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(Near) Constant Internet While RV'ing?
Neilio writes "What systems would Slashdotters recommend for staying connected while RV'ing across the US and Canada? While a 3G data plan seems obvious, the intrepid RV'er wants to get remote and into those parts of the coverage map that are usually gray (no coverage). But satellite can be expensive, includes high latency for VoIP and gaming, and requires a clear view of the southern sky. I've come across some intriguing products that use an amplified 2G/3G signal and bridge to WiFi, like WiFi In Motion, and CradlePoint's MBR1000 (I have no affiliation with either). Do folks have any experience with these, or can you recommend another approach (even homebrew)? While I am an electrical engineer by degree, you have to go back a few decades since I last expertly sported a soldering iron, so the less DIY the better. My wife and I now run a web-based business, so nearly daily connectivity is a must, no matter where we are."
Very slow and very expensive, but as they have lots of satellites in polar orbit, you just need a clear view of the sky. Maybe use it only where you can't get a cellphone connection.
Big spools of Cat V... it's cheap
Inmarsat BGAN performs well however it is pricey for the setup and monthly fee. The advantage is that you can get coverage basically everywhere. There's also setups that allow tie-in for a phone, fax etc.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
I have been using them for almost a year and the speed is OK (~1 M), the latency a bit high (~100ms). It is a 3G wireless card, plugs into a PCMCIA slot. I created a home router, but you can buy one that fits the card. If they ever get their act together, they might bump it up to 4G. All you need is one of their cell towers. And they have a map.
netstumbler?
THL phish sticks
If you want constant internet access, you must not go where there is no signal.
If you want to go enjoy remote places with no signal, you cannot have constant internet coverage.
Pick one.
You say "the intrepid RV'er wants to get remote", but you want to remain in constant internet contact. You claim it's about your business, but you worry about latency's effect on gaming.
Why exactly are you heading out anywhere? Cuz it sounds to me you're not gonna to see anything that's not reflected in your computer screen...
#DeleteChrome
most people (ie, non-slashdotters) take the RV to get away from the constant barrage of tech and telecom, to see sights not (web)sites, to look out the window and not at Windows.
You don't want to use satellite and you say cellular coverage isn't good enough. What exactly are you expecting? If there's no connectivity, there's no connectivity. No amount of homebrew can fix that.
You also seem confused by WiFi In Motion and Cradlepoint products. They don't amplify anything, they're just access points that you can plug your phone in to get wifi coverage. A laptop and a router can do the same thing.
You have two choices:
1) Pony up the dough for satellite coverage
2) Get a cellular data plan and live with no connectivity in dead zones
I don't believe there are any other alternatives.
Product requirements;
- Decent latency
- Decent bandwidth
- Available everywhere
- Reliable
Solution; none. There is no product out there that will meet all four requirements.
It now falls to you to decide what your priority is. Given that you need to stay in contact because of business concerns, I'd guess you'd make the following priorities
1) Reliable
2) Low latency for voip purposes
3) Enough bandwidth for voip/email/image uploads
4) Available everywhere.
If that's the case, then the obvious answer is to simply NOT travel anywhere without 3g coverage. No other solution you are going to find will match your requirements otherwise.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
RV = Recreational Vehicle. It's a small (or sometimes large) home on wheels.
I think the Brits call them "Caravans", in case you're from that side of the pond. ;)
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
Implementable anywhere an RV can go. Latency leaves something to be desired.
Where law ends, tyranny begins -- William Pitt
intrepid RV'er
I may have a different definition of "intrepid" than you but to me there's nothing intrepid about any location you reach by road unless you're talking about hostile countries or might-wake-up-without-your-kidney parts of Mexico. Especially if you're on your laptop having a conference call while your TV dinners cook inside the RV.
Do yourself a favor and get out of the position where your business can't function without you. If you have you have to be a single point of failure I'm sorry you picked that profession in life and it's great that you make twice what I make but I would not trade places. If you want something moderately challenging then leave at home all your electronics and canoe/portage 50 miles into the Boundary Waters Canoe Area for an intrepid vacation. Trust me, to see land so pristine was a near religious experience and I definitely went back.
