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How To Prove Someone Is Female?
krou writes "Caster Semenya won the 800m at the World Athletics Championship in blistering style, leaving her competitors in the dust, but she has been thrown into the midst of a scandal amidst claims that she's not really a woman. According to the many press reports, she's believed to shave, is flat chested, has a very masculine physique, previously preferred playing physical games with boys, and shunned traditional female activities and clothing. Questions about her gender have dogged her entire career. Previously, acceptance that she is a women relied on simple inspection of female genitals. But now the IAAF claim that they want to conduct further tests to see if 'she may have a rare medical condition that gives her an unfair advantage.' An IAAF spokesmen noted that 'The [testing] process was started after Semenya made her startling breakthroughs — a 25-second improvement at 1500m and eight seconds at 800m, just some weeks ago.' I'm curious what the Slashdot community thinks: what can be considered proof of someone being male or female? Is it simply a case of having the right genitals, or are there other criteria that should be used? Is the IAAF right in claiming that someone should be prevented from competing because they have a rare medical or genetic advantage?"
I would think that a genetic test would prove whether or not she was.. well... a she.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
"she may have a rare medical condition that gives her an unfair advantage.' "
What kind of bullshit is this? Your genetics are 80% of the winning. Personally, I was born with messed up feet so I have always known that I wouldn't be the sprinting world champion. The fact that this woman(because that's what she is) has the better genetic profile to win these kinds of races is to her advantage and the people who didn't win are to accept that or play another game.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
Everyone competing in IAAF competitions should be fat, lazy, nonathletic, slobs. Otherwise its unfair to all the fat, lazy, nonathletic slobs who just cant compete.
I think slashdot should start with the correct definitions, being a technical community and all: Sex is, Gender does. Second, Slashdot of all places should know that the two are correlations, not causations. And lastly, I'd like to believe that as a community that espouses scientific values and intelligent discourse, the answer should be obvious:
You can't.
Life is full of delicious ambiguity, and people assume that two polar opposites (male and female) have nothing in between. But life isn't like that. Life is a spectrum, and any place we draw the line is arbitrary -- not natural. Nature has its own laws, which are not the laws of men.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Most people have an okay time with "male" and "female" as unproblematic concepts, because for the majority of people all the things that might go into the concepts correlate at least reasonably well. Most females are genetically XX, and have both primary and secondary sexual characteristics typical of females. Most males are XY, and have primary/secondary characteristics typical of males.
If those things aren't all correlated nicely, though, it makes clear that there isn't really a solid definition that covers all aspects of what we mean. A genetic test for XX vs. XY? (And then what do you do about XXY?) Just an issue of primary sexual traits? (Do secondary sexual traits matter?) A combination of all the above? (And then what do you do if they don't all match up?)
At some point the distinctions become somewhat arbitrary, and to me at least not all that interesting: there isn't actually any magical "right" answer to the question. Perhaps to get an answer that makes sense in this context we might first answer: what is the purpose of having separate male/female sporting competitions, and which definition of sex or gender would contribute towards that purpose best?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It's Not That Simpleâ.
Besides, you're ignoring the point. The real issue here is highlighted by this passage:
In a world where people can change their identities at will (transsexualism, etc.), or otherwise, what changes need to be made to the outdated simple classifications?
And additionally, the obnoxious notion of "fairness" further complicates the issue.
I disagree. Her ability to run was what got this whole discussion started in the first place :P
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it well worth the effort.
I somewhat agree with you but a 'rare genetic variation' is simply that, RARE. Under normal circumstances, there are genetic markers that distinguish a male from a female and if this particular athlete has a rare variation or abnormality in his/her DNA then that bridge should be crossed when it's come to.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
And additionally, the obnoxious notion of "fairness" further complicates the issue.
When issues like these come up, I'm always reminded of Harrison Bergeron
Seriously though, we live post-Genome Project, is it REALLY that difficult to just sequence her DNA to see if there exist two X Chromosomes without a freaking political scandal?
Also I think you have to define it genetically otherwise people that have a sex change could compete as the sex they want to.
Why obsess over it in the first place? What, in the grad scheme of things, difference does it make? So, what if one or two hermaphrodites, or for that matter impostors, do get away with it? It's just freaking sports. I'd recommend standard diligence and then take any later revelations as and if they come.
You know, from my point of view, all of these world-class athletes are genetic abnormalities. It's a little rich for them to point to the best of themselves and yell "SHE'S the freak!"
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
Even criminals have rights.
If one wants to compete, they have to take a test. If they don't consent, they don't compete. This is not a violation of rights because there is no necessity or right to compete.
