Slashdot Mirror
Alan Turing Apology Campaign Grows
chrb writes "Several British news sources have recently reported on the growing campaign that calls for an apology to Alan Turing for his persecution by the British government. The petition to the Prime Minister was started by John Graham-Cumming, who has also written to the Queen requesting a Knighthood for Turing, but admits that a pardon is 'unlikely,' saying, 'The most important thing to me is that people hear about Alan Turing and realize his incredible impact on the modern world, and how terrible the impact of prejudice was on him.'"
Ignorance knows no bounds of age. I'd heard of Turing before I was 10 years old, and I'm now the ripe old age of 26. Yet I know someone in his early forties who thought I was talking about "some bloke down the kebab shop"....
The truth shall always be free: Boris Floricic is Tron.
Bluntly? Screw it.
Screw an apology and a pardon, screw knighthood and whatnot. That man had no small impact on the outcome of the breaking of German codes and thus the outcome of the war. And the thanks was to prosecute him 'cause he was gay.
If that happened to me, I'd have wanted to kill myself for helping those hypocrites. Well, maybe he did. I couldn't care less about a half-assed apology half a century after driving him to suicide (or killing him altogether, depending on your point of view).
It's a bit like the history of Joan of Arc. Very popular and welcome in times of dire straits but quickly dumped once no longer useful and deemed a "security risk".
No thanks. I know what Turing did. For himself, for science, for "us" geeks. Whether you care about him, whether you apologize, frankly, it doesn't matter.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Excuse me, but WHY would his pardon be unlikely? He was convicted of something that is totally legal today! Shouldn't they be pardoning EVERYONE convicted under these acts? He was convicted for having sex with a man in the privacy of his own home! These idiots shunned one of the most brilliant members of their society because of who he wanted to have sex with! If there are any conservative Christians out there who need an example of why their gay-bashing is idiotic and obscenely counter-productive, look no further than the case of Alan Turing.
To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
It's not age. Turing is fairly obscure outside of computer science. Everyone on Slashdot has heard of him, of course, but has your barber? Butcher? Regardless of their age.
He contributed a lot to computer science, but scientists don't usually get much press. He was also a war hero, and those DO sometimes get fame, but most of what he did was secret until long after the war.
Just... Wow. I'd heard of Turing's contribution to computer science of course but the notion of a state that will castrate you for being Homosexual is nightmarish... and 1952 isn't all that long ago. I suppose it's a good thing that such an act can be considered so outlandish and horrific today.
Be lenient. He might on the other hand know Beckham's first name (frankly, I don't). Every group of people has their heroes...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Try picking the next 20 people you see on the street and asking them who Alan Turing was. Then ask those same people who George Patton was. Then realize that Turing had about as much to do with winning WWII as Patton did.
I am officially gone from
They'll agree, contingent on the Italian government apologizing to them for Roman treatment of the Britons.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
You mean, if you keep the parlament busy that way for the next few decades they at least won't have the time to pass any more idiotic privacy-eliminating laws?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Sure, why don't the British, French, Spanish, Dutch and Portuguese apologies for their empire-building past. The various European powers for their slave trade. The various African tribes who were already practicing slavery when the white men arrived and sold them slaves from other tribes should probably go on the list. The Mongols should probably apologise for their invasion of China too. And what about the descendants of people responsible for the fall of the Roman Empire? They definitely need to apologise!
Or, maybe, we could get over this notion that guilt is hereditary and stop asking people to apologise for things that were done by others often before they were born. If you want someone to apologise to Turing (or, rather, to you about Turing, because he's dead and therefore doesn't care) then why not go after the people who still persecute homosexuals. Better yet, get them to apologise to people who are still alive for things that they've actually done.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
If there are any conservative Christians out there who need an example of why their gay-bashing is idiotic and obscenely counter-productive, look no further than the case of Alan Turing.
Right. Because it's only conservative Christians who "gay bash." Islamic fundamentalists, for whom gay bashing laws are still on the theocratic books, get a pass in the public consciousness, as usual..
Lookit, the Americans and Western Europeans did some bad things, and then we got over it! We moved on! We entered the 21st Century!! You want to get angry, you want to get fired up, you want to actually do some good and maybe save some lives, go after Sharia, today, not Britain 50-60 years ago.
