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Open Textbooks Win Over Publishers In CA

Unequivocal writes "Recently California's Governor announced a free digital textbook competition. The results of that competition were announced today. Many traditional publishers submitted textbooks in this digital textbook competition in CA as well as open publishers. An upstart nonprofit organization named CK-12 contributed a number of textbooks (all free and open source material). 'Of the 16 free digital textbooks for high school math and science reviewed, ten meet at least 90 percent of California's standards. Four meet 100 percent of standards.' Three of those recognized as 100% aligned to California standards were from CK-12 and one from H. Jerome Keisler. None of the publisher's submissions were so recognized. CK-12 has a very small staff, so this is a great proof of the power of open textbooks and open educational resources."

57 of 216 comments (clear)

  1. Common Sense by dintech · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Thankfully common sense has prevailed. This is one monopoly that the world should be glad to see the back of.

    1. Re:Common Sense by TaggartAleslayer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No kidding. What's the difference between the 10th edition you could use last year and the 11th edition you have to use this year? About $100 and a few rearranged chapters.

    2. Re:Common Sense by just_another_sean · · Score: 4, Funny

      No way, there are so many changes to Roman History all the time it definitely takes a full time publishing staff to keep up.

      --
      Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
    3. Re:Common Sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Don't you see how un-American this is? Your socialist "open" information is destroying yet another wholesome American industry. I bet we can blame Obama.

    4. Re:Common Sense by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I usually buy my textbooks used through Amazon or Half.com or eBay but recently moved out of state and found the textbooks listed on my distance education course confusing -- it appeared to be some kind of bundle of books but didn't list the individual editions. So I opted to order the bundle directly through my college's textbook store and have them mail it out to me. First, they sent me a noticed stating that because they were out of used copies of one of the textbooks in the bundle, they would have to send me a "new" copy and charge the additional cost for it. This bundle of books came out to nearly $150 -- and it turned out the "new" textbook was the 2007 edition of a book that already had a 2010 edition available. I really felt burned -- not only had they shipped me a 2007 version of a book that had had 2008, 2009, and 2010 edition available, but they charged me full price for the book -- and I've discovered that the book is often available (used) on Amazon for less than ONE DOLLAR (plus shipping; search for "Discovering Computers", the Shelly Cashman series). The textbook industry and their relationships with colleges are due to die a slow (well, okay, make it quick) painful death. I'm all for making open and/or digital textbooks acceptable for the classroom.

      --
      Harold
    5. Re:Common Sense by scorp1us · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You say that now, but wait for the Open Intelligent Design course materials come out.

      --
      Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
    6. Re:Common Sense by Mithrandir86 · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Actually, the understanding of historical concepts and trends evolves quite a bit. That is why open textbooks could be such a boon - it will allow teachers to exploit new research, rather than parroting an antediluvian consensus that have been since been altered considerably.

      No one, for example, takes Gibbon's argument on the Fall of the Roman Empire seriously anymore; similarly, no one takes the argument that Islamic cultures economically failed (in comparison with Europe) because of anti-capitalist religious precepts seriously either. Yet both were a part of serious teaching a few decades ago (the age of some textbooks).

      I remember one textbook I had as a child argued that the reason that Lowland Scots prospered in comparison with Highland Scots was due the Protestant work ethic bestowed upon them through Prebyterianism - in comparison, the Highlanders succumbed to their lethargic Catholic proclivities. Hilarious in hindsight, but slightly disturbing as real teaching.

    7. Re:Common Sense by Abreu · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you noticed, it said "math and science textbooks"

      "No way, there are so many changes to Basic Algebra all the time it definitely takes a full time publishing staff to keep up!"

      Better now?

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    8. Re:Common Sense by sacdelta · · Score: 4, Funny

      No way, there are so many changes to the laws of physics teached at high school all the time it definitely takes a full time publishing staff to keep up.

      Teached?

      You must have used the free English textbook.

      --

      Brought to you by: "Al"toids - the curiously weird mint.

    9. Re:Common Sense by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You say that now, but wait for the Open Intelligent Design course materials come out.

