not exactly the same thing, and I can see the university having an interest in this not happening, but I find the very idea one could "plagarize" oneself laughable, and the policy is honestly just as insulting as TurnItIn requirements. If a prof really needs new work just put it in the bloody course requirements.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[mysidia]

Students have a reasonable expectation of retaining the intellectual and moral rights to their own personal work, unless they have sold it, or worked for the university. Trying to covertly force students to sign exclusive rights over to all their work in advance would be a gross ethics violation.

It's maybe not even enforceable if the student wasn't offered fair compensation for the rights being transferred.

You will assign all copyrights for any work you ever make and utilize for a class assignment, without renumeration whatsoever, sounds like a good example of an unconscionable contract...

If it's in the bylaws, student code, or other document not available at contract signing (or if the contract doesn't actually get signed), then it may also be unenforceable on that basis.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that such a contract is illegal in many jurisdictions.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Gribflex]

Agreed -- my University did the exact same thing.
As for having to agree to the terms of handing over your copyright -- it was in the terms that you agreed to when you applied and registered.

You never signed a 'I waive my copyright' agreement, but you did sign an 'I agree to the terms, conditions and code of conduct as laid out in the calendar' agreement -- those terms included the copyright transfer deal.

The copyright transfer was not 100% though, you were still guaranteed attribution, but the University was allowed to republish as they wished.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Anonymous Coward]

All the Universities I worked for (in several countries) explicitly state that the copyright of works created by students are theirs (for example theses). I don't know which is your "major" university, but surely it is not mainstream, at least regarding student's copyright...

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Chees0rz]

At my school there's nothing about copyright being handed over (in fact, as to TurnItIn, faculty are enoucraged to use it, but have to make it optional; usually means doing an annoted bibliography if you refuse)

TurnItIn should not be a replacement for an annotated bibliography. If you're not required to cite everything, then you're probably not getting a good education (Chees0rz, 2009). This is an important skill... As a side note- It always angered me in HS when the teacher would leave comments on my paper like "your words?" Yes they're my words- or I would have cited/quoted it.

if a single paper is valid as course work in more than one course, and you hand it in twice they will consider it plagarized...If a prof really needs new work just put it in the bloody course requirements.

It does not take much to seek this permission. Also, a verbatim copy of the original paper would be very difficult to effectively use for two different classes... so only an idiot (read: most college students) wouldn't make some edits (ie. Use the same research, prove different thesis). Many universities have this rule, but given Professors are People- I doubt many would object to two SIMILAR papers with two SIMILAR class appropriate theses (plural of thesis??!).

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[tepples]

How are they going to claim that a work by the student is copyrighted by the university? If they were paying me a salary then I could see it, but they're not.

Your college credit is the salary. The consideration for this salary is 1. tuition and fees, plus 2. assignment of copyright in covered works.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[tepples]

You will assign all copyrights for any work you ever make and utilize for a class assignment, without renumeration whatsoever, sounds like a good example of an unconscionable contract...

Remuneration shall include credit for the course.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[hedwards]

Colleges may believe that, but I don't think that would stand up in court. You're paying them tuition and fees in order to get credits and hopefully a degree. The papers belong to the student as the student is the only one with the legal right to redistribute the papers. Now, there may be some whining about it being scholastic dishonesty to do so, but it's the right of the owner of the copyrighted information to redistribute it.

I don't think that the colleges are buying the work as part of a trade for the degree is something which college students are ever informed about or required to agree to. I certainly don't recall anybody asking me about that nor do I remember signing anything that gave them the rights to my work. There are exceptions in grad school for that sort of thing, but in those cases it's typically pretty clear, research done in grad school is typically owned by whomever it was that paid for it to be conducted.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[hedwards]

Technically speaking the professors aren't doing their jobs if they're duplicating work in different courses. If you take two different classes the course material is supposed to be different. It's really the duty of the professors involved not to waste students time in that manner. I'm sure it happens every once in a while with generic what did you do over the summer assignments, but for the most part they shouldn't be assigning duplicate homework like that.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[hedwards]

I don't know where you live, but that sort of thing is probably not enforceable here. That would be a pretty blatant violation of state law governing how contracts may be interpreted. In order to win the case the college would have to demonstrate that they had made it sufficiently clear what they were asking for and that there was a meeting of the minds over it.

Courts around here tend to frown on easter egg hunts in contracts, particularly those that include references to other documents and where one couldn't reasonably be expected to understand the whole thing.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[elthicko]

While I agree that courses can sometimes be frustratingly similar, there are legitimate times where the situation of one paper being valid for another course will come up. For example, in earlier years in University, one will typically take courses on general topics (e.g. 16th Century Literature). In that class you may decide to write a paper on Shakespeare. Then a year or two later you may find yourself in a course focusing just on Shakespeare. Depending on how you wrote your first paper, you may be able to hand in the same paper again at some point during this course.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[bentcd]

Technically speaking the professors aren't doing their jobs if they're duplicating work in different courses.

