Slashdot Mirror
Alan Turing Apology Campaign Grows
chrb writes "Several British news sources have recently reported on the growing campaign that calls for an apology to Alan Turing for his persecution by the British government. The petition to the Prime Minister was started by John Graham-Cumming, who has also written to the Queen requesting a Knighthood for Turing, but admits that a pardon is 'unlikely,' saying, 'The most important thing to me is that people hear about Alan Turing and realize his incredible impact on the modern world, and how terrible the impact of prejudice was on him.'"
How about having the British apologize to everyone who was wronged by their hateful policies in the past?
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Ignorance knows no bounds of age. I'd heard of Turing before I was 10 years old, and I'm now the ripe old age of 26. Yet I know someone in his early forties who thought I was talking about "some bloke down the kebab shop"....
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Bluntly? Screw it.
Screw an apology and a pardon, screw knighthood and whatnot. That man had no small impact on the outcome of the breaking of German codes and thus the outcome of the war. And the thanks was to prosecute him 'cause he was gay.
If that happened to me, I'd have wanted to kill myself for helping those hypocrites. Well, maybe he did. I couldn't care less about a half-assed apology half a century after driving him to suicide (or killing him altogether, depending on your point of view).
It's a bit like the history of Joan of Arc. Very popular and welcome in times of dire straits but quickly dumped once no longer useful and deemed a "security risk".
No thanks. I know what Turing did. For himself, for science, for "us" geeks. Whether you care about him, whether you apologize, frankly, it doesn't matter.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Excuse me, but WHY would his pardon be unlikely? He was convicted of something that is totally legal today! Shouldn't they be pardoning EVERYONE convicted under these acts? He was convicted for having sex with a man in the privacy of his own home! These idiots shunned one of the most brilliant members of their society because of who he wanted to have sex with! If there are any conservative Christians out there who need an example of why their gay-bashing is idiotic and obscenely counter-productive, look no further than the case of Alan Turing.
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Why not a general to all people who have been victims of unfair discrimination?
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It's not age. Turing is fairly obscure outside of computer science. Everyone on Slashdot has heard of him, of course, but has your barber? Butcher? Regardless of their age.
He contributed a lot to computer science, but scientists don't usually get much press. He was also a war hero, and those DO sometimes get fame, but most of what he did was secret until long after the war.
Just... Wow. I'd heard of Turing's contribution to computer science of course but the notion of a state that will castrate you for being Homosexual is nightmarish... and 1952 isn't all that long ago. I suppose it's a good thing that such an act can be considered so outlandish and horrific today.
Be lenient. He might on the other hand know Beckham's first name (frankly, I don't). Every group of people has their heroes...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Try picking the next 20 people you see on the street and asking them who Alan Turing was. Then ask those same people who George Patton was. Then realize that Turing had about as much to do with winning WWII as Patton did.
I am officially gone from
If there are any conservative Christians out there who need an example of why their gay-bashing is idiotic and obscenely counter-productive, look no further than the case of Alan Turing.
Right. Because it's only conservative Christians who "gay bash." Islamic fundamentalists, for whom gay bashing laws are still on the theocratic books, get a pass in the public consciousness, as usual..
Lookit, the Americans and Western Europeans did some bad things, and then we got over it! We moved on! We entered the 21st Century!! You want to get angry, you want to get fired up, you want to actually do some good and maybe save some lives, go after Sharia, today, not Britain 50-60 years ago.
If you're visiting Manchester in the north-west of England, don't forget to visit the statue of Alan Turing: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.476722,-2.236028&spn=0.01,0.01&t=m&q=53.476722,-2.236028.
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
There is no reason why the current UK govt. wouldn't do this - after all, it's apologizing for something that a completely different set of leaders is guilty of. They will do it for no other reason but because it makes sheer political sense. No, not because it's the right thing to do.
Likewise, the Lockerbie bomber wasn't released because it's the right thing to do, but because Gaddafi all but publicly promised natural gas and oil at favourable prices, in return.
In other words: fuck it all.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
... I want big $$$ compensation for what the Tories did to my Colonial ancestors! Cold hard cash in 100 Euro bills would be nice, but I'll settle for Paypal and lose that 2.9 percent if that's how it has to happen.
Look, Turing's been dead for 50 years. The politicians that made the laws he was convicted under are all dead. The judge who sentenced him is dead. The police and the lawyers and everyone else involved are most likely dead.
A corporate body cannot take responsibility, only an individual can, and our major moral problem is that we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that "corporate morals" means something. It doesn't. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU DO, and "just taking orders" is never an excuse. Just as a bureaucracy cannot take the fault for a heinous act, it can no more offer real contrition, nor can it offer a real apology.