      It's actually kind of funny, but my experience as the author of some free physics textbooks as been almost exactly the opposite of the situation you have in mind. My books are written for use at the college level, but I have quite a few high school users as well, and the vast majority of these high schools are religious high schools, mostly Catholic schools. The reason is simply that state education bureaucracies make it impossible in most cases for public schools to adopt open-source books, so the ones who can adopt them are mostly private schools, and a lot of private schools are religious. I have one book that's written for the type of course that biology majors usually take, and I've taken tons of opportunities to work in mentions of evolution, e.g., in the chapter that discusses refraction I start off with the evolution of the eye. Doesn't seem to have bothered thes folks a bit. Of course the Catholic Church doesn't have any issues with evolution anyway.

      There have been plenty of fairly successful attempts, on the other hand, to get ID into schools through the traditional setup of public school bureaucracies, state legislatures, and textbook publishers. A lot of publishers water down the discussion of evolution in their K-12 texts in an effort to make them more salable in places like Texas.

    10. Re:Common Sense by Atzanteol · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Individual experiments pointing to issues with well-supported theories are *not* theories in and of themselves nor are they support for any other theory.

      Intelligent Design has *zero* positive evidence.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    11. Re:Common Sense by davester666 · · Score: 2, Funny

      New people keep winning wars around the world, and once that is done, they get started on re-writing history...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    12. Re:Common Sense by commodoresloat · · Score: 3, Funny

      I demand to see Julius Caesar's birth certificate!

    13. Re:Common Sense by rainmaestro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When I took Differential Equations in college (2005), I paid about $150 for my textbook (brand new edition, so no used copy to be found). Two years later, I found a copy of this textbook from 1974 at a garage sale for $1. Since I had my shiny new copy still, I bought the old one to do a comparison.

      Sure enough, other than a few small changes (slight changes to the end-of-chapter questions), probably 99% of the text was completely unchanged, other than a few typos being fixed.

      My favorite professors were the ones who said "f*** the books". My Psych 101 prof actually wrote his own book that the bookstore printed up for $25. When I took Physical Geography, my professor went a step further. He took all the Powerpoint slides, replaced key words with blanks, and took the lot to Kinkos. $20 a pop for 400 pages of Powerpoint slides instead of paying $140 for the textbook.

      Science texts are the worst. I had some expensive engineering courses ($300-ish for books), but my roommate had by far the worst I've ever seen. His O-Chem class cost him almost $800.

    14. Re:Common Sense by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Funny

      I remember one textbook I had as a child argued that the reason that Lowland Scots prospered in comparison with Highland Scots was due the Protestant work ethic bestowed upon them through Prebyterianism - in comparison, the Highlanders succumbed to their lethargic Catholic proclivities. Hilarious in hindsight, but slightly disturbing as real teaching.

      That's hilarious indeed, when according to my textbook the real reason was that there was an immortal Highlander who kept running around cutting peoples' heads off while screaming "There can be only one!" until someone finally managed to explain to him that the rule was about immortals, not Scotsmen. But by then the damage had been done in the Highlands.

      Makes a lot more sense, don't you think?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    15. Re:Common Sense by Adriax · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hah, I knew it! I'm not getting fat, the earth gravitational pull on me is increasing, making the scale show more weight every month.
      Now that I've solved that mystery I'm going to get some mcdonalds.

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
  2. Let's hope this goes well... by TaggartAleslayer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    After having just spent a little over $600 on text books, I am quite interested to see how this plays out.

    1. Re:Let's hope this goes well... by Killer+Orca · · Score: 2, Insightful

      According to TFA this study was done for high school textbooks only, perhaps they will go on to supply books to other grade levels but penetrating the cash cow that is university publishing is no easy task.

    2. Re:Let's hope this goes well... by snspdaarf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Isn't that the truth. And the best scam of all is the professor that requires his own book(s) for class, and changes which ones he uses each year so there is no buy-back at the end of the semester. That's right, Miner, I still think you are a prick 40 years on.

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
  3. Also great proof of the power... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...of insolvency.

    Makes that free stuff all the better.

