The Informant Is Back At Work

theodp writes "Fortune catches up with former ADM exec and whistleblower Mark Whitacre, who talks about watching his life on screen in the dark comedy, The Informant!. Among other things, Whitacre apologizes to Fortune for duping the magazine in a 1995 interview when his bipolar-fueled compulsive lying was in its full glory. Thanks to a Ph.D. he earned from Cornell in nutritional biochemistry, and an understanding CEO who was involved in prison ministry, Whitacre is now COO of Cypress Systems, where he's been working since spending nine years in prison for embezzlement. And yes, his wife really did stand by him through the wild ride."

Comments

the system works!

[Trepidity]

Glad to see that someone who stole $9 million is able to once again serve as a corporate executive.

Re:the system works!

[MickyTheIdiot]

well.. the system works from THEIR point of view. What more do you want?

Re:the system works!

[Anpheus]

11.5 million. Wait, err... ;)

Re:the system works!

[Ozlanthos]

I guess they really have managed to get the prison system to be more about "reforming" inmates, as opposed to simply "incarcerating" them. He goes from being a convicted (for of all things..embezzlement) felon, to Chief "Operating" Officer. Almost makes me want to get busted for assault with a deadly weapon, extortion, and sodomy. Then I could be "reformed" into "CEO"-material!

-Oz

Re:the system works!

[Geoffrey.landis]

Glad to see that someone who stole $9 million is able to once again serve as a corporate executive.

Well, he's an executive at a small company that sells selenium as a treatment for cancer, which is a treatment of very dubious efficiacy. ("dubious" in that the actual clinical trials didn't show any improvement.)

Re:the system works!

[mkell85]

Wait..... I thought it was $11 million. Was it $9 million or $11 million Mark?

Re:the system works!

[Coda A27]

Glad to see that someone who stole $9 million is able to once again serve as a corporate executive.

He served eight years in prison and, after finishing his sentence, found gainful employment with an open-minded employer with the skillset he possesses. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

There isn't anything wrong with that. The man served his time, and he's a productive member of society again. The comments for this story are, unfortunately, going to be spearheaded by individuals who don't have the talents to serve as an effective executive in the first place. Thus, we get to read a hundred different spins on the "but he committed a crime" theme, all fueled by basic jealousy. Interestingly, this is the same crowd that seems to have no problem celebrating Kevin Mitnick's turnaround and subsequent success.

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

I guess they really have managed to get the prison system to be more about "reforming" inmates, as opposed to simply "incarcerating" them.

Everything that I've read about the U.S. penal system indicates the exact opposite. Things have been getting much worse for people in U.S. prisons over the last 20 years, and the trend continues. His is the exceptional case. Most prisoners can't afford to get PhDs. I wonder where he got the money and found the time for education like that (a PhD no less!); most prison jobs pay slavery wages.

Re:the system works!

[Rary]

Most prisoners can't afford to get PhDs. I wonder where he got the money and found the time for education like that (a PhD no less!); most prison jobs pay slavery wages.

He didn't get his PhD in prison. He had it long before his time at ADM.

Re:the system works!

[Runaway1956]

criminal - - officer - - criminal - - officer - - criminal - - officer

I don't know. It just doesn't have the proper ring. Let's try again.

felon - - officer - - felon - - officer - - felon - - officer

Maybe it's just me, but I can't get it to sound right. Maybe we should get West Point and Annapolis to start recruiting from Sing Sing, and see how it works. Maybe in the future, maybe the military can hold courts martial, and sentence the convicted to serving as officers.

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

He served eight years in prison and, after finishing his sentence, found gainful employment with an open-minded employer with the skillset he possesses. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Interesting how people (almost) always label me as socially dysfunctional because I don't lie (or cheat and steal). Interesting also how people don't think that there is anything wrong with a person who abuses his position of authority and profits from that abuse and is later rewarded with a job, and people like you claim there is nothing wrong. I've been turned down jobs because I didn't have any good references. Employers don't like me because I tend to want to follow the rules (in a chemical plant I worked at people got upset because I didn't want to dump chemicals down the drain, at a call center job people got upset because I didn't lie to the customers to get them off the phone, etc and so on). I'm very anti-social that way, and when I try to be dishonest like everybody else it makes me feel so physically and psychologically uncomfortable that I can't keep it up. People like this executive certainly have the right psychological make-up to succeed in life.

The last person who made a remark similar to yours got a +5 Insightful moderation. I've seen the same type of thing at work; people that I've "seen" stealing and cheating get promoted, while I end up getting terminated. I guess maybe it's my inability to demonize nice and honest people as being anti-social that will also make me into a loser with a bad attitude. It is my inability to value shrewd business practices that will keep people like me unemployed or marginally employed, while people like this crook will always be gainfully employed in very high paying jobs. They are certainly a lot smarter than I am.

Re:the system works!

[timeOday]

You are projecting your envy of rich people, whom you consider superior to yourself, onto others. Some people think our system is flawed because reaching the top requires a callous disregard for others. Even if you don't seriously consider the idea of them being right, you should at least seriously consider the idea that people who say this genuinely believe it.

Re:the system works!

[Trepidity]

This man clearly did not have "the talents to serve as an effective executive in the first place" either, since one of the very basic skills required in order to serve effectively in that position is not stealing from your company. His performance in his position was worse than leaving the position empty.

Re:the system works!

[jdpars]

You're really building yourself up to be this honorable but persecuted person, but you're really not. You've created an excessive moral code that is outside social norms just like someone who could never tell the truth. The inability to function well in society is just as morally wrong as telling small lies. While I thank you for not dumping chemicals down the drain, there is certainly a better way to respond than "No, I won't do it." Perhaps, "This is not SOP. We're going to do it the right way." And then getting something done. When all you do is hold up the system, you ARE the problem.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting how people (almost) always label me as socially dysfunctional because I don't lie

Because they're right. Lying is a requirement for being socially functional. As an example, it's a common situation for most people who are insecure about some thing (say, the way they look) to ask someone they know for their opinion... if you tell them the truth, you are by definition being socially dysfunctional.

There's nothing wrong with being insecure about something, and so someone who is insensitive to that insecurity and seems to blame other people for being insensitive should seek professional help. Seriously - you need it.

Interesting also how people don't think that there is anything wrong with a person who abuses his position of authority and profits from that abuse

See, now you're just engaging in spurious logic (besides the part where you turned "paid his debt to society by completing a 9 year prison sentence" into simply "later".)

Show me people who honestly think that there's nothing wrong with someone abusing his position.

I've been turned down jobs because I didn't have any good references.

That's most probably because you're socially dysfunctional. If you were socially functional, you would be able to get good references. Most people value integrity very highly, however you're unable to see the difference between integrity and your own social dysfunction.

I don't cheat or steal (just like you), and yet I have never left a job where I was unable to get a reference. In fact, during the past 15 years, I've never left a job where I *needed* a reference. I've always had a minimum of two "open" offers available to me, and the reason is because people value my honesty.

Employers don't like me because I tend to want to follow the rules

Anecdotes aside, it's most likely that they didn't like you before you refused to disobey them, rather than because of it. If you're as socially dysfunctional as you claim, you probably offended them long before that.

I'm very anti-social that way, and when I try to be dishonest like everybody else it makes me feel so physically and psychologically uncomfortable that I can't keep it up.

Co-operating with people around you is not the same as being "dishonest". The fact that you see them both as the same thing speaks volumes about your level of dysfunction.

Clue for you: most people are as honest. If you believe others are dishonest, then the problem is with you, not with them.

People like this executive certainly have the right psychological make-up to succeed in life.

No, actually. People like you have the wrong psychological make-up to succeed, because you're unable to see that you're emotionally stunted.

Do yourself a favour and get some psychological counselling. You're not doing yourself (or anyone else) any favours by trying to convince yourself that you're OK and everyone else is dysfunctional.

Re:the system works!

