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Feds At DefCon Alarmed After RFIDs Scanned

FourthAge writes "Federal agents at the Defcon 17 conference were shocked to discover that they had been caught in the sights of an RFID reader connected to a web camera. The reader sniffed data from RFID-enabled ID cards and other documents carried by attendees in pockets and backpacks. The 'security enhancing' RFID chips are now found in passports, official documents and ID cards. 'For $30 to $50, the common, average person can put [a portable RFID-reading kit] together,' said security expert Brian Marcus, one of the people behind the RFID webcam project. 'This is why we're so adamant about making people aware this is very dangerous.'"

97 of 509 comments (clear)

  1. What do you bet... by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...the Feds try to ban the tech to read the RFIDs instead of urging credit card manufacturers/the state department to back off on putting RFID chips into everything?

    --
    To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    1. Re:What do you bet... by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's easier to outlaw gadgets than to admit you're wrong.

      That's why, thanks to recent laws, only criminals carry guns. Pretty soon only criminals will have webcameras or RFID sniffers.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    2. Re:What do you bet... by DirtyUncleRon69 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So our passports will need tinfoil hats now too?

      --
      They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    3. Re:What do you bet... by oenone.ablaze · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is a legal gray area, but a couple years back Wired suggested that hitting the passport's chip with a hammer would disable the RFID without obvious signs--a disabled RFID chip does not invalidate the passport.

    4. Re:What do you bet... by multisync · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I found this part really interesting:

      It's not known if any Feds were caught by the reader. The group that set it up never looked closely at the captured data before it was destroyed. Priest told Threat Level that one person caught by the camera resembled a Fed he knew, but he couldn't positively identify him.

      "But it was enough for me to be concerned," he said. "There were people here who were not supposed to be identified for what they were doing ... I was [concerned] that people who didn't want to be photographed were photographed."

      Priest asked Adam Laurie, one of the researchers behind the project, to "please do the right thing," and Laurie removed the SD card that stored the data and smashed it. Laurie, who is known as "Major Malfunction" in the hacker community, then briefed some of the Feds on the capabilities of the RFID reader and what it collected.

      Nice to see that - after they made their point - the organizers and attendees at "one of the most hostile hacker environments in the country" did the right thing and destroyed the data. I'm sure we could count on law enforcement, our employers and credit card companies to show the same moral character.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    5. Re:What do you bet... by ElSupreme · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can microwave it. The RFID antenna collects to much power and fries the circuit. Should take a second or two.

      --
      My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
    6. Re:What do you bet... by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 2, Funny

      screw moral character.
      don't you watch tv - give up the blank card keeping the real data somewhere else.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    7. Re:What do you bet... by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My New York EDL came with a foil-lined protective sleeve.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    8. Re:What do you bet... by siloko · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm sure we could count on law enforcement, our employers and credit card companies to show the same moral character.

      Ha ha very good! The sad thing is they would keep the data while telling the media they didn't, then justify keeping it when there lies are exposed, then mock outrage when it gets stolen, then bungled legislation when the peasants revolt. It's written in my tea leaves - which at least will be destroyed on MY say so!

    9. Re:What do you bet... by vintagepc · · Score: 2, Informative

      Is it possible to remove the RFID device?

      Yes... with a hammer.

      --
      Evolution - Est. 4500000000 B.C. Don't piss in the gene pool.
    10. Re:What do you bet... by Boscrossos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, they likely base their decision on the basis of lobby work done by industry experts. After all, who better to trust than an expert, right? Problem is, these experts are usually employed by the industry selling the technology, and as such, rarely go into the downsides too much. Barring counter-lobbying from another source (NGO or public initiative), it's likely the politicians really are convinced they're doing the right thing, because clearly, there are no downsides, or they'd have heard about it.

      --
      Jesus saves... the rest takes full damage.
    11. Re:What do you bet... by FreeUser · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can microwave it. The RFID antenna collects to much power and fries the circuit. Should take a second or two.

      While an inoperative RFID may not invalidate your passport, I suspect a big honking scorch mark in the middle of the thing just might.

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    12. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Blatantly true, at least in parts of the United States

      Fixed that for you. If you think you can get a carry permit in New York City/San Francisco/Chicago as a law abiding American citizen think again. The only way that happens is if you are rich and have political connections. The rest of us poor slobs don't have the right to defend ourselves if we are unlucky enough to live in a part of the country run by the anti-gun zealots.

      This will eventually change when the 2nd amendment is incorporated against the states but it doesn't change the fact that right now you effectively have no right to keep and bear arms if you live in the wrong part of the country.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    13. Re:What do you bet... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A brief trip to the microwave works better. Fewer indentations on the cover ("No officer, it doesn't look like someone's been beating this passport with a hammer, why do you ask?").

      Not quite as satisfying however.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    14. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I seem to recall that putting it in a microwave on the "defrost" setting for a minute or so had the same effect, without destroying the passport itself.

      Think again. I tried this with a RFID'ed credit card just to see what would happen and the results were rather spectacular. The RFID chip was destroyed in under a second but generated a shower of sparks that melted a large portion of the credit card and rendered it completely unusable. Of course that was the point -- I'd made the credit card company send me a card without a chip in it -- but I'm guessing you don't want to try and use a scorched and carbonized passport.......

      Finding this Slashdot article in your browser cache, and you being in possession of a disabled RFID passport might be enough probable cause to dig deeper and find more. And more.