Let's say in one course you're required to write an essay on the economics of crime and in another you are asked to write about US society during the Great Depression. These are rather different topics for different courses so it's difficult to say that they are duplicated. Within those broad topics you get to pick a more specific subject as you like. So you write about gangsters, smuggling, gambling and the illegal entertainment industry in the Chicago of the early '30s. You turn in the same paper for both courses. Profit! (If you're enterprising you might write two slightly different versions, each geared towards a specific course for those extra credits, but hey - there's a party tonight and who cares about top grades anyway.)

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like someone did a lot more work than they had to.

A lot of times I'd have two pretty much unrelated classes with sufficiently open prompts to write one overlapping paper.

For example, if you took one class on engineering ethics and another class was on environmental studies, you could very likely write a single paper about the pros and cons of material usage decisions in some common object. Your thesis just needs to be something along the lines of

"The use of should be deterred as it is bad for the environment and, thus, bad for people"

The reality is that the more open a prompt is, the more likely you can choose your topic wisely.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[blueskies]

Kinda like how no college has EVER felt entitled to any of the patents its grad students were granted based on research while there? Colleges never get any share of inventions by their students....

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not that simple.

In many PhD programs, students start a concept in one class, then expand upon it using a different technique, method of analysis, etc. in future classes. The net result for papers in each of these classes will show up on turnitin as plagiarized as large sections of text may not have changed if they aren't relevant to the different approach being tried. (Example: A basic introduction to the topic doesn't change much whether it is being analyzed with dynamic or formal modeling, but the underlying work for the modeling section is radically different)

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Gribflex]

I think it would fall in the same category as a EULA. Very, very few people will actually read a EULA before clicking I Agree, but it's still considered enforceable in court.

In our case, it wasn't actually that hidden either. It was in the general guidelines section where you could find other things on sexual harassment, drug use, plagiarism, etc. And, if I recall correctly, it was phrased in pretty plain English (something like: 'All work submitted for course credit becomes property of the University.')

Because it was the calendar, the University was assured that everyone had read at least part of it (you had to in order to select any courses).

I just took a look at the online version of the new calendar (haven't looked in 7 years) and the policy that I remember seems to have been replaced with something more thorough, but it may not be in as obvious a place as before. I think that it's still pretty clear though.

--- snip ---

The creator owns the IP, unless:

3.1 The regulations of the sponsor of grant or contract research require different IP ownership provisions.

3.2 The University and University member have entered into a written agreement to share ownership of the IP.

3.3 The IP comprises course materials that are being commercialized; in which case, the University and the creator will have 50:50 ownership.

3.4 The IP is the result of a written agreement with a University member or a contract for services; in which case, the University shall retain ownership rights and control of the IP. This clause shall not apply to any undergraduate or graduate student where the work is part of their progress toward meeting their degree requirements.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Rudolf]

Remuneration shall include credit for the course

What if I don't complete the class or fail the class or otherwise don't get credit? Does that mean there was no renumeration and I get to keep my copyrights?

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[dkf]

Depending on how you wrote your first paper, you may be able to hand in the same paper again at some point during this course.

If you're submitting a paper twice, two years apart, then you're failing to apply what you've learned in between. That's just lazy, and misses the whole point of getting a proper education. Show off that you have been listening and thinking between times, at least a bit...

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[tepples]

Remuneration shall include credit for the course

What if I don't complete the class or fail the class or otherwise don't get credit? Does that mean there was no renumeration and I get to keep my copyrights?

Correction: Remuneration shall include a chance for credit for the course. And as I understand the contract law concerning invitations to bargain, "a chance for" is valid consideration, much like buying an option on a film script.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[elthicko]

That's just lazy

Agreed, there is no question it is lazy. And please don't get me wrong, I don't condone the practice. I am just pointing out there are times in which this 'opportunity' presents itself and it's not really the fault of the professor.

... misses the whole point of getting a proper education

From experience I know that many can receive top marks on resubmitted work. You are either already at a very high standard, and thus it is arguable if the effort of writing another extremely similar paper (which could be spent elsewhere) would be worth the educational benefit, or standards are not high enough.

at least a bit...

Problem is, you probably need a substantially different paper to avoid plagiarism of your own work, not just a bit different.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not remuneration for your work. You are paying for the exams and certification with your tuition and fees. At its base, that is what college is about.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Penguinoflight]

He must have fit in really well.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Sockatume]

"Self-plagiarisim" is actually a real concern, not in the "oh that's so unfair you cheater" sense but in terms of academic conduct. Plenty of researchers have been hauled up for republishing the same results or the same entire papers several times in order to boost publication records, which completely fucks with the scientific process, and it pisses off publishers for obvious reasons.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[tepples]

You are paying for the exams and certification with your tuition and fees.

That's like saying I'm paying for cable television with the advertisements and therefore I have the right to "steal" cable television. The schools in question would revise your comment as follows: "You are paying for the exams and certification with your tuition, fees, and copyright assignments."

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Mr2001]

I think it would fall in the same category as a EULA. Very, very few people will actually read a EULA before clicking I Agree, but it's still considered enforceable in court.