[timmarhy]

kiven's situation is vastly different.

this guy STOLE 11.5 million from his employer, then went on to accuse the FBI of all kinds of bullshit. he's a border line nut job as well as a rotten theif.

kevin on the other hand never stole a cent from anyone, just hacked a bunch of company's system to see how they worked. his only crime was making them and the FBI look like idiots.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

the reason is because people value my honesty.

If people valued honesty we wouldn't need whistleblower laws: corporations would have their HR departments lining up around the block to hire such an upstanding citizen.

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

You are projecting your envy of rich people, whom you consider superior to yourself, onto others.

That would be an interesting point, if it had any validity to it whatsoever. Did you somehow miss the entire point of my post? Envy (or jealousy) of "rich people" is absurd. I earn a healthy salary, and I'm quite comfortable with my station in life.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound like you have a terrible attitude and personality. That's your problem. I don't lie, cheat or steal at my job, nor do I tolerate those who do. Yet I don't have these problems you do. I have a great job, with great people. And you know, in my ~25 years in the corporate world, that sort of problem really hasn't seemed particularly widespread in my career, unlike what you claim about yours. You really sound like you're the type of person who feels like the world is out to get you, and you know what, no one wants to deal with that crap. I wouldn't hire you either. You're an Eeyore. An emotional drain on everyone around you.

Take responsibility for your own life, stop blaming the world treating you like shit because "you're a good person and no one else is". Your problems with your life and your job are your fault. Not only is it entirely possibly to be an honest, successful person, it's incredibly insulting to the vast majority of us who are to to claim that we couldn't get where we are without being dishonest people. Fuck you.

Re:the system works!

[cawpin]

Interestingly, this is the same crowd that seems to have no problem celebrating Kevin Mitnick's turnaround and subsequent success.

You seem to be forgetting that Mitnick never actually broke any laws. He also never had any nefarious intentions, unlike this guy. Personally, I think time served is time served and he should be left alone, as long as he returned the money.

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

Did you even bother to read the available information on the man's history (perhaps starting with the article)? Had you investigated the matter properly and applied a little critical thinking, I sincerely doubt your reply would have been the same.

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

Are you seriously putting forth the argument that Mitnick never broke the law? History seems to disagree.

Re:the system works!

[cawpin]

The things he confessed to, and was charged with, were not crimes when he did the act. This is why he was held without charge, remember.

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

Because they're right. Lying is a requirement for being socially functional. As an example, it's a common situation for most people who are insecure about some thing (say, the way they look) to ask someone they know for their opinion... if you tell them the truth, you are by definition being socially dysfunctional.

It's been said that I also have poor communication skills. In actuality I don't remember anybody asking me for an opinion, much less on how they look. If I were asked I would tell them the truth. If the truth were to be negative I would be as tactful as possible. With me telling somebody they were ugly and explaining to them how they can make themselves appear better looking, or explaining how people who judge people by looks are stupid and shallow is far better than telling an ugly person that they are beautiful.

I know one person who said that everybody looks down and gossips about a person at work who has body odor. I asked if anybody told him the truth about his body odor and he said no. Apparently nobody wants to be offensive, but instead would rather socialize with each other and gossip. I am not intellectually capable of understanding how dishonesty is good. You are wasting your time trying to explain it too me.

There's nothing wrong with being insecure about something, and so someone who is insensitive to that insecurity and seems to blame other people for being insensitive should seek professional help. Seriously - you need it.

Yeah, I've heard it before. Almost everybody says I'm crazy. Although I don't see how seeking "professional help" will turn me into a liar. It seems to be more of a personality trait than something you can easily be conditioned to learn. I've got quite a lot of social science education and I'm very familiar with the biology of how the brain works; I've yet to see any type of psychiatric drug that can make people lie and steal and cheat like normal people do.

Show me people who honestly think that there's nothing wrong with someone abusing his position.

I'm only aware of me, and some hypocrites. It's obvious that I'm the social deviant here.

That's most probably because you're socially dysfunctional. If you were socially functional, you would be able to get good references. Most people value integrity very highly, however you're unable to see the difference between integrity and your own social dysfunction.

Yes I already know I am socially disfunctional. People have told me before that I should lie on my resume and use "friends" as phony references like everybody else, but I can't bring myself to do it.

I don't cheat or steal (just like you), and yet I have never left a job where I was unable to get a reference.

I spend all my time trying to work when I am at work. I never have time to socialize with people. Of course, asking a Manager (who terminates me) for a reference doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't generally tend to quit jobs. In reality, I generally don't get jobs that require more than one (short) interview. I almost never make it to the qualification tests (of the interview process). One recruiter said she will have me do the test at home (over the Internet), when I got home I phoned her and told her that I never received the login information. She told me she will email it to me. I phoned again and again she said she will email it to me. I went back to the company and said I will do the test on their computers. They said it's better if I did it at home, so I went home and waited for the email. I'm still waiting. This is how most of my interviews go. When they ask me why I've been out of work so long I tell them it is because I was unable to find a job. People say I should lie about this, but I can't bring myself to be dishonest. Pretty much all of my interviews go like this. If I could figure out what I'm doing wrong (without having to lie) it would be h

Re:the system works!

[MorderVonAllem]

He actually got 2 more PhDs while in prison. (I forget what they were for though)

Re:the system works!

[mama1two]

Famous over night

it took time for anyone to realize that he was a liar and a snitch.
Seen an interview and mark seemed more happy that he was known than being out of prison

Re:the system works!

[JustOK]

I think one thesis was on the Forensic Linguistic Analysis of the Cultural Vectors Identified in the Mimetic Genesis of the Mememetic use of "Federal PITA Prison."

Re:the system works!

[iiiears]

@unlametheweak Your ethos has likely brought you inner calm when others have sought narrower selfish goals of praise with little depth or true worth,They have reaped the empty wind. After all, wealth is transitory and fleeting in a lifetime one may be poor then rich then poor again. The items purchased with it worn and discarded before inner calm returns and the internal compass is only steadied after worthwhile truths are learned. Those things gained by "shortcuts" the sacrifice of love, family, community, self are forgotten quickly by those we once sought to impress. What can be said of those individuals that seek praise for the base and corrosive elements of selfishness. Folly? Surely, the value of quiet confidence rooted in the firm fertile soil of a generous deeper truth is far more durable. Honesty, love, hope, compassion, are these things, and can be shared without limit a wealth that is never diminished by generosity. The foundation of relationships more comforting than vanity and manufactured comforts.

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

So far most of the replies to my comments are people making things up about me like this;

You're really building yourself up to be this honorable but persecuted person, but you're really not.

I never claimed to be honourable, not here nor in the workforce. I figured here (on Slashdot) some people may appreciate my comments (in the workforce I've learned to keep quiet except to say "I agree", and "yes boss" and "how high"). I have never claimed to be persecuted either. In terms of honourable and persecuted, I remember one time in grade six many people in the class room were harassing somebody, and the teacher asked for those people to stand up. One of the students told me to stand up, but the teacher told me to sit down. I guess I figured because I didn't try to help this harassed person out I wasn't being Honorable. Unfortunately there are many other areas in my life were I have failed to be honourable as well. For this reason I would never claim to be honourable. On the other hand, I wouldn't go out of my way to be dishonourable.

You've created an excessive moral code that is outside social norms just like someone who could never tell the truth.

I guess I've never had the intelligence to understand how being honest is "an excessive moral code" and how not wanting to hurt people is bad. In fact I've always found it difficult to lie. I've found it difficult to be honest at times as well, but I've never been able to understand why being honest and moral is such an issue with people. I remember one time somebody called me a "goody two shoes", I never thought of myself that way, but it appears that compared to most people I am.

The inability to function well in society is just as morally wrong as telling small lies. While I thank you for not dumping chemicals down the drain, there is certainly a better way to respond than "No, I won't do it." Perhaps, "This is not SOP. We're going to do it the right way." And then getting something done. When all you do is hold up the system, you ARE the problem.