      It would take a bit more than a disabled RFID chip to get probable cause to search your computer. That said, I wouldn't try the hammer or the microwave with my passport. I'd be surprised if there isn't a law on the books about mutilating those types of documents. It's easy enough to keep the thing in a foil pouch until you need to use it -- and if I'm not traveling out of the country my passport lives in a safe deposit box anyway.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    15. Re:What do you bet... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 3, Funny

      The only way that happens is if you are rich and have political connections.

      That's not entirely true - if you're a bodyguard of a rich (important) person, you can legally protect them too.

      --
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      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    16. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sad but true. My favorite is the Hollywood types that rant about the evils of firearm ownership while being protected by armed bodyguards. Fucking hypocrites.

      All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    17. Re:What do you bet... by oenone.ablaze · · Score: 3, Informative

      Trust this insofar as you trust Wired. They say that the microwave will leave scorch marks, so this is NOT recommended. I suppose blunt force trauma is virtually undetectable or at least explainable by wear and tear throughout the course of your travels.

    18. Re:What do you bet... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "A brief trip to the microwave works better. Fewer indentations on the cover ("No officer, it doesn't look like someone's been beating this passport with a hammer, why do you ask?")."

      The passport is still valid even if the RFID is disabled, right?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    19. Re:What do you bet... by jollespm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have flown in and out of the US a couple times, and taken a car to Canada, and no TSA/border patrol agent has used an RFID scanner on my passport that I was aware of. I even went so far as to ask at the airport why they were using the optical scanner instead of the RFID and the guy said it was faster and easier to use the traditional optical scanners. Now they may scan the RFID anyway, and do the optical scan to see if they match, but considering most non-US passports don't have RFID I'm not sure it's going to make any difference if it is deactivated or not.

    20. Re:What do you bet... by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No. You are wrong. It is fairly easy to get a license to purchase a shotgun that you leave at home in most places in America, yes, but in many places it is almost impossible to get a license to actually have the weapon with you. My friend's dad works in and out of Boston in some pretty rough neighborhoods, and after witnessing a crime and calling the police he had several DOCUMENTED threats made against his life (ie coming out to see WE ARE GOING TO F*CKING KILL YOU HONKY spraypainted on the side of his truck). Even with this, he was not able to obtain a concealed carry permit. His criminal record is 100% clean, and he even knew some guys high up in the force that could pull some strings, but eventually the reason he got was that they didn't see that he needed to carry a gun. Thankfully, he never ended up getting murdered, but don't just stand there and proclaim that it's not true that only criminals have guns, you just make yourself look like a fool.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    21. Re:What do you bet... by weszz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Um no... the gun totin trigger happy people aren't the problem...

      do you think criminals CARE if they are breaking the law? Do you think having a nationwide concealed carry law would make all gang members and others suddenly stop carrying until they got a permit?

      If you do you are sadly mistaken... the ones who are regulated and don't carry are the law abiding people... Typically not the people you need to be worrying about. Typically.

    22. Re:What do you bet... by weszz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The criminals are the ones who will carry WITHOUT the permit...

      Your friend's dad was obviously trying to follow the law by not carrying, and the guys upset with him have no concern about the law... which goes back to the whole idea that banning these readers makes no sense, because if a criminal is trying to steal your ID, they know that is already illegal, so why not just throw an illegal reader and an illegal gun on top of it?

    23. Re:What do you bet... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      do you think criminals CARE if they are breaking the law?

      Depends on the criminal. Statistics that I found with a quick Google indicate that 50-55% of violent crimes in the USA are crimes of passion (i.e. not premeditated or planned). That means that they are perpetrated by people who are not what you would typically call criminals until they actually commit the act. These people are, for most of their lives, law-abiding citizens and are unlikely to carry an illegal weapon.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    24. Re:What do you bet... by stoolpigeon · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is still valid. After returning from a long trip I went to bed and my wife did all my laundry from my trip, which included my passport and ipod nano in a shirt pocket. I was traveling again shortly after and tried to find someone who could tell me if it was still valid, but had no luck. I was going from the U.S. to Mexico and just figured I'd see how it went.

      The agent tried to scan the chip and when it didn't work, just treated it like an older passport. I've gone out of the country with it again since then and had the same result.

      I wouldn't recommend that approach, as is mentioned above, a hammer will do the job. It took me a while to dry out my passport then I had to leave it under a huge stack of books to get the pages flat again. Knowing that people keep them for 10 years makes me think that they must go through all kinds of things like that.

      The nano took longer to dry out completely but still works.

      I hope events like this (the scanning of the chips) keep getting attention so that something can be done before disabling the chip becomes synonymous with invalidating the document.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    25. Re:What do you bet... by modecx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If they weren't out there publicly trying to get our rights taken away, they wouldn't attract crazy people, therefore they wouldn't need the armed security.

      Until then keep your deadly weapons and wild west "justice" out of my community.

      So, move to LA, San Francisco, New York City, Chicago, etc. and the terrible worry about peacefully minded citizens taking legal means to protect themselves from assault, rape, robbery, etc. will never again burden you.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    26. Re:What do you bet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Crimes of passion" also happen to incorporate every non-premeditated crime, such as randomly attacking a person on the street but not having planned it is a "crime of passion". Shooting someone, but not planning to do it is counted as a "crime of passion". Lies, damn lies, statistics.