Not necessarily.

Re:But is this REALLY copyright infringement?

[Ares]

quoting myself from a week ago:

actually, there is a rising trend at educational institutions to go the opposite direction, as far as ip that is academic in nature. the university of minnesota in 2007 adopted new copyright guidelines in which "The University shall maintain the strong academic tradition that vests copyright ownership of academic works in the faculty."

going further into that policy,

In this spirit, the University encourages faculty and students to exercise their interests in ownership and use of their copyrighted works in a manner that provides the greatest possible scholarly and public access to their work.

and

Consistent with academic tradition, University faculty and students shall own the copyright in the academic works they create...

and then goes on to list exceptions consistent with other third-party contracts, directed works, specially commissioned works, etc.

given its rankings, i'd consider the university of minnesota to be a "major" university.

Mod Parent +1 Insightful

[Carl.E.Pierre]

This is one of those times that i am angry at myself for wasting my Mod points. Very good response sir!

Totally Unfair!

[Bob9113]

Copyright law is supposed to protect corporations from potential customers. It is not meant to be used to protect authors from corporations. This is a perfectly honest corporation advancing its agenda by innocently infringing the copyright of authors. Corporations are supposed to get unequal protection under the law. How this court could see fit to apply the law equally in this case is beyond me.
 
/sarcasm

Re:Totally Unfair!

[calmofthestorm]

Go back to Libertaria!

Re:Totally Unfair!

[mdwh2]

When copyright law prohibit some kid from downloading unlicensed music it is unfair, but when copyright law allows them to bypass the normal rules of academic honestly, it is all the rage.

When copyright law applies to sharing a few mp3s, it's worth millions of dollars in fine, but when company profits from other people's work, and bypasses the normal rules of academic honesty, it is all the rage.

This settlement is even more sad that the RIAA settlements. In the RIAA cases, there is likely no long term damage.

Except for someone being financially ruined for life, sure.

In this case the lesson taught to kids is to attack those who are trying to help you, and that self serving immediate needs are paramount to long term goals.

The lesson is: you own the copyright to your own work, and perhaps private companies shouldn't be using other people's work to profit from, without permission. Unless you are seriously suggesting it's one rule for the RIAA, and another for individuals?

I'm not sure how that is "attacking those who are trying to help you". If they're doing such a helpful service, then why not ask for permission?

Re:Totally Unfair!

[Anonymous Coward]

handing in a paper twice for different assignments is honest so long as you've written it. if the professor doesn't like it, he needs to reword the assignment.

I had an issue similar to this.

[spartin92]

Last year my history teacher gave me a had time because I felt it was immoral and illegal for her to post my report without my permission. After days of waiting and a parent teacher conference (high school still :/) she just dropped the issue but didn't inform the rest of her classes that they didn't have to submit it. I licensed it under a Creative Commons Non-commercial use license. She probably just submitted it. :/

Re:I had an issue similar to this.

[Qubit]

Email the lawyer -- they could probably get a court order to do discovery on Turn-it-in's database. If the paper isn't in the database, then no biggie. If the paper is in the database as you surmise, Turn-it-in probably isn't going to get smacked as hard as your teacher, but it's one more chance for a plaintiff to get a judgment against the company.

Re:I had an issue similar to this.

[Albanach]

I licensed it under a Creative Commons Non-commercial use license.

The revenge of the geeks. Students now have to shrink wrap their essays with an EULA saying that by opening you have agreed to the terms of the Creative Commons Non-Commercial Use license.

I do hope you included the attribution required clause!

Re:I had an issue similar to this.

[Brianwa]

I once placed a TOS on an essay stating that any for profit use of the content required a $5 fee, sent to the author. I never did get any mailbox money from turnitin.com.

Hilarious

[wasmoke]

FTFA:
"The lawsuit filed against Turnitin's parent company, iParadigms LLC, seeks $150,000 for each of six papers written by the students....'This case is not about money, and we don't expect to get that.'"
Not about the money? ORLY? Do you honestly think these high school kids give two s**ts about their little papers?

Re:Hilarious

[jopsen]

FTFA: Not about the money?

They probably just wanna make them pay :)

Re:Hilarious

[Immostlyharmless]

Considering a custom written paper usually goes for a couple of hundred bucks if you contact a "paper writing service", even at 150,000 per infringement, they are still no where NEAR the outrageous multiple that the *IAAs want.

Did they copy or distribute?

[fluffy99]

It seems like they ought to be suing the teacher for distributing and/or reproducing the paper, not the company. As I understand it, the company merely received the copies and stored them. Or does the company allow other teachers to download potentially similar papers if there is a match flagged? Its the same argument about downloading music not being the issue, but rather allowing others to download it from you.

Re:Did they copy or distribute?

[Anonymous Coward]

Laws apply to the acceptor as well as the provider. Here are two common examples. It is a crime to "receive stolen goods". A "john" can be prosecutes for accepting services from a prostitute.

So, yes TurnItIn can be liable for accepting copyrighted materials from someone not authorized to sell them.

