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OnLive CEO Provides Details On Cloud Gaming
eldavojohn writes "OnLive is a new cloud gaming service that is in beta testing. While it might sound like nothing more than corporate buzzwords creeping over into the gaming world, a new video reveals how the CEO claims his service will work. Perlman explains OnLive's solution to the video game compression problem and talks about the '80 ms latency budget.' It's pretty interesting to listen to him figure out this budget and where the 'costs' come from. (Video only.) Now, this all hinges on the 'microconsole,' which — as he reveals at the beginning of the video — is so cheap they plan to give it away. We may also see it incorporated with TVs and other electronic devices. He goes on to talk about perceptual science and dealing with packet irregularities on the internet."
[citation needed]
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
probably because gaming is saturated in Korea. There are PC-rooms everywhere. I can walk to about a dozen in less than 10 minutes. They're very cheap, and people in Korea are social gamers. They don't stay home and game. They go out and do it with their friends. Also Korean PC games are free. Only microtransactions for vanity things, and the system requirements are often quite low on most of them which means you don't need an expensive PC even if you wanted to game at home. A lot of home users use wireless laptops as well since they don't game at home. This pushes up the latency and packet issues.
Not exactly an inviting market for this service.
Does it run on Linux? I mean I know this question is often used in jest, but I'm serious.
Wednesday, September 23, 2009
How to Deliver Online Gaming, Minus the Lag
OnLive CEO Steve Perlman explains how his cloud videogame service deals with real network conditions.
By Erica Naone
This March, a company called OnLive promised a gaming technology that seemed almost too good to be true. The company said it could deliver graphics-heavy video games over the Internet to any computer or to a miniconsole hooked to a television. This includes games such as the first-person shooter Crysis, which is normally beyond the capabilities of anything short of a multi-thousand-dollar gaming machine.
Today at Technology Review's EmTech@MIT conference, OnLive founder and CEO Steve Perlman presented a live demo of the system in action.
Video
OnLive has met with skepticism from hardcore gamers. The big question is whether the system can transmit high-end games over the Internet without serious lag, and many have said it can't be done. OnLive is currently in an open beta, which involves testing its technology on a variety of real networks and computers.
Though OnLive has developed its own compression technology, Perlman says that this is "just one piece of a complex problem."
The main issue, he suggests, is dealing with real-world network conditions. The company has spent the last seven years in stealth mode learning to do just this. Years ago, Perlman says, OnLive's technology worked perfectly under ideal network conditions. Since then, a lot of work has gone into addressing less-than-perfect conditions.
When streaming something like a video, a computer builds up a buffer to protect against network problems. The buffer buys some time to check whether the stream is flowing smoothly and to ask the server to resend any information that gets lost or corrupted along the way. In the case of a video game, which is inherently unpredictable, Perlman says that such a technique is out of the question.
Instead, OnLive's system uses perceptual science to keep the gaming experience smooth. The company's algorithms adapt what's shown so that it seems to be a complete image while the screen is moving, even if it wouldn't look that way if the picture were still. This allows some leeway for network hiccups. "Each frame may not look good, but we always deliver the data," Perlman says.
The company plans to launch to the public this winter.
"is so cheap they plan to give it away"
Hey Perlman (if that is your real name): the dot-com bubble called. They want their failed business strategy back. Subsidise the hardware, sure, but don't give it away. That's just asking for financial disaster. Your business is risky enough as it is.
"A week in the lab saves an hour in the library"
Where I have I heard this before? Oh yeah, from a company that now makes lapboards and keyboards, Phantom is it?
Well looks like they are getting funding from some serious players:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/techchron/archives/180603.asp
http://blog.onlive.com/2009/09/29/onlive-closes-major-investment/
AT&T Media Holdings, Inc., Lauder Partners, Warner Bros., Autodesk and Maverick Capital.
I live in Japan, and it only cost $60-80 USD a month to have a 100MB up & down fiber optic connection in every room of my house. I know Japan is only the size of California, but come on. Seriously, the US spends millions on beach sand and damn near nothing on real connections.
You can make any demand you want. I won't join you on this issue, however; the video was interesting (the guy is a good speaker) and I'm glad to have seen it. Also, the text loaded perfectly fine for me... is "this type of summary" any summary which your particular machine and connection has a problem with? Are you suggesting that Slashdot send a tech to your house to make sure every submission works on your machine? Are we all to make this demand on your behalf?
Gaming on Weed might sounds like fun with all them clouds but the reality is you'll wake up in your mid 30s, broke, with no life and wish you hadn't. Besides everyone knows your reaction time is better when you're sober.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
WinXP with Firefox 3.0 without NoScript. Yes, I'd expect that Slashdot editors would vet submissions to at least work on this very very common platform.
Wait, no, I don't expect the /. editors to do much of anything, now that you mention it.
Servers that scale: check. Resources brought online as needed: check. Software as a service: Check.
And that's what make MMORPGs SUCK in my book. I can't play on the train (unless I spend a lot on wireless broadband - it ain't cheap in Aus). I have to rely on servers being up. I don't have time for any of that. If I get an hour to play a game, it needs to be available then and there whenever and whereever I get a chance to play.
If I want online chat I'll socialise with real world friends and family. I even have a couple of backups (mobile phone and land line). If you think I'm a luddite keep in mind I was on Skype and MSN with my mother 2 nights ago (after going round and fixing the security on her wireless network). I know there are people who love these games - even to the point of neglecting "real" life, but I just can't get into a system where my pleasure is at some company's control. I don't want to play a game against a freakishly good 12 year old. I might be interested in a game against a real world friend but I don't want something that saps my time and requires friends interested in the same niche as me.
By all means diversify but can we please keep traditional on a cd/dvd games that don't require a cloud, or even a network?
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
You're on Dave's, right? Small world. (I also agree with what you said)
Because it would work in Korea. It would work excellently and nobody would play it (they already have PC Bangs and the like).
For Korean broadband standards, this isn't revolutionary.
They should be testing it on the lowest common denominator first. I doubt this system is going to work in the US, Canada or most Western countries. There simply isn't enough bandwidth for it yet (or most people are going to play with such a low resolution that its not even worth it).
... rhymes with Cloud Wanking.
The allure of ***Cloud*** (insert fireworks) surprises and doesn't surprise me. Seems like any tech concept you can put in simple allegorical terms that can be understood by the technically illiterate investors (and tech journalists at Wired) is a surefire recipe for success. Here... let me try:
"Mountain(TM) Computing! The Problem: computing resources are spread too thin across the enterprise. Solution: With Mountain(TM) computing we marshal them for access at the peak. Intel and Microsoft are excited about Mountain(TM) computing."
Also see: Push, Web 2.0.
Yup.
Even a lot of western games don't get big here, because they cost money. Koreans are all too happy to enjoy their free games.
There will be PC/Mac clients? Browser plugins even? Why didn't you say so, all of a sudden I give a shit.
Word of advice: don't get blinded by the US market. They don't spend nearly as much on games as other parts of the world.. and they don't have the greatest broadband. Other than the fact that you're white, is there a reason why you're not rolling out in Korea first?
The simple answer is publicity. Aion has been out for close to a year with 7 million users outside the western world then while approaching a western release it hits the front page of Slashdot a handful of times. That's all it is.
For those with short attention spans, the product is supposed to provide games by server-side rendering. The essential question is: on aggregate, is it cheaper for them to buy the game-rendering hardware and set up the network infrastructure and add their margin, than for the end user to simply go out and buy a games console outright? If 20% of their users want to play Crysis 2, and 80% want to play Peggle, the company needs to buy enough heavy-duty hardware for all of those people to play Crysis 2, and still offer the service at a price which will please people who want Peggle. I'm not sure that the maths will work.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
The issue with the page wasn't noscript but that the page loads and then performs a meta-redirect.
due to annoying sites like news.com.au that auto refresh (to increase ad impressions) a lot of people disable this "feature"
...and their free games kinda suck. They're either WoW clones or CS clones. I wouldn't pay for them anyway.
I was IncognitoHFX on Dave's. I am banned for the rest of my life for god knows what.
Mostly, yes, but as a counterpoint: Navy Field a WWII naval combat game. The technology is stone age - bitmaps, DirectX6, TCP - and it's poorly supported and run, but it just won't lie down and die.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
In the video, when he talks about spectators all watching one person (same stream), he says they would use "multicast within our datacenters". Well, I could see the point of using multicast up to the end-points through the whole path (which, at least in germany, sadly won't work, because providers here don't support it), but using it within the datacenters? How will that help 100.000 people watching the stream, you will still need to unicast it expensively to every single viewer from the border of the datacenter.
Can someone clear this up for me? Would multicasting work on US-Internet?
I feel like this would totally destroy rhythm based games and fighting games where even 30 or 40 ms lag is noticeable to the average player because of the way the timing works. Aiming in shooting games would probably feel too weird to be very enjoyable.
Imagine some sort of cloud gaming future in like 2050 where vast swaths of game genres have been killed off by the lag inherent to the game systems, and people play nothing but slow paced adventure and puzzle games!
The video is 13:37 long. OnLive must be good.
Not all. I don't play the MMOs, my Korean isn't good enough, but I have a very infrequently updated blog where I walk people through how to sign up and play various games that don't require much Korean. There are some there that I enjoy. FPS, and MMOs lend themselves best to the whole vanity stuff. You can't break into the RTS market with a bomb because of Star Craft. I've found 1 or 2 Korean made RTS out there, but they're not currently running, they seem to be down for revamping. There is a decent scorched clone called Taan. Its cutesy, but interesting. Raycity is a decent MMO, interesting concept, also interesting to see a good portion of seoul mapped, with actual building fronts being used (circa 2006)
Not all of the shooters are boom-headshot like counter strike.
Bubble Fighter and Metal rage are two that I played which aren't that style.
1. e4 f5 2. Nc3 g5 3. Qh5++ shit!
1. f4 e6 2. g4 Qh4++ shit!
Sounds exactly like Diablo and it's multiplayer/open option.. it was diluted with hacks and cloning and such..
You want to roll out in a market you're familiar with first (your home market), and during that time, you can have people do research on other markets and line up all your local people and resources.
You don't want to just jump into an unfamiliar market right away, that leads to problems.
latency is not the only problem that this will hit.
I see bandwidth as one big one as many people only have 1.5-3 meg download and can't get faster. also cable may not be much better just think about how much load this will put on a node if a block full of people all hit this at the same time.
also the need for a LOT of hardware at EACH data center (Hardware needs like 1 high end pc per user for a lot of the games + back end systems) and the they will need a lot of data centers all over the place to keep lag down.
hot cable israel has a system like this running on there cable boxes and that type of setup may work here but likely some like that will hit the same thing people see with VOD they will run out of slots for this.
So if we all move to simple client apps and micro consoles, no longer upgrading our machines ourselves, then who will be driving high-end graphics innovations? With no market for PC graphics cards or even for cards in new consoles then who pays ATI / Nvidia to continue developing new technology? I suppose the responsibility then falls to game developers? Will they need to push new graphics innovation nearly as hard as the current market where large companies are constantly competing to upstage each other visually?
How does this work in broadband starved countries (Africa, Oceania) where we get chucked on 64kbps when we go over the limit?
It doesn't. It's not even offered. Next question?
Urban Myth. The car generally sited is the Nova, and it is said that No Va means doesn't go, Spanish language would not consider nova=no va, they are two different things.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
TCP
Hell yea, ICMP is the wave of the future
There will be PC/Mac clients? Browser plugins even? Why didn't you say so, all of a sudden I give a shit.
They did say so, right from their first announcement.
