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Apple Pulls C64 Emulator From the App Store

Posted by kdawson on from the brief-shining-moment dept.

Rob Hearn sends in a piece up at PocketGamer.co.uk on why Apple suddenly pulled Manomio's C64 emulator soon after finally approving it. (El Reg has coverage too.) "It was a glorious few moments for retro gamers when Manomio's C64 emulator was finally approved by Apple and released to the eager, nostalgic iPhone public. Then, calamity! It was gone again. Apparently some wily users figured out how to access the Commodore 64 BASIC system that was originally packaged with the emulator — something that Apple wasn't too happy with, given the nature of the interpreter's code. By setting the keyboard to 'always on,' launching a game and restarting BASIC, players got into the 'empty shell' of their C64 emulator."

46 of 580 comments (clear)

  1. And then what? by Jason+daHaus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously? What? What can you do from a C64 shell on an iPhone?

    1. Re:And then what? by Anonymous+Cowar · · Score: 5, Informative

      it probably duplicates core functionality in the loosest sense of the term. I.E. turns it into a "computer" that people can then "use" to "get stuff done". Then BAM! duplicate functionality.

    2. Re:And then what? by babyrat · · Score: 4, Informative

      I believe at least one of the problems is that with access to the basic interpreter could be used to start illegally obtained games.

    3. Re:And then what? by Mechanik · · Score: 5, Funny

      Seriously? What? What can you do from a C64 shell on an iPhone?

      The same thing everyone used to do with the C64 out in front of Radio Shack back in the day...

      10 PRINT "PENIS!!!!!!"
      20 GOTO 10

    4. Re:And then what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The point is you arent allowed to have any sort of dynamic, interpreted code at all. No java, no .net runtime, no assembly interpreter, no scripts, no nothing.

      You see, it opens the door for people to write their own C64 basic phones and run them on the iPhone, without - gasp - Steve Jobs approving, or getting paid! I could write my own "lemonade stand" game, and distribute it, OUTSIDE OF APPLES OFFICIAL CHANNELS?

      THE APPALLING HORROR OF AN OPEN PLATFORM!

      BTW, you can do a whole lot from a c64 shell when you're clever.. You're obviously too young to know.

    5. Re:And then what? by jcr · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, they banned it because they prohibit any language interpreters. What anyone wants to do with those interpreters is beside the point.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    6. Re:And then what? by oldspewey · · Score: 4, Informative

      That was Sears. Radio Shack was where you programmed the TRS-80 in the endless penis loop.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    7. Re:And then what? by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 5, Funny

      Among a certain crowd, that program passes the Turing test.

    8. Re:And then what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, if you want to see what a C64 is capable of, come to
      the Vintage Computer Festival this weekend:

      http://www.vintage.org/2009/east/

      There will be several C64s on exhibit, available for hands on
      experimentation.

    9. Re:And then what? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Funny

      Among a certain crowd, that program passes the Turing test.

      Unlike vagina, penis would certainly pass at least Turing's test.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    10. Re:And then what? by greenguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This summarizes why I don't own an iPhone. They're very slick and all, but I've been spoiled by running Linux for years. The concept of needing someone's approval to run software on my hardware is a non-starter for me. I'll decide that for myself, thanks very much.

      --
      What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
    11. Re:And then what? by MBGMorden · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Format c: didn't apply to the TRS 80 (aka the "Trash 80" as it was often called :)).

      Interestingly enough "way back in the day" when I had my own C64 my aunt had a TRS-80 that she'd bought for my cousins to use. They were older than me by a ways (and only 1 year apart from each other), so they both graduated shortly after the computer was purchased. She ended up just giving the thing to me since I'd been over there to mess with it quite a bit. To a young kid who was already well into geekdom just getting an extra computer back then to play on was just awesome.

