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Risk Aversion At Odds With Manned Space Exploration

Several readers including tyghe!! sent in a Popular Mechanics piece analyzing the Augustine Commission's recommendations and NASA itself in terms of a persistent bias towards risk aversion, and arguing that such a bias is fundamentally incompatible with the mission of opening a new frontier. "Rand Simberg, a former aerospace engineer finds the report a little too innocuous. In this analysis, Simberg asks, what happens when we take the risk out of space travel? ... Aerospace pioneer Burt Rutan said a few years ago that if we're not killing people, we're not pushing hard enough. That might sound harsh to people outside the aerospace community but, as Rutan knows, test pilots and astronauts are a breed of people that willingly accepts certain risk in order to be part of great endeavors. They're volunteers and they know what they're getting into."

20 of 371 comments (clear)

  1. Misses the point by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 4, Informative

    Missing the point.

    NASA execs used to claim the chances of a bad Shuttle accident were 1 in 10,000.

    That's obviously crazy-- you'd have to shoot one up every day for 30 years to get even an unreliable estimate of that level of risk.

    Feynman asked around, and the actual engineers estimated 1 in 100 to 1 in 200.

    So a better question is, do the astronauts have a right to hear the CORRECT figures, not the wild wishful-thinking executive estimates?

    1. Re:Misses the point by 2.7182 · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you read Feynman's book he actually interviewed on exec. or engineer at NASA who said the chances of catastrophic failure were 1 in 100,000. Feynman pointed out that that this was like flying the space shuttle every day for 300 years without an accident.

    2. Re:Misses the point by Ukab+the+Great · · Score: 4, Interesting

      According to this article your lifetime chance of dying in a car crash is 1 in 83.

      Per-person odds, I'd take a one-time shuttle ride over a lifetime of driving.

    3. Re:Misses the point by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So a better question is, do the astronauts have a right to hear the CORRECT figures, not the wild wishful-thinking executive estimates?

      What makes you think they aren't aware of the true risks of what's involved? Who else would be in a better position to know them? I've always assumed the drivel that comes out of the NASA execs is intended for public consumption. The astronauts themselves are aware of what they are getting into.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:Misses the point by palegray.net · · Score: 4, Funny

      What if a spacecraft fails to launch properly and lands on your car while you're in it?

    5. Re:Misses the point by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      People need to stop and think a little. Back in the 1400's and 1500's when people were exploring the world, who went out? Was it the candy asses? Did the mama's boys go forth? The fruit cakes who dressed up as dandies to hang around a court yard in some dank castle? Of course not.

      I can write paragraphs badmouthing old Chris Columbus, and the conquistadors who put much of Latin America to the torch, raping, murdering, and plundering. Paragraphs? Hell, I could write books! But, despite that, they were badass mofos. Yeah, they had a lot of luck on their side, not to mention some slightly advanced technology, germ warfare was on their side, and they had better warfare strategies and tactics. But, they were badasses, willing to put their lives on the line.

      The same goes for all the other settlers who came to the new world. Candy asses and sissies who counted the risk assessment beans stayed at home, or at least waited many years for the real bad asses to create a safe place for them.

      Today? Phhht.

      I put my faith in SpaceX and places like China to put man into space. The US government has to many bean counters who won't risk losing a few beans.

      I've said it before, I'll repeat it here. I'll haul my ass up onto that rocket making a one-way trip to Mars. Light that big bastard off, and send me on my way. You would do better to send a younger man - but if you can't find one with the balls to go, I'm ready. Just send the equipment and supplies necessary for the job, and I'll put in a few years work, trying to find a reason that convinces the candy asses that it is worth sending a colony to Mars.

      Don't worry about any silly assed funeral when I finally croak - when the time comes, I'll drop my drawers and lie face down in plain site of the earth. Those who count will remember me - and the rest can kiss my ass.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    6. Re:Misses the point by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Interesting

      >>>The US government has to many bean counters who won't risk losing a few beans.

      And yet they spend ~2000 billion on bank bailouts, corporate bailouts, and "stimulus" bills without even reading the fucking laws. I thought it was funny when Conyers said, "People keep saying read the bill. Have you seen the bill? It's over 1000 pages long and requires two lawyers sitting by my side to explain what it means! We don't have time to read the bill. We need to get it passed."