Go white water rafting or mountain hiking or get dive certified. I'm sorry if your health doesn't permit this but I personally don't find anything intrepid about a recreational vehicle.
My work here is dung.
I will have to continue the trend of most posters and say none. If you are wanting just basic connection to load a page or two in a browser, you can do satellite in the places where 3G is no an option, but if you need things like VoIP and gaming, then forget it. Even over 3G the latency is too high for gaming unless you are playing some turn-based RPG. VoIP might be ok as long as you turn up the compression on the codec, but over all I think your best option is to either stay put, or stop frequently to plug in your laptop to a wired network.
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It won't give you 100% completely continuous coverage, but in areas where there is even weak 3G coverage outdoors but just not inside the RV, you could use a repeater. That allows you to put a really big antenna outside (it can even be directional) and the unit acts as a small local cell tower giving you full bars inside the RV.
Of course, if you go outside of 3G coverage, your phone will fall back to an older technology which is slower, and if you get out of data areas altogether you're screwed. However, you can supplement this in a lot of areas - many parks now offer WiFi.
I use a repeater at my house because, while I have half-decent signal outside, I have an aluminum-sided house and inside there's no signal whatsoever. I just use the included el cheapo antenna, but you can add some really powerful receiving antennas for some extra dough. My repeater cost about $300, and is a ZyXel unit, but Wilson and several other companies make various iterations of them with various antenna designs.
You'll still have to stick to at least fringe areas where signal is actually available, but it would significantly increase your range at least. Short of satellite, which you've already said you don't want, that's about it at the moment.
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
2-way sat modems are very tricky to set up the dish. You can't just point them with a compass and azimuth guess like you do with DBS...you have to get feedback about how well the satellite is receiving your uplink. And if you do get it pointed correctly, every time you walk around the RV you'll move the dish a little bit and lose the uplink. Also, the "flat" dishes you see on top of escalades that work in motion are receive only. You cannot use a 2-way sat modem while in motion, period.
I think 3G is your best bet. I'd go with a cradlepoint and have a tetherable 3G phone (on a different network) as a backup. ( Possibly, you can plug two different providers' USB modems into the same cradlepoint and make handoffs seamless; you'd have to ask them to be sure.)
If you can park near someplace near civilization you'll probably spot an open wifi in about 30 seconds.
Final thing is if you're running a web-based business and can afford an RV and 3G phones and stuff, perhaps you can afford some employees to run the business for you while you go on an actual vacation.
We'd probably call it a camper van. A large camper van.
A caravan is something old people tow behind their hysterically underpowered cars in order to clog up the smaller roads in rural Britain with maximum effectiveness for any public holiday weekend.
RV'ing is when you put on a one-piece jump suit, throw all your stuff in a big box on wheels and drive up any hill you can find at the slowest speed possible and still be considered moving. If you see a place where you can park your big box, you pull over and most likely others, also wearing one-piece jump suits, will pull over too. You all make drinks and talk about each others big box, your next big box, and the box that got away.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Nationwide wireless internet sucks.
Stay at campgrounds that offer Wifi, problem solved.
KOA has tons.
http://koa.com/
If speed and latency aren't priorities and you can deal with unencrypted transmission, I'd recommend getting an amateur radio license and operating a packet radio.
That is odd I use my boat for recreation but it doesn't qualify as a RV. I use my off road rigs for recreation too. Someone care to explain?
Starfish aren't fish, either, and you park on driveways and drive on parkways. It's called language. Get used to it...
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
So it's like a lan party, only with more driving?
It's just the term that's developed in the US for a large van or bus that has beds in it.
If you call it a "Recreational Vehicle", most "RV" drivers would look at you oddly anyway, so the acronym has largely lost its original roots.
Some call them "Campers", but that's usually a term reserved for the type you tow behind another vehicle. Somehow, the term "RV" came into usage for the ones that are built onto a chassis that has an engine and drivetrain.