I've never made an issue of it. In fact one time when I even mentioned the fact that I think thinks should be done differently I could tell their was a very negative attitude in the room towards me. Later that month one person even deliberately dumped a can of waste oil into the earth to see my reaction. I said nothing, and I did nothing, because I wasn't interested in having any accidents happen to me at work. I eventually quit that job, but I probably would have been fired anyways (the Foreman was very vocal about the fact that he didn't like me). I suppose it would be natural for people to incorrectly blame me for being disliked by my foreman, but when he was sick off work things seemed so very much nicer, and I tend to work better when people don't make me nervous.

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

You sound like you have a terrible attitude and personality.

Yes, many people have told me that I have a "bad attitude", primarily supervisors. I am unable to understand how I can have a "good attitude" like yourself. In fact, many human resources people and job recruiters just assume I have a bad attitude because I can't seem to find and keep a job.

And then you leave off with

Fuck you.

Like everything else you've said, it makes no sense (except for the part where you claim to have had a successful career in the corporate world; that I can believe). Unlike you I won't tell you to "fuck you" because it doesn't seem right. I wish I could think like you and be successful.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think it's got anything to do with jealousy. High-ranking executives seem to be able to do no wrong sometimes. They ruin companies, then turn around and get golden-parachuted away, or get a new job doing exactly what they are worst at. It seems the only qualification for being a high-level executive is that you've previously held a position of that nature - actual ability be damned. This place is keen on meritocracies, and the way executives are treated in the USA is antithetical to that.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Massive blurb of text

The science says that people who become executives tend to have psychopathic personalities. It seems like you are just going out of your way to demonize me (because of my observations) and rationalize your own lifestyle. It's sad but true, being dishonest is socially functional. The fact that you are playing games with me here indicates that you are probably successful in playing games in the corporate world as well.

Sorry, but this doesn't just apply to "the corporate world". Being dishonest, and especially knowing when to do so and when not to, is pretty much a requirement to function in any part of society, be it work, family, a relationship, friendships, what have you.

Practical example, when I meet someone I know vaguely but haven't seen in a while on the street I'll greet that person with a "hey, how are you, long time no see". That doesn't mean that I have time to actually listen to how he/she is or even that I remotely give a shit, it's just how you greet people. The person on the other side knows that such a question isn't actually an invitation to spend half an hour telling me all his/her woes.

You very closely resemble a number of people I've met over the years, who all were unable to grasp what I like to call the "unwritten rules of society". Heck, it's taken me a ridiculously long amount of time to figure them out myself. If going through life like that is fine by you, that's great, but unless you hit a really lucky break there's a good chance you'll spend a big chunk of your life single, unemployed and miserable.

Science is well and good, and your understanding of biochemical processes is admirable, but in the right here, right now it doesn't seem to be doing you a whole lot of good. Unfortunately, in this particular case, the majority gets to decide what is sane and what isn't.

Re:the system works!

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

The man served his time, and he's a productive member of society again.

Since this logic does not apply to sex offenders, why should it apply to anyone else?

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

1st point I agree with (there are quantitative and qualitative differences for ordinary people).

2nd point doesn't seem relevant here. Social conventions, no matter how they appear, are not necessarily immoral, dishonest or even irrational. In my case I am more likely to want to say "hello" to someone, just out of politeness. Many people often bow there heads when they see me coming (although there's a lot of variability in people).

3rd point;

You very closely resemble a number of people I've met over the years, who all were unable to grasp what I like to call the "unwritten rules of society".

I think I know the rules, or at least some of them. Some I find distasteful (i.e. lying and gossip and stealing are the big ones for me. And yes most everybody steals, though it is more likely to be a can of coke or a staple-remover gadget than a car or a television set. Most people are more irritating than dangerous).

As far as trying to change, I can't see that happening. In many respects I would like to change, but psychiatry or psychology can't substantially change people. Lithium may make me more relaxed around assholes at work, but it won't make me fit in. A psychologist may be able to teach me how to use body language etc to help me better communicate with people, but really, (for example) it's like going to something like Alcoholics Anonymous or going on a diet; it just doesn't work in the long run. No matter how much education or support people have, they will eventually give in to the temptation to be themselves.

Re:the system works!

[Philip_the_physicist]

To prevent misunderstandings: Neither I, nor any of my friends or family, have ever been convicted of anything. For that matter, i have never even been fined or ticketed, so none of this is out of self-interest.

Once someone has paid their debt to society as ordered by a judge/magistrate, they should be free to go about their lives. I do believe that criminal records should be publicly available, for potential employers and so on to inspect, but at the end of the day, the decision to employ someone is a gamble, and any past crimes are just one more factor to take into account.

In this case, his employer thought that he would be good at his job and had turned over a new leaf, and so would be a good risk, and made a judgement call on that basis.

Re:the system works!

[V!NCENT]

Interestingly, this is the same crowd that seems to have no problem celebrating Kevin Mitnick's turnaround and subsequent success.

Which leads me to the conclusion that you conclusions about other people appear to be the wrong conclusions...

I liked the part where the OP tried to be a smartass.

Re:the system works!

[Hurricane78]

He spent NINE freakin YEARS in a prison! Ask yourself this one question: How many years of your life equal $9 million? When would you consider it being forgiven?

To me personally, one single year of my life is worth more than those 9 million.

Additionally, physical reality has no concept called "guilt". It's just cause and effect. So what causes made this happen? And what causes made that happen? And so on, until the beginning of all time. Should we therefore punish the big bang, because we did not look further backwards??
I can forgive murderer, rapists, real terrorists, politicians, evil corporate people, weapon and drug dealers, and everyone else. Because I know that in the end, we're all just the result of what happened to us. And every single one of those people, can become or be someone good again, even after the worst things. If the world around him supports it.

So I'm trying to do my part. Do you?

Re:the system works!

[Kneo24]

I don't seem to recall the person that you're responding to actually snubbing their nose at you. If you're upset that you're not getting anywhere within your own job markets, maybe you should take a deep look at yourself! If you want to be an executive, get the necessary skill set, work for it, and then market yourself. The person that TFA is talking about has repaid their debt to society. If you did something wrong and repaid your debt to society, wouldn't you want someone to give you a second chance?

And you honestly do sound jealous. Hell, I'm a little jealous. I wish I could embezzle money from a company, go to jail, repay my debt to society through jail time, and then get a high paying job again. If you say you aren't jealous, I think you're deluding yourself.

Re:the system works!

[L4t3r4lu5]

If there was ever a comment deserving of a Troll mod, it's the parent.

All with mod points; Read more about the guy than you have heard from the media. This is not a simple issue, with opinions to be based upon hype and paper-selling hyperbole.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhh... the Jedi mindset is strong within you. How bold. Once you give into the dark side, only then can you experience TRUE power. Strike down your foes and complete your journey to be by our side!

I think it boils down to seeing these crimes more and more often, therefore the punishments need to be ramped up... if you were to stick with the current reactive justice system. Overall, I think only sex-offenders are the ones that people _never_ forgive.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds more like a candidate for the U.S. Congress to me.

Re:the system works!

[dkleinsc]

don't have the talents to serve as an effective executive in the first place

You're absolutely right: I lack the "talent" to ruin people's careers, casually rip off customers, embezzle, not give a rat's behind about anyone but myself, and deny reality whenever that reality would be bad for me. Yes, there are executives who don't engage in that sort of behavior, but far more that do (especially at larger firms like ADM).

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

I don't seem to recall the person that you're responding to actually snubbing their nose at you

The person is being a Troll and he got modded +5 Informative. I got modded -1 Troll. The vast majority of the comments here (towards me at least) have been about how people lie, cheat and steal are well socialized, and how it's my fault that I am not able to fit in. If you call my observations "jealous" then either I am totally devoid of reality and completely out of my mind, or the vast majority of people have little sense of morality, and are completely devoid of logic.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, based on my current paycheck, I can tell you that 9 million is worth exactly 120 years at 10 hours a day, 5 days a week... even if he made 4 times as much as me, that's still 30 years.....

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

Yes, there are executives who don't engage in that sort of behavior, but far more that do (especially at larger firms like ADM).

Please present hard evidence to back that claim up. While some executives are certainly bad apples, they are most assuredly in the minority. I'm not getting the sense that you have much experience in this matter.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, he'll not be working a MY company. Because we don't want people around informing on us.

