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Vegetative Patients Can Still Learn
enigma48 writes to mention that a collaborative study between the Universities of Buenos Aires and Cambridge have demonstrated that individuals in a vegetative state can still learn and demonstrate at least a partial consciousness. Their findings are reported in a recent online edition of Nature Neuroscience. "It is the first time that scientists have tested whether patients in vegetative and minimally conscious states can learn. By establishing that they can, it is believed that this simple test will enable practitioners to assess the patient's consciousness without the need of imaging. The abstract is also available in the advance issue of Nature."
You might take this with a grain of salt as this Scientific American article points out it relies on fMRI (with the researcher also expressing caution). The same sort of scans were used to recently show that dead salmon think and also was called into question before that. From what I understand, there's a potentially huge problem with the statistical correlation done on the data to reach the images and conclusion (basically you are able to decide how much of a result you get). Given these sequential very controversial findings, I think it's time to push for research on these tools and research processes to ensure they are robust and reporting correct findings.
My work here is dung.
Scientists have found that some teens in a vegetative and minimally conscious state, despite lacking the means of reporting awareness themselves, can learn and thereby demonstrate at least a partial consciousness. By using classical Pavlovian conditioning, the researchers played a tone immediately prior to shotgunning cannabis into a patient's open mouth. After some time training, the patients would start to inhale when the tone played but before the shotgun.
I learned alot from Veggie Tales. Correlation?
I think the editorial staff of slashdot proves otherwise.
I can still teach my users to power cycle their own damned computers.
I have been in many a long lecture that has put me in a vegetative state.
I managed to graduate, so I must have leaned something.
Vegetative Patients Can Still Learn
Well, let's be honest, no one like to admit this and we "support" them for their right to make their own decisions. But, most of us consider it a real lack of judgment, and making that conscious decision probably says a lot about their overall intelligence.
But, I have never felt that someone was beyond hope just because they will only eat vegetables!
{devilish grin}
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
for the editors of /.
oogly boogly!
What? I thought this was the Brian Eno thread
Things they can learn to obey: "Lie down", "Stay", "Quiet".
We've had stories of Zombie Salmon, rats that walk despite broken spines and now we're told that those with no brain activity can learn?!?
Granted, that could be both politicians and zombies, but I'm preparing for the worst: Zombie Politicians. Don't believe me? This one was just a prototype!. They're amongst us, they cannot think, they cannot be stopped, they're learning AND THEY'RE RUNNING THE COUNTRY!
The lunatics were right! We ARE losing the country. Zombie Jesus save us all!
My guess is that we will spend millions of dollars studying this. I really don't understand why someone would want to be kept alive for years because they may learn something. I can only imagine they will learn how it sucks to be kept alive by machines. How do we know they are not experiencing a lot of pain?
What are "vegetative patents" ?
I think with my penis all the time.
My wife is a teacher in a classroom of severely disabled kids. She's had a few that some would call 'vegitative' despite having some awareness of their surroundings.
This study probably won't change anything, because most people decide what does and doesn't count as 'alive' on a gut level. You'll even find people way at the ends of the bell curve, saying relatively high-functioning people should be put to sleep or insisting that someone whose brain has been removed entirely is still alive somewhere "in there".
Personally, I lean to the "still alive" end of things - possibly further than logic anc science would support.
More likely than not, ppl like Frist will claim that this is proof of why he was right about Schiavo.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
... Vegetative *plants* can still learn ?
Anyone else seeing this somehow being dragged into a few debates on abortion(mental capactity of fetuses etc.).
For the fun of it, I googled "vegetable state" and here's what I found: "The research suggests that some of these patients may be misdiagnosed as being unconscious, when, in fact, they are aware of their surroundings but trapped in their immobile bodies." Here's the link: http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2007/10/breaking_through_to_.html
Won't even be able to eat a fucking carrot without these yobs throwing paint on me.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Holy cow, where did you learn that stuff? From Paul MacLean? None of that reflects anywhere near current neurobiological evidence, let alone terminology! And I think the Neo-Cortex must only exist inside the Matrix, most everyone that's not a loon from the 80s calls it the cerebral cortex, or simply cortex.
The cortex is actually responsible for muscle control and movement patterning, disinhibited in the basal ganglia, through sensory proprioception from the cerebellum. It's all nicely integrated. The cortex has nothing to do with cognition. Although it does store memory I would not consider memory to be the fundamental element of cognition.
At any rate, you are correct in the idea that there is not one core region of processing. For instance, the spinal cord itself is actually a smart cable and does its own processing and reflex computations, so the fact that these patients anticipated a negative stimulus is not in and of itself evidence of cognitive function. Having not read anything but the abstract, if the aversive stimulus was in fact an eye-puff, that is a strong indicator that the brainstem, cerebellum and parts of the cerebral cortex are intact and functioning. If it were a foot stimulus, that says little about the brain. The classic experiment of the hinter-years involving a cat with its brain removed except for the brain stem and spinal cord, and yet the cat possessed the autonomic reflexes required to walk on a treadmill when properly positioned, is evidence of this. However, the article probably goes in depth about how this is viable for fundamental brain function, as is indicated by the abstract.
Sure, we got high during breaks, but it doesn't mean we didn't learn anything. We displayed aversive avoidance behavior whenever a hot coal would fall on our fingers. Clear evidence of neural activity.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Ok, so the vegetative people can learn...
That doesn't solve our biggest problem. What do we do with all the none vegetative people who cannot learn? You know... those people who think "intellegent design" is biology, and can drive a car, own a gun, and vote.
An attorney, cross-examining the local coroner, queried, "Before you signed the death certificate had you taken the man's pulse?"
"No," the coroner replied.
"Well, then, did you listen for a heart beat?"
The coroner answered, "No."
"Did you check for respiration? Breathing?", asked the attorney.
Again the coroner replied, "No."
"Ah," the attorney said, "So when you signed the death certificate you had not taken any steps to make sure the man was dead, had you?"
The coroner rolled his eyes, and shot back "Counselor, at the time I signed the death certificate the man's brain was sitting in a jar on my desk. But I can see your point. For all I know he could be out there practicing law somewhere."
If you're in a vegetative state, doesn't that mean you really can't learn -- or do anything else except keep your heart pumping and your lungs breathing?
What did they use for the control group in the study? Dead fish heads? C-level executives? Former presidents?
I'm not doubting or disqualifying other states of mind, but let's hear a round of cheer for the one that most people percieve - wakeful thought and cognizant awareness; the idea of self and the myriad of directions it takes us in.
Chances are, you've pondered the notion at one time or another, 'I wonder if anyone else is thinking this right now', or 'I wonder how many other people have thought what I'm thinking'. What a supreme notion, to be able to have recursive thoughts where we can examine our own thoughts and compare them to the thoughts of others. Suddenly we're not thinking about the object anymore, we're thinking about thinking about the object and pondering if others have done the same thing.
Hurray for the executive control system of the mind!
And quiet effectively as well. I have never seen one repeat the mistake that killed him.
Yes, and along that line of thinking... unless all neurons are dead, you should never be surprised that some conditioning is still going on. Neurons adjust their levels, we know that. The interesting question is, is enough still going on in there to for it to be a person? If so, could we still make contact or even wake them up? As it is, all we've seen is conditioning that is slightly less complex than the M+ key on my pocket calculator.
Of course the Schiavo case is the first to come to mind, but doesn't it seem that the term "persistent vegetative state" is becoming less well defined? It seems that survivors making end of life decisions for loved ones have to deal with very murky information.
they don't happen to mean the these kind of patients learning? It sounds dangerous.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
We prefer to call them "CEOs". And we know they can still learn once promoted, we constantly get idiotic requests from them which we all know comes from a golf buddy or vendor.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
What are "vegetative patents" ?
I suspect those are the types that are filed before the invention is actually complete (not even necessarily in regards to the invention ever being completed) - and they can indeed earn quite a bit.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
This isn't cognition, but rather reflexive. The brain is an organic computer and it is supreme at pattern recognition. This would be only a tad higher than keeping the heart beating and other involuntary actions. Just because it is conditioned doesn't mean there is precognition or reasoning.
I would tastelessly posit that you could program someone (or multiple someones) to preform a rudimentary calculation. If true, then we would have actual wet-ware to program. The question is then, what is the longest program you could condition someone into? We might be able to beat the NP-complete barrier with wetware.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
This means we can't call GW a vegetable anymore -- it'd be an insult to anyone in a vegetative state!
If I were to ever become a vegetable I ask only one thing...please read me all the kung-fu books while I'm out so when I come back to 100% (because I will) I can wake up being the most bad ass ever, like Neo in the Matrix. That's not to much to ask for, is it?
Read, learn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocortex
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25283
Coming soon - pyrogyra
The following formal lexical systems (loons from the 80's) define an area of the brain distinctly as the neocortex:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/cgi/mesh/2007/MB_cgi?mode=&term=Neocortex
http://braininfo.rprc.washington.edu/synonyms.aspx?questID=2314
http://www.neurolex.org/wiki/Birnlex_2547
synonyms from above:
neopallium, homotypical cortex, isocortex, cerebral neocortex
I thought this was already proven by the existence of public schools.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Does this imply that high school kids might learn?
Sea slugs can learn under classical conditioning; it doesn't require consciousness or even a brain.
Considering that even networks comprising little more than a motor neuron, a sensory neuron, and an excitatory interneuron (a la Aplysia) can `learn', why is this surprising/interesting?
Now, if you want to talk about the maintenance of actual `human-like behaviour' being reason to rethink the position of veggie-people, I'll be willing to talk. But a vegetable is a vegetable--there's a reason we don't treat vegetables like we do humans.
Totally false. G.W. Bush didn't learn anything.
More ammo for idiots to use in court keeping 90 year old grannies on life support for another few more years.
So now, you're sure these were vegetables, not salmon, right?
all of the underlying mechanisms does not make love or any other feelings/emotions any less real.
We are more than the sum of our parts, no matter what any reductionist arrogantly proclaims.