Re:Did they copy or distribute?

[Anonymous Coward]

The company adds the works to their databases of materials and in the future use it to check against newly submitted papers. They are profiting off the work of the students but getting a bad rap over it. Some of the Professors at my Uni that were all for it are completely opposed to it now. It is a waste of their time because they get false positives on stupid stuff like two word combinations like 'Civil War' or 'Revolutionary War'. The see the money being wasted on this software/service and realize the money can be utilized on something else that actually matters.

Re:Did they copy or distribute?

[pembo13]

> It seems like they ought to be suing the teacher for distributing and/or reproducing the paper, not the company.

The company is the one profiting.

Re:Did they copy or distribute?

[Trepidity]

Yes, but as we've been trying to hammer into the RIAA's defenders for a few years now, suing someone for copyright infringement requires proving that they distributed copies.

Re:Did they copy or distribute?

[mea37]

Er, no... distribution is not the only reserved right under copyright. It just happens to be the one most closely applicable to the facts the RIAA keeps bringing to the table.

If I provide a copy of a protected work and you receive it, we can both be liable. (Depending of course on circumstances such as fair use.)

Use judo

[Qubit]

Instead of fighting a big company yourself, just direct the weight of a big company to do itself in.

1. Write a paper. A really, really good paper. A research paper.
2. Get it accepted by a big journal. A really, really big journal like Nature.
3. Now somehow get this sucker added to Turn-it-in's database. Maybe you wrote the paper as a thesis and the prof needs to check it. Whatever.
4. Let the journal know that Turn-it-in has your paper. The paper to which they hold exclusive rights.
5. Pop some popcorn and sit back and let Nature do a little "Hulk Smash!".
6. The End.

(of course there would be several key problems in carrying out such a plan, but it would be delightfully amusing if you could pull it off)

Re:Use judo

[belmolis]

This won't work, for two reasons. First, the journal won't give a hoot that Turnitin has a copy of the paper because the only use to which Turnitin puts the paper, internal comparison with submitted student papers, does not interfere with any interest of the journal's. Second, if the journal has any sense it will consult its attorney, who will advise it that it has no case because Turnitin's holding of a copy of the paper was: (a) licensed by its author when he or she submitted it; and (b) probably constitutes fair use. The journal's attorney will also advise it that even if it could win the case for infringement, it would be unable to establish any damages, and that the statutory damages available would not be worth the trouble.

Re:Use judo

[Anonymous Coward]

That's called Self-plagiarism. It depends on what field your in but ACM definitely has rules against it in their publications terms.

Re:Use judo

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares? Morally ACM is somewhere between a spammer and a recording industry association.

Re:Use judo

[pbhj]

3. Now somehow get this sucker added to Turn-it-in's database. Maybe you wrote the paper as a thesis and the prof needs to check it. Whatever.

If you upload it you're the one copying it. You granted Nature an exclusive license and so are in breach. It is you who Nature will "Hulk Smash!". If you're really on a roll Turn-it-in will remove the data and then sue you as well for breaching their terms when you uploaded data that you knew you didn't have rights to copy thus causing them loss of trade and reputation to the order of, oh I don't know ... one-million-pounds ... [pinky-twist]

Re:Use judo

[cashman73]

Not to mention the near impossibility of some random student's paper being published in a top-notch journal like Nature without any help from the student's professor. Um, yeah,... good luck with that!

Doubful

[aepervius]

The university probably got in the contract that the student give a perpetual non revokable right to the university to use/give/copy the work without a fee. But unelss they qualify for as "work for hire" they retain the original copyright. Mind you it is not the same for work given to doctorant : their result is then really a work for hire and owned by the university.

You paid, but you didn't pay enough

[tepples]

You're paying them tuition and fees in order to get credits and hopefully a degree.

Simply repeating that this (without the copyright assignment) is sufficient consideration is like repeating that "stealing"[1] cable television is OK because the shows on basic cable have advertisements.

The papers belong to the student as the student is the only one with the legal right to redistribute the papers.

And also the only one with the legal right to assign this copyright to another party.

[1] In before "it's not stealing." Theft of services is the legal term.

Because most of us are ***holes

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't log in right now...

But here in the grand ole U.S. of A. our society gives and educates people with the -illusion- of their individuality, their own precious corporation of one, that they are special at least in their own mind.

If you approach someone with a loud stereo more often than not they get pissed off because you are infringing on -their- imagined rights (see loud Harleys or wake boat issues in the states).

We have no moderator, magistrate, or local social council for such issues, and more importantly we have a large population of people who are socially uneducated how to approach others, reasonably, to get the things they need from others because of the aforementioned individuality illusion.

Disregarding the greedy, the only option left to us is sue. IMHO.

I got ripped off then

[Gates82]

Your college credit is the salary.