      Looking back, no, I didn't like it as much as my Commodore, but it was still fun. One of my best pranks as a kid was to write a BASIC program for that TRS-80 and left sitting in memory. Somehow I coaxed my cousin to run it later and it printed out a nice connection string about connecting to a classified DoD computer and after the two of us spending 10 minutes trying to guess the password (after which I let the correct out just slip out :)) it logged in and started displaying "top secret documents" on how they'd really found aliens on the moon during the Apollo missions. She got freaked out for a while before I finally let her in on the joke. It was kinda fun to live in that age when people were gullible enough to accept ANYTHING that popped up on screen.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    12. Re:And then what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      GEOS runs on most C64 emus so I'd have to guess yes. However, you can only execute the disk images that are available in the appstore. LAME.

      LAME? MP3 encoding on a C64? Cool!

    13. Re:And then what? by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sir, please remove your head from there. Mr. Jobs wishes to turn around without breaking your neck.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    14. Re:And then what? by oldspewey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It was kinda fun to live in that age when people were gullible enough to accept ANYTHING that popped up on screen.

      About 80% of my friends/family still appear to live in that age.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    15. Re:And then what? by Hatta · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, they banned it because they are dickwads. Any reason they give is merely cover for this fact.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    16. Re:And then what? by oodaloop · · Score: 4, Funny

      C'mon now, that's below the belt.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    17. Re:And then what? by StikyPad · · Score: 5, Funny

      It was kinda fun to live in that age when people were gullible enough to accept ANYTHING that popped up on screen.

      Yeah, we're way more savvy these... OHHH, A talking moose wants my credit card number! That's only fair.

      --
      https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
    18. Re:And then what? by dAzED1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it is not your product. You do not own the product, the IP, anything at all to do with the product. You have a "right to use," and that's it. You couldn't take it and reverse-engineer it, replicating it in your own Chinese factories. There are a *lot* of things you know you cannot legally do to it.

      What you can do, however, is unlock the thing and install whatever you want on it. You're not stopped from doing this. The updates don't work well for it, but the updates are for a specific image, and unlocking it changes that image; if I install an nvidia driver for linux and then update my kernel through a normal package manager, guess what? I won't have dual-screen anymore (since I'm using VMs...). So, I have to set up the driver again - just like you would need to unlock the iPhone again if you wanted to install an update. You will not - at all - be at risk of going to jail for unlocking your iPhone. You will not have broken a single law. You won't have even voided the warranty on it. There is *absolutely nothing* stopping you from doing it, so far as civil or criminal activities are concerned, if you want to do it. Which means, if you want to complain...it's because you merely want to complain.

      The sense of entitlement in the newer OSS community members is just...sickening, really. I don't go burning down butcher shops because I'm vegetarian. A valid complain about the iPhone is the poor performance of the 3g network and the poor lifespan of the battery. But the rest of it? Just childish.

      Mod me -3 troll again if you like, mods - but the "insightful" people saying they want everything and anything for free and without limitations...well, those are the trolls, imnsho. You get an iPhone...it is NOT YOUR PRODUCT. To say that...wow. Yeah.

    19. Re:And then what? by Froboz23 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Honestly I think the vast 99.8 % majority of folks could really care less about a C64 emulator on an iPhone.

      The market seems to think otherwise. From TFA:

      "The developer is now hard at work setting up a meeting with Apple to clarify matters and get C64 back to the retro gaming public who put the app in the top 20 paid games list across most territories inside of two days, and even made it into the top 10 in certain areas before disappearing."

      You'd be hard pressed to show me an iPhone App that's more fun than M.U.L.E.

      --
      Take off every Sig. For great justice.
  2. Same thing we do every night Pinky by wiredog · · Score: 4, Funny

    Try to take over the world.

    --

    Best Slashdot Co
  3. The n900 cometh... by Kirin+Fenrir · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For technophiles, the iPhone is dead. The n900, with it's Debian-based-OS and open platform, is our new lord and savior. http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/

    --
    Caffeine is my anti-drug!