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
Airlink Ravens are cellular modems with Ethernet jacks. You can attach any kind of antenna you want to it - mount it on the roof if you like. Run the signal you get through a cellular amplifier and that's about as good as you can ask for in the cellular world.
Half the comments have some portion dedicated to criticizing the idea of RVing and "being connected'. Why is it so hard to understand that liking the outdoors/road and having internet are not opposites. Everyone that is asking why he even needs internet should ask themselves why they want phone service when not at home. The internet is just as much a tool as a frying pan or a tent these days, and having access to it at all times is very useful. Not to mention that one could spend all day hiking around and doing activities outside only to retreat back to camp and want an hour or two of connectivity. Not totally insane if you ask me. As for how to do it? Well I am not an expert in that area so I will let someone else help out.
Good point.
An RV would probably more accurately be called a "Camper Van". My mistake. Though I don't know if you have a separate term for one the size of a bus, errrr, lorry.
A "Caravan" would be (depending on size) probably called a "Pop-up" (very small one that collapses), "Camper" (about the size of an automobile, the ones that Top Gear are always destroying), or a "Fifth Wheel" (if it requires a very large truck and sleeps more than 4) in the US, if I have my English to USEnglish translator working correctly. Unless you have other terms for the pop-up type and/or the really big "sleeps eight" behemoths.
Sorry for the confusion.
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
The very size of a typical RV is going to limit the roughing it. You won't be driving it cross country, you'll likely be on Interstates and staying in campgrounds. Many campgrounds already offer WiFi, as do most bookstores and restaurants. Map out where you are going on the internet, and identify chain stores that offer WiFi. Stop in their parking lot, walk around and get something to eat and get access. Picking campgrounds that offer WiFi isn't difficult either.
Screw Starbucks, any public library and many other establishments have FRE wifi. Hell, the bar I go to has wifi, and almost all its patrons are construction workers who don't even have computers, let alone laptops. I've never seen anybody in there use the wifi. McDonald's (at least the one on 6th street) has free wifi.
Do you pay for your air?
Free Martian Whores!
I admin a number of servers and work from home most days. My wife and I would love to live further out in the countryside without all the noise and light pollution. Most people that I mention this too have an instant solution: satellite. The problem that most people don't understand, and the problem I find myself explaining, is the concept of high latency. As I use SSH for my livelihood, low latency is extremely important.
Most people don't understand the negative effect of latency on interactive real-time communication until I use the example of gaming. That's when people "get it"...even though I haven't playing anything online in a couple of years.
The most important service to my life right now, and the way I earn my livelihood, is via SSH.
Could it be that because he runs some webservers, he _might_ need SSH...that, and he might have kids and/or a spouse that likes to game?
Seems reasonable to me.
Just FYI, I do agree with a post from another thread that explains it this way:
1. user wishes to be out in the sticks
2. user wants connectivity
3. connectivity isn't always available in the sticks.
4. therefore user isn't always able to get connectivity when in the sticks.
5. profit?
Sig Return: 204 No Content
My wife and I are considering an RV next spring and plan to take 1-4 week trips all over North America.
I did some research and concluded that a combination of satellite, 3G, and a WiFi repeater would give us reasonable results. The difference is that we DON'T have a business to mind, don't need low-latency links for gaming, and don't plan on going to the middle of nowhere. I figured that even the TiVO would work while driving, with a $2500 mobile satellite antenna rig on the roof.
You're asking for a "perfect" solution, which is your case, does not exist.
The simple solution is the 7P rule; "Proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance".
Decide which is more important on any jaunt...going where no man has gone before OR grinding some quests in WoW.
Put another way...and most technology adheres to THIS rule; the three variables are GOOD, FAST, and CHEAP - pick the two that are most important for YOU to have.
I am my own gestalt.
In the UK a caravan is a caravan. If it sleeps 8 and has e.g. 2 axles and requires towing by a 4x4 or whatever, it's just a 'big caravan'. A smaller single axle one that sleeps maybe up to 4 is just called a 'caravan' or a 'small caravan'.