Posted AC for obvious reasons, etc.

Re:the system works!

[Rary]

He actually got 2 more PhDs while in prison. (I forget what they were for though)

Good point. I missed that. He did earn a PhD in Psychology and another in Economics while in prison, in addition to some other degrees.

Re:the system works!

[Floritard]

There are a number of sources of evidence that many top executives today have little scruples and perhaps less intelligence.

You don't think the recent worldwide financial collapse began from the bottom up do you?

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

Did you even bother to read the available information on the man's history (perhaps starting with the article)? Had you investigated the matter properly and applied a little critical thinking, I sincerely doubt your reply would have been the same.

I read the article, and I know that he blamed his conscious and continual lies and theft on "mental illness". It's interesting that he was sane enough to be able to realize that his mental illness was primarily benefiting himself and hurting other people. I don't see any leadership here.

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

The worldwide financial collapse had a lot to do with a large number of idiots deciding to buy homes they knew they couldn't afford, which is pretty much an extension of the widespread practice of running credit cards up to ridiculous levels. Unemployment sure hurts a lot more if you've got $40K in unsecured debt. That's pretty much the definition of "from the bottom up." Personal responsibility is sorely lacking in society these days.

Again, you've failed to prove your point. Exactly how many executives do you think work in America?

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

Along with "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room", and "Pigs at the Trough", you might want to try The Corporation and War is a Racket. There's tons of historical and statistical evidence to prove that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" as it applies to business and the board room. It amazes me that there are so many apologists out there.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha! Banks ask for a ton of information for a mortgage. The banks absolutely knew the idiots would default on the loan, but they gave the idiots a loan anyway! The executives were just thinking about the short term. So, we've got bottom up idiots and top down idiots. And of course it's the middle class that pays for both the regular welfare and the corporate welfare.

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

I think you're confused. Capitalism isn't about "playing nice" with anybody. If that hurts your feelings, try to keep the fact that human beings are a part of the competitive biological landscape. We simply compete in more complex ways and on a much larger scale when compared to other species.

Once again, there are certainly many notable cases of corruption at high levels of business and government (in recent times and throughout history). That said, it is not the norm for the vast majority of companies operating in the market. To believe otherwise is only an indication that you've bought into the far-left hype.

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

You said:

I think you're confused.

and

Capitalism isn't about "playing nice" with anybody.

and

If that hurts your feelings

and

To believe otherwise is only an indication that you've bought into the far-left hype.

I need not say more. Your logic has vindicated my arguments and has nullified your +5 Insightful moderation.

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

He spent NINE freakin YEARS in a prison! Ask yourself this one question: How many years of your life equal $9 million?

I would spend 10 years in prison for "mererly" $1 million dollars. It would be worth it for me. I would make more money that way than in working like a slave for for less money in non-prison employment. I wish I had the opportunity.

Re:the system works!

[wwfarch]

I've read quite a few of your posts and I don't think being "overly honest" is really the problem. As numerous people have mentioned being honest tends to be highly valued by people. I'm not an expert by any means but it sounds to me like you have a different social dysfunction (I'm not sure what though) and equated this with being honest.

Also, from what it sounds like you've had the misfortune of being in some bad jobs where dishonesty is genuinely considered bad. Call centers have a reputation for this in particular.

I've personally been successful (however I do tend to be slightly less honest than you I think). However, at work I can't recall a single time I've lied to anyone. If something comes up where I know telling the truth would hurt someone I just choose to remain quiet. I've brought up many problems that I've noticed and they're generally well received. I suspect that for whatever reason you lack the tact and business speak needed to succeed rather than being overly honest. The real goal is to put things into terms that they care about.

For example, you say "I told the senior employee who trained me on the equipment and who was working with me that we had to follow the company rules and not create safety hazards". Did you mention that this came directly from quality control? The right thing to do here would be to go to your supervisor and mention that QC had an issue and you're wondering what to do about it? Ideally you document this in some way in case they then try to fire you for it (I wouldn't want to work there anyway). This way you're bringing up the issue without being abrasive and telling them that they are breaking the rules and need to change. You don't have that authority but QC might and this way you're just passing along a message.

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

nullified your +5 Insightful moderation

Funny thing about that; it's still there.

Is there a specific reason for your bitterness?

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

I'm not an expert by any means but it sounds to me like you have a different social dysfunction (I'm not sure what though) and equated this with being honest.

To bring some reality here; I am presenting arguments, which by there very nature should be narrowly defined to the subject matter. Reality is far more complex than I can illustrate in a few sentences. There are people who actually seem to like me as well; unfortunately they don't tend to be Hiring Managers or Supervisors -:) If I could self-analyze, I would say that any possible social dysfunction that I do have is that I generally don't like to socialize or talk to people. Most people either bore me or irritate me, and I can't idle-talk with people without feeling like a Loser. I hate gossip and idle chatter, and that is the main type of talk that people engage in. I would tell jokes if people weren't inclined to be so easily offended or intellectually incapable of understanding irony. I suppose I would have enjoyed talking (arguing) with Socrates, but he was killed because his ideas were not very idle.

As numerous people have mentioned being honest tends to be highly valued by people.

There are some psychological facts that I read from various sources that I have etched in my mind. One is that over 60% of people lie in the first 10 minutes of a conversation, and the other is that most people tend to believe what other people say. That means that people have a tendency to lie, and they also have a tendency to believe the lies that are told to them. Also, people who lie the most are taught to lie by their parents and guardians. For example, if an infant tells grandpa he is fat, the parents may encourage that infant to lie and say something pleasant instead of being honest and tactful, or just letting it slide. This is an ongoing process of socialization that people value so much. Ever since I was a very young child I viewed things in terms of logic, and to me socializing children to tell the truth always seemed more logical than to socialize people to lie. I am obviously in the minority opinion. Though it's ironic, people think that lying will not offend people, but I've personally always been offended by "white" lies that people say to try to "protect" me. The excuses people make for their behavior is astounding. If you really questioned people deeply and are perceptive enough to realize and remember the inconsistencies then you may surprise yourself at how truthy you thought your friends, employers, employees etc really are.

So basically, lying is a social phenomena, and if most people are taught to lie then somebody like myself will inevitably be deviant in such social situations. The statistics only helped to validate my observations about people. It is certainly not surprising that people like yourself may find more honest people than not; because that's what the statistics indicate for everybody despite the untruthiness of average people.

It gets ironic too. People will argue that being truthful is dysfunctional and then when the opportunity to demonize lying becomes pertinent, they will claim lying is bad. People like this successful businessman will, almost always and on queue, validate their success through hard work and intelligence, and if or when they get found out, they will blame their failures on "external" factors like "mental illness".

I've personally been successful (however I do tend to be slightly less honest than you I think).

You're not telling me anything new here -:) Thanks at least for being honest about being dishonest.

In terms of bringing things up at work; well, that's a whole other story. I don't even tend to bother anymore. The people with good friends will get promoted, the people with good ideas will get ignored. That's one of the reasons why there are so many business failures. I won't even bother trying to socialize my way into anything because I know it's not me. If people can't value hard

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

TROLL-MODERATOR MY POSTS TILL YOU LOOSE ALL YOUR MODERATION POINTS. Moderator abuse is fine with me. I'd rather have you guys waist your points on me than to up-moderate the pro-corporate corruption Trolls.

Re:the system works!

[Darinbob]

He was also stealing from thieves in some sense. Ie, his company was doing something highly illegal, and he was helping the FBI investigate that. Along the way he decided to steal some for himself too. What may make him unqualified as a CEO though is that he wasn't very good at stealing.

Re:the system works!

[dkleinsc]

The worldwide financial collapse had a lot to do with a large number of idiots deciding to buy homes they knew they couldn't afford

Most of the people buying the homes they couldn't afford didn't know they couldn't afford them. In fact, their mortgage broker almost definitely told them they could afford those homes, because the mortgage broker would collect a commission if the buyer could afford the home, and wouldn't if the buyer couldn't. A responsible banker, by contrast, would never have given these folks loans and would have made sure to explain that the home they wanted could not be reasonably purchased with the income and savings available.

