TI vs. Calculator Hackers

first post by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:29 · Score: 5, Funny

55378008

Math by daveywest · 2009-09-21 03:32 · Score: 5, Funny

Somehow, this just doesn't add up.

Re:Math by Yvan256 · 2009-09-21 03:43 · Score: 4, Funny

TI has a new calculator based on the original Pentium?
Re:Math by Hatta · 2009-09-21 04:50 · Score: 3, Funny

Yeah. I don't think TI factored this development into consideration when it released this product.

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Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:Math by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2009-09-21 05:37 · Score: 4, Funny

Z80 is pre-x86 architecture, i.e. pre-pre-Pentium, and 68k is pre-Power PC architecture.
So technically, this should have sarcasmed with "oshwho".

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Re:Math by postmortem · 2009-09-21 05:52 · Score: 2, Informative

no, that would be intel's state-of-the-art graphics chip Larrabee.
Re:Math by elfprince13 · 2009-09-21 05:55 · Score: 5, Informative

As a long time member of the TI community, I have to say that I'm glad Slashdot is covering this. TI consistently works against the enthusiast community, and this is blatantly obvious in their new Nspire line of calculators. The 83+/84+ line has been their one concession to sanctioned assembly programming, and they still threaten legal action against anyone who starts delving into operating system stuff.
Re:Math by Mister+Whirly · 2009-09-21 05:57 · Score: 4, Funny

every time anyone has said "woosh" it's been non-funny and every other time it was just as deserving of its own "woosh"
whoosh

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"But this one goes to 11!"
Re:Math by mckinleyn · 2009-09-21 07:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

Then sign up for an account, get good karma, read daily, and go on a flamebait-hunting spree. Or, sign up for an account and turn off sigs.
Re:Math by elfprince13 · 2009-09-21 11:45 · Score: 2, Informative

It's z80. The 82, 85, 86 had to be hacked via a hex-edited backup file before it could be made to run assembly. The 81 only just not had exploits discovered to allow it to run assembly. The 83 didn't officially support it, but send(9prgmname was a sort of backdoor that allowed it. The 68K series is a little bit different story, but the differences in versions between hardware/firmware (my 68K terminology isn't quite up to speed), even in the same model make running assembly a pain in the arse. Look up "ghostbuster" (or something like that) on ticalc.org to see what I mean.

Wikileaks link by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 03:33 · Score: 5, Informative

I'm a lurker in that community and I have to say I'm extremely disappointed with TI. The community has had to reverse engineer every component of the hardware with no help from TI, and has done an amazing job writing development tools and mapping out which memory addresses do what.

Here's the wikileaks link to the keys.

Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

And thousands of people will mirror it....
What will they do with people outside the US where the DMCA does not apply?
The ease of which students can make their own programs is one of the reasons my college asked us to buy TI-brand calculators and not Casio (which is the other choice they give.. hp is not supported at all :-p)
Meh...
Re:Wikileaks link by Lumpy · 2009-09-21 03:52 · Score: 5, Funny

What will they do with people outside the US where the DMCA does not apply?
Get the US government to invade them?

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Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:55 · Score: 5, Informative

And here's the Freenet key for the zip file: freenet:CHK@cua6vt6OGoe8dBOY2D4PR13jt~FvyvmHlMJKXPcXUgs,gFqVGC6lWjlSdE0cizGzWcyE5Y9f5J0QyWo-GNmLluY,AAIC--8/keys.zip
Re:Wikileaks link by VernonNemitz · 2009-09-21 04:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

TI is certainly mistaken about the reach of Copyright Law in this matter. Out of all the code in a calculator, which they might copyright, then according to that Law, it is:
A. Fair Use to publish two numbers!
B. Not Applicable if the numbers were never in the calculator code!
Re:Wikileaks link by TrentTheThief · 2009-09-21 04:15 · Score: 4, Funny

I wonder if it's mirrored here: http://crystalwind.com/index.html
Re:Wikileaks link by dgatwood · 2009-09-21 05:02 · Score: 5, Interesting

The DMCA doesn't protect hardware in the U.S., either. Since AFAIK TI doesn't sell copyrighted software that is protected by DRM, this is clearly not a DMCA violation, and unless TI's lawyers haven't read any of the cases that have clarified this beyond a reasonable doubt, it also qualifies TI for perjury charges for deliberately making a false DMCA claim---not that any attorney general will actually have the guts to make an example of them....
IMHO, all these folks need to do is file a proper DMCA counter notice and then go about their business. Of course, IANAL, and they should consider getting advise from one.