    27. Re:What do you bet... by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Funny

      Ah, nice. ESR is the perfect argument against an armed citizenry.

      Every time some 12 year old posts "IMA KIL U U FAT FCK I AMA IRANYAN NINJA U NEVAR C ME CUMING!!!!1!!" on his blog, he craps his pants, buys another .45 extension for his shrinking penis, and gets another entry in his FBI "whackjob time waster" file.

      Personally I think the entire "ESR" persona is the intartube's longest running piece of performance art, but it appears that some of his followers:

      1) Actually believe that he's real and someone to be emulated...
      2) Are armed.

      Which is quite a worrying combination.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    28. Re:What do you bet... by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If politicians are that gullible, and stupid enough to take everything said by people with vested interests at face value, then they shouldn't even have the authority to run their own life, forget the country.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    29. Re:What do you bet... by xerxesVII · · Score: 5, Funny

      I find it peculiar that they were willing to participate in criminal activity but could not bring themselves to spell the word "FUCKING".

      --
      "We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." - Douglas Adams
    30. Re:What do you bet... by Grant,thompson · · Score: 2

      I found with a quick Google indicate that 50-55% of violent crimes in the USA are crimes of passion

      Provide a link or it didn't happen.

    31. Re:What do you bet... by raddan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What does "incorporated against the states" mean?

    32. Re:What do you bet... by corbettw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're right, those bodyguards of the rich and famous don't have any connections to people who are rich and famous.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    33. Re:What do you bet... by Alinabi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, they have. Every time you hand them the passport and they place it on the desk next to their computer, they are using a RFID scanner.

      --
      "You can't allow somebody to commit the crime before you detain them." [Condoleezza Rice]
    34. Re:What do you bet... by operagost · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When you join a militia and keep your guns for that, you'll have a point.

      The government has done its best for decades to convince the people that militias are full of homicidal maniacs. And no, the National Guard is not a militia. It is a standing army under the control of the FEDERAL government-- and it has to be, because states are forbidden from having standing armies in the Constitution.

      Guns are cowardly

      Compared with... what? "Putting up your dukes," as one ignoramus once snorted on slashdot? Would you ask your 80 year-old grandma to "put up her dukes"? I bet she could handle a small pistol, though.

      And I do completely support the right to have hunting rifles.

      Thanks to the 10th Amendment, we do have the right to use hunting rifles. However, the general right to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS is EXPLICITLY mentioned in the 2nd. The "militia" part is not a condition of that.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    35. Re:What do you bet... by multisync · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's one thing to expose a security flaw, quite a different thing to exploit it. You're right, the Feds shoulda oughta known better; I'm sure the security issues with RFID are being given a closer look at several alphabet agencies as I write this.

      You seem to be advocating some sort of vigilante action on the part of the people doing the demonstration, but I think that is exactly the wrong approach if your goal is to raise public awareness. If the people doing the demonstration had dug their heals in and kept the information they harvested, the likely result would have been arrests and confiscation of the information and headlines reading "Hackers Steal Identities of Federal Agents." This would have been wrong as well, and cause for much bitching on Slashdot, but would have done exactly nothing to address the insecurity of RFID.

      By volunteering to destroy the data collected, Priest got the best of all worlds - the dangers of RFID were exposed,
      as was the ignorance of the general public to these dangers (including the people who oughta know better) and he left them with no opportunity to spin this as a story of Hackers Out Of Control.

      Sometimes it's better to go after the big fish, rather than eat your bait.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    36. Re:What do you bet... by JCSoRocks · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if you could prove to me that guns were used in even half of those cases I would still say your argument has no merit. Having a gun makes no difference in those situations. If you're so pissed off that you're going to kill someone, you're going to find a way to do it. People have been beating, stabbing, bludgeoning, drowning, choking and otherwise finding ways of killing people they dislike since the dawn of man. It's foolish and naive to believe that guns have anything to do with it.

      In fact, I'd say gun ownership does more to prevent crime than it does to encourage it. If I'm a big guy and I figure that I could throttle you pretty easily, but I know that you carry a gun, that may dissuade me from assaulting you. I'm not going to say with 100% certainty that it will - that would be hyperbole. I will, however, assert that it would change a lot of people's minds.

      --
      You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
    37. Re:What do you bet... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Informative

      When you join a militia and keep your guns for that, you'll have a point.

      Every able-bodied man between 18 and 45 is automatically in the militia.

    38. Re:What do you bet... by pelrun · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most RFID cards are completely unencrypted, and even the encrypted ones have only basic encryption implemented (it was quite spectacularly reverse engineered a couple of years ago) - there just isn't enough power available to do anything robust.

    39. Re:What do you bet... by SilasMortimer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, if we're to make no distinctions, the term "arms" no longer refers to just guns. There's also pipe bombs, dirty bombs, TNT, nuclear bombs, tanks (why not?), bazookas, rocket launchers, BFG 9000s (pardon), swords, switchblades, Molotov cocktails, etc.

      I suppose I should expect to hear something like, "that's different!" Okay, why? What "condition" precludes them?

      --
      Omnes tuae crepidines sunt nobis sunt. Ascendo tuum!
    40. Re:What do you bet... by Dare+nMc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      - Just, merely state that as a Danish citizen I'm happy with the strict gun policy and never regardless of the arguments you may bring up going to find nonrestrictive gun policies sane.

