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Congress Mulls Research Into a Vehicle Mileage Tax
BJ_Covert_Action writes to let us know that an Oregon congressman has filed legislation to spend $154.5M for a research project into tracking per-vehicle mileage in the US, and asks: "Do we really want the government to track our movement and driving habits on a regular basis?" "US Representative Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon) introduced H.R. 3311 earlier this year to appropriate $154,500,000 for research and study into the transition to a per-mile vehicle tax system... Oregon has successfully tested a Vehicle Miles Traveled fee... the [Oregon] report urged a mandate for all drivers to install GPS tracking devices that would report driving habits to roadside RFID scanning devices." Here is the bill (PDF). The article notes that the congressman's major corporate donors would likely benefit with contracts if such a program were begun.
I thought the Republicans were the evil ones trying to take our rights away... weird.
Can't they just read an odometer
Isn't that what the Federal Gasoline tax does?
With the RFID hacking efforts, one could potentially change the identification number so that your car reported its mileage on another vehicle. Then some old fart is wondering why he's paying thousands in taxes when he just drives from home to the pharmacy and the occasional trip to the local buffet restaurant.
Why do number of miles driven matter? I'd think the central concern is wear on roads, which is also dependent on the weight of the vehicle. So they want to charge based on weight*miles. Guess what? A vehicle's gasoline usage is closely related to this; big heavy vehicle, more gasoline used per mile. So they could just increase the gasoline tax.
Quite a few states have emissions testing every year or every other year. Make them get a sticker that also has the mileage. The next year, you figure out the difference. Pay the tax. Odometer fails it's the same as if ODB readiness fails.
How often are these RFID checkpoints going to fail? Devices fall off cars, etc.
Let me guess, there's a GPS tracking company in someones district.
Anything more than an odometer or fuel tax doesn't pass the smell test.
GPS could only add value for law enforcment and automating speeding tickets.
Are they planning on buying everyone a GPS device because I just don't see how this study can cost $154.5 Million
You want us to give The Man complete GPS records of all driving?
Am I the only one who finds that terrifying?
ass fucking every member of congress with a flame thrower
I'm not particularly opposed to an tax on my odometer, but GPS is way over the line. You want to know how much I drive? Fine. You want to know where I drive? Fuck off.
Besides, the gasoline tax is already a mileage tax. It has the added bonus of being a bigger burden on those who drive low efficiency vehicles.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Brilliant Idea. Cause if we want to levy more taxes on the people that drive more, we need to track every car and build an extensive system of RFID scanners that covers the nation.
Of course every car already has a mileage based tracker build in. Its called the gas tank. You simply raise the gas tax, and you're done. In the process you also reward people with fuel efficient cars, and you make it easier for alternative fuels and electric cars to be competitive.
I suppose higher gas taxes have no lobby, while the RFID industry obviously has one. /sigh
Since related articles were omitted for this story... For previous discussion on slashdot, please check here.
:)
Please feel free to read that discussion and put your copypasta in this thread so we all know not to mod them up.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
HELL NO.
The problem with socialism is that they always run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher
Or they could pass a resolution that all fuel tax is used only for road-related projects.
Since this does nothing relevant that gasoline taxation doesn't already do, one can presume that it is intended as a tracking device.
If this is actually introduced, it will sooner or later be used to track down some horrible terrorist/paedophile on the run, and no one will object. The next year, it'll be available to track down whoever they want to track down, and if attitudes wiretapping are anything to go by, they won't need a warrant. Lucky it's such a blindingly stupid idea that they'll never actually implement it, right?
Right?
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
Recycle Congress.
How the fuck can ANY study cost $154,500,000 That's one hundred and fifty four million, five hundred thousand dollars. I don't care WHAT they're proposing. A traffic STUDY with that kind of price tag should get a resounding and unanimous "FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING FUCKS!" from anyone voting on it.
I normally don't use so much profanity on slashdot but it's not like I can get any more obscene than what's being proposed.
The state legislatures are getting in a lather over the idea that gas-electric hybrids will reduce their gas-tax-based state income. It's all rather reminiscent of the year 2000 panic over computer glitches - based in a sliver of truth, but WAAAAY overestimated. They're looking to use these mileage-based taxes as a way to future-proof, but as you mentioned, the better solution is to just increase gas taxes proportionally with the fraction of gas being used thanks to improved technology, so revenue can keep up with increased expenses, while keeping the burden on those who do the most practical use, rather than taxing a hybrid the same as a cement truck.