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Re:Wikileaks link by Manax · 2009-09-21 05:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

I might be pissed, but I certainly wouldn't try to claim that they are violating my copyright, or claim that they are violating the DMCA (Ya know, there is that checksum digit in there...) or some other non-sense. I might make the claim (rightly) that they are attempting to commit fraud or identity theft, or facilitating such... but that isn't quite the same thing, now is it?

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"Why should I be content to simply live in this world, when I, as a human being, can CREATE it?" - Oertel
Re:Wikileaks link by nmb3000 · 2009-09-21 05:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

what makes the TI calculators better than, say, Pi Cubed (and a few other apps) for the iPhone?
Primarily the fact that it is a calculator and not a phone. The TI-89 has better numeric capabilities, great graphing ability, and a nice display. It can also run for months on a single pair of AA batteries.
That, and it doesn't cost more than $800 a year to operate.
Is it the interface, dedicated keys? RPN?
Yes, yes, and no. I can't imagine trying to use a tiny little touch screen for any serious calculator use.

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"What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
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Re:Wikileaks link by stephanruby · 2009-09-21 05:16 · Score: 5, Funny

What will they do with people outside the US where the DMCA does not apply?
Put them on a hacker terrorist watch list and disappear them the next time they partake in a terrorist training camp (e.g. a math conference).
Re:Wikileaks link by Toonol · 2009-09-21 06:29 · Score: 3, Funny

Wow, freenet DOES have a raison d'etre other than illegal porn!

I'm kind of kidding, but posting of freenet links on slashdot ought to be standard procedure whenever something is DMCA'd.
Re:Wikileaks link by gr8_phk · 2009-09-21 06:30 · Score: 3, Interesting

In what way is requiring firmware to be signed with a particular key not DRM?
It is not protecting copying of the firmware, it's preventing the running of unsigned firmware. It's probably not preventing the copy of applications either. It's simply preventing "unauthorized" software from running on the hardware. It's a lock, not copy protection. See the garage door opener case for an example where this is not protected under the DMCA.
Re:Wikileaks link by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 06:35 · Score: 2, Informative

Yeah why would you want to overwrite the OS when you can just write your programs from within Windows?
This opens the door for an open-source TI operating system. TI releases minor OS updates every few years and doesn't add much new functionality. Now we can do whatever we want and have it integrated completely with the home screen.
Re:Wikileaks link by PCM2 · 2009-09-21 07:00 · Score: 2, Informative

The TI-89 has better numeric capabilities, great graphing ability, and a nice display. It can also run for months on a single pair of AA batteries.
Actually, the TI-89 uses four AAA batteries, but the point is made.
Also, many colleges and standardized tests require students to use calculators rather than other devices because they are (at least nominally) limited to calculation. So far, at least, you can't surf Wikipedia for answers on a calculator. The TI-92 calculator is actually forbidden by some tests, despite the fact that it's functionally equivalent to the TI-89, because it has a QWERTY keyboard, which makes it a "computer."

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Re:Wikileaks link by dgatwood · 2009-09-21 07:49 · Score: 4, Informative

No, this likely falls completely and totally outside that law. This project is not about brute forcing crypto keys used to prevent decrypting the firmware. AFAIK, the firmware and apps are not encrypted. This project is about brute forcing keys used to SIGN firmware. The only time a signature is covered by the DMCA is if it is used to prevent people from using illegal copies of software that for some technical reason could not be copied with such a signature (e.g. game titles installed on a hard drive). Since no TI-83+ hardware is EVER sold without a copy of their firmware, such an argument is moot. Anyone with access to the hardware also has a legally licensed copy of the firmware. Therefore, the signature does not prevent people from obtaining copies of the firmware illegally in any useful way, and as such, is not a copyright protection mechanism under the DMCA.
In short, unless TI uses DRM software resident in their firmware to protect OTHER titles from copying, this clearly falls WELL outside the realm of the DMCA. Bear in mind that there are legal precedents for what I'm saying here. Similar cases have been tried in the past (e.g. Lexmark). The courts have consistently ruled that such circumstances are not protected. Now if TI has an app store and sells applications that are coded to your particular calculator in some way, they would have a case. Otherwise, using the DMCA in this way goes way beyond silly.

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Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Re:Wikileaks link by russotto · 2009-09-21 11:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

In short, unless TI uses DRM software resident in their firmware to protect OTHER titles from copying, this clearly falls WELL outside the realm of the DMCA.

If I were an evil and nasty copyright lawyer, I could find a DMCA 1201 hook to hang this on. Even if I couldn't get DMCA 1201(a), I could go for DMCA 1201(b)

(1) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that -
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof;
(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof; or
(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof.
I'd claim the firmware signing key prevented people from making unauthorized derivative works of the copyrighted TI firmware, by preventing such unauthorized works from running.
It's a stretch, but the courts (and juries) are sympathetic to big corporations who look like Authority, not eeevil hackers, who look like people trying to weasel around the law.
Now, the DMCA takedown is a different matter. The keys are (supposedly) randomly generated; they can't possibly be subject to copyright. DMCA 512 covers only regular copyright violations, not DMCA 1201 violations. So the DMCA takedown was bogus.