      And I am even happier to live in a part of the USA where they don't have to keep guns away from people to keep them from killing each other. I feel very sorry that at some point, your society reached a low point that it was no longer safe to trust fellow citizens with a otherwise useful tool, because they cant be trusted to have sufficient self control over their own actions. (I am not saying gun violence doesn't happen here, I am just saying removing guns would make a insignificant or even negative change)

      Where I live, no permit is need to purchase and or carry a gun in public, in your car, or even in 90% of stores (as long as it is not concealed, or $45 class for concealed.) The fact that I am safe with, or without a gun gives me confidence in the people around me. I agree in places where society has broke down, and people can't control themselves may need Gun control if the true causes can't be addressed first. I wouldn't advise giving out guns to people in many areas, I also don't care to live or even visit any of those places.

      But also everyone in the US are trusted with access, and many have sufficient skill at machinery/lathes/chemistry/education. With access to those, it is impossible to prevent rapid fire weapons from being brought into existence anyway. So we might as well allow those with safety mechanisms be sold, so that those without don't need to be.

      Even in the US it is stupid to kill someone with a gun, they leave to much of a trace, and are so accurate it is very difficult to claim it as anything but intent. It is much smarter to use something like a vehicle/poison/trap since they can then claim it was purely a accident (if caught), and less evidence (distinctive sounds/markings/powders) anyway. By allowing a simple solution, it is easier to catch/get rid of those criminals lazy/crazy enough that they used a gun anyway.

    41. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Funny

      Provide a link or it didn't happen.

      Wait ten minutes and then check Wikipedia ;)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    42. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      but I know that you carry a gun, that may dissuade me from assaulting you. I'm not going to say with 100% certainty that it will - that would be hyperbole. I will, however, assert that it would change a lot of people's minds.

      If the knowledge that I have the gun doesn't dissuade you then the 230 grain .45 caliber slugs entering your body at 800 feet per second probably will.

      "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal." A friend of mine was nearly raped a several years ago. The attempted rapist had more than 12 inches and 150 pounds on her. She stood absolutely no chance at overpowering him or successfully running away. So why was it an attempted rape and not an actual rape? She had a .38 special with her.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    43. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's the process by which the rights guaranteed to us by the Federal Constitution are held to also apply to the state. The original theory behind the Constitution was that it only applied to the actions of the Federal Government and thus a state was free to establish a state religion, infringe on your freedom of speech/right to keep and bear arms, etc.

      This was the accepted view until the passage of the 14th amendment, part of which reads, "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States" After the 14th amendment passed SCOTUS started holding that various parts of the Bill of Rights (the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments in particular) applied to the states as well. They haven't yet held that the 2nd amendment applies but it's only a matter of time before they do -- a plain reading of the 14th and 2nd amendments doesn't leave much wiggle room for the states to infringe on your right to keep and bear arms.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    44. Re:What do you bet... by Ares · · Score: 4, Informative

      for those who will demand the citation

      10 usc 311

      (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

      (b) The classes of the militia are--

      (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

      (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
       

      it should be noted that well-regulated != organized

    45. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Informative

      if you sign up for selective service (which you are required to...)

      Bzzt, no selective service registration is required. From Title 10, Section 311 of the US Code:

      The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    46. Re:What do you bet... by arahel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I was at DefCon17. While MM might have done the right thing, there were plenty of other RFID readers around there that were not as well marked. I bought a DIFRWear passport wallet... http://www.difrwear.com/

    47. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When you join a militia and keep your guns for that, you'll have a point.

      You haven't been paying attention to recent Supreme Court precedent have you? That argument doesn't fly any longer. You'll have to find another one.

      but putting up with danger from people willing to surrender their rights for the illusion of safety may just be part of the price we pay for freedom

      Fixed that for you :)

      True, there are other countries that provide freedom (sometimes beyond what's offered here in the US) without the epidemic of gun violence we face because guns

      We do have a violence problem in this country. Why are you trying to link it to firearms? Shouldn't the fact that some criminal scumbag is willing to use deadly force upon another human being be more indicative of a problem with him and not with the tool he is using for his dastardly deed? I don't think you make a connection between violence and firearm ownership. There are countries that virtually outlaw civilian firearm ownership that have much higher violent crime rates than the US does. Likewise, there are also countries that have comparatively lax firearm ownership laws that have much less violence than we do.

      You can see the same trend replicated right here in the states too. Chicago has strict gun laws and lots of violent crime. Vermont has few gun laws (any non-felon can buy a handgun and carry it openly or concealed without needing a permit) and almost no gun violence. Doesn't that suggest to you that there are other factors driving criminal violence than the availability of firearms?

      And I do completely support the right to have hunting rifles.

      You do realize that hunting rifles are usually much more powerful than the "assault rifles" that get the gun control crowd all worked up, right? Most common hunting calibers will go through police body armor like a hot knife through butter. Most handgun rounds are easily stopped by the same body armor. Perhaps we need to outlaw hunting rifles and give everybody a handgun?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    48. Re:What do you bet... by rezalas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually having greater punishment through law tends to make the more violent crimes even more violent. If a man is going to do 25 years for assault with a deadly weapon (gun, knife, kebob) he is more likely to just murder you and save himself a witness.