The kind of thing that collapses into a small trailer is called a 'trailer tent', if it's the thing I'm thinking of. Also an alternative name for a 'camper van' is just 'camper' or 'caravanette' (less frequently used).
Mickey: Good dags. D'ya like dags?
Tommy: Dags?
Mickey: What?
Mrs. O'Neil: Yeah, dags.
Tommy: Oh, dogs. Sure, I like dags. I like caravans more.
I donno, these are pretty #&$**!@ intrepid. Or at least, built to allow for some rather intrepid RV'ing. So, you know, it could happen. We live near the hospital that commissioned this particularly ridiculous piece of machinery, and every time I see it, I get filled with the desire to drive over some shit. In a very manful way.
Mod my comments down. It'll be fun.
Whatever the attire, the couple must wear matching items.
The simplest and easiest way to get service on the road is with a 3G setup. The major phone carriers in the US all offer pretty descent data service. Verizon probably has the single largest, although Cingular is getting close. T-mobile is almost non-existent. Check their coverage maps and compare it to where you want to go. Also, note that you don't need to be in the 3G/high speed area to access the internet. The equipment will work anywhere you can get a cell phone signal. If you are out of the 3G area, it falls back on the standard 2G/Voice system. Expect the speed of this service to be slightly better than an analog phone modem. In other words, if you want to email and surf pages that are mostly text, it's perfectly fine. If you want to do a lot of video, then the 2G service will be very frustrating and take a long long long time to upload or download the content.
The best thing you can do for coverage, if you're planning on going on the fringe is use an external amplifier/booster and put a reasonably high gain antenna mounted high on the RV. With this, you'll pull in a good solid signal where the standard issue equipment won't get anything. You can find them any number of places online. Make sure it works with the high speed/3G service - usually on the 1.9 ghz band. You can get even better distance if you put the antenna on some kind of expendable telescopic pole. An antenna mounted high with a descent amplifier will get you many miles of added coverage.
If you are really really out in the boonies, like in the badlands of Death Valley or the isolated ravines of the Rocky Mountains in Wyoming, then there is no service that you will be able to rely on other than satellite. There are two basic kinds of satellite internet: Mobile satellite services and DBS type satellite systems. The mobile satellite services include Inmarsat, Irridium and Globalstar. These systems are explicitly designed to operate in motion and to be used in extremely remote locations. Irridium, for example, works on all points on the earth, even Antartica. The equipment is small and portable. There are a couple disadvantages: they are generally slow, and in the case of globalstar and iridium, they are absolutely snails pace - think 2400 baud under good conditions. Inmarsat has a service called BGAN, which is about 128kbps per channel. It is also astronomically expensive.. just stunningly expensive. Think 5-7 dollars a megabyte expensive. It's so expensive that if you can rack up over a thousand dollars in traffic just by casual internet surfing for a couple of weeks.
Then there is the other kind of satellite internet: the DBS/VSAT type. This type is really designed primarily for residential and small buisiness use. It is offered in areas that are lacking DSL, FIOS or Cable. You wouldn't ever want to install this in an area that did, because its generally inferior to those kinds of connections due to latency. The latency is not so bad that you can't surf the web - usually it's acceptable but don't expect to do online gaming with it, because it has ping times of 400+ ms. The equipment for this is small dish and a residential modem/gateway. It's on par with DirecTV or Dish Network in terms of the size of the dish. It costs anywhere from 50-150 dollars a month for the service. Although the dishes are generally intended to be fixed mounted, you can attach them to a tripod or something for portability. If you want to use it while you're in motion, then you can do that too, but expect to pay more than $1500 for an in-motion tracking system.
If you go with satellite, I'd recommended Wildblue, but you can also look at HughesNet and Starband. Expect to pay a few hundred for equipment and maybe 75-100 a month for the service. It will work anywhere in North America that has a clear view of the South.
Wifi? You have got to be kidding me. If you mean to use it within the RV to allow you to move freely with your laptop, then that's one thing, but to a
And less internet (see above).
Good, but leave it to the pros:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GZRmzuiig8
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
Well, no ... starfish may not be fish, but RV's certainly are recreational vehicles. That's a pretty horrible analogy.