Ryan Fenton
Insisting that the gov't spend the gas tax money they collect for roads, to pay to repair roads instead of funneling it off to pet projects that have nothing to do with roads.
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Can't seem to evade these cops, it's almost like they've got a tracking device on me....
You mean to tell me Mr. Officer, that you're giving me a ticket for speeding two weeks ago?
I'm being taxed on miles traveled after I was taxed for the price of having my car towed? It was a flatbed, the tires didn't touch the ground!
Wow, I've never seen 15 minute parking enforced so timely and yet so viciously...they've got tow-trucks lined up around the corner just waiting...
Then put the tax on tires. You can't roll back the odometer on a tire.
Best regards.
I sure miss the Bush Administration / Republican controlled congress because it at least paid lip service to personal freedoms.
Now lets see:
*We are likely to end up with GPS in our cars
*A 3400-3800 dollar tax for existing
*Still likely to have some form of national ID forced on us
*There is no end in sight to the invasive personal information searches for air travelers
*Our financial records are going to accessible to *any* government agency that can claim some relationship to your health care no matter how obscure.
Any notion this is a free society is rapidly evaporating. I know I am going to get reams of replies about how Americans are still so much more free than X; but that is not the point! Its not about being freer than someone else or better than, its about being the freest society we can be. Frankly our government is drifting down the road of some type of neo-fascist totalitarian system. Its a long way from something you could describe that way but the seeds are being planted and the garden tended. This is very similar to how the Third Reich got its start, and no I am not saying Obama is anything like Hitler, what I am saying is that he and the current congressional majority are creating the conditions where an Hitler or a Bonaparte can find support and come to power.
I fully expect to be walking down the street in the next ten years and hearing the equivalent of "Papers please" pretty often the way things are going..
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
MOD PARENT UP, not down.
Fraud Alert: This is my best understanding. This is a new part of a very old effort. I remember protesting it many years ago.
There is some company in Oregon that expects to sell the equipment that would track miles. Quote from the article: "Honeywell International, for example, is a major manufacturer RFID equipment. The company also happens to be the second biggest contributor in the current cycle to Blumenauer's Political Action Committee..."
The mileage-tracking would download data remotely, using the same radio wave band used by wi-fi, or close. Every car would have the new equipment. A little aluminum foil over your car's antenna would stop the functioning of the system.
Quote from the article referenced by Slashdot: "... the report urged a mandate for all drivers to install GPS tracking devices that would report driving habits to roadside Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) scanning devices." How long would it be until a hacker reported that his vehicle was in Canada? Maybe, "Oh, yes, yesterday I was driving in the Kamchatka peninsula, after a long trip around the moon."
The biggest problem is that even the study would be extremely expensive for taxpayers ("... $154,500,000 for research and study into the transition to a per-mile vehicle tax system...") The second biggest problem is that buying the equipment would make Blumenauer's friends rich and taxpayers poor. The third problem is that it wouldn't work. There would be many, many failures in the equipment.
If that is true, it is fraud, an attempt to profit by using government power to do something bad for everyone, and US Representative Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon) should be recalled as soon as possible, and barred from ever again participating in politics.
Often the actions of the U.S. government seem shockingly corrupt.
Someone would get the money, "$154,500,000 for research and study", even if no working system were produced.
Well, since gps in phones are killing the GPS makers, they needed to find a reason to start selling them again.
Correct. I'm pretty sure any gasoline taxes you pay while this system is in effect will be applied as Gas Tax Credits. Provided you keep your receipts you will most likely be able to claim these when filing your taxes.
Oh wait - that's unconstitutional and will just transform the US into a communist country like the PRK.
This really can't be anything more than a massive government boondoggle. I blame this idea on american voters who think that the gas tax is the devil. The money for roads has to come from somewhere, and if the gas tax isn't doing it, it will come through some other tax.