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And as much as I hate defending government, a DNA sequence is probably a heck of a lot less invasive and humiliating than what she's probably going through right now.
Here's the problem: while she might be genetically female, and have female genitalia, I think there is a very strong likelihood she has some kind of severe hormone imbalance that is pumping extreme amounts of testosterone into her system. This would account for her physique, total lack of breasts, deep voice, facial hair, etc. Most likely she has some kind of tumor on her adrenal glands.
And therein lies the issue. If her body is producing much more testosterone than it should be, it's ultimately no different than if she were taking steroids -- it gives her an unfair advantage over the competition that have normal levels of testosterone.
I also understand there is a fine line to be drawn here. It's easy to say "well this is the way she was born, it's not like she's using illegal drugs", but the end result is the same. But it could be a slippery slope. We know that, for example, certain body types are better at swimming than others (tall and lanky, long arms and feet -- basically Michael Phelps). Do we then disqualify athletes that have a "genetic" advantage? Of course that's not right either.
I think it has to come down to whether a deviation is grossly abnormal or within what would be considered as normal. Michael Phelps, although physically advantaged to swimming, still has normal body proportions. If his arms or feet were grossly and abnormally long, would it still be considered fair?
So she has a rare genetic makeup, doesn't every world class athlete have a rare genetic makeup? I consider myself ordinary male and I can't do most of the stuff even a female Olympic athlete can.
Athletes, the Track & Field ones, are already required to piss in a cup for drug testing. The results of which will eventually be published for a positive test. DNA testing is just an extrapolation of an existing process. From the IAAF's perspective participants have no right to hide their sexual identity. Don't like the rules? go form your own organization. Vince McMahon will tell you that's a dumb idea (re: XFL with no drug tests). You want to talk about privacy invasion, try looking at the list of drugs which aren't allowed in an athlete's system and see how many you may have in your medicine cabinet. The majority of cough medicines are verboten. The right question isn't so much about privacy as much as it is how a governing organization should go about sanctioning a fair competition.
Who said it's the government? It amazes me how many "libertarians" equate business with government.
The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
Go read about androgen insensitivity syndrome. A person with complete androgen insensitivity has the external appearance (including external genitals) of a normal female, and usually has been raised with a female identity, and so identifies as a girl or woman. But she has no menstrual period because she has no ovaries or uterus -- she has an XY genotype and undescended internal testes. Androgens (male hormones) create the male external appearance; in the absence of androgens, a fetus develops a female appearance -- and parents and society assign a female identity.
It seems to me that a reasonable approach to dealing fairly with intersexed people in sports would be to replace sex separation with weight-class separation. Human sex and gender turn out to be complex and fraught with both social and technical problems, and it is unreasonable to deny an athlete the chance to compete just because their genetic curiosity happens to be on the 23rd chromosome.
Shouldn't these track and field events be a place where we humans can come together and show how far we're able to push our natural limitations without body modification?
Without body modification, I mean without introducing drugs or mechanical advantages into our bodies. To show how far we can go "naturally".
Rules are rules, and the sport has their own governing authority deciding what is and isn't okay.
1. Logically, if she had a sex change, this would be a modification to her body. How is this any different from doping?
2. Logically, if she was born that way, without any drug inducements, the question is, is she considered male or female?
As someone pointed out, males tend to be thought of producing sperm, and females producing ova. But, where does that leave those who don't fit that definition?
Look at one's chromosomes, and whether one's body is producing the hormones that tend to make one male or female. Is she an underdeveloped male, or is she an underveloped female? This may be an oversimplification, but don't males have more testosterone that estrogen, and females more estrogen than testosterone?
All in all, it comes down to how the governing authority of the sport defines it.
Oh, that's right. I forgot there's only two options and no possibility of deviation from those options AT ALL.
Fucking moron.
Since in the vast majority of cases, it really is one of those two options - it seems like the logical first step, given that invasive testing is apparently already the norm for track and field anymore. If Caster's test shows XX or XY, either way the case is closed. Arguing that a remote possibility of a different genetic state exists means you can't first test for the heavily dominant typical state is, quite frankly, silly. That's like arguing that a doctor shouldn't do an influenza test on a patient with flu-like symptoms because there's a remote possibility it's Brucellosis.
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If your body, for whatever reason, allows you to outperform others without the interference of artificial performance-enhancing substances, congratulations. You win.
What this whole argument has thus far ignored is the fact that athletes need at least as much if not more mental strength and inherent talent than physical strength. What she has accomplished has at least as much to do with her mind as her body.
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
It's becoming increasingly hard for me to tell the difference.