  4. Re:Computers to read the textbooks by TaggartAleslayer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I bought my netbook this year for less than the cost of two textbooks. I would go so far as to say the college book store could still make a decent living by offering rental and sale netbooks pre-loaded with proper course materials for much, much cheaper than what students pay on books right now.

  5. Re:Computers to read the textbooks by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Open Source" needn't mean(though it certainly can) "read on a computer". Obviously, digital distribution is convenient because copying is essentially free; but for locations where digital use is inconvenient or impossible, it isn't rocket surgery to send a digital document to the printer's and have copies made.

    Since, with an OSS document(or one that you own the rights to) you can have anybody you want print it, you can put out the printing for competitive bid, and should be able to get it done for not too much above cost(and printing is actually pretty cheap, compared to textbook costs).

    The issue of open vs. proprietary, for textbooks, is pretty much orthogonal to the issue of digital vs. printed.

  6. I'm fine with open-source textbooks... by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But I hope we don't resort to wiki textbooks which anyone can edit.

    1. Re:I'm fine with open-source textbooks... by FictionPimp · · Score: 5, Funny

      I always used to go though my textbooks before I turned them in and highlighted useless phrases and wrote totally incorrect notes in them.

      But I am an asshole after all.

  7. Re:Computers to read the textbooks by TaggartAleslayer · · Score: 2, Informative

    Easier to wreck a netbook, yes. But, with the cost of books alone for this year, I could buy two per semester and still have change left over.

    I got my EEE PC for under $200 and am enrolled full time working toward a BSBA. That's what my observations are based off of, as a reference.

  8. Richard Feynman on selecting California textbooks by mounthood · · Score: 5, Informative
    Funny story by Richard Feynman about selecting textbooks in California. Makes you hope for the future.

    In 1964 the eminent physicist Richard Feynman served on the State of California's Curriculum Commission and saw how the Commission chose math textbooks for use in California's public schools. In his acerbic memoir of that experience, titled "Judging Books by Their Covers," Feynman analyzed the Commission's idiotic method of evaluating books, and he described some of the tactics employed by schoolbook salesmen who wanted the Commission to adopt their shoddy products.

    http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm

    --
    tomorrow who's gonna fuss
  9. Re:WooHoo my first first by sakdoctor · · Score: 4, Funny

    I actually posted before you from my kindle, but amazon deleted it.

  10. Re:Computers to read the textbooks by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Open source" takes on a figurative meaning when it comes to things that aren't software(though given the difference between print-ready formats and the input files that created them a source vs. binary style distinction can be said to exist with texts as well); but it is still a well formed concept in that context.

    "Public domain" means not under copyright. "Open source" typically implies "Under copyright; but available subject either to essentially no terms, or subject to the requirement that you extend the rights given to you to any people you give the work to". Those are sometimes equivalent in effect (public domain vs. new BSD doesn't make a big difference in many contexts); but that doesn't make them equivalent in general.

  11. aweome news by pak9rabid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The text book industry is such a ridiculous racket it sickens me. Hopefully this becomes a standard thing across the world that colleges eventually adopt. Honestly, the only times I did open a textbook in high school and college was to do the problems out of the book. The Internet resources were more than enough to service my educational needs, in many cases it was actually far better than the crap in the textbooks.

    1. Re:aweome news by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The text book industry is such a ridiculous racket it sickens me. Hopefully this becomes a standard thing across the world that colleges eventually adopt. Honestly, the only times I did open a textbook in high school and college was to do the problems out of the book. The Internet resources were more than enough to service my educational needs, in many cases it was actually far better than the crap in the textbooks.

      The problem is that the education industry is a ridiculous racket. The textbook industry is merely a subset of the education industry. One mistake many people make is that since most schools are non-profit and/or government run, they think that they are not driven to make money. I used to work for two separate college bookstore companies (not at the same time). Everybody always thinks that the for profit companies charge more for textbooks than the college run bookstores. That is not true, most college run bookstores charge a higher markup than the contractual markup that the for profit companies have (the for profit companies have a contract with the college or university that--among other things--sets the amount of markup the bookstore charges for textbooks over the publisher's price).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:aweome news by pak9rabid · · Score: 2, Funny

      The problem is that the education industry is a ridiculous racket. The textbook industry is merely a subset of the education industry.