I'd just be happy to see the British apologize for their current hateful policies.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Look, Turing's been dead for 50 years. The politicians that made the laws he was convicted under are all dead. The judge who sentenced him is dead. The police and the lawyers and everyone else involved are most likely dead.
A corporate body cannot take responsibility, only an individual can, and our major moral problem is that we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that "corporate morals" means something. It doesn't. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU DO, and "just taking orders" is never an excuse. Just as a bureaucracy cannot take the fault for a heinous act, it can no more offer real contrition, nor can it offer a real apology.
(Which is, incidentally, one of the major reasons our society is so screwed up. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis from an intro to one or the other edition of Screwtape Letters, the great evil done today is not done by thieves and criminals in the dens of crime Dickens loved to paint, but by well-dressed men in offices, acting behind the shield of a bureaucracy.)
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
You also have to realize there is a fairly sizable percentage of our population who don't know even the basics about science history or history itself. Look at the Jaywalking segments on Jay Leno (a biased sample of course) and poll the people around you. There are plenty of people who don't know what major historical figures like Eisenhower, Truman, the Roosevelts, or even Lincoln really did. I bet not one person that I work with has even heard of Alan Turing or the ENIGMA machine.
Isn't Beckham's first name "Bendit"?
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
What about Oscar Wilde, then?
Doh.
My barber and butcher is the same person, he just flips the apron. I am too nervous there to ask any questions :(
Yeah, the hereditary guilt doesn't really make sense... on a personal level. But isn't there a legal principle of "continuity of the state" for which the (government of) England that harassed and prosecuted Alan Turing is the very same that still exists today?
I don't have a sig.
I know there have been apologies for slavery, but it just doesn't make any sense.
As a former foreign minister of Denmark said on the issue: We do not apologize for things we haven't done, to people it wasn't done against.
Not only before they were born, but the times it happened in, these things were very normal and standard. I am sure that our great-grand children will have plenty to apologize about for things we think are very, very normal. So here it goes: Sorry!
Oh and all women should apologize to men for taking that apple.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Turing was gay? Wow, surprised I haven't heard of that yet. Though, now when someone is homophobic, I can ask them if they like using computers and if so, tell them they have a gay man to thank for a lot of the theory behind them as well as the allies winning WWII. That should shut them the hell up.
-SaNo
Ok this opinion might be unpopular here, but the British Government has nothing to apologize about when talking of persecution of Alan Turing. The fact is: Alan Turing broke the law that was on the books at that time. The people knew of Turing's sexual orientation, but he did not have to act on it, if that was against the law.
Are you telling me that, if you lived in a country where your having sex was made illegal, that you would just stop having sex? Seriously? Do you think you could do that? Do you think that the average guy could manage that for any length of time? Because that's what it was. Turing was just a guy, living in a place where having sex with his chosen partner was illegal.
Some laws are just plain unjust. There is absolutely nothing wrong in breaking such laws.
NOW: What British government should apologize for, is persecution of all gays in the UK and the rest of the (now) commonwealth, which includes Alan Turing. The persecution in itself was wrong, not a treatment of the particular individual.
Agreed, both because the persecution in abstract was wrong, and the treatment of the individuals (Turing and the nameless others) was also wrong.
Og want apology for Thag killing Og's pet mastodon.
Prescription, invented during the Roman Empire, is supposed to stop never ending guilt, while the rule "an eye for an eye" would have left the world full of blind idiots.
I can see the point in saying guilt should't be hereditary, although the UK government is not a single person.
However, claiming injecting people with "hormonal treatments" was normal is like claiming that waterboarding is normal now. They all knew what they were doing was wrong then, just like we all know what we are doing is wrong now. We just make a pretense that it isn't.
-josh
Or, maybe, we could get over this notion that guilt is hereditary
The Head of State is the same. It makes sense for her to apologize (or not).
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
So what if he does know Beckham's first name? Athletic achievement is the lowest common denominator in human achievement and serves to inspire the weak-minded. Need proof? Name me one famous sports figure from the time of Aristotle. Ok, I'll be more generous -- let's go with Galileo. Still nothing? How about Mozart -- that was only a couple hundred years ago! My point is, sports are utterly meaningless and this Beckham character, beloved as he is now, will be utterly forgotten in the next century, where great minds such as Turing will continue to inspire the world as long as there are humans to speak of them.