Worst move ever, by Icegryphon · 2009-09-21 03:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

If TI really wants to sell them calculators they would push the hobbyist market more.
Instead they stifle the enthusiast groups, but whatever I never really got into TI programming and hacking anyways.

Re:Worst move ever, by qoncept · 2009-09-21 03:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

I really have to wonder what dope modded the parent post as insightful. Enthusiasts aren't any manufacturer's target audience. There are (say) 10 million kids who need a graphing calculator for college or high school, and (say) 100 that are hacking them. Claiming those few are the key to success is just plain wrong.

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Whale
Re:Worst move ever, by sunking2 · 2009-09-21 03:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is exactly why they are not a big fan. The reality is there is very little difference hardware wise in the lesser and more expensive models. If all you need to do is upgrade some software to get your cheaper model to behave like the more expensive then TI loses a ton of money. It's all about trying to get people to upgrade to a model with a higher profit margin.
Re:Worst move ever, by evanbd · 2009-09-21 03:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

Those few calculator hackers (there are a lot more than 100 of them; they're a minority, but not that small a one) aren't just a few users. They're busy writing games and other useful programs. Those programs appear on just about every TI calculator out there, and plenty of people who aren't even remotely enthusiasts or geeks are using them. The enthusiasts have a disproportionate influence on how popular the platform is, because they make it more useful for everyone.
Re:Worst move ever, by 0100010001010011 · 2009-09-21 04:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

This isn't about 3rd party apps. This is about signing for the OS.
TI doesn't care what programs you write, in assembly OR TI-Basic. They do care if you overwrite their OS.
Re:Worst move ever, by LarrySDonald · 2009-09-21 04:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

The point isn't that they're the target market, but that they are somewhat useful and completely harmless. I hacked on every calculator I used (you have to do something while watching the dry as paint lectures and they're an allowed tool in school. Hey, perhaps I do think this English lecture needs some mathematical analysis, who are you to judge?) and I have no earthly idea how exploring their deeper workings did any harm at all to the maker. Also, this is the group that will (I've noticed) be asked what calculator you should buy. I bought all that were allowed in school pretty much, so that won't help you, but I was also the go to guy for 20 and by extension hundreds for "Ok, so what's the deal here? What should I buy?". It's crazy. I'm not sure what they're trying to prevent. They sell hardware and pretty much that only. They're not razorblade - they charge full price for the hardware they sell. What's the point in even trying to prevent people from doing what they feel like with it? Of course they have certain amounts of right to do so, just as we have every right to not buy their crappy locked down platforms, but it's hard to see where alienating the enthusiasts, which by secondary steps will alienate a ton more who asked them "So what about TI?" and got the answer "Assholes sued me for trying to write a better point graph fitter. Don't buy it" while gaining nothing useful.
Re:Worst move ever, by PotatoFarmer · 2009-09-21 04:37 · Score: 3, Informative

In expansions (and even moreso in new games), Blizzard has identified the enthusiasts' interests and worked to further enable them. Their appreciation of enthusiasts and community has them labeled as a Smart Company in my book.
It's ironic that you use Blizzard as your example here, given that their response to bnetd established the precedent of using the DMCA to shut down reverse engineering.
Re:Worst move ever, by UncleTogie · 2009-09-21 04:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

TI doesn't care what programs you write, in assembly OR TI-Basic. They do care if you overwrite their OS.
Funny, I don't remember agreeing to a EULA when I first opened the box and powered it up. Their right to ANYthing concerning their equipment ended when I bought it.

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Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
Re:Worst move ever, by Jahava · 2009-09-21 04:48 · Score: 4, Interesting
What makes them so smart? Is TI selling more calculators because you can play games on them, or because some kid has to buy one to do his homework? I had a TI-85 in high school and played games all through whatever math class I was in at the time, but I would have had one regardless of whether it did anything other than my homework.
My stance on the subject is that TI would stand to benefit financially to one degree or another from any and all of the following:
- Enthusiasts who prefer TI calculators because they are easier to explore
- Increased interest in a TI calculator because an enthusiast has built software for it that doesn't exist on other calculators
- Increased overall interest in TI calculators due to available software
- Increased quality of their product by observing the nature and intent of third-party changes
- Increased usage of their products by third parties (professors, etc.) who have co-opted their functionality into other areas
- Greater competitive edge through direct exposure to user feedback, also by monitoring enthusiast communities
- Increased sales of higher-powered (i.e., more expensive) calculators since they are capable of more resource-intensive modifications than the lower models
- Classes they can sell to schools about modifying their calculators
- Literature that they can sell on the subject of modifying their products
- Identification of quality persons from the enthusiast community for future hire
This is off the top of my head. As one who participated in the ticalc.org modding community when it was all Z-shell and assembly hacks, I can say for sure that I benefited from third-party applications and learned quite a lot by programming low-level software. A lot has changed since then, but I can attest firsthand to the benefits of an open TI calculator.
Really, though, what does TI have to lose? Has the enthusiast community as it stands actually harmed them? If so, I'm not aware of it.
Re:Worst move ever, by Hatta · 2009-09-21 05:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