      I couldn't agree more

      Everybody always thinks that the for profit companies charge more for textbooks than the college run bookstores. That is not true, most college run bookstores charge a higher markup than the contractual markup that the for profit companies have (the for profit companies have a contract with the college or university that--among other things--sets the amount of markup the bookstore charges for textbooks over the publisher's price).

      Agreed as well. In fact while I was in school and when I managed to get my parents to buy my textbooks, they wouldn't even bother with the local bookstores (including the university ones). Instead they would scour the Internet for them and usually find them for 1/3 of the price. The downside to this, however, is I'd come in with some pretty janky-ass looking books that weren't even allowed to be sold to people in my region, complete with 'NOT FOR SALE IN NORTH AMERICA' disclaimers printed all over the covers. Boy was that a conversation starter for my fellow classmates.

    3. Re:aweome news by Toonol · · Score: 2, Informative

      The downside to this, however, is I'd come in with some pretty janky-ass looking books that weren't even allowed to be sold to people in my region, complete with 'NOT FOR SALE IN NORTH AMERICA' disclaimers printed all over the covers.

      Just did that for my son. 1st edition physics textbook, $160 at the bookstore; used copies around $130. Identical copy, new, purchased online from a bookseller in India: $14. In English, identical in every way (same page numbers, same sample problems), but with the "not for sale in North America" banner on the back. Just makes me MORE determined to work hard to make sure the textbook publishers get as little of my money as possible.

  12. Instructor Materials and Supplements? by moehoward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Instructor materials and supplements were not included. So, this is basically a setup/joke.

    Traditional textbooks are purchased because of the ancillary material that comes with them. This includes, support, Web sites for both students and instructors, assessment software, assessment preparation material, copious student assignments and solutions, automatic grading software, prepared lecture material, etc.

    I have never seen open textbooks work in a subject area that requires frequent updates, such as fundamental computer concepts, or modern application software (office suites...). I do think, however, open can be somewhat successful solid subjects, such as calculus. Note that I bring up these subject area because a LOT of books are sold in these area. But, even in something like a math course, open textbooks run into the "staleness" issue. That is, students do the assignments or tests and then the solutions are passed on to the next year's students. Publishers do quite a bit of work to change problems. Do not underestimate the amount of work and editing/QA involved in such an effort.

    If you think students are lazy these days, you should see the instructors. They demand new end-of-chapter problems, new quizzes, new tests. And they want it all automatically graded electronically. This can't be delivered by open textbooks.

    --
    "If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
    1. Re:Instructor Materials and Supplements? by CastrTroy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fundamental computer concepts don't change that often. That's why they are fundamental. Search algorithms haven't changed in 30 years. The languages we write them in has, but most of the stuff in computer science could be taught in pseudo-code, and the assignments could be done in any language. I would have preferred buying a bunch of cheaper open source books plus 5 or 6 programming-language-of-the-day books as a opposed to buying 30 books which weren't open source and didn't really cover anything that has changed in the past 10 years.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:Instructor Materials and Supplements? by paulsnx2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "But, even in something like a math course, open textbooks run into the "staleness" issue. That is, students do the assignments or tests and then the solutions are passed on to the next year's students. Publishers do quite a bit of work to change problems. Do not underestimate the amount of work and editing/QA involved in such an effort."

      This is now an absurd claim, at this point. WolframAlpha returns you the answer to any problem by just typing it in.

      Take for example one I just made up as I was typing this:

      Limit as x -> 0 of (sqrt(sin (x-5)) + tan((y- pi/2)^2)) / x(y-2)^2

      And bingo, it gives the answer, as well as gives the series expansion:

      http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Limit+as+x+-%3E+0+of+(sqrt(sin+(x-5))+%2B+tan((y-+pi%2F2)^2))+%2F+x(y-2)^2

      Besides, an Open Textbook can be modified, updated, support the development of new resources, homework sets, etc. by the teachers themselves. So they can leverage the MASSIVE amount of prep work they all do anyway. But with a closed book system, these teachers all have to reinvent the wheel for themselves, as they cannot share their efforts based on a copyrighted book.