    49. Re:What do you bet... by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am so reminded of a line from The Chronicle along the lines of "How very twentieth century of you", as the character whips out a taser and stuns the miscreant.

      There are nonlethal means of defending one's self, these days. While most may only work at arm's reach, that's also the range you're most likely to be at, in a situation you'd want to use a gun defensively. ... and have any realistic chance of it being effective, anyway.

      If they weren't out there publicly trying to get our rights taken away, they wouldn't attract crazy people, therefore they wouldn't need the armed security.

      Y'know, I wouldn't take that bet. Crazy people are considered crazy in no small part because they use skewed logic, or no logic at all. And "taking away our rights" doesn't really top the agenda of people who need bodyguards. Nor, I expect, the rationale for most assaults upon people who feel a need for bodyguards.

    50. Re:What do you bet... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2, Informative

      Professional soldiers who have trained extensively with firearms tend to average a couple thousand rounds per kill.

      That's because of two things: suppressive fire, which just keeps the target's head down, and training, which burns through tons of ammo without killing anyone. Snipers, who have trained extensively in accuracy against designated targets, average about 1.3 rounds per kill.

      Look at an example of a worst case scenario such as the Columbine killings, where two heavily armed kids were in a target-dense environment with no serious concern over defense and yet "only" killed 12 and wounded 24

      Harris and Kleibold weren't planning to shoot everyone - guns were for mop up. Their original plan was to blow the place up with propane bombs and shoot the survivors. For an example of how that might play out, check the 'bath school disaster'.

      reality has shown time and again that guns are scarier than they are dangerous when put into actual practice.

      Sure, when dealing with multiple targets. If you're the only target, things are a whole lot different.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    51. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If guns are more prevalent, then chances are that you're more likely to have one yourself, so if you fly off the handle, you can use your own in the committing of the crime.

      This is such a tired old argument that I'm growing weary of dispelling it. Repeat after me: Normal human beings do not "fly off the handle" and murder other human beings. If they did then we'd also have to outlaw cars (hint: it's much easier to kill someone by running them over than by shooting them), kitchen knives, etc.

      We've all been angry at one point in our lifetimes or another. How many of us have allowed the situation to escalate to physical violence? Of those that do how many have allowed it to escalate further to deadly physical violence? Most people are capable of walking away without throwing punches. Most of the ones who aren't are capable of throwing a punch without picking up a rock/knife/gun. The percentage of people who "fly off the handle" and resort to murder is so exceedingly small that I'd worry more about being struck by lightning than running across someone who is going to murder me because I cut him off in traffic.

      Have you ever taken a self-defense class? Ever talked to anybody that has a concealed carry permit? Most self-defense classes spend at least as much time on deescalation techniques as they do on fighting techniques. Most concealed carry holders would tell you that having that firearm on their waist makes them less likely to pick fights over trivial bullshit.

      I know it's changed my attitude and outlook on life. I don't flip people off on the roadways when they cut me off/tailgate me any longer -- it's simply not worth provoking a situation that may escalate to violence. As far as I'm concerned everybody should carry a firearm. The vast majority of us would be a lot more polite towards each other and the small minority of psychopaths would have to face the fact that their next victim is going to have the ability to fight back.

      And yes, while people did bad things before there were guns, it's easier to use a gun than be skilled with a knife or have the brute strength to use a club (e.g. baseball bad, tire iron, etc.)

      No, actually it's not "easier" to use a gun to take a human life than any other instrument. Have you ever fired a gun? Ever fired one under a stressful situation when the adrenaline is pumping? Ever fired one at someone who is trying to take it away from you and/or run away? Here's one hint: If your normal group is 2" across when standing at the range shooting at paper targets it's going to be 12" across when the adrenaline is pumping and you are fighting for your life.

      Here's another hint: A normal human being does not have the capacity to point a gun at another and pull the trigger unless his or her life is in mortal danger. The small minority of people that can commit murder are so fucked up in the head that I doubt they'd have any issue with using a knife, baseball bat or even their bare hands to do the job instead.

      But the Philippines and Poland (and others after them) have shown you can win independence without the necessity of resorting to violence (force?).

      How amazingly naive you are. If it wasn't for violence the Polish people wouldn't even exist today. Go read about Generalplan Ost and tell me how you can defeat such evil without resorting to violence.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    52. Re:What do you bet... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, if you are in a need of a pipe bomb, you can always stick together a pipe and a fork bomb (using Perl, of course).

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    53. Re:What do you bet... by modecx · · Score: 2, Informative

      "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" isn't in there because they wanted to practice their penmanship. So we have to determine why it's there. You could say that they were explaining why they included this right--which is certainly possible-- but that would make it the only one I can think of that they felt the need to justify. The only other possibility I can see is that it was intended to place some sort of restriction on the second part. But any limitation would be to be a direct contradiction of "shall not be infringed". Basically, it's a lesson about the importance of good writing skills.

      1) It's an introductory phrase/clause, and a commonly used tool in English. There are many similar examples in the Constitution and bill of rights. We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union...

      2) Many of the framers were not fond of large standing armies (for obvious reasons to them), and were non-trusting of a federal government that would raise them. Because of this, they believed the whole of the people should be the militia, and indeed a later amendment said (paraphrasing) the militia of the United States consists of all able bodied males age 17-45 who are citizens, or have made a declaration of intention to become a citizen. In other words, if you're healthy and in the bracket, and are a citizen, you're a militiaman.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    54. Re:What do you bet... by torkus · · Score: 2

      Don't bring a sniper rifle to a knife fight, eh? Both examples are significantly different than a bar-fight-gone-wrong. However, pray-and-spray is much closer to how it would go in a bar fight than prepared sniper vs. unaware target.

