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Children's Watch Allows Parents To Track Their Kid

Posted by kdawson on from the watchbird-is-watching-you dept.

pickens writes "The Telegraph reports that a new wristwatch called num8 has a GPS tracking device and satellite positioning system concealed inside so parents can locate the wearer to within 10 feet with Google maps. The watch sends an alert if it is forcibly removed. The makers of the watch claim it gives peace of mind to parents and makes children more independent. 'Losing your child, if only for a brief moment, leads to a state of panic and makes parents feel powerless. The overriding aim of num8 is to give children their freedom and parents peace of mind,' says a company spokesman. Critics of the watch say tagging children is a step too far in paranoia about child safety. 'Is the world really that unsafe that parents need to track their children electronically? I don't think so,' says Dr Michele Elliott, director of children's charity Kidscape."

36 of 607 comments (clear)

  1. Kid won't know what to do when an adult by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sometimes I wish for some apocalypse just so the "Please won't someone take care of me!" dolts realize that the only person who can take care of you - IS YOU!.

    1. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by malkavian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When you're 5 or 6, you can't take care of you though.. That's what family and parents are for; the world's one big adventure, and you can cross oceans sailing in a top hat, with no food or water, and it'll be fine!
      For every hour of every day, it's overkill, but if you're going out to the local mall, and your kid's just at the age where they're free to wander a little, it may be a good idea.. I can remember (very vaguely) as a kid starting to explore away from the parents' house. I wandered up some side streets and got lost.. I was absolutely terrified, and so were they.. I wanted to go home and had no idea where home was, and they had no idea where I was.. Thankfully, back then, the community was more closely knit, and one of my mother's friends saw me and escorted me back home.
      So, yes, I can see some perfectly valid cases where this'll head off a lot of grief on both sides if used judiciously.
      Think it could sell as a student tool too (if I pass out in a ditch after a few too many, come pick me up please!!)..

    2. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm all for self-reliance, and for not being a paranoid nitwit; but the notion that all the problems of the world are solvable by rugged self-reliance and insolvable by other means would be merely absurd, were it not so common.

      Until the advent of mass spectrometers in every household, the difference between a nice cool drink and a delicious cup of cancer comes down to what someobody else may or may not have been dumping into your water supply. The difference between a safe commute and exciting fiery death comes down to whether or not some multinational car company decided to do a recall on the car the guy behind you is driving in response to a defect report from one of their subcontractors.

      There are, to be sure, loads of problems that are best solved yourself, ideally by means of not being a moron. However, pretending that all problems are such is nothing more than a good way to end up alone and helpless against people who are neither.

      In fact, that is the reason why you have to "wish for some apocalypse" for people to "realize that the only person who can take care of you is you". Under non-apocalyptic conditions, there are loads of people who can take care of you. Like your doctor, and the guy who makes your garbage go away, and the chap who (eventually) comes out when your internet connection isn't working, and the whole massive supply chain that keeps your widgets flowing. Contemporary society, really anything beyond the barest forms of subsistence scavenging, absolutely depends on division of labor and specialization. And, the necessary consequence of specialization is dependence on others. Not absolute, Smith's pin factory isn't a hive society; but pretending that you can have autarchic self reliance and division of labor at the same time is silly.

    3. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 4, Funny

      It costs 150 pounds ($240-250 USD). I think I can think of things more valuable to a growing child than an overpriced watch/GPS combo.

      Of course, remembering how I treated watches as a child, I think the GPS functionality might come in handy more often than you suspect. No, your child isn't going to be kidnapped, but he *will* lose his watch. Except this time you have a chance to find it. If this happens 10-20 times, it will pay for itself (vs. the cost of a visually identical non-GPS watch). If my parents hadn't stopped buying me watches after I lost the fourth one, I definitely would have come out ahead on this.

      --
      $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
    4. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can remember (very vaguely) as a kid starting to explore away from the parents' house. I wandered up some side streets and got lost.. I was absolutely terrified, and so were they..

      That experience taught you something. It was a small step towards being a more responsible person. Kids who are under 24/7 surveillance never learn that freedom comes with responsibility, that their parents' trust to let them wander around by themselves must be earned by not getting lost. Getting lost taught you to be cautious.

      The grand-parent AC is right: Preempting every bad decision and the following consequences creates irresponsible children who turn into irresponsible adults.

    5. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by R2.0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Contemporary society, really anything beyond the barest forms of subsistence scavenging, absolutely depends on division of labor and specialization."