    Duranin - A NWN2 Roleplaying Persistent World
    1. Re:The n900 cometh... by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unlike the iPhone though, that's the whole cost. The iPhone's "real" price is buried in the mandatory contract. Outside of the U.S., you don't have a phone bundled with the plan, but the plan itself is cheaper. So yes, it costs $650 (or equivalent local currency), but the plan only runs $20-40/month, not $60-70/month. Over two years, you will have paid quite a bit more for the iPhone. And if you choose not to upgrade after two years, the savings over the iPhone accrue even faster.

      --
      $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
    2. Re:The n900 cometh... by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Informative

      I assume you speak of the successor to my n810? ... you'll not be making any calls from it.

      I assume you can't follow a link. The N900 is indeed a phone, quad band to boot.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:The n900 cometh... by rysiek · · Score: 5, Informative

      two words for you: "root access".

      on Android you have to bend over backwards to gain it (unless there is a fsckup with text message editor, heh); on maemo its:
      $ sudo gainroot
      #

      Android is almost as closed as iPhone...

    4. Re:The n900 cometh... by whisper_jeff · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your post reminds me of the hundreds of "the iPod is dead, here is its successor" posts that I read back in the day.

      I'm just sayin'.

  4. C64 BASIC too powerful to be safe by bzzfzz · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I would have laughed if you told me, back in the day, that future device makers would go to great lengths to lock out C64 BASIC so that users could use it to build applications that were so powerful that important third parties would be afraid. I know it's Turing-complete, but still.

    I have never been much of a believer in Stallman's dystopian visions but I'm getting closer to believing them.

    1. Re:C64 BASIC too powerful to be safe by jpmorgan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The computing world never turned into quite the dystopia that some feared, because the vertical integrators were mostly killed. Now, in the past I couldn't really care what Apple did because they were always a niche platform. But some disclosure: I hate the iPhone, I want it to die, or at least lose its dominant position. If the future of mobile computing is dominated by a company like Apple, then it's a bleak future. Say what you will about Microsoft's domination of the desktop, but they were never draconian like this.

      In the past being a Windows dev was compared to serfdom. If that's true, then what's being an iPhone developer like?

  5. Re:RUN by ArbitraryDescriptor · · Score: 5, Funny

    10 PRINT "HELLO, WORLD!"

    Banned: Duplicates text display functionality.

  6. Imagine a future.... by Danathar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Where the C64 emulator becomes THE preferred programming environment on the iphone as Apple neglects to understand the nature of the threat...causing a renisannce in C64 programming; catapulting a once dead platform from the grave back into stardom...

  7. Apple tries REALLY hard... by IllForgetMyNickSoonA · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As it seems, Apple tries REALLY hard to surpass Microsoft on the list of the most hated IT companies. This stunt they just pulled with the C64 emulator is pure idiocy!

    1. Re:Apple tries REALLY hard... by Ohio+Calvinist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The issue is that if they allow this application, they'll have a harder time justifying denying other applications using interpreted languages. That seems like a non-story to me. Everyone has known from the beginning that that was the case, and that the reason was that if they allowed it, there would be no way of controlling it.

      However what I do think is interesting is that they'd allow any emulator at all. Particularly one whose games all depend upon an interpreted language. I'm primarily surprised because of the possibility that someone might be able to get unauthorized apps to run under it, not to mention any liability (real or assumed) a plantiff might try to claim if the emulator ran their code illegally and that Apple rubber stamped it knowing the possibility. Emulators have always been in that sort of gray-area. Apple is more than just the device manufacturer, all apps through the app-store have them functioning as a distributor.

      --
      Forgive my spelling from time to time. I'm often posting during short breaks.
    2. Re:Apple tries REALLY hard... by bennomatic · · Score: 5, Informative

      Particularly one whose games all depend upon an interpreted language

      C64 games typically were not written in BASIC, as the performance of BASIC sucked. Only the cheesiest type-it-in-yourself games were implemented this way.

      Most games were written in 6510 assembly, which was a very simple label-abstraction above 6510 machine language. Basically, the "assembling" process just changed the commands, like 'JSR' (jump to subroutine) to their binary equivalents (in this case, 00010000), and made sure that all two-byte numbers were big-endian. So JSR $FFD2, the command to print a byte to the screen became (in decimal) 032 210 255.

      Some assemblers were a little more advanced, with macros and the like so you could label a subroutine and it would substitute the appropriate register address, but I never believed in those. I edited my code directly to the bits, damn it!

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
  8. Apple is worse than Microsoft by etymxris · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When it comes to proprietary lock-in. Styling and hype is much more exciting than philosophical and economical arguments for having an open platform. I encourage anyone with appreciation of these issues to boycott closed platforms like the iPhone, consoles, and set top cable boxes.

  9. You don't understand by jpmorgan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Spur an interest in programmable platforms and maybe get people interested in being more than just a passive consumer of whatever crap Apple wants to shovel at them through iTunes.

  10. Just Silliness by Pitr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I submit that anyone that conceivable _could_ do any damage of any significant nature through the BASIC interpreter on a C64 emulator on an iPhone has almost certainly already jail broken their phone and are already doing much wackier things. Further, if they haven't, then this provides further incentive to jailbreak.

    Add to that the PR nightmare of constantly pulling the same app repeatedly, and it should make both users and developers feel increasingly gun shy about the app store.

    --

    --Not to be worried, Pitr fix.
    1. Re:Just Silliness by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I submit that anyone that conceivable _could_ do any damage of any significant nature through the BASIC interpreter on a C64 emulator on an iPhone has almost certainly already jail broken their phone and are already doing much wackier things.

      Apple doesn't care if you jailbreak your own phone. That poses no risk. They care if you write arbitrary code that can be used to hack phones that aren't jailbroken. Thus, no applications that execute arbitrary code from other sources. It's the rule they made and developers have to stick to, even if in this case it is unlikely to be too serious.

      The reasons for this are twofold:

      First, they don't want people running an interpreter and installing apps on top of it, because one new app that runs on top, which Apple does not have an opportunity to test, could violate Apple's agreement with AT&T or break out of the sandbox and install malware. At that point Apple has to disable a whole swath of programs to stop one noncompliant or malicious program.

      Second, Apple doesn't want any runtimes becoming critical components of the iPhone. They don't want Java or .Net or a DOS emulator with intellectual property out of Apple's control to become a Gatekeeper for any significant number of applications on the IPhone. Apple wants to be the only gatekeeper and it's up to the buyer to decide if that is a good thing, a bad thing, or a mix of both.

  11. I know why this happened by TiggertheMad · · Score: 5, Funny

    They are still bitter that C64 games were better than Apple ][e games back in the day...

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
  12. Looks like... by zr-rifle · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...they learned how to jailbreak their Commodore 64 too...

    --
    Hack your mind out of its sandbox.
  13. The Point? by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 4, Funny

    "By setting the keyboard to 'always on', launching a game and restarting BASIC, players got into the 'empty shell' of their C64 emulator."
    ---

    Next thing you know they'll block my app that allows users to connect a cassette tape drive. The nerve....

  14. Re:Because...... by Danathar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Um...the coding of C64 software was ALL ABOUT using peek and poke in unintended ways!

  15. Apple Hates Geeks by popo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No seriously. Apple hates geeks. This isn't flamebait, btw.

    Apple loves the image-conscious, visual-creative crowd that accepts the functionality they're given, wrapped up in beautifully designed packages.

    But ultimately Apple's corporate strategy can be summed up in one word: Control. They want to control where you buy your music, what you do with your devices, and how you interact with other users. All of this 'control' of course is driven by profit motives.