      Guns are plenty scary against one or many targets. But give your average joe who doesn't handle guns a 9mm and ask him to hit a running/dodging person at 50ft on one clip? Fat chance. A trained soldier or cop? Different story but it's still no where near one-shot, one-kill. Why don't cops start shooting at fleeing suspects 99% of the time? Because they're more likely to hit everything else BUT the suspect.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    55. Re:What do you bet... by Fluffeh · · Score: 2
      Firstly, wow. Wow. Wow! I am rarely ceased to be amazed.

      I agree in places where society has broke down, and people can't control themselves may need Gun control if the true causes can't be addressed first.

      Don't you think society has broken down when so many people feel the need to carry guns?

      Even in the US it is stupid to kill someone with a gun, they leave to much of a trace, and are so accurate it is very difficult to claim it as anything but intent.

      Why on earth would you be thinking about ways to kill someone? Surely you can discuss differences through speaking to one another? Work out differences without resorting to violence?

      By allowing a simple solution, it is easier to catch/get rid of those criminals lazy/crazy enough that they used a gun anyway.

      So now, you are advocating allowing loads of people to carry guns so that it's easier to catch the lazy and stupid criminals?

      I am even happier to live in a part of the USA where they don't have to keep guns away from people to keep them from killing each other

      Probably not the way you meant to word that. Paraphrasing it reads: Luckily you live in a place where the government doesn't need to regulate guns and even if they did, people would still kill one another.

      Nice area, is there any good property about?

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    56. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why don't cops start shooting at fleeing suspects 99% of the time? Because they're more likely to hit everything else BUT the suspect.

      Actually it's because the same rules apply to them as apply to the rest of us. You aren't allowed to use deadly force unless it's necessary to save your life or the life of another. A fleeing criminal is obviously not moments away from the murdering the officer, so shooting him wouldn't be justifiable.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    57. Re:What do you bet... by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I believe in the 2nd amendment

      Make the gun exam hard. Make it so difficult only a few people in a thousand can pass. And make it so that only those people would be allowed to carry guns, law enforcement, military, or otherwise.

      Hmm, let's see here. You believe in the amendment that says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed yet you want to set up a system that would only allow 1% or 2% of the population to exercise that right? I hope you can see how those two statements are at odds with one another.

      BTW, if you made the test that hard the vast majority of law enforcement would flunk it.......

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    58. Re:What do you bet... by aminorex · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually it's because the same rules apply to them as apply to the rest of us.

      Ha ha ha ha. Very funny.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  2. duh? by Kartoffel · · Score: 4, Informative

    Why would they be surprised? This has been common knowledge for years.

    If you have to carry an RFID'ed object that contains sensitive information, keep it shielded at all times or destroy it.

    1. Re:duh? by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is completely beyond my comprehension that the Feds are surprised by this. I just assumed that they were doing this on purpose to achieve some grander goal. It's either that, or they are retarded. In fact, there are many things that are happening now which makes me think: "Are they doing this on purpose? Or are they retarded?"

      They're faithfully participating in a system which is intentionally insane. It's not that hard to understand...

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    2. Re:duh? by wereHamster · · Score: 2, Funny

      In fact, there are many things that are happening now which makes me think: "Are they doing this on purpose? Or are they retarded?"

      Definitely retarded (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor).

    3. Re:duh? by hacker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "These "Feds", after all, are individuals; just regular people. These are not high-tech über-spies, but pencil-pushing bureaucrats."

      "pencil-pushing bureaucrats" do not belong in attendance at DefCon, period.

      It is precisely these kind of people (those who use, but completely lack the understanding of the underlying technology), that cause the proliferation of malware, spam and other methodologies of subterfuge.

      Send your best people to DefCon, and even they won't be good enough, but if you send pencil-pushing bureaucrats, you deserve to be scanned and have your personal information made public.

      Hrmph!

    4. Re:duh? by JosKarith · · Score: 2, Funny

      They're faithfully participating in a system which is institutionally insane

      There, fixed that for ya.

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
  3. wait a minute by DragonTHC · · Score: 2, Informative

    They're attending a security convention with id cards that can be read from their pockets.

    It's a good thing they didn't have rfid credit cards.

    If it can be done, it will be done.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
  4. Re:bar-codes by ari_j · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People can't surreptitiously read personal identifying information from a bar code that's in your pocket.

  5. Cops by Jaysyn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So these sloppy mofos are the ones that are supposed to be "protecting" us? Laughable.

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
  6. Surprising? by Noam.of.Doom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How could they be surprised by this? Were they not aware of the demographic group that attends Defcon? They probably just forgot to wear their tin-foil hats

    --
    It is the universe that makes fun of us all.
  7. Re:bar-codes by multisync · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It doesn't really make sense to say RFID is "very dangerous" unless you have that same fear of bar-codes.

    There is no bar code on my passport, credit card or driver's license. Even if there was, it's unlikely that person sitting at the next table with a portable bar code reader could read the bar code off my Visa card while it's in my wallet.