Personally, I'm appalled that kids are still using the TI-83, and it still costs about $100. I used a TI-83 in high school, almost 15 years ago, and it cost $100 back then too. Haven't we had any advances in calculator technology since then?
Someone needs to get the DOJ on these guys for anti-trust violations. This is clear evidence of an abusive monopoly.

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Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!

Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 drivers? by gblues · 2009-09-21 03:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

Texas Instruments makes damn fine graphing calculators, but would it be so hard to write a damn x64 driver? I can't use the USB interface with either my home PC or my laptop because both are running x64 (7 Pro on the desktop, Vista Home Premium on the laptop). And I'll be damned if I go back to 32 bits just to make the calculator happy.

I did googling and didn't find anything existing; has anyone tackled writing a homebrew x64 USB driver? I think all the information needed is already out there, but I don't have the time/motivation to write the driver myself (especially having never written a driver before).

Streisand Effect by quanticle · 2009-09-21 03:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

You'd have thought that Texas Instruments would have learned when the Blu-Ray consortium tried to stop the spread of the '09 F9 ...' key.

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We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it

Re:Streisand Effect by spinkham · 2009-09-21 03:47 · Score: 4, Informative

And just in case you forget how badly that went down, here's a reminder...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSQIoXf294E

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Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.

Exactly. by zippthorne · 2009-09-21 03:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

If they want to be as successful as HP calculators, they need to do more to encourage more enthusiasts...

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Can you be Even More Awesome?!

Re:Exactly. by plague911 · 2009-09-21 03:40 · Score: 4, Informative

They are more successful than HP calculators. As a MS/Phd engineering student I haven't seen a HP calculator in 6 years except at a store.
Re:Exactly. by virtualXTC · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

I still have my HP48G (sitting right in front of me). I can't stand working with non-RPN calcuators.
Re:Exactly. by clone53421 · 2009-09-21 04:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

If I were to teach a math class at any level, there would be no calculators of any sort needed.
That's how the good ones teach, anyway. A calculator would have been of very little help in most of the no-calculator exams I took. It was more useful on the homework, but you still had to show your work.

--
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Re:Exactly. by klapaucjusz · 2009-09-21 06:14 · Score: 5, Funny

Hang on - it's 2009 and we're still arguing about calculators?
Vi sucks.

DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by zavyman · 2009-09-21 03:39 · Score: 5, Informative

It's highly unlikely that the factors of an RSA private key are subject to copyright protection. Therefore the groups may have a viable claim for DMCA misrepresentation under subsection (f):

(f) MISREPRESENTATIONS- Any person who knowingly materially misrepresents under this section--
(1) that material or activity is infringing, or
(2) that material or activity was removed or disabled by mistake or misidentification,
shall be liable for any damages, including costs and attorneys' fees, incurred by the alleged infringer, by any copyright owner or copyright owner's authorized licensee, or by a service provider, who is injured by such misrepresentation, as the result of the service provider relying upon such misrepresentation in removing or disabling access to the material or activity claimed to be infringing, or in replacing the removed material or ceasing to disable access to it.

Texas Instruments may just have Diebolded itself.

Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by Nursie · 2009-09-21 03:50 · Score: 5, Informative

Copyright?
Wouldn't this be more likely come under the circumvention of cryptographic protection techniques which the DMCA also outlaws?
Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by zavyman · 2009-09-21 04:03 · Score: 4, Informative

Two sections of Title 17 (Copyrights) are relevant. 17 USC 512 (safe harbor) and 17 USC 1201 (anti-circumvention). The notice is styled as one under 17 USC 512:

It has come to our attention that the web site www.brandonw.net, contains material and/or links to material that violate the anti-circumvention provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA"). This letter is to notify you, in accordance with the provisions of the DMCA, of these unlawful activities. Pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the DMCA, we request that you remove any whole or partial reproductions of and/or disable links to the following:
...
I hereby confirm that I have a good faith belief that use of the Illegal Material in the manner complained of in this letter is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law, that the information in this letter is accurate, and that, under penalty of perjury, I am authorized to act on behalf of TI, the owner of the exclusive rights in the TI-83 Plus operating system software that are allegedly misappropriated using unlawful methods.
TI appears to be claiming that the copyright in the TI-83 Plus operating system software is infringing. This therefore appears to be a notice under 512(c)(3). Anti-circumvention is a totally different section of the copyright code, 1201. There is no takedown procedure for access control circumvention materials.
But with regards to anti-circumvention claims: It appears that TI is claiming that the signing keys circumvent a "technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title." This is a term of art.

(A) to "circumvent a technological measure" means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and
(B) a technological measure "effectively controls access to a work" if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.
Are signing keys necessary to gain access to the TI 83 Plus operating system binary? As far as I know, no. My understanding is that they are only used to prepare operating system images for installation onto the calculator.
Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by Cubeman · 2009-09-21 04:32 · Score: 4, Informative

The keys are not required to access the binary. There is no encryption; the keys are just to verify that the OS image hasn't been corrupted. The entire binary has always been completely accessible from both the PC side (before transferring) as well as on the calculator. Furthermore, the community has had the ability to load its own operating systems on the TI-83 Plus since 2002. TI had stated in 2004 that they had no problem with independent third-party OSes being loaded, as long as (understandably) no one distributed modified TI OS files. The only new development here is that third-party operating systems can now be loaded onto the calculators without any hacks or preparation. In other words, they can be loaded in a user-friendly manner like the TI OS is loaded, and transmitted from calculator-to-calculator without having to run a special program beforehand. This is a huge deal in gaining acceptance for third-party operating systems, because end users do not want to have to pull out a battery during validation or run a strange program before loading the OS. They'd rather just click and be done.

Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Xtravar · 2009-09-21 03:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

1. Get a USB traffic sniffing application
2. Run the TI driver on a Windows XP VM and record the traffic as you transfer files.
3. Write your own driver with libusb-win32 and pray that it works
4. Become hero to the TI community!!!

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subterfuge by davidwr · 2009-09-21 03:46 · Score: 5, Funny

Someone in TI's legal dept. who knows what the Streisand Effect is wants these keys publicized.

Well, we can hope that's the reason.

--
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.

Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by whoisisis · 2009-09-21 03:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

Try TiLP 2. Made by said TI-homebrew community.

Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by AresTheImpaler · 2009-09-21 03:48 · Score: 3, Informative

Have you tried installing a 32 bit OS on a VM, like say, virtualbox to talk to the calculator? I know it's not exactly what you want, but it might do the trick.....

DRM in a calculator? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:50 · Score: 5, Funny

I'm shocked to hear that TI is even bothering to sign things. What exactly could be in a calculator that you would want to protect from hackers or end users?

"Oh no, a virus has replaced all my Fourier transforms with Laplace transforms!"

Re:DRM in a calculator? by ThePyro · 2009-09-21 04:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

One of the reasons that TI signs things is to provide a form of copy protection for the 3rd-party applications which are sold via the online store. The calculator operating system will not run a flash application for which it does not currently have a license. The operating system binary is signed so that you can't tamper with it in order to disable the copy-protection. A modified operating system could potentially run flash applications without a license.
As far as user-created software goes, TI doesn't really care what you run on the calculator. It's only non-free flash apps that concern them.

Its the usual castle gate mentality by Viol8 · 2009-09-21 03:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

While the TI engineers would probably be happy to share the info, a bunch of management suits still living in the 1960s want to keep everything secret and in-house because they're sure They Know Best as to what everyone wants. Well we all know where this sort of blinkered thinking leads - users eventually just give you the finger and move elsewhere especially if a large part of your core market is the very type of hacker (in the old sense of the word) that they want to stop.

And who are they kidding anyway , these are just fscking calculators! They can't even argue that installing new stuff on them is going to lose them any income anyway. Its not like the average user upgrades his calculator OS every year!

Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by TheRaven64 · 2009-09-21 04:00 · Score: 3, Informative

The weird thing is that TI is actually quite good about open source support in other divisions. They make OMAP reference platforms available at very reasonable price (BeagleBoard, OMAPzoom) for open source hackers.

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 04:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

The TI calculator division is all about placating teachers and standardized testing agencies. If it's too easy to install custom software in a relatively undetectable fashion, then the calculators won't be approved for testing and classroom use.
It's not TI that's the control freaks - it's the teachers.
Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by ElSupreme · 2009-09-21 04:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

I had a TI-83 in high school. I wrote tons of programs (although they all just used TI Basic) to do various math functions. I also made a "Memory Cleared" program. I hated clearing all my programs ever 3 weeks when a test came around.

I didn't use pre-made programs during my tests, I did make programs during the tests to do repeat processes. But I got to keep my Drug Wars and Indycar racer games, along with all my other math programs after the test.

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My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by fermion · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

It is about teachers and standardized testing, and that is one of the reasons why the software in the TI calculator needs to be secure. But it is unlikely the primary reason. Prior to use on test, TI has an application that clear the calculator to essentially factory state. This application only runs from the calculator installed, and cannot be transferred to other calculators. This calculator could be modified to actually reinstall an OS, which would be time consuming, but the safest thing to do for testing. Control freak teachers do run the application. Most don't. Real control freak teachers don't even let students use a calculator because there is nothing a calculator can do that a students should not be able to do faster. It takes more time to put in the equation of a graph or table than to just find the roots or the regression equation by hand. The problem is those middle of the road teachers that have sympathy for the students who can't add two integers, but still want them to, at least in some cases, manipulate variables by hand.
The desire to keep the code secure is in a fact a desire to insure sales. For instance, the TI application for the computer is not free, and, IIRC, not site licensed. If the ROM were available, like it is on most of the HP calculators, then someone could easily develop an OSS application and make drive TI sales away. I know that some applications are available, but they require a calculator to download the ROM, and the solutions are not as elegant as the HP calculator.

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"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by I'm+not+really+here · 2009-09-21 04:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

If it's that much of a concern, why don't the schools have a set of TI calculators that are available for standardized tests? Stagger the testing properly, and you don't actually need one for each student. This way, the student has their own calculator, can do whatever they want with it for homework, etc, but for testing purposes, they are required to use the school's TI hardware and software.

If the school is concerned with the costs involved, I'm sure they could work a deal with TI to receive the "in-class only" calculators for free or at cost. I mean, if you think about it, free (pirated) copies of Windows is the main reason for the success of the Windows operating system... most likely, having easy access to TI calculators in school would get students comfortable with them, and would likely boost TI's market share... it's a win-win situation, and TI can wholeheartedly support the hack/homebrew crowd at the same time without worrying the teachers.

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Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by s73v3r · 2009-09-21 05:03 · Score: 2, Informative

I don't know if I'd put the teachers that don't allow calculators on tests in the "control freak" category. When I was in college, some of the most laid back teachers were of that variety. Typically, they'd make up problems such that you shouldn't need a calculator to solve them, unless you really sucked at arithmetic, in which case they'd have some dumb calculators available.
Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 05:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

If it's too easy to install custom software in a relatively undetectable fashion, then the calculators won't be approved for testing and classroom use.
They're already disallowed by many teachers because students learned they can simply type their notes into the calculator. (Who needs to remember equations when the calculator stores them for you?) The TI-89 and TI-92 are not allowed in ACT tests because they're designed to allow note-taking (the 92 more than the 89, but still). (That particular requirement made my parents buy a new TI-83+, even though I already had a TI-89.)
Honestly I've always disagreed with resistance to calculator use. Why can't I use a calculator to do calculus, or physics? The hard part isn't remembering the equations, anyway; the hard part is remembering which equation to use. Storing the list of equations in the calculator doesn't magically make you know which equation to use, it just helps you remember what the equations are in the first place. Sure, you could probably type notes into the calculator telling you which to use when, but all that effort is going to make you learn it anyway, so it most likely wouldn't make a difference.
I always hated losing points because I transposed two numbers or something somewhere in the calculation (which would not have happened had I been using a calculator), or because I'm simply terrible at doing math by hand. I honestly have no idea how I got a 4 on that AP Calculus test.
If I were hiring someone for a position that required a lot of math, and he proudly declared that he never uses a calculator, I don't think I would hire him. I would want my employees to use calculators - even if only to check their work.
Um... end rant.
Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by CastrTroy · 2009-09-21 05:16 · Score: 2, Informative

There's too much to check for anyway. If you require that the student has a TI-83, they can probably store any number of things in any number of ways. You could store a bunch of cheat notes in some variable. There isn't evough time to walk around to every students desk before the exam and check for the existence of programs anyway. There was 200 students in my Year 1 calculus course in university. They mostly showed up 10 minutes before the exam started. There was no time to verify that they don't have any programs on the TI. Also, there was some required programs to do certain questions. And there wouldn't be any time to verify that it was the proper code running and that there wasn't some special input, that would tell the program to go into some other section of the code, where tons of other functionaliy was available. So our math courses have basically 2 options with this. Make it so that you can do the exam on a TI-30, and only allow these or similar, so that you couldn't program them, and therefore cheat. Or 2, require that they use the TI-86, but design the test such that you assume they are cheating, and make it so that it won't help them anyway.