(Which is, incidentally, one of the major reasons our society is so screwed up. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis from an intro to one or the other edition of Screwtape Letters, the great evil done today is not done by thieves and criminals in the dens of crime Dickens loved to paint, but by well-dressed men in offices, acting behind the shield of a bureaucracy.)
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
You also have to realize there is a fairly sizable percentage of our population who don't know even the basics about science history or history itself. Look at the Jaywalking segments on Jay Leno (a biased sample of course) and poll the people around you. There are plenty of people who don't know what major historical figures like Eisenhower, Truman, the Roosevelts, or even Lincoln really did. I bet not one person that I work with has even heard of Alan Turing or the ENIGMA machine.
Isn't Beckham's first name "Bendit"?
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
What about Oscar Wilde, then?
Doh.
It's not a literal apology to Turing. This wouldn't make sense, he's dead. This is an acknowledgment of wrongdoing. It goes toward making sure it never happens again. This apology is for living people. It's the UK government saying "Don't persecute gays, because they might be awesome and invent computers."
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My barber and butcher is the same person, he just flips the apron. I am too nervous there to ask any questions :(
Be lenient. He might on the other hand know Beckham's first name (frankly, I don't).
Victoria.
Simple test: Can a politician can deliver a heart felt apology for mistakes made by the British Government and convince someone hearing it that its actually sincere.
In 50 years nobody has passed the test, I won't hold be holding my breath for this one.
> writings in the Bible show us it is evil and wrong.
Just like weaving two kinds of cloth. You evil blends you!
#!/bin/csh cat $0
Turing was gay? Wow, surprised I haven't heard of that yet. Though, now when someone is homophobic, I can ask them if they like using computers and if so, tell them they have a gay man to thank for a lot of the theory behind them as well as the allies winning WWII. That should shut them the hell up.
-SaNo
Ok this opinion might be unpopular here, but the British Government has nothing to apologize about when talking of persecution of Alan Turing. The fact is: Alan Turing broke the law that was on the books at that time. The people knew of Turing's sexual orientation, but he did not have to act on it, if that was against the law.
Are you telling me that, if you lived in a country where your having sex was made illegal, that you would just stop having sex? Seriously? Do you think you could do that? Do you think that the average guy could manage that for any length of time? Because that's what it was. Turing was just a guy, living in a place where having sex with his chosen partner was illegal.
Some laws are just plain unjust. There is absolutely nothing wrong in breaking such laws.
NOW: What British government should apologize for, is persecution of all gays in the UK and the rest of the (now) commonwealth, which includes Alan Turing. The persecution in itself was wrong, not a treatment of the particular individual.
Agreed, both because the persecution in abstract was wrong, and the treatment of the individuals (Turing and the nameless others) was also wrong.
The problem with this attitude is that we don't acknowledge that something was done wrong. Sometimes an apology is all that is needed to mend ties to some wronged group, and then healing can begin. The Mongols and the roman empire are poor examples. No one has memory of the emotional impact of the Mongols and the Roman empire. But there is still plenty of emotions over the european impact over Africa, the middle east, and southeast asia. Hell, a lot of what's going on in those areas, mostly bad things, are a direct result of the actions that were taken by those imperial powers. And yet most governments go along like "Oh really we did something wrong? Well that wasn't my fault that was someone else. I'd never do that to you." Oh really, then why don't you just apologize and get on with life? What, no apology? Gee, I guess you don't think it was wrong huh?
I like the idea that someone else posted that apologies should be given to the entire community, and not just to Alan Turing. Alan in this case is a good poster child.
Western Countries still have plenty of people with lots of illogical hatred. I think that if Britain were to do this it would go a long way to further showing how backward the US is in it's own hatreds. If you tried this in the US there would actually be a huge political backlash. And an apology doesn't have to mean you are weak, an apology just has to mean you were too cruel in the past, and that the government by the people and for the people will try to do better to preserve your basic human rights.
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I go to the same guy - I really wish he'd clean the razor between jobs.
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Cuz I have yet to hear of one ever working in the US...
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The location of the statue is very close to the gay village in Manchester.
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
When Jay Leno shoves a microphone in your face, you know that the only way you're going to get on the air with an outrageous answer. Is it an wonder there are so many outrageous answers?
Has Jay ever shown a segment where everyone shown got the right answer?