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One of the most surefire way is to see if her gametes can play their respective roll. If they can manage to form a viable embryo from her egg, case closed. If not, some more testing would be needed. Also, a genetic advantage is the reason most athletes get the gold. If she has a rare/new trait, what are you going to do when a larger percentage of the population has it in the future? It's just as discriminatory to ban them now as it would be later. Especially if it's a naturally acquired trait.
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Divisions in sport are totally arbitrary and the point of them is to match individuals or teams of nearly equal ability so that the outcomes of their contests are maximally uncertain and therefore, entertaining for both the observers and the participants. Nobody wants to watch a game where they already know who will win. Likewise, the athletes don't want to compete in a contest they're sure to lose.
Even if this "female" turns out to be an actual chick, it doesn't matter. If she's "too good" for her arbitrary division (which in this case happens to be by gender), then she will be excluded from it.
Don't flatter yourself, I expect the ordinary male cant do ANY of the stuff female Olympic athletes can.
Close, but just let men and women compete equally. head to head, no men's leagues or women's leagues. Then all of this silliness just goes away.
InnerWeb
Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
Says who? Then all men who perform worse than (pro-)women should compete in women's competitions? Should short and weaker men be allowed in women's baskteball? The rules said that the division is based on genre. There will be people who perform exceptionally well, and sometimes genetics will play a part. Having exceptions is normal. Should we forbid every baskteball player taller than a certain amount over the average to compete since their genetics give them an unfair advantage? That's just nuts.
Where is that guy who'd die defending what I had to say when I need him?
Mod parent up. Those with a natural genetic advantage should be allowed to compete and excel...this includes Shaq, Phelps, or anyone else with a natural genetic advantage.
Of course, this is going to be pretty hard on the women, since they get the short end of the genetic stick regarding certain physical traits. But there are many, many MEN that cannot compete with either the men or the women in certain sports. Statistically, there are nearly as many men that cannot compete with the best male athletes as there are females that cannot compete with the best male athletes. And as an average man I know I would have no chance against many female athletes.
I understand that the idea of a female league/sport/category for sports is something that a lot of people want, but things like TFA's quandary are just rule quibbles. There's nothing like "Oh, she was faster, but she's not really a she so it doesn't count". If she was faster, she was fucking faster, just like all the male athletes that are faster and you exclude from your league to give it a reason to exist.
yeah, that's unfair. almost as unfair as freaks with the genetic abnormality of being able to run fast or be good at weight-lifting or great hand-eye co-ordination winning all the damn time.
freaks (or to use the politically-correct euphemism "winners") shouldn't be allowed to compete against normal people. it's not fair that they're good at something.
Have you even looked at female athletes, especially swimmers and weight-lifters? They have no breasts. They lack body fat, and hence lack breasts. On top of that, they actually work out so much their hormones are out of whack. If they stop working out, things go back to normal, but while they're training, they're physically a lot like men, with the exception of the genitals.
If her body is producing an abnormal amount of testosterone, that's perfectly fine. It's not artificial. It's not unnatural. It's genetically superior. Which is, in a way, what competitions are about. It's seven parts training, and three parts genetic. If you weren't born a runner, you're not going to even come close to Usain Bolt. If you're not born a swimmer, you won't come close to Michael Phelps. That's just how it is. Things are no different just because their sex doesn't give them a head start.
Don't ever mistake that just because somebody is born genetically superior, that they'll automatically win. Nobody can sit on their ass 364 days a year and still be superior enough to be a world-class athlete. Genetic superiority just means that given the same amount of training, the person with better genes will more likely win. But that means both competitors have to train equally as hard. And believe you me, if you knew your genetics weren't ideal for what you're competing in, you'll train extra hard to make up for the difference. And in order for your genetically superior opponent to beat you, that person would have to train just as hard as you.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
I have persistent thoughts of hoping I die because I feel very strongly that I need to be a woman. I shy away from mirrors in self-disgust. I have to avoid seeing women in general or I will start to get jealous of them. I hate my life.
Why would i choose this?
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To answer the question of whether or not she should be allowed to compete as a female if she is not 100% female, one must first consider the question of whether women should be competing in a separate class at all.
Let's avoid the underlying moral and philosophical issues and just stick with the practical reason for setting things up so women compete separately: approximately 50% of the population is female, so it is a political necessity. You can argue all sorts of other reasons, but when it really comes down to it, that is the crux of it.
And if you really think about it, we don't actually have women competing against women in one group and men competing against men in another group. What we REALLY have is women competing against women in one group, and EVERYONE ELSE competing in another group. Men are not set up as a protected class, it is only women who are set up as a protected class. If a sufficiently gifted female runner wanted to compete against men, I very much suspect that she'd be allowed to do so.