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Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by SuperMog2002 · 2009-09-21 06:02 · Score: 5, Interesting

I liked what my stats professor in college did: All tests were open book and open note, and you were allowed to use whatever calculator you wanted with whatever programs you wanted. The problems were tuned so that you wouldn't need a fancy calculator to do well, but if you knew this test was going to have Z-tests on it and you brought a program that could do Z-tests for you, more power to you. However, you darn well better be able to read the presented scenario and know off the top of your head that a Z-test is what you need in the first place. There was a strict 50 minute time limit, and if you were using your resources for anything more than a quick formula lookup or computation, you were doomed.

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Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by arb+phd+slp · 2009-09-21 06:35 · Score: 2, Informative

I've found that "completely open-book" is common in statistics courses. I don't think that is the case for other kinds of maths or science courses.

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Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by klapaucjusz · 2009-09-21 07:04 · Score: 2, Funny

what is the answer?
42.

That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by maillemaker · 2009-09-21 04:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

I've been using HP scientific calculators since the 32S (the one that opened up like a book). At the time, in 1989, they were state-of-the-art, and math teachers had no idea that they could do definite and indefinite integration and differentiation.

Now, of course, math teachers have figured out that modern calculators are essentially full-blown computers. The last calculus course I took a year ago did not allow any calculators, but the last time I was in a math class that allowed them only TI calculators were allowed. I could not use my HP50G as it was too powerful and would enable me to cheat.

I think we've seen the end of high-end calculator development because the main market of those devices - college students - can't use them anymore in their classes.

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Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 04:25 · Score: 2, Informative

While math classes like calculus and ODEs typically ban calculators from tests, there are still all kinds of chemistry, physics, and engineering classes where a 50g is both allowed and incredibly useful for homework and tests. More than any other feature, the efficient units system in the 50g really helped me in physics and was a great check that my calculations were correct.
Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, I used an HP48 in my computational methods class and aced the exam. We had to show our work too, so I just programmed the calculator to perform the computations the same as you would long hand, and show each step of the process. All I had to do was copy each screen down as it went. I was finished the 2 hour exam in about 20 minutes. There is no more powerful a calculator than an HP.

From a community perspective. by Deathlizard · 2009-09-21 04:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've been working with Ti calcs and the Ti community for years, and Frankly, I feel that Ti have been giving us programmers a slap in the face.

First off, they keep resurrecting the Ti-82 series of calcs with endless versions and case updates while killing off more capable OS designs like the 85 series. I have a feeling the 92 series (which inclueds the 89, 89ti, and Voyage 200) is next.

Then, they remove program editing from their windows app as well as letting it stagnate with documented link bugs still included.

Finally, they release the Nspire. The Nspire is such a leap backward from their previous calcs that they actually had to make a version that emulates the 83. (again with the 82 love) It has a neutered programming language. no draw support. no 3d support, removed math functions, no proper input or output channels, ETC. I don't know who this calculator is going to appeal to. K-12 don't want it cause its more expensive than an 83, Higher education doesn't want it cause it's neutered vs other calcs in it's class and programmers don't want to touch it cause it's basically useless with no SDK or useful programming language to speak of.

I could probably talk about the SDK and it's lack of updates and support as well, but I'd rather let the Ti Flash community programmers do the talking here.

I'm not a fan of the key facoring, because it's just going to make Ti clamp down on the community that keeps their calc business (and my hobby) alive, but I don't blame the Ti Community, Not when Ti listenes more to a 9th grade teacher whining about little Johnny playing games on his calc instead of the professor or engineer thats using his calc as a cheap portable way of processing a complex algorythm or data probe accqsition device.

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No HP??? by volpe · 2009-09-21 04:48 · Score: 5, Funny

hp is not supported at all

I that they so shortsighted would be can't believe!

Re:No HP??? by ancientt · 2009-09-21 06:26 · Score: 2, Informative

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation

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Re:No HP??? by volpe · 2009-09-21 06:28 · Score: 5, Informative

Oh well, I figured everyone would get it. HP Calculators use "Reverse Polish Notation" (RPN), also known as "postfix notation". Unlike ordinary "infix notation" calculators, in which you put the operator between the two operands, HP calculators take both operands followed by the operator, thereby eliminating the need for parenthesizing an expression. So, where you might enter "5 * ( 3 + 4 ) =" on an infix calculator, you'd enter "5 [enter] 3 [enter] 4 [enter] + * " on an HP calculator. Every time you enter a number, it gets pushed on the stack. Every operator pops the top two items off the stack, performs the operation, and pushes the result on the stack.
One can write English sentences the same way if one considers the verb to be the operator, while the subject and direct object are the two operands. Thus, what I wrote was the RPN equivalent of "I can't believe that they would be so shortsighted!".
Re:No HP??? by naoursla · 2009-09-21 11:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm going to try to check your work.
We can construct a parse tree for a sentence by recursively grouping two groups into a single group. I believe the following is the correct parse tree for your original sentence.
{I {(can't believe) [that [they ((would be) (so shortsighted))]]}}
You want verbs to be the operators. "believe" and "be" are the verbs. "can't" and "would" are auxillery verbs. Those would be unary operators that act on a simple verb. But since a verb is acting as an operator, it is tough to enter a verb and then an auxillery. I'll treat the entire verb as a single unit (if I had a 'operate' button instead of requiring a symbol to operate then we could break apart the verb phrases). How does "that" fit in? I'm going to make "that" a unary operator to complete the predicate target. While I'm at it, "so" is an operator on a noun.
I -> (literal)
they -> (literal)
shortsighted (literal)
so -> ("so" + "shortsighted")
would be -> "they" + "would be" + "so shortsighted"
that -> "that" + "they would be so shortsighted"
can't believe -> "I" + "can't believe" + "that they would be so shortsighted"
I they shortsighted so would be that can't believe!
vs
I that they so shortsighted would be can't believe!
Pretty close, but I'm going to have to take points off for not considering grouping operations other than S-V-O.

IANAL but TI is screwed now by OrangeTide · 2009-09-21 05:58 · Score: 3, Funny

Sending out false DMCA notices opens up TI to some very serious penalties. And this point every member of the team can hire and lawyer and get TI to pay for it, plus be charged with some additional fines. The DMCA in this instance is not a gray area at all. There is no copyrighted being circumvented by this perfectly legal reverse engineering, and a kind of reverse engineering expressly allowed by the DMCA itself.

I am guessing TI executives decided they didn't like something, and forced their lawyers to make a very bad legal decision. Using the DMCA to bully people works, but only if you don't trip over the DMCA itself as TI has done.

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“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire

Re:Woosh by Haxzaw · 2009-09-21 06:09 · Score: 2, Funny

"As a MS/Phd engineering student..." There are several clues in that statement as to why he didn't get it.

Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by arkane1234 · 2009-09-21 06:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

"Just saying..."?

wow.. just.. wow...
Here I thought that some dizzy bitch on some newscast saying that would be enough to make everyone realize how stupid it sounds.
I stand corrected.

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QUIT buying TI calculators. When i buy something by zymano · 2009-09-21 07:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

I fucking own it. i will install anything i want on it.

Everyone has a right to the inner workings of something they own god damnit.

You'd lose money with me by Perky_Goth · 2009-09-21 09:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

I bought (well, my parents) two calculators when I needed them because I could install whatever I felt like at the time. Without it, I probably wouldn't have cared.
On the other hand, I see that what you sell is basically what I bought 10 years ago, so that tells me a lot about your business sense.
However, stagnated companies usually die, no matter how much they squelch. At least the OMAP is cool.

"High end" calculators? by rdebath · 2009-09-21 10:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

I haven't looked a 'high end' calculators in years, I use computers all the time. I kind of knew they were still around but really, these machines are terrible!

My expectations were, a modern cheap processor ... like the arm, possibly underclocked for power consumption; well looks like the HPs have that. An infinite amount of memory; well probably 64M each of RAM and flash. That's infinite for a calculator. And a small, but usable screen, probably 320x200x16(4) grayscale, (colour's supposed to consume a lot more power). And a pair of USB cables that allow you to connect to a PC or an external flash drive. The PC software would let you copy the entire calculator and run and program it on the PC (emulator) or the actual hardware.

Well, These TI's with a z80 processor, sorry you only use a z80 mask nowadays if you're a complete skinflint, "high end" gear uses processors that are easier to program. The 68k sounds reasonable; but it's probably a powerhog compared to the Arm (most 32bit+ processors are).

Probably the thing I'm most shocked about is the screen, those 132x64x2 displays are at least 15 years old and have never been big enough for a reasonable graph. But here we are stuck in the 90's or even the 80's.

Quite simply these machines should be two chips, a screen, a load of buttons, usb connector and a battery.
They should no longer be expensive; but are being sold for about the same prices as the smaller netbooks. Or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2X_Wiz

They are all so very disappointing.

A long time ago... by okmijnuhb · 2009-09-21 11:37 · Score: 2, Funny

a classmate showed me a computation on a scientific calculator in about 1983, which caused the calculator to go blank for about 15 seconds before outputting the answer which might have been an error message.
Does anyone know or remember that one?

Re:A long time ago... by toddestan · 2009-09-21 13:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

Probably the factorial function, as that's about the most computationally intensive thing you can do on a non-programmable scientific calculator. Try 69! as that's the biggest you can do assuming that the calculator maxes out at an exponent of 99. Usually takes several seconds to several tens of seconds on slower calculators to run.

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