      So they just vote "aye" and hope for the best. I'm sure if they can spend all that, without even knowing what they are spending it on, they can spare 0.1 billion for NASA each year.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    7. Re:Misses the point by StevePole · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fact that the shuttle has been up for 1300 days is kind of irrelevant, I'm sure it's not much of a consolation to the Columbia astronauts that there was no failure in the first 15 days of their mission! The relevant statistic is failures per mission, that sits at about 1 in 65 (131 flights, 2 failure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_program).

    8. Re:Misses the point by S.O.B. · · Score: 5, Informative

      amazingly, Columbia and Challenger launched on the same day in February like 20 years apart...go figure

      I'll assume you were repeating something someone else said but next time try a quick internet search before passing it on.

      Both missions where Challenger and Columbia were destroyed were launched in January not February.
      The launches were 17 not 20 years apart.
      They were not launched on the same day. (Challenger launched on Jan 28, 1986, Columbia launched on Jan 16, 2003)

      http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/archives/sts-51L.html
      http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/archives/sts-107.html

      --
      Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
    9. Re:Misses the point by thesandtiger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that trained astronauts with advanced degrees in usually scientific fields are probably about as capable of figuring out the statistical chances of a fatal mission as people on slashdot are.

      Call me crazy, but I'm assuming that NASA isn't lobotomizing their astronauts.

      People take risks because to them, the payout for the risk is greater than the potential downside. For astronauts, obviously, the benefits of doing missions are greater than the pitfalls of dying on missions. You can doubt their wisdom in making those choices, but I think you're being a bit absurd if you think they aren't aware of or capable of figuring out the numbers.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
  2. Risk aversion stems from funding sources by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IMHO, a big reason why NASA spends so much time on risk aversion is the fickle, uneducated, uninformed and misinformed nature of who they get their funding from aka Congress. I offer into evidence the fact that McGovern wanted desperately to kill off Apollo after the Apollo 1 fire. Traditional market-based sources of funding can evaporate after a major disaster but there will always be people who believe in the mission statement and they don't change with the political winds.

    1. Re:Risk aversion stems from funding sources by Zantac69 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Spot on - but you are forgetting the other "fickle, uneducated, uninformed and misinformed" gorilla in the room - and that is the American public. If you look back at ANYTHING in the past that cost a lot of lives - it would never have happened if the American public was full "informed" as to the real cost of lives. To John/Jane Q Public, lives should only be risked if John/Jane's arses are on the line - maintaining the status quo but never for advancement.

      Space exploration and innovation is something that is far too important to be left in the hands of the "American public" or Congress.

      --
      1331461 is only semiprime *sigh* Alas - I am just short of 1337.
  3. It's not just NASA by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    American society is risk averse to pathological levels in general.

  4. Life is terminal by NoYob · · Score: 5, Insightful
    That might sound harsh to people outside the aerospace community but, as Rutan knows, test pilots and astronauts are a breed of people that willingly accepts certain risk in order to be part of great endeavors.

    After reading about some of those guys, if you made the program too safe, they'd take up free climbing or something else to get the rush. The possibility of dying early gives it that rush.

    We're such a death phobic society - no wonder terrorists can just flinch and send us into girly girl panics.

    --
    It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
  5. Re:So, let's kill em all? Only way to be sure by Dareth · · Score: 5, Funny

    The only way to be sure to "kill em all" is to nuke them from orbit, but that requires a Space Program.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  6. Lives are risked for things much less important by dm513 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If manned space exploration is too dangerous...What about all the spectator sports and events that risk human life for no reward other than the thrill?...and maybe a lot of money. NASCAR racing is incredibly dangerous...Skydiving is dangerous...What about "the running of the bulls?"...People get killed playing baseball!...And none of the people taking these risks is getting us any closer to the moon or any other celestial destination... Men and women climb mountains and dive deep into the seas looking for adventure...Why then is manned space exploration too dangerous? It is expensive and dangerous going somewhere faraway in a new way first...No matter whether it's on the Earth or in the sky...The explorers who "found" the new world knew this...How now can it be so hard for us to accept?