      That's a hell of a jump there. Besides which, you are setting up a strawman. The GP didn't say "all the problems of the world are solvable by rugged self-reliance and insolvable by other means". He was bemoaning the fact that people expect others to take care of them and keep them safe. One can be responsible for oneself without roaming across the post apocalyptic wilderness.

      Let's take an example. Who is responsible for keeping you safe from criminals? Most would say "the police". But are you aware that, legally, the police are NOT responsible for that? Their job is to deal with crime AFTER it happens. To take it further, "police" as we know them didn't exist until 1829 with the founding of the London police. Prior to that, who was responsible for keeping people safe? The answer is that the individual, or family, was responsible.

      There's a big difference between the interactions of specialists in trade and a state of perpetual childhood. It's the difference between knowing some people make and sell shoes and it's my responsibility to acquire them by fair and legal means, and believing that it's the cobbler's responsibility to ensure that you have shoes. Or someone elses responsibility to force the cobbler to give you shoes.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    6. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You'd probably get a lot of good from reading about Berentain Bears Learn About Strangers. Sure kids are vulnerable. Bad things could and may happen to them. But there's such a thing of being too scared and too cautious. Basic moral of the story is this: You should wary and careful around strangers, but most people aren't all that bad, and you shouldn't go around living your life in fear. I'm not sure how something like this wouldn't be used as a leash. If you really have to know the exact pinpointed location of your kids every second of the day, then you have too much fear.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    7. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Let's take an example. Who is responsible for keeping you safe from criminals? Most would say "the police". But are you aware that, legally, the police are NOT responsible for that?

      Warren v. District of Columbia is one of the pertinent cases on this subject. From the link:

      Warren v. District of Columbia is a U.S. Court of Appeals case in which three rape victims sued the District of Columbia because of negligence on the part of the police. Two of three female roommates were upstairs when they heard men break in and attack the third. After repeated calls to the police over half an hour, the roommate's screams stopped, and they assumed the police had arrived. They went downstairs and were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, and forced to commit sexual acts upon one another and to submit to the attackers' sexual demands for 14 hours. The police had lost track of the repeated calls for assistance. DC's highest court ruled that the police do not have a legal responsibility to provide personal protection to individuals, and absolved the police and the city of any liability.

      Cute, isn't it? The police "lose" the phone calls, don't respond for hours and then get absolved of all liability for the hell that those people had to go through. Remember that story the next time you are talking to someone who tells you that the police will protect you. They won't -- even if you live somewhere with a police force that's more competent than DC, it will still take them several minutes to arrive. Until they get there you are on your own. You'd best be prepared.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    8. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by gtbritishskull · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't have a problem with this watch, as long as it was used at tool and not a leash

      I think that's why people are against it. Because it will probably be used as a leash. It will be one more way of controlling your kids in lieu of good parenting.

    9. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "How do you expect a 6 year old to take care of themselves if they wander off somewhere?"

      In today's world? How many people live where a 6 year old can wander very far from SOME ADULT? Do you live in outback Australia, where the nearest neighbor is 30 miles away? If so, the GPS probably isn't available anyway.

      But, back to the 6 years old thing. Notice my nick. At six years old, a kid may not have great judgement, but they CAN take care of themselves. At age six, I had explored almost all of the township that I lived in. By age 10 I had covered almost all of my county. Get a grip - children are more capable than a lot of people want to give them credit for. Toddlers are the ones most likely to benefit from this idea, but if a parent NEEDS GPS to track their toddler, they aren't very good parents.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    10. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by InsertCleverUsername · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Exactly. like karate lessons. How about teaching your kid how to defend themselves,
      > along with all the goodness that comes with learning a discipline and being able to
      > utterly kick the crap out of the playground bullies.

      Um... So how does this address the little people getting abducted or lost? Even if they were 2nd degree black belts, it's not like they have the mass to defend themselves against most adults. Sounds like somebody has watched Ninja Kids one time too many.

      (BTW: I am enrolling both my toddlers in karate when they're old enough, but mostly for the discipline and a physical outlet.)

      --
      Ask me about my sig!
    11. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not the fact that he didn't "take them on" that shakes my confidence. From the account of the incident that I read it wasn't as simple as him handing over his wallet and going on his way. He went with them off the main drag into an alleyway, surrendered his wallet/car keys/cell phone/etc and was then clubbed over the head and left for dead.

      Anyone that would allow such a thing to happen to themselves while they still draw breath is not someone who has any business teaching self-defense. I would happily surrender my wallet to avoid a confrontation. I'd hand it over even if I knew I could win, because a wallet is not worth killing or maiming someone over.