    3. Re:Instructor Materials and Supplements? by ggurley · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "I have never seen open textbooks work in a subject area that requires frequent updates, such as fundamental computer concepts, or modern application software (office suites...)."

      Hopefully this will change. I've contributed a lot of my learning materials for OpenOffice.org to the Documentation Project (documentation.openoffice.org/conceptualguide) under an open license, including an eBook version of my paperback title (ISBN 978-0-9778991-6-6), Moodle Course Package complete with quizzes, exams, test bank, exercises, etc. and supplementary materials. With the limited financial and human resources I have to work with, I would say that it has been successful in providing schools the materials they need to consider alternative, open source applications for instructional use.

      Best regards,

      Gabriel Gurley

      Contributor, OpenOffice.org Documentation and Education Projects

    4. Re:Instructor Materials and Supplements? by bcrowell · · Score: 2, Informative

      Instructor materials and supplements were not included. So, this is basically a setup/joke.

      Your statement is literally true, but very misleading. The state didn't ask anyone to submit ancillary materials, so even if the ancillary materials exist, you're not going to see them listed on the clrn.org site. As a specific example, I submitted my physics textbook, and my ancillary materials are available here. They include a test bank, solutions to homework problems, and an instructor's manual.

      This includes, support, Web sites for both students and instructors, assessment software, assessment preparation material, copious student assignments and solutions, automatic grading software, prepared lecture material, etc.

      My book includes a web site, assessment software, lots of homework problems and solutions, and automatic grading software.

      But, even in something like a math course, open textbooks run into the "staleness" issue. That is, students do the assignments or tests and then the solutions are passed on to the next year's students. Publishers do quite a bit of work to change problems. Do not underestimate the amount of work and editing/QA involved in such an effort.

      In my own field, physics, your description is completely inaccurate in critical ways. Big commercial books like Halliday and Resnick come out in new editions every few years. The new editions typically have zero changes to the presentation of the material, and very few new homework problems. What they actually tend to do is renumber the homework problems so that it becomes a huge hassle to use the old edition side by side with the new one. This is simply to kill off the market for used books.

      I'd also be interested in seeing your evidence for your statement that 'open textbooks run into the "staleness" issue.' Open textbooks are actually easier to change, because they're typically not produced and distributed via conventional printing. They're either distributed purely via the web or, in some cases, via print on demand services like lulu. In fact, one of the governor's big talking points in favor of free and open-source textbooks has been that they can be updated more rapidly, unlike antiquated paper books from traditional publishers. In fact, one of the issues discussed extensively at the symposium this week was the fear that open-source textbooks would change too quickly. The K-12 bureacracy is heavily oriented toward top-down control over textbook selection, and they actually want to impose a two-year freeze on digital texts once they're approved, so that the books won't change after having been blessed as conforming to state standards.

      And they want it all automatically graded electronically. This can't be delivered by open textbooks.

      Huh? This "can't" be delivered by open textbooks? This is particularly off base. In fact, automatic electronic grading was pioneered by open-source folks at universities. One of the first systems used for math and physics was LON-CAPA, which is open-source software that was first developed about 20 years ago at MSU, and is still being actively developed and supported. Here is a list of some open-source software for this type of thing. What's changed within the last few years is that the publishers have started offering these things as services that students have to pay for, and promoting them heavily in publications like The Physics Teacher. So if all you've been exposed to is sales reps' pitches, I can see how you'd be under the impression that it only exists in proprietary form, but that's completely inaccurate.

    5. Re:Instructor Materials and Supplements? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Zero. You didn't show your work. Sure, you could probably take that series expansion and work backward into something I might believe you did yourself, but by the time you do all that you might as well just have answered the question yourself. And you're going to fail miserably on the next question, which is short answer.

      Yes, I mark university assignments. No, I really don't care what answer they get.

  13. Re:Richard Feynman on selecting California textboo by RyoShin · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those who don't want to read the excerpt, here's the best (and most telling) bit: Of all those on the committee, only Feynman (I believe) actually read any of the books. Two books, followups to another textbook that had been submitted, had not even been finished, yet many of the committee panel gave them some of the highest ratings.