The difference is that with a mobile phone, they have some gaurentee of income because of the contract. The contract says "You agree to pay us this much a month for X months, or a single lump fee of Y should you cancel the contract." Ok well that means that if you keep your contract, they make money since you pay them for service each month. If you cancel, the fee is sufficient to cover the cost of the phone.
However if this is a situation of "Here's free hardware, you pay for games," that only works if I have any intention of paying for the games. What happens if I take their free hardware, and then don't use their service? They are now out the cost of the hardware.
Because our nations are so similar. Ok so you've got a nice cheap connection. May I ask how much you pay for your living arrangements? Also, how big is the place you live? For reference I pay about $850/month for my place. I don't rent, I own. That amount includes principal and interest on the loan, taxes, and association dues. For that I have a 167 square meter, 3 bedroom, condo. The condo grounds have a pool and jacuzzi for the use of the residents, as well as some nice grassy areas to sit and read and so on. How's that stack up to your housing?
I'm not trying to brag, I am trying to say that we don't live in similar nations. Japan has some advantages the US doesn't, but those come at a cost just as the advantages the US has come at a cost. Where I live, things are a bit spread out. There's 50 miles of nothing in all directions one you leave the city, and the city itself is very spread out, rarely are things more than a couple stories high.
Also, how's the upstream on that connection? I don't mean upload speed, I mean speed of the links higher up. You get 100mbps signaling rate, that's great. Can you get that kind of speed to other places in Japan off your ISP? How about to places in the US or Europe?
I ask because in my experience, these massive links that many foreign countries have seem to be more or less big WANs. By that I mean they have high bandwidth links to the users, but no upstream backing it up. So you get blazing transfers to other customers, good transfers to anyone peered with the ISP, average to lousy transfers to anywhere else.
Now maybe that's ok with you, however that's real different from my connection. It is only 10mbit, but I get that to anywhere that can handle it. They have sufficient upstream at all levels to sustain that kind of speed. I am just not so impressed when people talk about their fast connections, but it is only fast to a select group of people.
I mean I could claim I have a gigabit connection at work. The signaling speed to my computer is gig, and I get those kinds of speeds to some things. However the switch it is on only has a gig uplink, and the switch that connects to only has a gig uplink and so on and the campus itself (I work for a university) only has about a gig of total Internet bandwidth. So I can get gig transfers to our file server, and I can get near gig transfers to someone in another building, but I'm only getting 50-100mbit or so (depending on how loaded the network is) out to the Internet at large. As such saying it is a "gigabit" Internet connection would be misleading. Technically maybe, but not in real operation.
Usage of TCP in a game is odd. Most (all?) modern games use UDP which, while not guaranteed to be delivered, doesn't have a round-trip time associated with it.
TCP should only be used in situations where packetloss is unacceptable (downloading game updates, sending credentials to a server, etc.) and not where only simple updates are happening (firing your gun, ordering a unit to move, etc.).
Functional programming... for real men!
The first page loaded. Look at the top, and see there's a "skip this ad" link. That'll take you to the story. It's just that your script blocking makes it look like a failed load.
Remember, very, very few people in the overall scheme of things run NoScript. By doing so, you're making a statement that you're ok with missing out on some things that other people get. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad, but you lose your right to bitch when you actively install something that blocks content that may or may not be required to view the information.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
I'm not running NoScript. I thought I made that clear in my other post.
It would be cool, if on the road, I could launch one of my games whereever I'm at (say a friends) and play my games. But instead of a service, I want to run the server myself.
There's streammygame.com for the pc (haven't tried it yet) but again it's a service and not standalone.
I really liked all his arguments, exactly the same as WebTV, also exactly the same as why keep mainframes and centralized computing.
Come on, didn't 30 years of history teach you anything at all?
A piece of "cloud?" I mean if this thing goes belly up, then what do you have? Years later (so long as the console still functions) you can play your Atari 2600 games, your Odyssey games, etc. Some may laugh at you but hey you own it, and can play until your gaming heart is content. I think this will be the "Betamax" or "HD-DVD" of the gaming world.