If course credit and a piece of paper is their payment to me then I got ripped off. I hate the higher education system, but have learned to deal with its shortcomings and maneuver through the system to get my piece of paper so that I could finally have my work experience count towards a PE license. I was very annoyed while streaming my graduation ceremony* that the president of the university bestowed my degree upon me with recommendation from the faculty. BS I earned that degree, fulfilled all requirements for such and in then end it was because they felt I was worthy not because I actually did anything.
*I only watched graduation because the president was speaking and wanted to hear what he would say to students who are thousands of dollars in debt as a result of school and graduating in a time of almost no jobs. Worst commencement speech I've ever heard (not that I've been to many graduations).

--
So who is hotter? Ali of Ali's Sister?

That's not how "copyright" works

[jkhuggins]

Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

Copyright doesn't grant a universal right to control a creative work. Keep in mind that the purpose of copyright is to *encourage* more creative works, not less; in doing so, copyright law will grant certain limited rights of control to the copyright owner in order to encourage more work.

The famous "fair use" test provides an exemption to copyright law, and depends upon the famous four point test. Basically, courts can consider four issues in determining whether or not use of other works without permission is allowable:

1. The purpose and character of the use of the work. If the use of the work creates something "new" rather than just providing a copy, the use is more likely to be allowable. Educational use is also more allowable than commercial use, but this isn't an absolute trump card.
2. The nature of the work being copied. You can't copyright facts or ideas, only expressions thereof.
3. The amount and substantiality of the work being copied. In general, the less you copy, the better; even then, though, what you copy matters. (The last minute of Citizen Kane is a little more key to understanding the movie than, say, a random minute from the middle of the movie.)
4. The effect of the use upon the value of the work. Does the copy provide enough of a substitute that people would be less likely to buy the original? If so, the copy is less likely to be allowable. This doesn't affect criticism, however ... a negative review of a book or movie might have an impact on its sales, but that doesn't make quoting the book or movie a violation of fair use

Now, this isn't an all-or-nothing or add-up-the-points analysis. Courts take all matters into consideration.

In the actual decision, the court ruled:

1. The plagiarism detector was definitely a "new work" created from the old works, and therefore was likely to be permissable.
2. The nature of the work was not a factor in the decision, either way.
3. The amount of the work was not a factor in the decision; while whole works were used, they were only used in limited ways (i.e. to compare for plagiarism).
4. The use of the papers did not affect the market value of the works, therefore favoring the use.

On the whole, then, the tool was deemed to be fair use.

Re:That's not how "copyright" works

[commodore64_love]

>>>The use of the papers did not affect the market value of the works, therefore favoring the use.

So if I write a script for Star Trek, to be submitted whenever it returns to television, the copy up on Turnitin won't affect my sale? Yeah right. Why should Paramount pay me when they can just grab a free copy off that website. Or worse, pay turnitin.com for the script rights instead of paying me, the original author.

Maybe today's management is honest, but companies tend to go downhill and it wouldn't surprise me if some future CEO at turnitin.com decides to start selling the papers, scripts, stories, and other creative output in his possession.

Re:That's not how "copyright" works

[jkhuggins]

The Star Trek analogy is flawed. If your Star Trek script is submitted to Turnitin, you still retain the copyright to the original script. And if Paramount acquires a copy of the script from Turnitin, they'd still have to pay you for the right to use it. As to the future ... if I could predict it, would I be posting here?

Re:That's not how "copyright" works

[Ares]

i would argue that the court applied the "new work" prong correctly, as well as the second and third prongs. however, by creating the "new works", turnitin in essence created a market for students' works, even if it was a market completely internal to itself. in doing so, it raised the market value of the students' works from the value they have from potential plagiarizers (i like to think that we can agree that prior to turnitin, this is the only market that probably 99% of student assignments has) to value as a tool used by those who would combat plagiarism. this conclusion seems logical because were it not for the students' works in the first place, turnitin wouldn't have a product to market.

Re:That's not how "copyright" works

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the "market" for plagiarism checking submissions against the student's particular paper exists with or without TurnItIn.

The courts have removed my right to exclusively protect my works, and given it to TurnItIn.

In other words, if I wanted to start my own plagiarism-checking service, I should be able to start with my body of previously written, but unpublished school papers. I would be in direct competition with TurnItIn, and have a competitive advantage in that segment of the market of protecting against plagiarism of MY works. Why should an agent of a school (TurnItIn) be allowed to steal my competitive advantage in the market of protecting my own works?

$150,000 per paper

[mdwh2]

Well it's the going rate asked for by the RIAA. I wondered why they settled - if a few mp3s can result in a fine of millions of dollars, why not the same for some papers?

(Disclaimer: No, I don't think that sharing mp3s, or papers, should result in a fine of millions, the issue here is about consistency in law. Also, I think it's reasonable to have more sympathy with copying done for free, versus someone trying to make a profit from someone else's work as is the case with TurnItIn - if the RIAA was only suing people who were selling pirated CDs etc, I doubt anyone would care.)

Bad summary

[Dachannien]

Now the search goes out for any student who has a paper which is being held by TurnItIn that they did not upload themselves.

Er, no. It was pure supposition on the part of the blog author that the lawyers might be interested in hearing from more students.