Also driveways and parkways are both properly named, it's just your base assumption which is wrong. A driveway is a private path on which you drive in order to reach the house, and a parkway is a road which passes through a "landscaped thoroughfare" or a park. Both words make perfect sense if you understand their origin.
There will be several modes that you will have use. As with anything else a fulltimer faces, no single solution will work all of the time.
Stick with 12volt hardware. This should be obvious. You will not need to run your genny to have internet access.
Pending where you are going to be this is what I have found to be the most flexible.
Buy a cradlepoint or something similar that can take multiple brands of 3g cards/dongles, with a secondary ethernet wan port. Make sure the 3g cards/dongles have external antenna connectors.
Buy an outdoor directional wifi CPE that has power over ethernet. Try to make sure it is 12v.
Buy a wilson outdoor antenna, extension cable ( if needed) and connector dongle for each 3g card. I prefer makeing a custom mount that attached to the ladder, than penetrating the roof, but that is your choice.
Buy a wilson amplifier, this is critical.
Buy a motorola cable modem, and a at&t wired dsl modem.
Locate a spot in the cabin that can wall mount the router, amp, and router the cables. I installed a separate lighted power switch for each of the 12v supplies, to make sure that the system had power and that I could cut it off and make it wife proof.
Install the wifi CPE on a pole and make a mount that will mount to the ladder or other strong point. I would not bother will any fancy ethernet jacks on the outside, just have the cable go through the basement into the cabin.
The problem with 3g is their 5gig limit. I would have a sprint and AT&T card. This should give you 3g over most of the US.
The reason for the WIFI, is that almost all decent parks have some form of either pay wifi or free wifi. Turn it on, turn off the 3g and you win.
All major truck stops have wifi, traditionally I always spent the night at flying J. I think their yearly price is not that bad.
If you plan on spending more the two weeks at a single spot. Look for parks that advertise cable television. So far all but one of them, I found that I could get my cable modem working. None of the parks will be aware of this. All you do is plug the modem up and if it gets sync, try to surf. Usually there will be a redirect to the cable companies customer disservice line. If not call the customer service line. Usually you give them the mac and you will be online in minutes. Make sure that there is no contract since they are not supplying a modem. Cancel service when you leave.
You can do this also with DSL on site supplied phone lines, but it takes days to weeks for the line to get turned up. I usually use dsl as a last hope.
While on the road use 3g, for the parks, plan ahead and call the parks office. They usually will know if they have wifi and sometimes will know if their cable supports cable modems. Always have 2-3 parks ready, and pay the daily rate until you have verified which park is the best for a fulltimer.
Good luck.
dhh
Very well said! This post deserves a score higher! Yes it's language, it's human, and it's not logical :-)
Fascinating...
Bow-ties are cool.
That's an excellent idea for general "stay in touch" communications, and even blogging about their travels, but he also mentioned a business, and commercial use of ham radio is prohibited.
No, it is not. Since I telecommute and I homeschool my child, I have seriously considered packing up an RV and traveling the country. When we want to study the Civil War, we could go spend some time actually visiting historic battles sites. When we want to study the Revolution, we can go to Boston and look at the Boston Harbor. When we study desert ecosystems, we could go to the desert. In fact, for me, I don't want to go RVing to get away from it all. I want to go RVing to get TO it all.
And the distance from the hotel to "nature" is typically only half-an-hour. You can go picnic, enjoy the outdoors, and then come back to the hotel for a hot shower and free cable TV."
I've wanted to do this kind of trip by motorcycle!! If I could somehow get 2-3 weeks off, and friends that could do the same, and just to the 'iron-butt' ride around a good bit of the US.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Actually, the whole "clear view of the southern sky" is because those direct broadcast satellite systems use *geostationary* satellites. In case you hadn't heard of those, they are satellites in a very particular orbit, by virtue of which they are at rest relative to the surface of the earth.
The thing about it is that there is only one geosynchronous orbit, and it is approximately 36,000 km (22,000 mi) above the equator. It is physically impossible to have a geostationary orbit over any point other than the equator.