Personally, I think gas is too cheap anyway. Raise the gas tax on gasoline, and you'll see an explosion in public transportation, fuel-efficient cars, etc. Yeah, there'll be an initial hit on transportation business. But if the tax is raised incrementally, it can be done slow enough to keep up with improvements in fuel-efficient technologies.
Then again, I don't expect politicians to stand for this, nor for enough voters to understand the concept.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
What if everyone started telecommuting? Would they then charge a tax for working at home?
Better a gas tax AND a hefty graduated annual excise tax on oversize trucks and SUVs with poor mileage. Make it simple, say, $200/year for every MPG under the mandated 35MPG average. Want to drive that 12MPG Excursion or F-350? Fine. That's $4,600 a year, please.
Hope the overcompensaion was worth it.
The average European family does just fine with compact cars like Fiats and VWs. If they can do it, then so can the average US family. (Of course, the average US family may need to go on a diet first. But then again, that will improve mileage too!)
Seriously, According to the U.S. Department of Energy, we burn roughly 400 million gallons of gasoline day-in and day-out. And roughly 60% of all of the petroleum consumed was imported, with 13% coming from the middle east (shipping is easier from SA). Finally, from 2000 to 2007, the US new fleet fuel economy has averaged 23.1 mpg, with light trucks and SUVs making up about 40% of the vehicles on the road.
So, LTs and SUVs make up 40%, but since their mileage sucks they burn 55-60% of the fuel. Replace SUVs, and we immediately save 120 million gallons each and every day, cut imports by 30%, and IMMEDIATELY and totally cut our need for Middle Eastern oil.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Why do you limit your frustration to Democrats?
Republicans are evil also, they're just louder and dumber about it. Democrats are smarter and stealthier.
There's a reason that Vampires infest pop culture when Democrats are in power, and Zombies when Republicans are in office.
Government is the problem. Down with the undead.
-FL
No you don't. How are you using the word "legitimate"?
If you mean lawful, well then that is bullshit. It used to be lawful to own black people as slaves. Forgive the hyperbole, but a laws are not intrinsically ethical, moral, fair, etc. If a law is unjust then it is my duty to perform civil disobedience. The idea that I should follow all laws and use the "approved" channels to change it is is insanity. When those "approved" channels are tightly controlled and effectively blockaded, by only remedy IS civil disobedience to the point I can attempt another avenue, which is the judicial process. Sometimes change can only occur through a litigation vehicle. Most bullshit does not get changed through lobbying, but through court processes in which laws are found to be unconstitutional. In order for that to happen though, someone has to be harmed by that law first .
Now if you mean genuine, which is another definition of legitimate, you cannot possibly know that. Additionally, tin foil aside, the actions of the U.S government have demonstrated a complete disregard for our rights to privacy, anonymity, etc. What about the scandal with the telcos, the NSA, and phone records? That has less media attention now, but they got away with it.
It is quite reasonable for me to believe the worst intentions with this GPS data as my government has already demonstrated an intense desire to possess this information and use it for intelligence gathering purposes. My government has also demonstrated a concerning pattern of abuse of it's citizens in the last 100 years for sociopolitical reasons. Hoover is well known to have hated Martin Luther King and to have abused his power to illegally monitor a U.S Citizen because of conflicting ideologies and political beliefs. MLK was just one of many and Hoover has not been the only government official to abuse their position of power.
With all due respect, you cannot state you know the government has no intentions of spying on us. Your usage of the word tin foil is also offensive (mildly). You do not need to denigrate and disrespect those of us that have good and legitimate reasons to fear this government. If you are an activist working against unjust laws and corruption, or are a whistleblower, you have good reason to fear the apparent conspiracy between corporations, government officials, and our legislators. All three entities possess a non-trivial amount of power and influence over our lives and there are examples in which political activists have been targeted and powers abused.
Your point is logical and reasonable about how a GPS is required to tax mileage. Of course an odometer will not work in this situation at all. I agree GPS is required. However, I think the real argument comes down to whether or not I want a presumably more fair and efficient method of tax collection (ostensibly to provide me with a well working infrastructure) while also risking the government permanently recording my movements and then later using that against me.
Personally, I fear the government's actions with the data more than my concerns over an unfair and less efficient method of taxing vehicle usage. We can come up with different, more passive methods of tax collection. THAT is not tin foil speaking, Sir. Not at all.