    --
    I don't care why you're posting AC
  8. Misleading post text... by sifi · · Score: 5, Informative

    Federal agents at the Defcon 17 conference were shocked to discover that they had been caught in the sights of an RFID reader connected to a web camera...

    erm... not quite what the Wired Article says:

    But the device, which had a read range of 2 to 3 feet, caught only five people carrying RFID cards before Feds attending the conference got wind of the project and were concerned they might have been scanned

    Still I suppose the Feds have probably hacked into the Wired Article and fixed that one...

    --
    Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
  9. Re:bar-codes by Kartoffel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Right, but they sure can read whatever your RFID has to say. The problem is twofold:

    1) Ignorant implementers put sensitive data on RFID's in plaintext.
    2) Users are unaware of what data is actually *in* their RFID items.

    RFID tags are dumb, low powered, even passive devices. If you can't afford active RFID's with public key encryption, don't put sensitive data on the damn things!

  10. The data was destroyed by doug141 · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Priest asked Adam Laurie, one of the researchers behind the project, to "please do the right thing," and Laurie removed the SD card that stored the data and smashed it. Laurie, who is known as "Major Malfunction" in the hacker community, then briefed some of the Feds on the capabilities of the RFID reader and what it collected."

    1. Re:The data was destroyed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      The Feds are later seen picking up the pieces of the smashed SD card for 'forensic analysis'.

  11. If they have done nothing wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...they have nothing to fear. Let's see how they like that argument used against _them_!

  12. Silly Feds by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They should've used the foil protective sleeve provided with the document in question and reccommended by the organization who provided the document.

    I don't know about the new passports, but RFID-enabled New York State Enhanced Driver Licenses come with a foil sleeve and a reccommendation to keep the license in the protective sleeve when not in use.

    That's right - the government is providing tinfoil hats for your RFIDs already.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    1. Re:Silly Feds by feldicus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So they give you something that they want to read wirelessly, then give you something to keep it from being read wirelessly? Ah, government thought in action.

    2. Re:Silly Feds by aynoknman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't know about the new passports, but RFID-enabled New York State Enhanced Driver Licenses come with a foil sleeve and a recommendation to keep the license in the protective sleeve when not in use.

      That's right - the government is providing tinfoil hats for your RFIDs already.

      As asinine as possible. The advantage of RFID is convenience. Let's use it and then make it less convenient to use.

      General lesson: Convenient or secure. That's an XOR.

      --
      We need a "+1 -- nice sig" moderation.
  13. Missing the point. by BlueKitties · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I was charged with writing POS software where I work. After looking into using scanners, I came across RFID. As it turns out, instead of needing to scan your crap, you can just have a magic wand magically take inventory for you. In fact, after looking into it, I realized I could rig sensors in our storage room to automatically re-take inventory periodically.

    I'm sure some people are pushing for RFID for the wrong reasons, but I'm all for it as a replacement for barcodes as far as keeping stock goes. Imagine going to Walmart, and your shopping buggy automatically tells the clerk how much money you owe! Well, that might be a ways off, but it's possible.

    I think RFID is an awesome tech, it just has a risk for being abused. Just like barcodes are awesome, but we don't want them on our forehead (unless we're playing shadow run, then it's 'cool.)

    --
    "Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
    1. Re:Missing the point. by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      RFID tracking inventory/rail cars/etc. = OK
      RFID tracking people = NOT OK

    2. Re:Missing the point. by Omegium · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I once went to "Living Tomorrow", which a house demonstrating possible future technology in the Netherlands. They had a washing machine which could select the washing programming based on the RFID tagged clothes you put in it, and which could warn you if you tried to put incompatible stuff in there.

      Other applications would be sending an email to your fridge to ask how much milk you have got left when you are in the supermarket, etc.

      RFID has some really cool applications, as well as some really scary ones

    3. Re:Missing the point. by Evil+Shabazz · · Score: 5, Funny

      I love acronyms. :) My mind read your first sentence as, "I was charged with writing [Piece of Shit] software where I work." "Point of Sale" is only a secondary parsing of that acronym for my language framework. ;)

      --
      Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
    4. Re:Missing the point. by warrior389 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can buy these systems now. I did the 3d tracking interface for this. Low cost phased array antenna with a really long read range. http://www.rfctrls.com/ If they had this at the conference they could have done realtime 3d tracking of everybody threre and had the cameras follow people.

    5. Re:Missing the point. by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Great, so now Walmart can simply tie my purchases to my credit card and know who I am as I walk in the door on subsequent visits, or walk in the door of any other store they share data with, as long as anything on my person has an RFID tag I wasn't able to find and destroy.

      Oh, and anyone else with an RFID scanner who can match it to my face can make the same connection, no credit card required.

      Wow, you've actually just made it sound even worse than it was.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    6. Re:Missing the point. by BlueKitties · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, I write software for EVE Online, don't you know? I'm talking about POS, as in the station.

      --
      "Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
  14. I don't wear a tinfoil hat, but ... by Charles+Dodgeson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... my passport certainly does. I got mine at ThinkGeek.

    --
    Prime numbers are exactly what Alan Greenspan says they are -S. Minsky
  15. Re:bar-codes by Teun · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It's worse, virtually any type of ID has this other code on the outside, it's purposely done in a contrasting colour so it's easy to copy and photograph and is called Alphabet.

    That's scary!