On a side note, the students lost. Twice. They were also facing accusations of unauthorized access to the TurnItIn site, and opted to settle rather than face the prospect of actually having to pay for poking the hornets' nest (the district court had ruled against the company, but the Court of Appeals reversed and remanded that decision). Meanwhile, the TurnItIn people had already gotten a favorable judgment on the copyright issue, which serves to dissuade other people from trying to push the issue - no reason to risk that at the Supreme Court if you don't have to.

If I were the lawyers on this case, I wouldn't want to touch it again with a ten-meter cattleprod.

Re:Bad summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, no. It is pure supposition on YOUR part that the blog author didn't speak to the lawyer (or aren't one in the same). This anonymous coward knows otherwise.

Re:Bad summary

[Dachannien]

If a search were truly "going out", there would be some evidence of this besides some blog post with no apparent connection to the lawyers.

Re:Bad summary

[Anonymous Coward]

So your lack of discovery is proof that there is none?
So you believe that nothing exists if you haven't seen evidence of it?

Don't go into a scientific field!

What if the blog post and subsequent press (slashdot, twitter, journals, etc) caused more than a few dozen emails to be sent to the lawyer, with students coming forward? You have seen none of that. Then would you believe it? Do you think the lawyer owes it to you to show you those?

He doesn't. Please don't show your ignorance by continuing to argue about something that you don't know about.

Do Not Plagiarise Thy Self

[Nom du Keyboard]

It's when you're accused of plagiarism of your own previous writings that this gets absurd. Do you not have the right to reuse and improve upon your own writings?

I would never let a service like this have any of my original work if I could possibly avoid it. Why isn't there some provision that you can check this paper against others, but you CANNOT add it to your database? It is outright theft otherwise.

Re:Do Not Plagiarise Thy Self

[TheRaven64]

Do you not have the right to reuse and improve upon your own writings?

Depends, but one of the requirements of my degree was that coursework could not have been submitted as coursework for any other qualification previously. So, no, plagarising your own work, if it had already been submitted as coursework for another module or another qualification, would have been the grounds for getting no marks.

Easy way to make most paper cheating go away

[lena_10326]

Make the students write the paper in class and show intermediary work. Only 2-4 full classes need to be sacrificed for it.

1. Student hands in topic writeup
2. Student hands in research photocopies and an outline
3. Class 1 (or 1 & 2): Student writes 1st draft in class.
4. Class 2 (or 3 & 4): Student revises and produces 2nd draft in class.
5. Student hands in final draft.

Each piece of intermediate work is mandatory and averaged into the paper's overall grade. If they miss the writing class, they could do it at the writing workshop and get a validation slip.

Re:Easy way to make most paper cheating go away

[selven]

Wait, you're advocating wasting a classroom and hours of a teacher's time for something that could, and should, be done at home, just to mitigate cheating?

Re:Easy way to make most paper cheating go away

[lena_10326]

How is it wasting time when the point is to learn?

Re:Easy way to make most paper cheating go away

[rantingkitten]

Except that not everyone can work well that way. I loathed writing in class for many reasons.

First, I find it extremely difficult to write with a pen and paper. It's cumbersome to me, and my handwriting isn't all that great. It'd difficult to edit, especially if I decide this paragraph would be better suited to the first page instead of the third. I realise many campuses have computers and laptops available to students but most do not.

Second, creativity, which is required even for writing about a mundane topic if one wishes to have a decent paper, cannot simply be turned on and off at will. Sitting at an uncomfortable desk in a harshly-lit classroom surrounded by jerkwads does nothing to foster my ability to produce meaningful writing. I'll handle it much better at the location and time of my choosing.

Then there's always the loud-mouthed idiots who feel the need to talk during the in-class writing process, usually to ask a question, and then there's some back-and-forth between the instructor and the student. I absolutely cannot abide listening to people speak while I am trying to write. Maybe it's just me, and some quirk of the way my brain is wired, but hearing someone speak in a language I understand completely derails anything I was trying to write.

Finally, not everyone writes with drafts and revisions. When I'm trying to write something, I almost never go back and revise it -- I may make edits as I'm writing, but by and large, the final product will be the one that was completed the first time. Instructors who forced us to turn in "first drafts" and "rough drafts" along with our final papers were always maddening to me, though my solution was to simply write the paper, then go back and mess it up a few times and call those my earlier revisions. No one was ever the wiser and my papers turned out fine. Why force students to go through such a tedious process that is unnecessary for many of them?

Re:Easy way to make most paper cheating go away

[lena_10326]

It's understandable different people have different work habits but which is the worst solution? Sending off your paper to a validation service which archives without your consent or doing the work in a monitored environment such as a classroom? Out of curiosity. How do (or will) you handle writing lengthy documents at work in cubicle-land? Many times, workplace environments are noisy and you'll find yourself frequently interrupted by emails, phone calls, and co-workers with questions and whatnot.