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So what if he does know Beckham's first name? Athletic achievement is the lowest common denominator in human achievement and serves to inspire the weak-minded. Need proof? Name me one famous sports figure from the time of Aristotle. Ok, I'll be more generous -- let's go with Galileo. Still nothing? How about Mozart -- that was only a couple hundred years ago! My point is, sports are utterly meaningless and this Beckham character, beloved as he is now, will be utterly forgotten in the next century, where great minds such as Turing will continue to inspire the world as long as there are humans to speak of them.
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Achilles? (Though he couldn't win a foot race with a tortoise, so I don't know how great he was)
Not that I'm a big sports fan, but plenty of people remember sports figures from the last century. Audio and video recording has much to do with that. Mozart, Galileo and Aristotle had the means to record their accomplishments, the athletes of their time did not.
This guy...his shop isn't on Fleet Street, is it?
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
At least the pies are good...
Turing desserves an apology because any security lookup done during wartime certainly had already uncovered this aspect of his personality, but the brits were more than happy to turn a blind eye on it in spite of the already existing laws.
The later prosecution was application of a double standard in this regard.
I've heard of Turing, but did not know about his "persecution" by his own government. These types of things often don't make it into the textbooks, just like over in Europe you probably never heard of the U.S. government's nuclear experiments on non-whites (second-class citizens in the 1950s).
Democracies often kill their best and brightest, simply because they are "odd". The most famous example is Socrates who had committed no crime, but was killed with a simple majority vote by his Athenian neighbors. That's why most modern liberal societies are Not democracies (rule of 51%) but instead Republics (rule of law), in order to protect basic individual rights.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
I agree that apologizing for something that you didn't to to people who are no longer alive doesn't make much sense. I think that John's first suggestion of knighting him is a great idea. It's not an apology; it is honoring him for his tremendous contributions to the country, in spite of the horrible way he was treated.
It has much of the same social benefit that apologizing to him would. He should have been knighted while he was alive, and the only reason he wasn't was because he was gay. Choosing to do so now recognizes this fact and states that we will no longer overlook someone because of their sexuality.
If you want to apologize, apologize to the people who are still living that were put though this garbage. For Turing in particular the important thing is to remember what he accomplished and what he was put through, and officially honoring him is an excellent way to do this.
Your views might not align with that of others. That does not mean that we should consider with different views to us as weak-minded.
I consider athletic achievement on par with intellectual achievements, along with military, monetary and political achievements. Why? Because they are all attained by people who dedicates their life to a single goal. In my view, that is the most important thing.
Now, coming to your view, you have considered only scientists and artists. The point, I guess, being that the world is the way it is now only due to scientific achievements. I disagree on that. Politics and military has played a far far bigger role in shaping the world as we see it now. Again, much of athletic achievements and military achievements go hand in hand. Also, when survival was at stake - which was the case for majority of human existence, athletic capabilities played as big a role as intellectual capabilities. Similar is the case with monetary and artistic achievements too.
I am also more inspired by intellectual achievements than others, but let us not denigrate others based solely on that. Judging others by our morals is not always correct.
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The fact is: Alan Turing broke the law that was on the books at that time.
So did: Oskar Schindler, The Suffragettes, Galileo Galilei, the Founding Fathers of the United States, and Jesus Christ.
Breaking the law is not necessarily a bad thing when you live in an unjust world.
off the top of my head, Milo of Croton (father of weightlifting) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Croton but that was actually 300 years earlier, he was in Pythagoras' time.
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So the Vatican was wrong to apologize for the treatment of Galileo? I mean, Galileo was disobeying edicts of high-ranking church officials, which, in southern Italy at the time, was the law.
As others have pointed out, the Brits were happy to employ Turing, and surely must have known about his personal life. When the war was over, they threw him to the wolves. They were quite happy to ignore the anti-sodomy laws when it suited their needs. So this isn't just a matter of Turing disobeying the laws of the time, it's an issue of the British Government permitting to happen so long as Turing could help them win the war.
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Often, GLBT-issues get completely ignored by the history books.
Here's one that has major implications for the Slashdot crowd: One person was responsible for two of the major revolutions in computing in our era: Lynn Conway, a transgendered individual. Back in the 1960s, "he" worked at IBM, where "he" invented multiple-issue dynamic instruction scheduling, the way-ahead-of-its-time idea of executing multiple instructions at the same time in a single CPU that was to make the performance boom of the late '90s and the '00s possible. Conway was fired by IBM in 1968 for stating her intent to transition from male to female, and had to rebuild her career up from scratch a second time around with a blank slate (starting out as a contractor and building up to ultimately heading the LSI group at Xerox PARC). And from this work, she and Carver Mead invented VSLI -- the Mead and Conway Revolution that lead to the boom of CPU advancements of the '80s.
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