  7. War vs. New Frontiers, or: What's wrong with us? by yogibaer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I find it most astounding that once it comes to manned space missions governments start whining about the risk for life and limb of the volunteers and the enormous costs involved. Whereas the same governments have no problems whatsoever to put close to half a million citizens at risk in various wars around the globe (remind me please, what is the purpose of the Iraq War again?) The campaign in Iraq alone would have paid for missions to moon and mars and back again including a hot spa and an acre of green grass for the various habitats. Add to that all the money that is poured in smart weaponry and the next best way to blast a target from (or in) orbit and a sizable population could live on Mars before the century is over. Somehow the world is upside down and we have totally lost our bearings. Let the terrorists rot in the holes they dug for themselves and lets do something useful for a change. Heal the planet, feed the people, solve the energy problem and lets colonize our own back yard. That should keep us happily occupied for the next 200 years. OUR future is out there not that of bunch of tin cans with shiny wheels and solar panels.

  8. Exactly by lymond01 · · Score: 5, Funny

    My half elven paladin has exactly the same thinking as an astronaut. He knows the risks. He knows that no matter how many elixirs of healing he brings, no matter whether his friend Drugar the Troll Barbarian is sober or not, things might go south. You think you're raiding an underground goblin camp, you open that door and BAM! Red frickin' dragon. Not much you can do about a red dragon at close range except poor some good ol' A1 steak sauce on yourself to make a worthwhile meal.

    Sometimes you rummage around in your sack for treasure and it turns out to be a bag of devouring. That's all I'm sayin'.

  9. Depends on the "Purpose" by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    but you are forgetting the other "fickle, uneducated, uninformed and misinformed" gorilla in the room - and that is the American public.

    But this gets back to the "purpose" of manned missions. If manned missions are merely a PR stunt or a prestige tool, then dead astronauts are not going to help that cause. Remote robots are a safer and cheaper way to do science. I don't accept the argument that you need an on-site human to spot rocks. Until the rocks are examined by lab equipment, nobody knows whats really in them anyhow.

    I propose that the primary goal be to learn[1] about space colonization, and a perm moon-base is a good place to start. They would be space pioneers, and everyone knows pioneers risk arrows in their backs. This is a role Americans can relate to and would accept risk for because our ancestors faced the same situation. (Even "Native Americans" made a risky migration out of Asia. There are no true "Native Americans".)

    [1] We are a long way off from self-sufficient colonies, but you have to start somewhere.

  10. Re:I wonder by copponex · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You've got it backwards.

    Mass transit isn't profitable because it's efficient. Solar power isn't profitable because coal isn't properly taxed for the amount of damage it does to the ecosystem, or when a slurry wall fails and kills a few hundred people directly. Batteries are expensive because the cost of maintaining hegemony in the Middle East is hidden in our defense budget, and not tacked on to the price of a gallon of gas.

    There are many things that the market is piss poor at valuing. There are many services better considered as infrastructure than as a luxury, like transportation, health care, electricity, and telecommunications. That's why when you look across the world, large state sectors dominate economically. They have spread out the cost and benefits of this infrastructure, and raised the standard of living for everyone. Weak states, where the market has no boundaries, perform very poorly in comparison. They are subject to more devastating economic cycles, corruption, monopoly practices, and so on.

    There is no need to engage in philosophical debates. You can simply look at the economic history of the last thirty years, and compare America to Canada, England, France, and Germany. America now has the highest unemployment, worst income inequality, pays the most portion for basic services, transportation, health care, and education. Our savings have evaporated. The dollar only holds value as far as China is willing to lend us money. We have no way to create things that other people want to buy because we don't have a manufacturing sector. The leftover bits of prosperity from the postwar period will not last forever.

    This is not progress. In fact, the cost of doing business has gone up so much that there is now "political support" - meaning, some corporate support - for health care reform after 30 years of majority support for a single payer system. A market, properly calibrated by regulation, can do amazing things when it increases competition. Remove the corrective effects of good governance, and it turns into a nightmare.