Re:Easy way to make most paper cheating go away

[rantingkitten]

Out of curiosity. How do (or will) you handle writing lengthy documents at work in cubicle-land? Many times, workplace environments are noisy and you'll find yourself frequently interrupted by emails, phone calls, and co-workers with questions and whatnot.

So glad you asked. When I started this job, it was a very small company, and the noise from my coworkers drove me nuts. So, I moved into the kitchen. Dead serious. Got a chair and a coffee table for my feet, and sat there with my laptop on my lap, and a phone next to me on a little side table. Sounds weird because people would always be shuffling in and out of the kitchen, but I preferred their brief sixty-second interruptions to a nonstop stream of noise from the actual office area. Plus it meant that I was highly visible to everyone in the company regardless of department or position, so I became sort of the gatekeeper for all secrets, gossip, and suchlike.

After a while the company grew and our department got shuffled to another building. They found me a corner area far away from everyone, where I could blast my music the whole time and drown out any ambient noise. (I can background oontz-oontz, even if there are vocals. Don't ask me how that works. If I'm streaming the music and the DJ starts babbling, though, it's game over for me.)

Then we moved again. The new building had two floors -- one for sales and marketing, the second floor for support, dev, and executives.. and a third, windowless, finished top floor that nobody wanted. So they hauled a desk up there and that was my office. It was glorious especially with the candle sconces I put up. Sit up there by myself all day, and not have to listen to other idiots chattering.

Unfortuantely, we moved YET AGAIN, recently, and the new place really is cubeland. They put me in a cube as far as possible from anyone, but I can still hear them if I turn off the music -- so I keep it on, and loud, all the time.

As for the coworker drop-in and such, that's never been a big issue for me. If someone is stopping by my desk, or phoning me, then they actually want to discuss something with me and I can turn my attention to that. My problem is when there is background chatter that doesn't actually require my attention, but my brain sits there processing what's being said, instead of letting me focus on the thing that DOES require my focus.

Man, do I miss my little attic area.

Anyway:

It's understandable different people have different work habits but which is the worst solution? Sending off your paper to a validation service which archives without your consent or doing the work in a monitored environment such as a classroom?

Neither one is a good solution. If you make someone like me write in the classroom, I will produce drivel that doesn't come anywhere close to what I could have done, and I am probably not alone in this. I don't see how it's fair that the quality of my work, and thus my grades, should suffer just because the instructor views us all as potential plagarists. Turnitin could be a solution if handled properly, but it isn't.

A better solution would be to stop treating everyone as though they must be cheating somehow. An instructor in a reasonably-sized classroom should be able to get a general feel for how well a given student can write, and be suspicious if a paper comes in that is markedly different from that student's tone, style, or general quality. I realise that's not realistic for all settings and class sizes, but I'm just not convinced we need a one-size-fits-all solution that hurts everybody in one way or another, just to weed out a few troublemakers.

Re:Racist crap.

[infinitelink]

I'll pass-on the lesson, the 'wisdom', passed on to me when I once wished I could re-edit a post here on /., "Slashdot is forever". There, your question=answered.

Who really owns student work.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is an interesting element that doesn't seem to have been explored. What right does the school have to Paper. If the school has the legal right to have a copy of the paper or not. Because if the school has a legal right to hold a copy of a students paper, then TurnItIn as a sub-contractor can be given the right to access a copy of the students paper.

Of course it is slightly more complex than that, but it does raise the issue of student work and school. In a university, most work done by the student during a PHD (because that is where most valuable work is done) is the property of the University.

Re:Who really owns student work.

[cashman73]

In a university, most work done by the student during a PHD (because that is where most valuable work is done) is the property of the University.

This is absolutely true. And not just for graduate students, but other contract work done for the university, such as with post-doctoral researchers, research faculty/associates, etc. As a matter of fact, it's in your contract and/or university guidelines that even your laboratory notebook is the property of the University. They'll usually let you make a copy of your own notes, but the original notebook itself stays with your department or your PI. And of course, IANAL, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sort of legal precedent to these rules.

Even when you publish in a peer-reviewed journal, which most of the time, is a co-authored work anyway, you agree to sign away most copyright to the publisher as well. You're free to make copies of your own papers and distribute them to potential employers and others that may be interested (think distribute in person, hand them the paper directly), though technically you're not allowed to post the PDF of these papers to your own website (though most college professors don't care about this, and do it anyway).

So basically, these students -- sorry, "precious little snowflakes" -- are essentially asking to be treated differently from all the grad students, post-docs, researchers, and faculty out there, and want full copyright and ownership of their term papers that they hand in for class. Why? I am not sure? With the exception of the exceptionally rare student that goes on to become the next Shakespeare, Orwell, or J.K. Rowling, nobody's going to give a rat's ass about ever looking at their term paper again, so claiming copyright on them is essentially pointless. The school's know the sad truth that their papers will eventually become forgotten, but still have a bona fide interest in trying to combat the increasingly growing problem of plagiarism. They're not collecting these papers and selling them on the market (which would be stupid since there's basically no value anyway).

What this whole episode here does tell me, however, is that the copyright system in this nation (and the world) is essentially broken, and a disgrace, and a better solution is necessary.