    I wish I was as cool as Richard Feynman.

  14. Re:Richard Feynman on selecting California textboo by six11 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was checking the comments to see if anybody had mentioned that yet, as I was going to say the same thing myself.

    I *highly* recommend that link, as well as the book from whence it came, Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman. In fact I think that book should be required reading for any self-respecting nerd.

  15. Re:Computers to read the textbooks by cparker15 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The books are not in the public domain--they are available under permissive copyright licenses. For example, CK-12 Calculus (PDF) is licensed under CC BY-SA (page 2 of the PDF). This is the only book I checked, but I expect most (if not all) are licensed similarly.

    If the books were public domain, they could be redistributed as proprietary works under another's name. Instead, these books are essentially GPL'd (again, assuming they're all licensed similarly).

    --
    Have you driven a fnord... lately?

    You must wait a little bit before using this resource; please try again later.

  16. Reference library by gninnor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think it would be great that at the time of graduation a person had an entire electronic library of reference material. This could make it possible, if you are in 8th grade and find that you are rusty on some of the information from last year, just run a search.

  17. some notes from an attendee by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Informative

    I was at the symposium where the results were announced, and I wrote up some notes about it here. It was actually a pretty interesting panel discussion, with open-source types side by side on the platform along with reps from the publishing industry and the computer hardware industry (which is drooling over the opportunity this represents of selling more computers to schools so they can access electronic books).

    The slashdot summary is not particularly accurate.

    1. It wasn't a competition. Anyone could submit a book, and it wasn't like one had to lose so another could win. The state simply checked submissions to see whether they covered the topics listed in the standard.
    2. "Many traditional publishers submitted textbooks..." I don't think this is true. I believe that only Pearson submitted anything.

    What Pearson submitted was just a consumable biology workbook, so it's not especially surprising that it wasn't judged as developing all the topics on the list.

    The story isn't really that the traditional publishers tried and failed, it's that they essentially sat this one out. Pearson did a half-assed token submission, and the other publisher that had a rep at the symposium, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, didn't submit anything at all. They're clearly highly allergic to the "free" part of "Free Digital Textbook Initiative."

    1. Re:some notes from an attendee by RobBebop · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ben,

      Thanks for the clarification and your efforts in the free books arena.

      I took some time to look through a bit of what CK12 has available on their website and it's clear who the real champion of these free textbook successes is... Jimmy Wales and the work of Millions of dedicated people who have contributed to the Wikipedia project.

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
  18. Wikibooks by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But I hope we don't resort to wiki textbooks which anyone can edit.

    What do you have against Wikibooks, especially if you use the revision as of a given date that the instructor has approved?

  19. Some positive things about open textbooks. by bezenek · · Score: 5, Informative

    (Side note: A quick reminder: These are K-12 textbooks, not college-level texts.)

    Here are some positive things to think about, which assumes the books will be available electronically--making them easily printable and available from anywhere. These comments come from someone who grew up in a family of K-12 teachers:

    1. Being able to "take a textbook home" without having to carry it will almost certainly lead to more at-home study and better students.

    2. People who choose to do home schooling will benefit from this. And, by using the same texts, there is an opportunity for a smooth transition to/from home schooling.

    3. Schools with budget problems might see a big win here.

    4. The moderate hassle of keeping track of textbooks which are loaned to students each semester/school-year/etc. will be mitigated.

    I am sure there are some others.

    As for the problem of teaching aids, I believe an on-line repository allowing teachers to contribute aids they have developed for themselves for others to use would quickly fill this void. In my experience, K-12 teachers are almost always willing to contribute their efforts to help fellow teachers.

    Todd

    --
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico.
    1. Re:Some positive things about open textbooks. by Darinbob · · Score: 2, Informative

      The couple of CK-12 PDFs I looked at would have printed out nicely. But they lackd some some stuff. No side bar table of contents, and the contents at the start of the book was short, and no index. Ie, you had to click on chapter 3, then scroll a lot to get to the problems at the end of that chapter. These were 400 and 800 page books, with 50-75 pages per chapter. There were no chapter headings at the top and bottom of each page to orient you as you flipped through it or jumped to a random page. So, aside from the actual content, the structure of the books needed polishing to be either a good printed book or online text.