Once you realize the reality that female sports are basically a protected class based on a political reality, the answer to the other question becomes pretty simple: anyone who is not 100% female is not part of the "protected class" and should therefore compete in the "everyone else" category.
Is it fair? Maybe not. But how is having women compete separately "fair" in the first place? It is just for political expediency, and personally I don't see anything wrong with it if it keeps 50% of the population happier and more fulfilled than they otherwise would be without causing any undue hardship on a significant part of the population.
As a number of folks here have already made it abundantly clear that sex is bugger-all hard to define. There's genetic sex (of which there are nearly a dozen), there's congenital development (we all start out female and then it's pretty much a crap shoot), there're even a fair number of folks without any secondary sexual characteristics at all.
Even if the young lady does or does not have perfectly normal genes, there are dozens of both natural and artificial processes that could give her an unfair advantage. The cost of eliminating all possible ways of cheating (including the unintentional cheating of atypical sexual development) would be prohibitive, and in of itself a form of unfair pandering to vested interests and religious bigots. If you think about it, the extraordinary athlete is often gifted with unusual physical traits (several of the best swimmers had unusual knee joints allowing them to hyper-extend at the knee and get a larger swing in their kicks, and a basketball player under 6 feet is for all intents unheard of.)
I would simply leave it at, if the person lives as their declared sex, functions socially as that sex, and isn't engaging in the illegal use of performance enhancing drugs... get over it.
There is a problem with this. Back when East Germany took young children to athletics camps and raised them on cocktails of steroids so they would grow up better it was wrong, and in the modern world when "some other regime" who cares more for their country winning than the effects on the athletes does the same thing with genetic selection or genetic engineering it will still be wrong
Do you suppose that already there is not some party official who has seen Usain Bolts leg measurements and thought to check the leg measurements of all the young children in order to select future winners for special training? What about when that official sees that yes indeed, longer legs means faster sprinters and orders tests done to find an undetectable method of increasing leg lengths while the child is growing? Sure, some will grow too much and live a life of misery (or just get put in the meat grinder with the other failures) but the ones who come out perfect will be winners and nobody will ever know.
The problem is that it is not "people" that want to push themselves to death, it is "people" who want to push others to their deaths and that is not something I want to sponsor. How do we protect against it when we clearly can't detect the causes? The only way is to have a range of norms and only allow those inside that range to compete.
Unfortunatley for her, it seems that Caster does in fact fall outside of the range of normal (just look at the pictures, she is not normal even when compared to other female runners), and for me the question is not whether we allow her to compete or not but what will happen if we do? I assert that that party official will be trawling orphanages immediately looking for other genetic deformities that can be exploited similarly. Won't somebody please think of the children?
Olympic cheating is a sport of its own.
The Russians and East Germans sent more bearded "ladies" through the system than I care to count.
Greek weightlifters managed to get to Beijing despite 11 of their 14-man team being caught on steroids.
The Chinese out-and-out lied and presented forged documents to the Olympic committee and IFG about the age of their gymnast girls and got away with it scot-free. North Korea wasn't so lucky since their star girl was still losing her baby teeth at the time.
Marion Jones.
And on and on... try a basic google search on Olympic Cheating.
It used to be that people went to the Olympics as true amateurs to represent their countries and sports. Now? Let's face it, the Olympics have outlived their usefulness. Countries themselves compete, not just athletes. Professional athletes play in half the sports. And the two-year schedule has robbed the games of their scarcity, so much so that 90% of people don't even notice they are happening.
The "Olympics" have become a joke, nothing more.
Oh, that's right. I forgot there's only two options and no possibility of deviation from those options AT ALL.
Fucking moron.
Since in the vast majority of cases, it really is one of those two options - it seems like the logical first step, given that invasive testing is apparently already the norm for track and field anymore. If Caster's test shows XX or XY, either way the case is closed. Arguing that a remote possibility of a different genetic state exists means you can't first test for the heavily dominant typical state is, quite frankly, silly. That's like arguing that a doctor shouldn't do an influenza test on a patient with flu-like symptoms because there's a remote possibility it's Brucellosis.
They believe that she has congenital adrenal hyperplasia... if she does have that, then she's most likely XX. The problem is that there is no belief that she has an abnormal genotype or abnormal genitalia. They believe she has something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
This is a hormone imbalance, specifically in that it causes the adrenal glands to produce too much androgens/steroids. She's naturally doped up the same as a man would be. That does not necessarily however make her a "man", any more than an XX genotype make her a "woman".
Considering that a hormone panel takes less time and is less invasive than a genetic screening, I think that should be the FIRST and FOREMOST test upon women competing... you know, while you're testing for those artificial steroids, why not look at the natural levels of them as well?!
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS