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Canadian Minister Lies On Net Surveillance Claims

Posted by kdawson on from the pants-on-fire dept.

An anonymous reader writes "As we discussed last month, the Canadian government has introduced Internet surveillance legislation that requires ISPs to disclose customer information without a warrant. Peter Van Loan, the Minister in charge, claims that a Vancouver kidnapping earlier this year shows the need for these powers. Michael Geist did some digging and revealed this as a lie — the Vancouver police acknowledge that the case did not involve an ISP request and the suspect is now in custody."

40 of 155 comments (clear)

  1. STOP THE PRESSES! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A politician lied? Oh my God, this is the most unexpected thing in the history of the universe. Everybody! Stop whatever it is you're doing and pay attention to the one and only lying politician in the world!

    1. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh, come on. It's his JOB to know. The guy either lied or he's incompetent. Either way, fire the bum!

    2. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by selven · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So if you do something bad, but do it a lot, it becomes normal and acceptable?

    3. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by vadim_t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yep, we should completely ignore it and let the lie stand unchallenged, so that a bad piece of legislation can become a law for the wrong reason.

    4. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by Tx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or perhaps he was simply misinformed or mistaken.

      So you mean that rather than being a liar, he might just be ignorant and incompetent? It's the job of politicians to get their facts straight when formulating the laws of the land. Our politicians are always complaining that people don't trust them any more, and that young people are disillusioned with politics. Well perhaps if we could trust what they fecking said, then that wouldn't be the case. It doesn't matter one jot whether this guy flat out lied, or whether he somehow conveniently got his facts wrong, it's just yet another event to knock the credibility of politicians back into the gutter.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    5. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by compro01 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Distinctly unlikely. The guy got 3 times as many votes as the closest competition in the last election.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    6. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by conureman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've been looking at the top of the Google results for Peter Van Loan, and he seems to be the Canadian version of Don Rumsfeld. Honest mistake? YMMV.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    7. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by value_added · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's the job of politicians to get their facts straight when formulating the laws of the land.

      A noble sentiment for an ideal world.

      In the real world, regrettably, democracies tend to have constitutents (known in the world of software development and systems administration as "lusers"), who expect their elected leaders to deliver. Shortsighted and selfish, to be sure, but that's another subject. The salient point is most don't care how they deliver or what the facts really are, so long as they get what they want.

      As for the correctness of facts, it's the job of the press to inform us, which means checking the facts as stated and reporting accordingly. For whatever reason, the press isn't doing their job, and the responsibility has fallen to an enterprising University professor and his blog.

      Both the politican the press should be taken to task for their failings, but kudos to Michael Geist for his efforts.

    8. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by The+Yuckinator · · Score: 3, Informative

      From TFS:

      "...the Vancouver police acknowledge that the case did not involve an ISP request and the suspect is now in custody."

      So no, there was no reason that any legislation like this would have sped up the apprehension of the kidnapper because they weren't looking to the ISP for evidence in the first place. Unfortunately that means YES, it was definitely a lie. Even if it's only from a position of ignorance, the MINISTER OF PUBLIC SAFETY better get his facts straight before spewing forth on any topic, let alone one that impacts every online citizen in the country.

      It's almost unheard of for Canadian politicians to be removed from office outside of an election but I'd say if the PM wants to keep any sort of respectability, he will need to remove Mr Van Loan from cabinet first thing on Monday morning.

    9. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only proves that democracy is the dictatorship of the stupid.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    10. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nobody is an expert on everything. That's a fact. Funny though that we kinda expect that from politicians.

      He got asked about it and instead of giving the honest answer (i.e. "I dunno, but I'll ask my experts and come back to you") he made up some answer. Why? Because for some odd reason people expect politicians to have an answer for everything.

      Personally I'd prefer a politician who just admits that he doesn't have an answer for everything but at least is honest. I'm just fed up with BS answers to the tune of "Get offa my back and just shut up".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by shentino · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem with politicians is that they are people in a position where they can largely ignore the law.

      I think anyone, no matter how honest he THINKS he is, will sooner or later succumb to tempation and abuse his power.

    12. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by joocemann · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You don't fire politicians, you hang and eviscerate them. Ask the Italians.

      Firing them would require a whole dismantling of systematic corporatism/cronyism along with a wait for them to finish their term in office. And we all know that doesn't work at all.

      I'm still way too happy to feel the need to take it that far. I think we all are, which would be a good explanation as to why 'we the people' haven't done anything about the atrocities of government for a century or more. Wouldn't you agree? I don't see a stone in your hand, nor mine.

      I honestly thought legislation about weapon controls would blow the 'revolution threshold' for NRA members... apparently they, too, are too happy to have cold dead hands.

      Really think about it... how fucked are we? Not that bad... not bad at all, really.

    13. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by CokeBear · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As a Canadian, I can assure you that he most certainly is the Canadian version of Don Rumsfeld. And the Prime Minister is our very own Dick Cheney. (He's not Bush, he's much smarter than that, which makes him all the more dangerous)

      --
      Reality has a liberal bias
    14. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by rueger · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...but I'd say if the PM wants to keep any sort of respectability ...

      Ah, you must be a recent immigrant to this country...

      --
      Three Squirrels
    15. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by RelaxedTension · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He got asked about it and instead of giving the honest answer (i.e. "I dunno, but I'll ask my experts and come back to you") he made up some answer. Why? Because for some odd reason people expect politicians to have an answer for everything.

      I gotta call bullshit on this one. As stated earlier, it's specifically his job to know this. He is writing a law that he knows will erode personal rights of privacy, and also knows the backlash that is possible. If he is not fully aware that he has "enhanced" the story, then he has no business writing the law in the first place.

    16. Re:STOP THE PRESSES! by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's the same concept as trying to boil a live frog. If you just throw it in boiling water it will immediately jump out, foiling your attempt to boil it. If, however, you throw it in cool water and slowly heat it, the frog won't jump out. It will stay comfortable while it cooks, up until the point at which it is cooked enough that it dies.

      Had legislatures simply dumped all the laws, restrictions, etc. that we have now on the founding generation, there would have been a major revolt. It would never work. But if you change just a few things a year, over the course of decades and centuries the population will tolerate quite a lot, because no one issue is big enough to fight for. Space them out a bit and the tolerance threshold is never reached.

      One day we'll just wake up dead. ;)

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  2. Re:Lessons from the Bush Administration. by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What, lying on surveillance claims?

    What should he lie on? Is it more comfortable than a latex-based memory-foam?

    --
    "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
  3. Lips by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    An old but all too often true observation:

    How do you tell if a politician is lying?

    His lips are moving.

    1. Re:Lips by Petrushka · · Score: 4, Informative

      His lips are moving.

      Sure. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't lynch them when you catch them at it.

  4. Re:Lessons from the Bush Administration. by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 5, Informative

    9/11 was America's Reichstag fire.

  5. Of course it is a lie... by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Tyranny-loving politicians always try to scare the shit out of you to make it seem like they have no choice but to take your freedoms away. And it is always something horrible, like kidnapping or child rape. That way, if you don't give them what they want, then *you* must be responsible for their kidnapping/rape/death since you stood by and didn't let them do anything.

    --
    Similar to the upcoming US election results
    1. Re:Of course it is a lie... by tomhudson · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Tyranny-loving politicians always try to scare the shit out of you to make it seem like they have no choice but to take your freedoms away. And it is always something horrible, like kidnapping or child rape. That way, if you don't give them what they want, then *you* must be responsible for their kidnapping/rape/death since you stood by and didn't let them do anything.

      That's right - and we saw it again last week. Somehow it's OUR fault that Roman Polanski avoided justice all these decades. "We", the peons, don't "get it".

      Fortunately, the power of the Internet is able to route around the brain-damaged "celebrity types" who signed that stupid petition expressing outrage that a pedophile should actually be arrested. counter-petition

      Maybe we need to charge public officials with corruption or fraud when they try to lie so blatantly. "That statement is no longer operative" is just one more fuddle duddle.

    2. Re:Of course it is a lie... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, he molested a child. Yes, he's a rapist.. But no, he's not a pedophile. He was absolutely convinced she was 17 (which is what the girl's mother told him (she should face charges too for effectively pimping her own daughter), which was the age of consent at the time in California.

    3. Re:Of course it is a lie... by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Think about the CHILDREN! Won't somebody PLEEEEEEASE think about the CHILDREN!!!