Re:Who really owns student work.

[McLuhanesque]

It all depends on where you are, and what school you attend. I am completing a PhD in Canada at one of Canada's Tier 1 universities. I own the copyright to all my work, my notes, my essays, my papers (except those that have been published by a major journal), my blog posts, and my dissertation. And yes, I am funded by the university and a provincial agency.

To get my degree, I grant the university (and the National Library) a non-exclusive license to reproduce my thesis in their respective databases, but I hold the copyright. It even says so on the cover page. In fact, at my university, we even have the option to license it under Creative Commons (which I intend to do when/if I'm done).

Re:Who really owns student work.

[cashman73]

I think what's evident is that the actual policies clearly vary by institution here, as well as by the difference in laws between the US and Canada. Granted, it says on my dissertation that it's copyright to myself as well, and I'm pretty much free to do what I want with it as long as a went into the library. Many US universities also require the student to bear the cost of publishing as well (even going as far to say that they can't use the departmental copier).

When I was referring to your laboratory notebook, the fact that individual PIs hang on to that after their students graduate is not so much for copyright, but for going back and being able to answer questions the might arise once your work is published, since your major advisor will be the corresponding author on your work. For example, if another researcher raises questions on work you did 5-10 years after you graduate, they'll contact your advisor, who may want to review the original notes to provide the best answer. So there is significant value to hanging on to these lab notebooks -- not for money or selling it, but for scientific reasons.

Other stuff you do, like your class notes, class essays, or blog posts (plus, if your blog is on the university's servers, they'll probably delete it after a certain period of time -- again, depending on the institution), is of little value to the university (or anyone else, but you, I suppose), so no one's really going to care whether you claim copyright on it or not. Although I suppose in today's legally-obsessed culture, with everyone screaming copyright infringement and people trying to file frivolous lawsuits to make a fast buck, I can't blame students for trying to copyright such petty things,...

Re:Who really owns student work.

[Chapter80]

So basically, these students -- sorry, "precious little snowflakes" -- are essentially asking to be treated differently from all the grad students, post-docs, researchers, and faculty out there, and want full copyright and ownership of their term papers that they hand in for class. Why? I am not sure?

These are high school students at public schools. FERPA regulations require that the schools keep their academic records confidential, including any contractors that the school uses.

With the exception of the exceptionally rare student that goes on to become the next Shakespeare, Orwell, or J.K. Rowling, nobody's going to give a rat's ass about ever looking at their term paper again, so claiming copyright on them is essentially pointless.

Add to your list ANY "person of interest". Movie stars, TV commentators, congressmen, city council, high school teachers, suspects in crimes, corporate executives, priests and ministers, newspaper columnists. If I could dig up Bill O'Reilly's high school papers, or my English Teacher's high school papers, I think that would be interesting. I rest easy, knowing that I could burn mine at the end of the year, and they can't haunt me for life. Especially the assignment to "Defend Communism".

They're not collecting these papers and selling them on the market

Actually, the terms that the student agree to specifically permit TurnItIn to do just that. Have you read them? I have.

"With regard to papers submitted to the Site, You hereby grant iParadigms a non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, world-wide, irrevocable license to reproduce, transmit, display, disclose, archive and otherwise use in connection with its Services any paper You submit to the Site..."

In other words, "if you become famous, we can sell your paper to the highest bidder."

So unless you can successfully defend that no person that is in high school right now will ever become famous, your argument doesn't hold up.

schools will just change their agreements

[jipn4]

You effectively have an agreement with your school or university under which you study there. If that agreement doesn't explicitly allow the use of plagiarism detection services right now, it will in the future. Your choice will be to either agree to it or walk away.

No problems really...

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said you had to be the one to author the paper? Why not just submit the past 100 issues of Nature? I doubt any company this lax with their security really has an effective upload filter in place...

Do The Students Really Have Copyright?

[Gallenod]

If it can be proven that a student has plagerized someone else's work to write a paper, can they then really turn around and claim copyright on their paper? Doesn't the author they "borrowed" from really hold the copyright?

Excellent post - why EULA's are mostly bunk

[SummitCO]

Many of the draconian provisions in EULA's viewed after purchase of software would be unenforceable for similar reasons. It's simply a case of the power not being abused by the software companies so nobody has had standing or need to sue yet.

The students should have won.

[SSharon]

For anyone interested in reading an analysis of this case that actually sites precedent and contains legal arguments and not internet arguments I recommend reading the paper available at http://ssrn.com/author=1259310 If 40 pages and 150 footnotes is too much for you the cliff notes is available at http://www.iposgoode.ca/2009/06/us-circuit-court-of-appeals-rules-that-turnitins-fight-against-plagiarism-does-not-violate/ If clicking on links and reading articles is too much for you (and knowing this crowd this might apply to many of you) the bottom line is that the turnitin service is not a fair use (in my opinion). The contract the students signed should be unenforceable, treating students as guilty from the first day of class is wrong, and the potential for massive privacy violations is unavoidable.