If the satellites are not in geostationary orbit, you cannot use a high-gain directional antenna unless you have active tracking (which is certainly beyond the scope of consumer products). Instead of using high-gain antennas with individual satellites, systems like GPS (except the WAAS satellites), Iridium, and such use multiple satellites ("constellations") for their coverage. This has significant impact on operational efficiencies for bidirectional communications.
(As an aside, considering the high latitudes involved in Russian satellite communications, they have implemented a very cool pseudo-geostationary satellite system. By placing three satellites 120 degrees apart in the same high-inclination orbit, they can have at least one satellite always within a small cone of the sky. It is not quite as precise (and therefore not capable of quite as high gain) as true geostationary orbit, but it allows for non-tracking relatively high gain satellite systems.)
An Alltel USB Receiver w/ unlimited Broadband plan(hint:now running on the Verizon network). I traveled all of the Southwest and most of the Northwest Spring of 2008 for work w/ my VZW phone and VZW unlimited Broadband with more connectivity than I had hoped for...you'd be surprised how often a usable signal can be found in the middle of nowhere in eastern Oregon or BFE, New Mexico. IE: I rarely/barely went more than an hour or so without signal on my travels, longest had to be from Ontario, ID to Bend, OR. Talk about desolate beauty.
Today I now use the Alltel service at home outside Phoenix metro b/c Qwest DSL here blows, no other hard-line option available and VZW implemented the 5GB cap shortly after I canceled to test drive Sprint's(VZW broadband blew Sprint away in my travels, despite what I had heard to the contrary). I was on a borrowed VZW USB when I moved in to my rural dome home and have found since that Alltel's broadband(still no cap on new plans, yay!) is actually more reliable and faster than VZW...and it's VZW's network, go figure.
One more plug for VZW's network(I love/hate them, btw): I spent 3 weeks in July 2008 camping in Chevelon Canyon, AZ(up around the north crossing), and found a signal on a rise in the forest road 30 rough miles from the nearest civilization. I walked 1.6 miles from base camp every other evening to check messages and make calls. Mom didn't have to worry and work required me to VNC twice by driving to the site and using my laptop, a cheap 400w inverter and my truck's battery. Talk about getting away.
Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
advocating common sense on Slashdot!?
Except it's not common sense. Common sense says a person doesn't need to be always connected. I know when I'm out hiking, with my camera equipment and laptop, I'd like to be able to upload photos and updates occasionally. I oppose being always available but connecting perhaps once or twice a day may be good.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Starfish aren't fish, either...
The fish took offense to that name, so we call them "sea stars" now. Keep up with the times, you insensitive clod.
Did this for years. Here are the results. You want an antenna adapter for your EVDO card and a Wilson Trucker Antenna. This will bring a moderate signal to five bars. Next step up, a good amp will bring a weak signal to five bars but it will not take "no signal" and make it into a good signal. Even if you have a portable 40' tower (been there done that) you will not operate outside the timing boundary for the cell tower. Summary, unless you are staying inside the people hive, you will need to have a motosat system and all the complexity, power draw, etc, that this involves. Have fun.
I highly recommend you check out Red Ball Internet hxxp://www.redballinternet.com They have some pretty sweet highspeed mobile wireless solutions.
The only technology that blankets the planet is satellite. No other signal has the reach. It's that simple.
It isn't just HughesNet anymore, there are other companies in the space (get it?) now too, like WildBlue, Skycasters and some others.
I would highly recommend picking up a portable satellite setup like you'll find by clicking on my signature. I'm not really shilling for it, it's my father-in-law's hobby business, but he has come up with some pretty cool stuff.
The bigger question is, why do we have a pair of underpants but only one bra?
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Yes, I read about that in Off-Road Rolls-Royce Magazine years ago. It carried articles about "Four-wheel Drive and Your Rolls", "Shooting Quail from Your Rolls", "Cooking Potatoes in Aluminium Foil on Your Engine", and "What to Do If Your Driver Is Eaten by a Bear".