The gas tax has no real away around it. Really hard to cheat then its built in to the price of gas.
You put control of the taxation in the hands of the car owner and they will cheat.
RFID?
-Just pop the transponder in the microwave for 2 seconds.. no proof of tamper.
-Swap transponders with a car you don't drive much.
-Clone transponder.
GPS gizmo?
-Hit gizmo with a cheap tazer or ignition coil.. "Maybe my car got hit by lighting?"
-Cover antenna with tinfoil before you leave...dont let it get a lock anywhere but your driveway.
-Fuses blow out sometimes ya know..
Odometer check?
-Unhook speedo cable or magnetic pickup. Ill just use my GPS-Nav unit to tell me my speed.
-Swap dash clusters
-Bribe the meter readers.
etc...
You drive a new car with the odometer embedded in the ECU? No big deal.
"Tuners" hack and mess with their computers on new cars all the time.. would take about 1.4days for someone to come out with a way to manipulate a digital Ode if there was this big of a demand.
Here's a idea congress: Stop burning millions of tax dollars on wasteful "studies".
I have to return some videotapes...
Okay, so we're looking at 154,500,000 USD, right? The Federal gas tax is 18.4 cents.[tax] Average gas mileage is, say 22 MPG.[miles] Or, we pay .8 cents per mile. This means the study costs 18,472,826,890 miles---18 billion. We drove 1,444 billion miles last year. So, this "only" costs one percent of our mileage tax.
But, this is a violation of the Fourth Amendment, as the information collected is unreasonable---there are less intrusive measures (odometer).[fourth] Of course, there are a lot of you who think the Constitution is outdated and prefer a flexible interpretation.
[tax]: www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
[miles]:http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_23.html
[total]: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/tvtw/09juntvt/09juntvt.pdf
[fourth]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
I am NOT naive and your insult is uncalled for. Your distinction between government, the "ruling class" (now that sounds like tin foil), and corporations is unnecessary and only serves to support your baseless insult.
I had already mentioned the interaction between government and corporations, so I clearly have an understanding of the relationship between the two. Therefore, naive is hardly a word to describe my understanding, and it's context can only be construed as a condescending insult.
Furthermore, although corporations wield influence, ONLY the government can effect the theft of life, liberty, and property. There are also considerations in the many Wars (Iraq,Terrorism,Drugs,etc.) that are completely separate from corporations.
A corporation may collect data on me and annoy me with advertising, affect my life with usury, and disseminate information without my consent. It may abuse the legal process and my ignorance of the legal language to gain judgments against me and my property. However, in order to DO anything they must still obtain the services of the "government". A sheriff has to show up to my property to evict me. A foreclosure must be approved by the judge. So on and so forth.
So it is not "simple" or naive to fear the government more than corporations, since in the end, it will be a representative of government that knocks on your door to deprive you of your freedom (jail) and your possessions (judgments).
....Want to drive that 12MPG Excursion or F-350?...
You are forgetting that such vehicles already pay much more in gas taxes. Large heavy vehicles use more gas and thus pay more tax, but I suspect you want a nonlinear system, where the tax goes up even faster than the gas consumption. This is similar to how they charge utilities, at least electric power nowadays. It used to be that the more you use of something the cheaper it got, but now for many commodities is just the other way around.
All theory is gray
I called Representative Blumenauer's phone number and talked with Mr. Willy Smith there. I didn't know that members of Congress cannot be recalled.
Apparently no one in Rep. Blumenauer's office has any technical knowledge whatsoever. That's what Willy Smith told me. Apparently no one in that office realizes that their complete ignorance could possibly be a concern.
Mr. Smith told me, "Representative Blumenauer has never done heart surgery. Does that mean he cannot introduce health care legislation?" First, Representative Blumenauer knows a lot about heart surgery if he has read news reports over the last 20 years. He knows, for example, that heart surgery often fails. He knows the sociology of heart surgery because he has heard his friends and family talk about it.
Second, yes, if he doesn't thoroughly understand something, he should not make expensive proposals about it, especially since it seems that no one in his office wants to learn. Certainly that is the impression I got from Mr. Smith. Although we had a friendly, respectful conversation, nothing I said seemed to make any difference to him.