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  16. Re:bar-codes by socsoc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A mag strip is as similar to a barcode as a christmas tree is to a sequoia...

  17. Re:The Federal Agents weren't Pwnd by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's nothing particularly special on the RFID chip. A parking facility card and a passport generate the same amount of interesting information. A unique ID. Whew!

          The problem is when you have another government computer that is counting on the Unique ID to be a UNIQUE ID, and using ONLY THAT parameter (plus other info also on the card) to identify someone - congratulations, you have just stolen someone else's identity.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  18. Re:bar-codes by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What worries me is the black hat demo where their RFID detector detected US passports within range of a garbage can and detonated an explosive in said garbage can. No barcode/magstrip can be read remotely to determine your country of origin and action taken based on that.

  19. Re:The Federal Agents weren't Pwnd by andrewd18 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The point wasn't to "pwn" the Federal Agents. It was to alert them to the fact that this technology exists, that it's cheap, and that it's easy. From TFA:

    Paget announced during his DefCon talk that his security consulting company, H4rdw4re, will be releasing a $50 kit at the end of August that will make reading 125-kHz RFID chips â" the kind embedded in employee access cards â" trivial. It will include open source software for reading, storing and re-transmitting card data and will also include a software tool to decode the RFID encryption used in car keys for Toyota, BMW and Lexus models. This would allow an attacker to scan an unsuspecting car-ownerâ(TM)s key, decrypt the data and open the car. He told Threat Level theyâ(TM)re aiming to achieve a reading range of 12 to 18 inches with the kit.

    Just wait until someone creates a small RFID reader and hooks it up to an iPhone in their pocket (a combo that would be virtually undetectable) and starts walking through the subway collecting info. We can already pick up the credit card owner's name, credit card number, expiration date, etc. right off of the RFID tags present in AMEX cards.

  20. Re:bar-codes by Chelloveck · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Everyone knows it is utterly stupid to rely on a barcode as an access code for a company, build, or secured facility.

    Not everyone. A couple years ago I worked at a place that used barcoded cards as entrance badges. Swipe the card through the scanner and you're in. It looked like a mag stripe -- the barcode was printed black-on-black, with inks that reflected differently in the infrared. But it was just a 1-D barcode. And yes, it was trivial to use an ordinary flatbed scanner and crank up the contrast in Photoshop to view the barcode. Print it out on a laser printer and the copy would work just as well as the original.

    Granted, this was at a place that made barcode printers, including badge printers, and it was a matter of eating our own dog food. But although we made the printers, the overall badge-scanning system was made by an outside vendor and we weren't their only customer. So obviously someone could be convinced it was a good idea.

    And actually it's not much worse than an ordinary metal key. If you have physical access to an ordinary key you can photocopy it, and create a workable duplicate from the photocopy. It just takes equipment not normally found in every office and public library in the country.

    --
    Chelloveck
    I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
  21. The Billon dollar solution is only $20. by geekmux · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Um, hello? They were selling nice (and very effective) RFID blocking wallets and passport holders there for $20. If you're flying Feds halfway across the country to attend DEFCON, I'm pretty sure you can afford 20 fucking dollars to give yourself some peace of mind.

    Of course, some idiot in Gov will propose a 3 billion dollar project called Protect-A-Fed that will invest thousands of man-hours to devise such a device that could prevent RFID tags from being captured...and 4-billion dollars later you'll have a "new and improved" Government-issue $20 RFID wallet.

  22. Re:bar-codes by corbettw · · Score: 2, Funny

    That analogy was so bad I had to check your username!

    --
    God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  23. No brainer by j_w_d · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There are several published surveys of criminals in prison investigating what they do, how they evaluate targets, and what conditions discourage them from operating in given localities. The risk of being shot by a victim is a major factor. Apparently even criminals are capable of minimal cost-benefit analysis.

    --
    ------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
  24. details by zogger · · Score: 2, Informative

    Morton Grove Illinois banned them, Kennesaw Georgia required them (no enforcement though, just symbolic) Crime went way up in Morton Grove and dropped in Kennesaw.

    I've lived a buncha places, the area with by far the least amount of crime I have seen was Vermont, which is one of two states that have basically a pure no BS second amendment stance. It works once everyone gets used to it.

  25. You Are Wrong by ashpool7 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have a RFID passport right here.

    Here on page five:

    This passport must not be altered or mutilated in any way. Alteration could make the passport invalid, and if willful , may subject you to prosecution (Title 18, U.S. Code, Section 1543.

  26. Re:bar-codes by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes you can take a photocopy of the key and make a duplicate, but not without raising suspicions from the guys making the duplicate keys (possibly with a phone call to local or state police) or you have to have the equipment yourself and it isn't cheap. With the barcode, you just have to go to the nearest copy machine, and poof, you are in. RFIDs are not quite as easy as the barcode in that sense, but it doesn't cost more then a couple Benjamins to do it.

    Again, RFID is a great technology for inventory, NOT access control or data storage! It was designed to be the update to barcodes for stores and warehouses to allow computer systems to keep track of the products, maybe include how old they are as well for things that have sell-by dates. Basically to better, more easily manage a warehouse full of stuff without needing an army of people running around with barcode scanners, scanning everything all the time...But it was not designed with security in mind, which is why all these companies and policies that are being pushed to use it in places which have security concerns should get smacks on the side of the head until they realise that this is NOT the product to do it with.

    --
    We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"