  20. 'cause math should be low-res pixel graphics... by WillAdams · · Score: 3, Insightful

    and not line up on the baseline --- look at the CK-12 Calculus textbook (http://cafreetextbooks.ck12.org/math/CK12_Calculus.pdf) --- and of course Arial is the perfect choice for running text and it's perfect appropriate to use Computer Modern for equations in text, but Times and Symbol to label graphs....

    Would someone please teach these people about typography?

    William

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    1. Re:'cause math should be low-res pixel graphics... by Carbaholic · · Score: 5, Funny

      Wow, a person who is truly upset by the typography of a math textbook.

      I commend you. You sir, are a nerd's nerd.

    2. Re:'cause math should be low-res pixel graphics... by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why are these not written in LaTeX? This looks like they were written in Word with the equations generated by another program and copied in.

      It was specifically designed to do stuff like this. I'm trying to learn it right now, it's definitely not the easiest, but it's 100x more powerful than Word and it's just PlainText.

      Imagine doing an "svn checkout http://textbooks.org/grade/12/calculus" and or seeing the entire revision history.

    3. Re:'cause math should be low-res pixel graphics... by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Informative

      About LaTeX:

      ``It was specifically designed to do stuff like this. I'm trying to learn it right now, it's definitely not the easiest, but it's 100x more powerful than Word and it's just PlainText.''

      And the best advantage of all: it works. When the choice is between LaTeX and MS Word, people often choose MS Word because it's easier to get started with. This is actually a good idea when you're writing simple documents of a few pages each. But if your document will be more than a few pages, have lots of figures, is intended to be released in book form, contains formulae, or any other sort of more advanced thing, LaTeX starts to actually win out. It pretty much automatically does the right thing, and your investment is just having to learn the handful of features you will be using.

      If you want to adapt things to your liking (and it isn't a matter of using a .sty file someone else has already put together), LaTeX can get pretty involved ... but, in my experience, it's still nothing compared to MS Word's known issues: references that break all the time, things that have to be updated by clicking a lot each time you change your document, formatting that seems to lead a life of its own, and the major drawback that your document will only work more or less right in the same version of Word that it was written in.

      Simple rule of thumb: if your document is large enough to contain a table of contents, LaTeX is going to give you better results for your time than Microsoft Word.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    4. Re:'cause math should be low-res pixel graphics... by geekoid · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why don't you?
      Send them an email with you thoughts and some examples.

      Seriously. Open and online text books can vastly improve education and the education system, but it needs peple like you to do a bit.
      And if it's online, eventually ALL education systems can get value for it.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  21. Best. Book. Evar. by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The best "textbook" I ever had in college was in my Multi-variable Calculus class. The instructor had reviewed the available options and came to the conclusion that they were all overpriced junk. So, he (hand) wrote up all of the notes for the semester, with charts, graphs, and everything else. He even had a few sample problems for each lesson. He then bundled the whole thing up and had the bookstore copy it and sell if for $5, basically to cover reproduction costs. The entire thing was loose-leaf paper pre-punched for a standard three ring binder. In the end, that entire book was about $7.

    The thing is, without the massive costs which go into textbooks, they can be cheap. And, even better, if my book gets lost, damaged, or stolen who cares? It's five bucks. I also have the option to mark up my book in any way I want, and I am not worried about the resale value at the end of the class (which will be about a tenth of the books original cost to me, unless the school changes editions and the bookstore staff just laughs at me).

    For K-12 schools, this will be even better. Instead of handing a kid a $50 book, which he is going to destroy; you give him a $5 reproduction, and require him to put it in his own $2 three ring binder. When he loses it, you just give him another copy. He can even write in the book, and keep it at the end of the year. If your students have computers, you can even go so far as to give them digital copies.