This would seem like the mortgage brokers had a stupid strategy for figuring out who to loan money to (since there was a good chance they were going to default), and it would be, except that the mortgage brokerage could then take the bad loan, build an MBS that appeared to be a good loan, and sell it to somebody else who didn't really know what it was (taking advantage of investor ignorance).

This wasn't a case of irresponsible home buyers (who were acting on information given to them by people they thought were experts), but a whole industry swarming with well paid con-men.

Re:the system works!

[Darinbob]

If these are "idiots" then it's completely plausible that they did not know they couldn't afford the homes. Getting a mortgage is a complex thing, and many people just want to know "how much to I pay every month?" If they get a monthly figure that seems affordable, then they think the entire thing is affordable, blissfully unaware of time bombs. Doesn't help if the mortgage seller is acting like a used car salesperson and hand-waving away any "but what if..." questions.

Actually I think most of these people could have afforded the homes, and could have stayed in the homes, if only the financial world's fantasy that the housing market can only go up had been true.

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

if only the financial world's fantasy that the housing market can only go up had been true

This much is true, but the underlying factors have a lot more to do with people being idiots in a "gotta have it all" sense, as opposed to possessing the basic intelligence required to understand the risk. In other words, these people might have been idiots, but they weren't stupid. Folks used to be raised with a completely different attitude toward money. I'm only 28, but my parents and grandparents taught me differently.

Anyone who believes any market can "only go up" has it coming, so to speak. At the end of the day, they signed the papers and agreed to the terms. I don't have a lot of sympathy for that plight.

Re:the system works!

[palegray.net]

Where, exactly, is the personal responsibility in your version of the events that led up to the housing collapse? Reference my earlier post refuting your view.

Ignorance is absolutely no excuse. People simply didn't read the papers they were signing, and if they did and didn't understand the terms, weren't responsible enough to get independent advice on the matter. There was a time when no sane person would buy a home or make any other large investment without consulting numerous people for assurances; this practice went by the wayside along with many other factors that make up responsible personal financial management.

It's so easy to blame the big, bad bankers... the truth is that people simply didn't have enough personal responsibility to get a grip on what they were agreeing to. The buck stops there.

Re:the system works!

[dkleinsc]

Ignorance is absolutely no excuse.

Why not?

Assume you were born poor. With a single parent who was so busy working she rarely had time to teach you anything. Your education consisted of Sesame Street and similar television before you were 5, and inner-city public school after that. You probably get fair-to-middling grades in school, somewhere in the B-C range, and graduate from a voc tech high school specializing in cooking (putting you ahead of a significant percentage of your peers).

Where in that education did you learn anything about interest, principle, and how to manage a loan? Where in that education did you study exponential growth? Chances are the answer is nowhere. Not because you did anything wrong, really (you did the best you could in school), but because of the circumstances you were born into.

So you get a job working as a cook, and through a lot of hard work as a cook manage to save up some money. You start thinking "If I work hard and play by the rules I can have the American dream" which for you is a car and a house of your own. You go buy the car with the extra cash you saved, and after 5 years of hard work pay off the car. So now you even think you've got this whole loan thing (which remember, you were never taught anything about) figured out: the key thing is to find out what your monthly payment is and how long you will need to pay it.

And this is where you get caught, because you're now thinking of buying a home. So you go out shopping for homes, find one you like, and then go talk to a bank about getting a loan. The bank says they won't give you a loan. Your real estate agent is still hopeful about a deal, though. Then you see an ad on TV about a company that can get you a loan even if the bank says no, so you give them a call. You go into an office where a nice man in a suit explains everything to you, gives you a loan summary with a nice low monthly payment that's even lower than you paid for your car loan, and some papers to sign which the nice man in a suit explains is standard legal boilerplate. You sign the papers and are overjoyed at the prospect of actually achieving the life for yourself and your kids that you wanted.

Should they be more diligent? Sure. Should caveat emptor be the rule of the day? Yes. But the simple fact is that someone in that position doesn't know any better. Not only do they not know, but they don't even know that they don't know.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

What is there to not understand? I explained precisely how your attitude is self-destructive. I think you need to see a psychologist or other therapist. At least you can acknowledge you are not thinking well or clearly. You seem quite mentally ill, although I'm not a mental health expert.

The "fuck you" was for implying that I (or others) could not be successful without lying, cheating or stealing. Were you not social dysfunctional you would realize that.

Hopefully you can find the help you need.

Re:the system works!

[unlametheweak]

The fact that my posts get modded down as Trolls and posts like yours don't get modded down or even get modded upwards says a lot about the way large portions of the population are. The fact that you defend your behavior and won't admit that you are doing anything wrong is pathetic. Flames never had an effect on me, nor did bullies.

Re:the system works!

[Kneo24]

I don't see anything trollish about their comments. I don't see anything trollish about yours either. The shysters of the world tend to be well socialized, it's how they work. No one is saying you have to be conman to fit in, but knowing how to socialize helps you to fit in. I know upstanding people who are well socialized, who can talk the talk, yet aren't full of shit and are generally nice people.

Re:the system works!

[kkruecke]

He actually got 2 more PhDs while in prison. (I forget what they were for though)

Good point. I missed that. He did earn a PhD in Psychology and another in Economics while in prison, in addition to some other degrees.

The grand total is three Phds, one J.D, and one MBA: a Phd in Nutritional BioChemistry, a Phd in Psychology, a Phd in Economics, a Juris Doctor (J.D.) degree, and MBA.

Re:the system works!

[Anonymous Coward]

What site was that

Your point?

[bazald]

He helped the FBI to expose the price-fixing scheme of his company and served his time. Assuming someone is inspecting his work, what more do you want from the guy?

Re:Your point?

[unlametheweak]

He helped the FBI to expose the price-fixing scheme of his company and served his time. Assuming someone is inspecting his work, what more do you want from the guy?

I'd like to know why he was in prison if he was so benevolent to the FBI and so harmful to the evil-doers in his company. Most criminals only tend to become remorseful after they've been caught. I'd also like to know how he could afford to get a Phd. I'd also like to know how he could have gotten job references from the company that he squealed about. I've got dozens of other unanswered questions.

Re:Your point?

[Anonymous Coward]

After seeing the movie, I'm not entirely certain he didn't concoct and being the price-fixing scheme as a cover for his attempted embezzlement...

Re:Your point?

[dave_d]

Well some of your questions could easily be answered - have you read the book/seen the movie/listened to the This American Life show? The TAL goes in pretty good detail about how he ended up in prison - haven't read the book/seen the movie, but based on what I've heard of both, the events are detailed there too..

Re:Your point?

[negRo_slim]

I'd like to know why he was in prison if he was so benevolent to the FBI and so harmful to the evil-doers in his company.

He didn't come clean right away with the feds, and when he did he put their entire multi year investigation at stake since he would of been the lone witness as to the date/time and people in the recordings. He also starting going a little crazy when his lawyer suggested he take a 2 year plea bargain. Started thinking everyone was out to get him, and he leveled some pretty wild accusations against one of the feds he workedc closely with during the investigation.

In the end they got one of the Japanese guys to be their witness for the tapes IIRC.

Re:Your point?

[RightSaidFred99]

Yeah... about that. They had film and it was well documented what went down.

Re:Your point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you have no interest in confirming your opinions with facts.

Re:Your point?

[syousef]

He helped the FBI to expose the price-fixing scheme of his company and served his time. Assuming someone is inspecting his work, what more do you want from the guy?

Maybe repay the people he ripped off? I know. Completely unreasonable isn't it.

Re:Your point?

[Tumbleweed]

He helped the FBI to expose the price-fixing scheme of his company and served his time. Assuming someone is inspecting his work, what more do you want from the guy?

A better movie about his story?

Just joking - I haven't seen it, and Soderbergh is a cinematic god.

Re:Your point?

[interkin3tic]

Maybe repay the people he ripped off? I know. Completely unreasonable isn't it.

I say start pestering him for that 9 million right after ADM pays the taxpayers back their billions and billions of dollars.

...and no, the fact that what Whitacre did was against the laws but what ADM is doing isn't really doesn't matter much to me.

Re:Your point?

[skine]

I can't be bothered to even RTFA. How do you expect me to watch movies or watch television?

Re:Your point?

[Anonymous Coward]

I only read the captchas.

Re:Your point?

[Xest]

I'll admit I don't know the details of this case or US laws particularly well, but in general investigation into people like him, his arrest, and the court case, as well as the prison sentence cost money. A lot of money. Money that wont be repaid by anyone other than the tax payer. So it's not unreasonable for the tax paying public to somewhat appalled if someone is making an absolute fortune based on his contacts in a similar important position of trust in which he will be making a fortune.

Fair enough, you have an issue whereby you can't take money off someone whose poor once they've done their time for burglary or whatever, because it'll cost them more when they undoubtedly reoffend because they have little choice but to commit crime to pay off the charges. In the case of someone like this though who is clearly making a lot of money, it seems perfectly fair to bill him for some of the costs. 90% tax on income above say, $30k seems fair until the debt is repaid.

The problem is if you do nothing you give people the impression that this sort of crime is worth trying, because at the end of the day even if you get caught you'll still come out extremely well off. In the meantime the tax payer foots the bill for investigation, incarceration and so on. Ultimately the people committing the crime win, whilst the tax payers- mostly comprised of honest joes lose.

Re:Your point?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have not read the book, etc. It was a rhetorical question...Some things are too predictable.

You're telling me!

Re:Your point?

[Anonymous Coward]

So everyone should be equal before the law except those who aren't?

Re:Your point?

[nomadic]

Maybe repay the people he ripped off? I know. Completely unreasonable isn't it.

Yes, it is. After the stuff ADM pulled, and the small fine they got hit with, why are you so eager to see them get money?

Re:Your point?

[nomadic]

I'd like to know why he was in prison if he was so benevolent to the FBI and so harmful to the evil-doers in his company.

Because in addition to helping the FBI, he was also committing crimes.

I'd also like to know how he could afford to get a Phd.

That question doesn't make any sense. I would assume he did it the same way most PhD students pay for it, through a combination of grants, work, maybe savings...I don't know. Why are you even asking this? Are you under the impression he got it while in prison? Or after prison? If so, why would you jump to such an illogical conclusion?

Re:Your point?

[Anonymous Coward]

...and no, the fact that what Whitacre did was against the laws but what ADM is doing isn't really doesn't matter much to me.

Price-fixing between supposed competitors within an industry is illegal in the USA and was so long before the 1990's, in fact about 100 years by that point in time. What ADM did was wrong, both ethically and legally, and they knew it too.

Although it is a shame that the guy who tipped-off the Feds and worked most closely with them turned-out to be an unstable criminal. It allowed ADM's lawyers to use a sideshow to distract the public and the legal system away from the larger plot that was far more damaging to the general public. None of that excuses anything Mark Whitacre did, but he was only a small part of willful and methodical conspiracy to defraud the public.

Re:Your point?

[Darinbob]

I haven't seen it, but I listed to the public radio story that interviewed him and some FBI agents (This American Life). It was one of those "you just can't make this stuff up" kind of story.

Re:Your point?

[interkin3tic]

Oh, I forgot about the price fixing altogether! The link to wiki was talking about ethanol subsidies, about how we've wasted billions on ADM and still for every dollar they make on ethanol, the taxpayer has given $10. That's the bigger ripoff that I was talking about.

Also their corn syrup has really damaged our health, but they're far from the only ones complicit in that.

Re:Your point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, he initially reported a false story to the FBI about an anonymous caller threatening to destroy the Company if it failed to pay a $10,000,000 Dollar Ransom (coincidentally?) covering the $9,000,000 Dollar embezzlement. When it was becoming a problem turning out to be unworkable, he (conveniently?) diverted attention to the industry's price fixing (to cover his ass?). He was originally looking at 3 or 4 years. However, he felt his success in exposing the scheme far outweighed his embezzlement and his outraged demands of not receiving any sentence at all irked everyone involved for insulting their intelligence.

To Be Human

[Anonymous Coward]

I've lived around bipolar people my entire life. I myself suffer from moderate OCD / ADHD, so when I run into a relative or friend who is in the manic phase, it's sort of like oil and water. I'm over-cautious, and they're just three sheets to the wind, mentally speaking. I remember finally learning about bipolar when I was 21, and wondering why nobody told me to brace myself when I was around these people. But the average person, I think, didn't know much about it until very recently.

I remember the one who broke into his high school to change his grades (almost as some sort of graduation present for a new detective on the force), the 60-year-old neocon woman who bought a very expensive car on a secretary's salary, then ditched it in a parking lot and rode cross-country with a friend to start a rock band, and the one who stopped taking his meds and switched to a "natural" cure that had him taking 40 vitamin pills every day, just to get "trace minerals" that ended up doing nothing for him but keeping him in bed all day, depressed. Or the one who submitted some INCREDIBLY Jackass-like videos to America's Funniest Videos back before Jackass was on TV. Those poor screeners must have been mortified, lol.

On the other hand, I've had some amazing moments with bipolar people. Just being there for them when they are bummed out, when they're sleeping on the couch all day with their boss calling every half hour, or their mom calling, freaking out that they're going to commit suicide like their dad did.

I am in awe of people who work in the mental health industry. I'm an illustrator/designer by trade, and among those who have used the services of mental health professionals are artists like Norman Rockwell, Georges Remi, Otto Preminger, etc. These are people who needed clarity and direction, among other things, just to get out of bed in the morning or start the next project.

Re:To Be Human

[Douglas Simmons]

Thank you for that.

Re:To Be Human

[Geoff-with-a-G]

Great comment, and you mention "I am in awe of people who work in the mental health industry". From seeing the movie and reading the article, I'm also in awe of his wife. From the article:

"I learned my family was the most important thing in my life. My wife moved to every state I was located and came every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday for eight and a half years. Basically, Monday through Thursday I'd be waiting for Friday night, and she'd come all day Saturday and all day Sunday. And I don't mean for an hour or two. I mean from 8 a.m. to 3 p.m. That's definitely not the norm. I mean, the divorce rate in prison is 99%, and the divorce rate in society is over 50%. I'm very lucky, and she's really what kept me alive. My wife, she's definitely a trooper."
...
"Well, it was really my wife. She made the decision that if I didn't tell the FBI about the price-fixing, she was going to. So in reality she did the right thing and not me. I see her more the whistleblower than myself. She had the moral compass."

That's pretty awesome, when you think about it. He's lucky to have had her; support like that is really life-changing.

Crime Pays

[unlametheweak]

Thanks to a Ph.D. he earned from Cornell in nutritional biochemistry, and an understanding CEO who was involved in prison ministry, Whitacre is now COO of Cypress Systems, where he's been working since spending nine years in prison for embezzlement.

Another example of how references and credit checks are worthless for proving reliability. Executive class criminals are in high demand by corporations because of their untrustworthiness. The game of life is won by winners like Richard Hatch. Winners are very rarely nice people, although they have so much money that they smile a lot, so it at least appears as if they are friendly. Winners are very positive in their demeanor.

Spoilers

[Arakageeta]

Gee, thanks for the spoilers!

Re:Spoilers

[Kozz]

Gee, thanks for the spoilers!

That reminds me, I'd like to tell you about some other great movies I've seen, including The Passion of the Christ, Titanic, The Usual Suspects and The Sixth Sense.

Re:Spoilers

[flydpnkrtn]

That reminds me, I'd like to tell you about some other great movies I've seen, including The Passion of the Christ, Titanic, The Usual Suspects and The Sixth Sense.

Jesus dies, check. The ship sinks, check. Common history stuff most people know.

The Usual Suspects though? Sixth Sense? Did you really already know the endings to those?

Just sayin'.

Re:Spoilers

[pregister]

I see Verbal Kint (aka Keyser Soze) nailed to a cross which is sinking to the bottom of the ocean and about to become a dead person?