      I draw the line at going with them. If someone demands that you go with them you should fight as though your life depends on it. Whatever they intend to do to you they obviously aren't comfortable doing it in your current location. It's sheer dumb luck that the instructor lived through this incident. He surrendered control of the situation and left himself at the mercy of criminal thugs. The fact that he's still in business amazes me.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    12. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by dlsmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Once it starts to catch on, it will be mandated for ALL children, ages ~3-15.

      Arguing against a "think of the children" fallacy with a slippery slope fallacy. Classic.

    13. Re:Kid won't know what to do when an adult by kdemetter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      With that training and attitude, you will need all you got when assigned to a level 4 classification in prison. I'm sure you can find someone your skill there, perhaps multiple encounters.

      I don't know any real karateka would be taking pride in permanently disfiguring other people, even though they did have it coming. Self defense is one thing. Bragging about how you maimed people on a public forum is another.

      As a practioner of karate , for 14 years , i have to agree with you.

      The first objective of karate , is to improve one's character . The karateka has to train with (not against ) other people , and learns respect.

      To quote Gisjin Funakoshi : "the purpose of karate , is not victory or defeat , but the improvement of the character , and personality of the practioner. Karate is sport , self-defence and body culture . If violence erupts , it is only the because of disharmony between body and spirt . "

      "To be violent , is to be weak" .

      While i can understand that , in the above mentioned situation , it might have been necessary to break someone's nose , to survive , this is nothing to be happy about . You survived , you can learn from the situation , but if you truly feel good about hurting someone , you are not practicing karate , as that mindset doesn't fit in karate.

      --
      Slipping shoelaces ?
  2. Good for pre-teens, but not older by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Personally I wouldn't use this for teenagers because at that age, they have matured enough that they deserve a little privacy, and they will be going to difference places and such as part of their normal social life. However, for pre-teens, they generally will not be going anywhere but the places you expect them to. If they're not at those places, then they're generally in trouble (whether they've wandered off on accident, been abducted, or are just being mischievous). I don't see how this bracelet really compromises much convenience on their part, so personally I wouldn't hesitate to use it on younger children.

    --
    "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    1. Re:Good for pre-teens, but not older by muckracer · · Score: 4, Funny

      > I don't see how this bracelet really compromises much convenience on their
      > part, so personally I wouldn't hesitate to use it on younger children.

      20 years later:
      "Dad...about that nasty cancer growth... :-/"

    2. Re:Good for pre-teens, but not older by mysidia · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you think 13 is a magic age where children suddenly deserve privacy of their whereabouts, heck no.

      That privilege is @ the parents' discretion. Usually people under age 17 must at all times tell their parents where exactly they are going, at what times. Typically parents just have to believe them, because it would be too inconvenient to have them watched at every moment, and well-behaved teens don't need it.

      And their parents may use any method at their disposal to verify the children are at the places they say they are. Privacy of location is not a right children have at any age.

      But usually if Children have demonstrated they can't be trusted the response isn't "Ok, wear this tracking bracelet", the response is "You can't go out, you're grounded." IOW, removal of privacy of location by disallowing them to leave.

    3. Re:Good for pre-teens, but not older by IBBoard · · Score: 4, Informative

      Personally I wouldn't use this for teenagers because at that age, they have matured enough that they deserve a little privacy

      That, plus if you look at the picture then there's no way in hell that any teenager would be seen dead with that thing on their wrist :D

    4. Re:Good for pre-teens, but not older by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Personally I wouldn't use this for teenagers because at that age, they have matured enough that they deserve a little privacy

      Exactly - if you put the wristwatch on a teenage boy, all they'll find is that he's spending most of his time in the bathroom rapidly jumping back and forth about 4" at a time.

    5. Re:Good for pre-teens, but not older by Swizec · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you think 13 is a magic age where children suddenly deserve privacy of their whereabouts, heck no.

      That privilege is @ the parents' discretion. Usually people under age 17 must at all times tell their parents where exactly they are going, at what times. Typically parents just have to believe them, because it would be too inconvenient to have them watched at every moment, and well-behaved teens don't need it.

      Why would people under the age of 17 have to have little locational privacy? Personally when I was 13-ish I simply stopped telling my parents where I am, usually through either flat out lying or through giving nonspecific information, simply felt I didn't want them quite knowing where I am. Besides, if there was any sort of trouble, I always had my cell phone with me so it wasn't like I magically vanished out of sight ... having to know where children are was, imho, important only before the age of mobile communication.

      However, nowadays, when I'm 21-ish my parents still keep pestering me about where I am and I _still_ don't tell them. Just goes to show parents never learn, ever.

  3. ZapEM! by muckracer · · Score: 3, Funny

    1. Extend functionality to provide automatic electroshock to BRAT moving beyond configured away-from-home radius
    2. ?
    3. PROFIT!!!

  4. We never needed them before by chetbox · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Parents have been perfectly capable of looking after their children without GPS tracking for millennia... IMHO with a little trust and good parenting, these devices are completely unnecessary.

    1. Re:We never needed them before by IBBoard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is it with the large proportion of parents who feel it suddenly is necessary, though? I'm a parent, and he may still be less than 18 months old and so not going very far, but both me and my wife feel that a lot of this stuff (including net nanny monitors) is overkill and is just going to destroy the child's concepts of trust, personal space and self-reliance.

      Instill good values in your child and do your job as a parent and you can't go far wrong. Start to let technology do your job for you (because, shock-horror, the other alternative is putting in effort and teaching stuff to kids) and it'll all go wrong.

    2. Re:We never needed them before by fiordhraoi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Parents have been perfectly capable of looking after their children without GPS tracking for millennia... IMHO with a little trust and good parenting, these devices are completely unnecessary.

      A statistically low percentage of child kidnappings, etc, does not in any way assuage the grief and pain of a parent who happens to be one of the unlucky few. As someone else above stated, this is probably not appropriate for teenagers, but rather is suited for young children. The fact that the human race will continue without your child isn't any kind of comfort to a parent. If they make a value judgment that the peace of mind and possible benefit of purchasing one of these is worth the cost, then so be it.

  5. Electronic child leashes by Zebedeu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's funny, I was having a discussion with my mother about how I thought child leashes were stupid and too invasive on the child's freedom.

    My mother told me she used to think like that too, until the day she lost one of her children (either me or my brother, don't remember) in a busy place. When that happened she realized that maybe the leashes are stupid, but at least you'll never lose your child in one moment of distraction. Thankfully, she never went though with it :-)

    I think a GPS bracelet is a nice compromise between having peace of mind and being too imposing on your child's ability to move and sense of independence. At least when they really are children -- for teenagers it's a different story, IMHO.

  6. Re:Training by mysidia · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's simple... take it off several times a day claiming it feels uncomfortable.

    In other words, set off the alarm intentionally, repeatedly.

  7. Big Brother starts with you! by agnosticanarch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hey, we should use devices like this to get children used to the idea of being watched constantly. . .

    Then, when they are adults, they won't mind Big Brother watching every little thing they do. It's for their safety, after all!

    ~AA

    --
    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
  8. please... by the_fat_kid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    oh, for fsk sake. have you people lost your damn minds?
    "lets get our children used to electronic monitoring early"
    We have a device like that here allready, we use it for work release from jail.
    How about we raise children that we trust out of our sight?
    If you need to track your children like criminals, then I feel sorry for you.
    sort of.

    --
    -- Sig under construction...
  9. Deeply troubling by Kupfernigk · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Forget the children for one moment. Consider the parental paranoia. We know that, fueled by irresponsible journalists, parents are being given quite wrong ideas about the frequency of abduction, number of pedophiles, and the general danger of the environment. This will not fix parental paranoia. Ten feet is the difference between sidewalk and roadway. Things like this merely feed it, inviting the "they wouldn't make these things if they weren't necessary" argument.

    Meanwhile I see mothers using phones (illegally, here) while driving their kids to school and weaving across the road. That's not a "perceived" danger. They let their kids get fat. Also not a perceived danger. They don't teach them the dangers of alcohol, which will kill far more people prematurely than all the world's pedophiles and kidnappers.

    We really do need to get across the idea that something can be technically feasible and yet undesirable, because a significant number of people do not get it. And in thirty years time the world is going to be run by people still metaphorically tied to mommy's apron, infantilised by never being given any freedom or responsibility. It's not a nice thought.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  10. Re:So, Dr Elliott, by muckracer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > what exactly would have happened to Madeleine McCann if she was wearing one
    > of these when abducted ? Either: (a) it would have been forcibly removed -
    > causing an alert, or (b) police would have been able to track her.

    Or (c) Tracking Police would have found her chopped-off arm, incl. intact bracelet.

  11. Re:So, Dr Elliott, by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Before or after her parents killed her and dumped her body?

    Oh and unless she slept with her watch on it would have made fuck all difference if she was abducted. Most child abuse comes from within the family, after that the majority comes from trusted family friends and people who are expected to be with the kids, only a small amount comes from strangers, so this will only be marginally more effective at preventing abuse than snake oil and kids would be better off allowed to go out freely (they would be out of reach their family & family friends). It's not that i think this is bad technology, but its very ineffective (and users should be aware of that) and may encourage bad parenting (not letting the kids go out enough).