    The only thing which needs to be checked is the quality and accuracy of the information. But, the State (at least California) is already doing that. And, like many Open Source projects, you can have the advantage of lots of people looking at it before hand. There just isn't a downside to having Open Source books, unless you are a textbook publisher, in which case they suck. But, as far as I care, they can join the buggy whip manufacturers on the sidelines of history.

    --
    Necessity is the mother of invention.
    Laziness is the father.
  22. Re:Computers to read the textbooks by bcrowell · · Score: 2, Informative

    I assume all the students have computers to read the textbooks? I guess a laptop for each student is cheaper than the cumulative cost of the textbooks depending on how long they keep the same textbook around

    This was a huge topic of discussion at the symposium where the results were announced. I've blogged about it here, but I'll quote the relevant part of what I wrote: "Nobody seemed sure about the implications of the settlement in the Williams case, which requires equal access to books for all students. Will poor students be locked out because they don't have computers? Schwarzenegger's proposed solution is to print out books as needed, but Murugan Pal from CK-12 pointed out that current state law allows a school to use textbook funds to pay $80 for a book from a commercial publisher, but forbids it to pay $10 to print out a copy of a free book at Kinko's."

    There was a heavy presence from the computer hardware industry, too. They love the idea of walking into a California public school and selling one netbook per student.

  23. CK-12 textbooks painful to read by Animats · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Someone else criticized the typography of the C-12 textbooks. The graphs are worse. I'm reading their "Calculus" book. The axis scales on the graphs tend to be very tiny. You have to zoom way, way in using a PDF viewer to read the axes. At which point the graph lines show serious jaggies. Tables of numeric values are left-aligned, which makes it hard to compare values.

    There's very little motivation. The text just jumps right in, throwing formulas at the kids.

    The language is painful. "Recall that a particular pair of numbers is a solution if direct substitution of the X and Y values into the original equation yields a true equation statement." This is formally correct, but it uses the concept of evaluating an equation as a truth-valued Boolean statement, which is beyond the scope of this text.

    On pages 15-16, the book discusses depreciation. One problem says "Assuming the rate of depreciation of the car is constant..." What they mean is that the price declines linearly (into negative territory?). A "constant rate of depreciation" is usually understood as a constant percentage rate. (The financial community uses "straight line depreciation" to refer to linear depreciation.) This also could have led to a useful discussion of exponentials, compound interest, decay, and inflation, but they don't go there. They change the subject and go on.

    The text assumes that the student has some specific model of graphing calculator, but doesn't say what it is. (Incidentally, the whole course is a PDF file formatted for printing, not HTML with applets, which might be more useful.)

    There's a section on fitting a curve to a set of data. It tells the student what buttons to push on the calculator, but says nothing about what's going on inside.

    The terms "open interval" and "closed interval" are used, but not defined before use. The text also uses capital letters like N to indicate sets of pairs of reals on page 68. This is a confusing usage from more advanced math. I think that some of the theorems were cut and pasted from another source, and don't quite fit the text.

    When the text finally gets to integrals and derivatives, it doesn't start by pointing out that they're inverse operations. Both are presented separately. The text would be better if it started off with a completely graphical presentation of what's going on, instead of starting with derivations.

    This text has all the stuff on the checklist, but presents them incoherently. This is not a good textbook.

  24. Re:Richard Feynman on selecting California textboo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    You can read it in its entirety at

    http://www.gorgorat.com/

    And then you should go buy it and give it to a friend.

  25. PGDP uses LaTeX sometimes by fritsd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Several of the PGDP projects of maths books are meant to be marked up with LaTeX, e.g. this one in round F1:
    Journal de Mathématiques Pures et Appliquées (1838) (ed. Joseph Liouville) (warning, PGDP membership required)
    Now this is probably not a really suitable example for school use, but e.g. a book like Elementary Algebra for Schools, by H.S. Hall and S.R. Knight (1885) (warning, PGDP membership required) sounds about right.
    That book has already been checked and formatted but needs to be checked again and post-processed, afterwards it's public domain for anyone (including California schools) to download. In a few years time at most.
    This page (public) might be helpful if you want to help out making (old) public domain maths texts available as LaTeX e-books: PGDP LaTeX resources, especially Distributed Proofreaders LaTeX formatting manual

    --
    To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?