Re:Spoilers

[Hurricane78]

Guys guys (reffering to sibling comments)! You misunderstood this. He knows very well that two of those are the one side of the spoiler-able extreme, and the other two are the other extreme. That was kinda his point.

So WHOOOSHHH to all of you! :D

___
P.S.: No, I don't drive a Prius. Why?

Re:Spoilers

[caramelcarrot]

I've never heard this guy's story before (being from the UK) and was actually looking forward to seeing this film. Now slashdot has managed to give the entire thing away. Thanks.

Re:Spoilers

[beegeegee]

I've never heard this guy's story before (being from the UK) and was actually looking forward to seeing this film. ....

Ugh, not me. I find movies like this and "Catch Me If You Can" like listening to fingernails on a blackboard. The "Lucy Show" was another. Lucy began every show with a lie and then spent the next twenty minutes trying to cover it up, the last two minutes getting caught.

Re:Spoilers

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt it.

Re:Spoilers

[Anonymous Coward]

I highly doubt that.

Listen to This American Life podcast on Whitacre

[Kozz]

It's really a fascinating story. A full nine years before the film was created, Ira Glass and crew at This American Life did a podcast on the event. Have a listen. http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=168

it is fascinating

[Edmund Blackadder]

The guy is and has always been a compulsive liar and he is still getting an executive job on his way out of prison.

Makes you think, doesn't it.

Re:it is fascinating

[interkin3tic]

The guy is and has always been a compulsive liar and he is still getting an executive job on his way out of prison.

Makes you think, doesn't it.

For me, the much more thought provoking bit is that he first managed to get his PhD in biochemistry. In contrast to executives, I don't normally think of chemists as being greedy unethical liars

Re:it is fascinating

[L4t3r4lu5]

Agree completely!

However, my way of wording it is "The guy was suffering from bipolar disorder, causing him to latch onto any and all means of proving self worth at the expense of everything else. He was found out, put in prison, rehabilitated, and is now more in control of his neurological condition. He has found gainful employment by an employer who understands the issues fuelling his past behaviour, and has decided that the man's skillset is worth more than the risk (or the safeguards against) a repeat of prior events."

But I much prefer your way of putting it. It reminds me of political spin and headline-grabbing media coverage from the Daily Mail. I'm used to that kind of spoon-feed-me-my-morality reporting, after all.

Re:it is fascinating

[nomadic]

For me, the much more thought provoking bit is that he first managed to get his PhD in biochemistry. In contrast to executives, I don't normally think of chemists as being greedy unethical liars

There are many, many executives with PhDs, especially in the agricultural and pharmaceutical industries. Being a scientist doesn't put you on some higher moral ground.

Re:it is fascinating

[interkin3tic]

Obviously not, I just said I don't normally THINK of them as being greedy unethical liars. Not anything about scientists and moral ground. Now that you mention it though, I would still trust my tax money more with a researcher at a university than an executive of a major international company.

Re:it is fascinating

[jeffasselin]

His main skillset obviously being lying through his teeth about a product that doesn't actually work.

Truly a fantastic example of rehabilitation in the corporate world of today!

Re:it is fascinating

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously not, I just said I don't normally THINK of them as being greedy unethical liars. Not anything about scientists and moral ground. Now that you mention it though, I would still trust my tax money more with a researcher at a university than an executive of a major international company.

But you see in this situation both of them could have PHDs in science and it wouldn't alter the consideration. The real difference is what each is choosing to do with their education. An executive in a major international company is likely have a substantial income and would likely be maximize his personal profit. On the other hand, the university researcher has forgone the possibility of more income he'd make in the private sector (even as a just researcher, rather than an executive) to stay in academia. There can be different reasons for this, but greed generally isn't applicable. Therefore while there is no guarantee that the researcher would manage the tax money better than the executive, it is more likely the research will spend it on something that only benefits his/herself.

Now I'm not saying that all executives are greedy assholes, or that researchers can't be greedy assholes as well. However, it is logical that between the two professions greedy assholes are more likely to become executives because executives generally amass more wealth and power than researchers.

Re:it is fascinating

[interkin3tic]

I think I've been saying what you're saying since the beginning, aside from...

Therefore while there is no guarantee that the researcher would manage the tax money better than the executive, it is more likely the research will spend it on something that only benefits his/herself.

It sounded like you meant to put executive there, or else you made quite the leap in logic.

Re:Listen to This American Life podcast on Whitacr

[TheModelEskimo]

Amazing that there were podcasts NINE years ago.

Re:Listen to This American Life podcast on Whitacr

[MBCook]

There weren't, at least not This American Life. They've had their podcast for a while now, although it was available from Audible before that.

They just re-aired the episode last week (due the to movie, as Kozz said), so it's available for free right now. It was a really great story.

on this american life

[Anonymous Coward]

Aired September 15, 2000 on This American Life.

ADM still incredibly powerful

[currivan]

When I read the book a few years ago, the most striking thing was that the names Archer Daniels Midland and Dwayne Andreas didn't appear on the cover or liner notes, and I actually had to look pretty deep in the book to figure out what company he worked for.

Now that ADM pleaded guilty and paid a $100 million fine, their lawyers have less to work with, but at the time the publisher was apparently pretty scared of them. The book is also exceedingly careful about alleging that the Andreases knew how their company did business.

Missing Piece

[Killer Napkin]

A lot of people wonder about the strange events in the life of Mark Whitacre. As I was reading through the Fortune article, I immediately noticed the fingerprints of the life of a Christian. So I looked it up and it seems that Christianity played a huge role in the story of Mark Whitacre. Obviously, you can't put that in modern films, but he covers it in other sources and talks freely about it in numerous interviews. You can Google and find plenty of references. I thought I'd mention it, not just because I'm a Christian, but because it answers a lot of questions: his claim that his wife was his "moral compass", why she didn't leave him, and his contrite apology at the end of the interview. I suspect it also has much to do with the CEO who was involved in "prison ministry" that later hired him up at Cypress.

See? We're not all anti-evolutionist, racist, hate-mongers.* :-)

* Some of us are just ex-conartist/embezzlers :-)

Re:Missing Piece

[bendodge]

You are correct. WORLD Magazine had a good writeup on him. http://www.worldmag.com/articles/15856 (It's likely behind a paywall.)

Re:Missing Piece

[DoofusOfDeath]

A lot of people wonder about the strange events in the life of Mark Whitacre. As I was reading through the Fortune article, I immediately noticed the fingerprints of the life of a Christian.

Okay, so this risks starting a flamewar, but what the heck...

Regarding the characteristics you noticed that made you think, "this guy's a Christian". Do some persons from other religions show such transformations as well?

And if not, then how narrowly must one slice the definition of "Christian" in order to get the cluster of people having what you referred to as "fingerprints"? I.e., Protestants vs. non-Protestants? Are Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses in or out?

I'm asking because I've heard various Christian apologists / evangelists saying that Christianity changes lives. If that's true, I wonder if it's uniquely true among all the religions.

Re:Missing Piece

[dkleinsc]

Obviously, you can't put that in modern films

Sure you can. They might not all be big Hollywood blockbusters, but to say that religion is necessarily disqualified from film is incorrect. For instance, Stanley Kubrick, hardly a Christian-oriented filmmaker, made Christianity a key part of the film A Clockwork Orange. And films about biblical events are regularly quite popular and successful, whether we're talking about The Passion of the Christ or Prince of Egypt.

I'm not exactly sure though that Mark Whitacre's Christianity would be one I'd take for inspiration. It might be one thing if he'd taken all of his ill-gotten gains and given them away to charity, but he didn't. And I distinctly remember something about camels not being able to get through eyes of needles.

Re:Missing Piece

[elrous0]

You should be grateful they didn't include it. If this is the kind of self-serving scumbag your religion produces, I wouldn't go around advertising it.

Re:Missing Piece

[Anonymous Coward]

Who *doesn't* find Jesus in prison? Sheesh.

Re:Missing Piece

[gad_zuki!]