    But geeks ultimately represent a loss of control. Geeks love to tinker... They love to expand functionality. They're innovators. And worst of all from Apple's perspective: They create options.

    Options are the enemy of a carefully structured system which drives users towards Apple's sacred points-of-purchase.

    Options are the opposite of 'control'.

    For all of Apple's "Think Different" public image, the reality is that Apple encourages nothing of the sort: "Think Alike" is the mission. And they prove it at every turn.

    Apple fanboys will probably mod this flamebait. It isn't. I have multiple computers and phones, and own an iPhone and a Mac. But I'm constantly being made aware that my PC represents a nearly infinite amount of options in every usage category -- where Apple railroads me into a pre-approved (albeit always compatible) solution.

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    1. Re:Apple Hates Geeks by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No seriously. Apple hates geeks. This isn't flamebait, btw.

      No, not flamebait, just idiocy. Apple is largely made of geeks. I find it hard to find a more apt description of a former NextStep employee or a former BSD developer or the guy who wrote and maintains CUPS.

      But ultimately Apple's corporate strategy can be summed up in one word: Control.

      Actually, Apple's strategy with regard to both the iPod and iPhone has been about limited, but polished functionality. Blackberry has been all about providing the most and most varied functionality. Apple has been about providing a limited subset of that functionality, but polished so it is really, really easy. In order to do that, and maintain that for submissions from others, they maintain significant control; but that is not the core philosophy.

      I would note that this strategy is not one designed to cater to geeks. That is certainly not their target market and if you are a hardcore geek you might be happier using a product that does cater to your market segment. There are lots of other options. Go for it.

      For all of Apple's "Think Different" public image, the reality is that Apple encourages nothing of the sort: "Think Alike" is the mission. And they prove it at every turn.

      I'd actually say Apple does think differently. Their business model has been different from what others have tried and it has worked for them quite well. It just hasn't targeted you. Get over it.

      For their Mac computers, on the other hand, Apple has been targeting geeks pretty heavily and it has worked. Look around at Blackhat or Defcon or any technology related conference and the truth is evident. OS X developers (some of whom are also iPhone developers) are geeks and they target geeks in OS X. That's why they have a bash shell. That's why they pulled in UI features from X11 to make the UNIX geeks looking to switch happy. Normal users don't care about or use multiple desktops and never drop to a shell. That's just for geeks. I know a few people at Apple. One used to work for Cray doing OS development. He's about as big of a geek as you can imagine.

      Apple fanboys will probably mod this flamebait. It isn't. I have multiple computers and phones, and own an iPhone and a Mac. But I'm constantly being made aware that my PC represents a nearly infinite amount of options...

      It's funny because you did not provide even one example of how the PC provides more options than your Mac... something rather critical to your premise, no?

  16. Nonstory by MBCook · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a non-story. They weren't allowed to sell the app because it had BASIC. They snuck BASIC in, and Apple pulled it since they weren't allowed to sell it.

    This is not news.

    We don't need the "Apple should allow..." discussion. We had that 2 days ago when this was approved. And the last app that did something. And two before. And the next one.

    This isn't a story. "Apple does exactly what it said it would." Call CNN.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  17. Re:What a dumbass by Renderer+of+Evil · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah, I agree. The developer is a grade-A moron. Initially, the App was rejected because of this and after lots of back and forth Apple approved it with a condition of removing the BASIC interpreter. Developer thought it would be cute to hide, and make it available as an easter egg. Guess that plan backfired.

    Without a doubt, they needlessly burned a lot of money because of lost potential sales. Apple might even return the favor by dragging its feet and not approving the app for weeks or months.

  18. Get a real smartphone. by argent · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you want a versatile, easy to use, high end phone, but don't want more than that, get an iPhone. If you want a real smartphone, get a real smartphone. If Apple doesn't want to sell a general purpose smart handheld, that's their prerogative. There's plenty of options right now.