    --
    IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
  12. Not always paranoia by pvera · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As a parent of an autistic child with escape artist tendencies, I would love to have this kind of watch. That is, assuming that my kid will wear it for more than 5 minutes in a row without trying to cut it off.

    My kid is 10 and incredibly fast. He doesn't understand the concepts of safety and fear, and is constantly figuring out ways to break our locks to go out wandering alone (he's even done it at school, which was actually a bit funny because he took off running in front of the principal, so for the first few minutes there was a gaggle of huffing and puffing teachers and secretaries chasing through an apartment complex until the cops arrived). A watch like this, combined with some kind of alarm could help us keep him alive and unharmed until he is 18.

    --
    Pedro
    ----
    The Insomniac Coder
  13. Useless as a kick stand on a bass boat. by kurt555gs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Almost all child abuse is from family members. Wearing a GPS watch won't help to stop the step dad from hurting the kid. Abuse or abduction by strangers is so rare that it is hardly worth mentioning. All this does is extract money from parents and lets them pretend the danger is somewhere that it isn't.
     

    --
    * Carthago Delenda Est *
  14. plug for my all time favorite /. sig by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "If you spend all your time childproofing the world you won't have any time to worldproof your child."

    I saw that in a sig awhile ago. Don't remember from who. It's a great one though.

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  15. Re:He'll be alive and well but you... by macaddict · · Score: 3, Informative

    ... will have run out of money. That "montly subscription" is sure as hell gonna wring every last buck out of yout wallet once they got you hooked.

    Try reading the website next time:

    Emergency use (1 alert/month) - £5 ($8).
    Standard use (60 alerts/month) - £10 ($16)
    Advanced use (90 alerts/month) - £13 ($21)
    Unlimited use (unlimited alerts/month) - £20 ($32)

    $32 is less than what a family spends at a restaurant. Go out to eat one less time per month, have plenty of money for the top-level subscription. And yeah, it's very much worth it if you can give your autistic kid a little more freedom and yourself a back-up system to keeping an eye on them.

  16. Top 10 reasons this is silly by bussdriver · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1) MOST the problem people for children are FRIENDS AND FAMILY! This fact can not be stated enough. Obviously, tracking does little good.

    2) The majority strangers are good people and will help / watch out for kids; well, not in lawsuit crazy countries or ones were the culture of fear makes everybody a threat; even the child who needs your help or supervision. Parents today seem over protective, possibly because they are so much more negligent than previous generations? (its not their fault they are this way)

    3) Teenagers will not wear such a watch, outsmart it etc. Teens get themselves into trouble; much of it not requiring tracking-- knowing where they are being foolish is not that useful. Its primary use here would be kidnapping into the sex trade which is much higher in some areas and at certain ages and genders. This is still quite a low percentage even in relative bad areas.

    4) Young "adults" would be better suited to a cell phone. Lots of ideas possible here. Ideally, something that was set it off with you yelling help... Your phone tracks you ALREADY to a general area if not precisely by this point-- no gps required. Eventually most children will have a cell phone too.

    5) Drug sex offenders to kill their sex drive. Similar to drugging the mental cases as we do now (both are mental problems.) This would possibly even help with the #1 cause of the problems. Makes more sense to have the sick people pay to treat themselves than everybody else pay to see where their kid was before / during victimization.

    6) How about we put the tracking devices ON THE OFFENDERS instead of all the kids? (which wouldn't help with biggest group-- friends and family.) This is a lot like house arrest bracelets.
    Seriously, somebody who preys on unknown kids/teens has a mental problem not a criminal problem-- punishment doesn't work; they only learn how not to get caught next time or go after safer targets (friends/family) or kill the victims. It requires life-long treatment, not temporary punishment. Its just as foolish as punishing gay people for being gay and thinking it will fix the situation. Legalized prostitution would also cut down the numbers- hey its a fact - prohibitions never work.

    7) Bad Behavior / Drugs: Knowing where the child is will not help a whole lot; most the drug users I've known did it around friends, at home, or even at school.

    8) Parents: Do you want to have data that could be used to prosecute your child?? In the USA, we prosecute children for stupid shit and are quite foolish about punishing them (in some areas even corrupt about it... http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/519/150)

    9) Clever hacker types (who could be kids) will combine with the power of the internet to provide less talented people easy ways to hack the watches so they don't work as planned

    10) What about bad coverage areas? GPS doesn't work in all places and sending the data back is even more troublesome. Should a parent call 911 because the child disappears near some kids basement? Would wrapping foil over it cause it to do the same thing?

    --
    Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news