Wi-Fi and RFID are entirely voluntary technologies. They depend for their operation on the idea that the users want the technology to work. When the GPS on a United Parcel Service delivery truck fails, the central office can call the driver on his cell phone. The driver will be happy to say where he is. Failures are unfortunate, but soft and friendly.
Tracking the location of every car is NOT a voluntary use. Any failure or accidental interference would be a reason for a court case.
Mr. Smith told me that many people say very negative things about legislation introduced by Representative Blumenauer and other senators and representatives. So, why should he listen to me, he implied. Good point.
People are, at present, saying very negative things about President Obama's health care bill. Generally what they say is poorly expressed. But certainly they have some reason for complaint. President Obama is trying to accomplish something in a way that is socially impossible. Hillary Clinton tried another confused bill, and her ideas were rejected, also. However, although many people don't like the health care bill, no one seems to think that President Obama intends to profit personally.
One of the problems with Representative Blumenauer's actions concerning the 2009 H.R. 3311 bill is that, to a lot of knowledgeable people, they look like criminal fraud. He has taken money from companies that sell GPS technology. He is proposing that those companies get a huge amount of taxpayer money, for a study. That means that the companies can spend taxpayer money, but they don't have to produce anything useful. Maybe a study could cost $100,000. But $145 MILLION? For something that any technically knowledgeable person knows immediately cannot work well? That looks like criminal behavior.
Can Representative Blumenauer be ignorant of the fact that people don't want to be tracked everywhere they drive? Certainly, people think, he cannot be that ignorant. Therefore, they think, when he completely ignores the issue of privacy, he must understand what he's doing.
I thought gasoline taxes already accounted for this sort of thing. That is the more you drive your car the more tax you pay in taxes. If you're one of those idiots that must drive an 8mpg SUV then you undoubtedly pay more in taxes than someone who drives a midsized or compact car. Is this fair? I think so.
Since it doesn't look like anybody actually READ the report Oregon put out on milage taxes I'll provide a link to the report. The reports themselves are in the top right of the page. http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/RUFPP/mileage.shtml They realize there is a privacy issue. Transportation Research Board (TRB) who conducts millions of dollars of research each year realizes there is a privacy issue. They are working on it. Please stop yelling "The sky is falling" so loudly and let's have a well informed, civil discussion about this. The gas tax hasn't been increased in ~20 years, so we'll have to pay for new roads somehow. If you hadn't received a raise in 20 years you'd be looking for new sources of income too. On top of that, vehicles are getting more miles to the gallon (a good thing), but are still damaging the road the same amount and paying less to do so (a bad thing). Either way, I think I'm late to this discussion, but they are worthwhile reports to read and should be attached to every discussion on this topic. I'd guess this paper should be read too, but I haven't read it myself. http://financecommission.dot.gov/Documents/NSTIF_Commission_Final_Report_Mar09FNL.pdf
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Do we REALLY need another tax? I try to stay out of political mine fields like this, but good lord, when will there be enough taxes? Pretty soon, we'll just sign over our pay to the feds, and they will take care of everything for us, except we'll still have to buy food, fuel, clothes, etc., but since we are giving all our money to the feds for everyone else to get help, we will be left holding a HUGE bill, and a large stick we can sit and rotate on.
The only thing that will come from more taxes are less people willing to work, because erverything will be given to us if we are lazy and just ask the feds for assistance with everything. Kinda makes you wonder why we keep increasing budgets for so called humanitarian projects like health care, food stamps, no child left behind, anti-bullying bills, bridges to nowhere, research on why pig crap smells so bad, and twenty million pet projects that simply HAVE to have funding or the world as we know it will collapse.
IMHO; there should be one more law that says, you cannot be a governmental elected official such as a senator or congressman, nor can you work for them if you have more than a degree in underwater basket weaving. One of the reasons this once great nation is in trouble is because the people that know how to bend the rules to their personal benefit are the ones making the rules.
I know I'll get flamed for this, I know I'll be modded as a troll, but it's time those of us that have brains and know how to use them took our brains out of their back pockets, dusted them off and started using them instead of simply whining about everything that has gone wrong with society. I'm doing my part, I am running for local government so I can make a difference, what are all of you doing?