To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
It is interesting that you cite Sharia for Muslim law, but do not cite your references for Hindu law. Practices in India today, do not neccessarily have anything to do with Hindu law. By all accounts Hinduism has been generally liberal with sexuality and open and accepting of various different practices including homosexuality.
When Europeans arrived in India, they were shocked by Hinduism, which they termed idolatrous, and by the range of sexual practices, including same-sex relations, which they labeled licentious. British colonial rulers wrote modern homophobia into education, law and politics.
The Wikipedia entry on Homosexuality in India also does not refer to any of the conclusions you have made. Sure, it might sound kind of cool to make up your "facts", but please cite your sources.
The creative reconstruction of history is exactly what is being discussed here and you do make a good case against it.
Can I borrow your sig?
I agree that apologizing for something that you didn't to to people who are no longer alive doesn't make much sense. I think that John's first suggestion of knighting him is a great idea. It's not an apology; it is honoring him for his tremendous contributions to the country, in spite of the horrible way he was treated.
It has much of the same social benefit that apologizing to him would. He should have been knighted while he was alive, and the only reason he wasn't was because he was gay. Choosing to do so now recognizes this fact and states that we will no longer overlook someone because of their sexuality.
If you want to apologize, apologize to the people who are still living that were put though this garbage. For Turing in particular the important thing is to remember what he accomplished and what he was put through, and officially honoring him is an excellent way to do this.
Your views might not align with that of others. That does not mean that we should consider with different views to us as weak-minded.
I consider athletic achievement on par with intellectual achievements, along with military, monetary and political achievements. Why? Because they are all attained by people who dedicates their life to a single goal. In my view, that is the most important thing.
Now, coming to your view, you have considered only scientists and artists. The point, I guess, being that the world is the way it is now only due to scientific achievements. I disagree on that. Politics and military has played a far far bigger role in shaping the world as we see it now. Again, much of athletic achievements and military achievements go hand in hand. Also, when survival was at stake - which was the case for majority of human existence, athletic capabilities played as big a role as intellectual capabilities. Similar is the case with monetary and artistic achievements too.
I am also more inspired by intellectual achievements than others, but let us not denigrate others based solely on that. Judging others by our morals is not always correct.
rajmohan_h@yahoo.com
The fact is: Alan Turing broke the law that was on the books at that time.
So did: Oskar Schindler, The Suffragettes, Galileo Galilei, the Founding Fathers of the United States, and Jesus Christ.
Breaking the law is not necessarily a bad thing when you live in an unjust world.
off the top of my head, Milo of Croton (father of weightlifting) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Croton but that was actually 300 years earlier, he was in Pythagoras' time.
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
I think you mistake organizations for the people who make them up.
Let us say a corporation takes an illegal action. Everyone within it who was responsible for that resigns and is subsequently replaced. That corporation is still on the hook as an organization, even though none of the individuals within it was responsible.
An apology to Alan Turing would be, in effect, an official statement that "We realize we were wrong to persecute someone because he was gay. We have learned that lesson and will not do it again." It's perfectly appropriate for the British government to make that statement, because the British government did the persecuting in the first place. It doesn't matter if its members have changed.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
Often, GLBT-issues get completely ignored by the history books.
Here's one that has major implications for the Slashdot crowd: One person was responsible for two of the major revolutions in computing in our era: Lynn Conway, a transgendered individual. Back in the 1960s, "he" worked at IBM, where "he" invented multiple-issue dynamic instruction scheduling, the way-ahead-of-its-time idea of executing multiple instructions at the same time in a single CPU that was to make the performance boom of the late '90s and the '00s possible. Conway was fired by IBM in 1968 for stating her intent to transition from male to female, and had to rebuild her career up from scratch a second time around with a blank slate (starting out as a contractor and building up to ultimately heading the LSI group at Xerox PARC). And from this work, she and Carver Mead invented VSLI -- the Mead and Conway Revolution that lead to the boom of CPU advancements of the '80s.
Dear Lord: I don't want to go back to college, so please help me be sexy. Amen.
Canada has more than three times the land mass of India.
Additionally, the section of Manu Smriti that you cited is this:
That pertains to infidelity, not homosexuality.