    4. Re:Of course it is a lie... by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd rather be responsible for the death of a single person than for the death of the liberty of everyone.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Of course it is a lie... by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He was absolutely convinced she was 17 (which is what the girl's mother told him

      An out-and-out LIE. He admitted during the hearing for the plea bargain that he KNEW she was 13. The mother also testified under oath at the grand jury that she had told him she was 13, because she was surprised that he wanted a model that old - most kid models are younger.

      He's a pedophile. Cunnilingus, vaginal, and anal sex, after doping her up. That's not just "a momentary weakness", as he's tried to argue. He was prescribed 150mg qualudes, but the one he gave her was 500mg, and he tried to dispose of another 500mg when he was arrested - probably part of his "date kit."

      That his films aren't worth watching is just a bonus.

  6. Re:Troll? by conureman · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yeah, but dig how I invoked Godwin on a first post. Woot!

    --
    The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
  7. back-door downloader lawsuits for mafiaa. by plasmacutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Customer information without a warrant.. why does that sound familiar?

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  8. Re:Well, what do you know by John+Hasler · · Score: 4, Funny

    > Canada has a conservative government after all.

    It must, because no liberal has ever told a lie in the entire history of the world (and, of course, everyone everywhere is either a liberal or a (spit) conservative. There are no other possibilities).

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  9. Oh all right by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Funny

    Fap Fap Fap... what this isn't 4chan?

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  10. For Canadians by beckett · · Score: 3, Informative

    put down the cardiac poutine and fire a few e-mails off, guys.

    here are email links to Federal Minister for Public Safety Peter Van Loan Opposition critics to : Federal Liberal Critic Mark Holland Public Safety and National Security NDP Don Davies

    1. Re:For Canadians by KraftDinner · · Score: 2

      I'll eat my poutine while I e-mail thank you very much.

  11. Re:Well, what do you know by wizardforce · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Most governments tend to lean "liberal" economically and "conservative" socially so authoritarian all around.

    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
  12. Re:Well, what do you know by Adambomb · · Score: 2, Informative

    and, of course, everyone everywhere is either a liberal or a (spit) conservative

    Note for those unaware: It's not just a random label thrown about in canada to polarize issues, the current government is headed by the Progressive Conservative party. And the current opposition are the Liberals.

    --
    Ice Cream has no bones.
  13. Re:SURE He THOUGHT She Was 17 ... by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Informative
    The poster who wrote that Polanski thought she was "old enough" was wrong - you can read the transcripts of the plea bargain at The Smoking Gun.
    1. Polanski admitted under oath during the plea bargain that he knew PRIOR to raping her that she was only 13. This was with his lawyers' advice and consent, and after being told by the judge what the legal implications were.
    2. The mother testified at the grand jury, also under oath, that she had told Polanski that her daughter was 13; she was surprised that Polanski wanted her to do some child modeling because photogs usually want models who are even younger.

    So we have both the testmony from the perp, after waiving his right to avoid self-incrimination as part of the guilty plea bargain, and a second witness, that he knew she was 13. What more proof does ANYONE want?

  14. Internet Town Hall meeting Oct. 26 Halifax by farbles · · Score: 5, Informative

    Concerns over this and other issues such as copyright laws, digital rights management issues, the Digital Divide, and privacy have prompted the Chebucto Community Net and the Dalhousie Student Union to hold a public Internet Town Hall meeting in Halifax, Nova Scotia on Monday, October 26th at 7 pm in the McInnes Room of the Dalhousie Student Union Building. I saw the notice on their website here: http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Current/CourtesyCCN.shtml

    Their main speaker is Laura Murray, co-author of Canadian Copyright: A Citizenâ(TM)s Guide, and they've got speakers on the other issues too. They're calling it "Who's Shaping Your Digital Future?" and it's noteworthy for being the only meeting of its kind in the Atlantic Provinces. I don't know why they're not promoting this better, maybe they don't have the money or something, but I know I'll be going to it.

    I wonder if anyone from the government or the mainstream media will be showing up.

  15. Re:Well, what do you know by Dragonslicer · · Score: 2, Funny

    Progressive Conservative party

    Wait, what?

  16. Re:Well, what do you know by jbr439 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not quite: a few years ago, the Progessive Conservative Party merged with the Reform Party to form the Consersative Party.

  17. Well its seems obvious that survelance is needed. by 3seas · · Score: 2, Insightful

    over some government officials....