>See? We're not all anti-evolutionist

Actually, if you watch the movie you'll find him make random comments about animals that shows an incredible lack of a basic understanding of natural selection. Im not sure where they came from (made up by the filmmaker, his own writings, his conversations, etc) but its interesting to see that Mr. Moral Middle American Christian is a really just a mentally-ill thief with no understanding of evolution.

Personally, I dont think he's really all that crazy, perhaps mild bipolarity (I wonder if a 21st doctor would have given him a aspergers dx). He's just a price-fixer bribe-taking thief and realized the writing on the wall, so he went to the FBI before any of his co-workers did to work out some deal, but he managed to screw that us as well.

That said, he paid his dues and deserves to be a productive citizen again.

Re:Missing Piece

[crazyjimmy]

It's terminology, and behavior which make up the "fingerprint." It's not so much that only Christianity can cause a significant change, but that when it is Christianity there are identifiable signs.

I don't know if all religions do this. I do know that Mormons likewise have their own unique phrases and behaviors which come about after they change, which are distinctly different than Chrisitans. Alcoholics Anonymous, though not a religious institution per se, also has a signature.

(Forgive any poor spelling/grammar/word-choice, I'm terribly sick right now)

--Jimmy

Re:Missing Piece

[PPalmgren]

Kind of off-topic, but one late night I was up watching boring TV and saw some awful hour-long show soleley trying to argue that the founding fathers of the US were Christian. I couldn't turn it off because it seemed so bizzare to me that someone would talk for an hour over something so pointless. I get the same vibe from your post. Why does it matter if someone is a Christian or not? I don't understand the logic of even bringing something up like this, since I see zero causation between his religion and his actions. Please enlighten me.

Re:Missing Piece

[Anonymous Coward]

He's talking about recognition of a common culture in key words and phrases, as well as decisions and their purported motivations. It's like seeing someone on the street with a Thinkgeek shirt and a EEE. "Ah," you think, "a fellow geek. He will probably understand lolspeak, whether or not he murdered his wife in a van." He wasn't asserting No True Scotsman, I don't think.

Re:Missing Piece

[Anonymous Coward]

To some extent, religion, by definition, should change someone's life. Maybe it is cultivating one's crops differently, or blowing up a school, or saying please and thank you more.

There is a lot stuff I hate about Christian culture, but when it comes to this kind of stuff, I've seen a lot of people's lives turned around for the better in the name of Jesus. Reading the article, I think it makes sense for someone to point at the 'fingerprints' of the story - or the stuff that seems unusual, and ask themselves why - what is the reason? Christianity, given the culture in American, seems like a good guess. And behold, it was.

Re:Missing Piece

[Anonymous Coward]

You should be grateful they didn't include it. If this is the kind of self-serving scumbag your religion produces, I wouldn't go around advertising it.

Yeah there's no way a Christian up-bring could produce someone who is genuinely compassionate and concerned about moral justice.

Pro-tip: There is sometimes a big difference between what people claim to believe and what they actually do and this can be true for any belief system, including non-religious moral and ethical codes.

Re:Missing Piece

[jeffasselin]

It matters to me. Someone who is clearly Christian automatically loses much credibility with me. If he's willing to believe there's some invisible guy listening when he mumbles to himself, what other absurdities is he going to be ready to believe?

Re:Missing Piece

[elrous0]

Nice dodge. Tell everyone your religion makes people better, then when one of your "better" people turns out to be a scumbag you just say "Oh, you see, he wasn't a REAL Christian." That way you never have to accept the fact that your religion isn't any better at producing good people than atheism or any other religion.

Re:Missing Piece

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice dodge. Tell everyone your religion makes people better, then when one of your "better" people turns out to be a scumbag you just say "Oh, you see, he wasn't a REAL Christian." That way you never have to accept the fact that your religion isn't any better at producing good people than atheism or any other religion.

I never stated that Christianity is any better at producing good people than another belief system. I simply refuted your implication that Mark Whitacre's actions somehow represents all or the common Christian person.

While your allusion the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy is noted, I don't do what you describe. You see, my denomination of Christianity, Catholicism, believes in concepts like atonement and moral redemption, so theorectically even a scumbag could reform themselves. Although you'll probably respond with some anti-Catholic rant now, instead of one presuming I'm a evangelical Protestant.;)

In any case, I didn't make any judgment on if Mark Whitacre was really a Christian I just refuted that Mark Whitacre does not represent all Christians. Just like I don't think your rude and insulting manner represents the larger group of whatever larger belief system you espouse, or all the other people who don't have particularly strong beliefs if you lack one. That is the point you missed in my original response.

     

Re:Missing Piece

[Ol Olsoc]

The folks who produced that show would really like the US structured around their beliefs. To them it matters greatly, as they consider that validation for their political activism.

-

Warning: I brake for chachalacas!

bipolar-fueled compulsive lying ?

[JeanBaptiste]

Huh, I'm quite bipolar and hate liars. Would kill them if I could.

Re:bipolar-fueled compulsive lying ?

[Anonymous Coward]

then laugh and cry about it?

Which of these don't belong...

[Sir_Lewk]

Huh? Two of those four are hardly "spoiler-able" movies, while the other two are quite spoile-able.

Re:Which of these don't belong...

[Anonymous Coward]

They didn't used to be.

Re:Which of these don't belong...

[Sir_Lewk]

Pretty damned sure everyone knows the Titanic sank. Public schooling hasn't gotten that bad yet.

Re:OT: Can anybody browse at -1?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been that way for months. Probably because we're both gay as hell.

time to work

[__aazsst3756]

He did his time, he should be allowed to go back to work.

dear shit for brains

[Anonymous Coward]

i know plenty of people who have the ability to be an executive, but they are looked over since the system rewards greed and immorality more than competence and skill. its not about jealousy its about fairness you twisted fuck

Re:dear shit for brains

[unlametheweak]

i know plenty of people who have the ability to be an executive, but they are looked over since the system rewards greed and immorality more than competence and skill. its not about jealousy its about fairness you twisted fuck

According to the people who replied to me, it's about having the intelligence and social skills to succeed in life. As more than one person told me; people who don't lie are socially dysfunctional.

Great casting there, Soderbergh

[elrous0]

The guy looks so much like Matt Damon it's creepy.

Re:Listen to This American Life podcast on Whitacr

[MonsterTrimble]

I second listening to the podcast. It's a wonderful piece of storytelling and the stainless steel set this guy had blew my mind. Granted he was bipolar, but what he did was exceptional.

I want to see the movie because of the podcast. It's that good.

Re:Listen to This American Life podcast on Whitacr

[Joe Snipe]

Not for nothing, but movies take a long time to make. I'm sure the buzz for this movie was around in 2000, hell I'm sure the script was around then. Iyour goal was to suggest that Mr glass had some sort of edge on anyone you are surely mistaken, after all these things don't happen in a vacuum.

Based on a true story == fair game to spoil

[tepples]

Now slashdot has managed to give the entire thing away.

If a story is factual, or if its author died before January 1939, then Wikipedia probably already spoiled it.

Train of thought

[LtGordon]

/* I should really start buying all my ties overseas. I could wear them and then throw them in a duty-free bag. Nobody ever gets stopped at customs over ties. */

So, uh, are we done here? It's been great talking to you.

Born Again XYZ

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like you're talking about Born Again personality types.

As an atheist and humanist with his eyes open, I suggest that the born-again phenomena is a more common product of the human mind, and you can see it exhibited in many cultures and religions. I've met born-again Christians, Buddhists, Hindis, and nihilists in my own travels. It's got a lot of similarities to brain-washing, but is induced by a catastrophe of life experiences rather than a disciplined abuser. I think at the point of the mental conversion, the born again person is susceptible to local influences which shape their experience of it.

However, the transformative processes experienced on rebound from mental illness are in another category. Only in retrospect can lay people identify whether a bipolar person has really turned a corner or just started another manic cycle with a slower, steadier rise. You might say that, at best, they can only be in remission. Schizophrenics can sometimes "choose to be sane" as they get older, with or without some newer medications. But they can also collapse into psychosis after decades of functional living.