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Dow Chemical Rolling Out Solar Shingles Next Year

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on from the one-more-thing-to-break dept.

Several users wrote to tell us that Dow Chemical plans on selling solar shingles as early as next year. The solar version can be integrated with normal asphalt shingling and will be introduced in 2010, with a wider roll-out scheduled for 2011. "The shingle will use thin-film cells of copper indium gallium diselenide (CIGS), a photovoltaic material that typically is more efficient at turning sunlight into electricity than traditional polysilicon cells. Dow is using CIGS cells that operate at higher than 10 percent efficiency, below the efficiencies for the top polysilicon cells -- but would cost 10 to 15 percent less on a per-watt basis."

168 comments

  1. One more thing to break indeed! by PeterAitch · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It seems unlikely that these will weather very well, so we'll have to see how they cope with thermal cycling and storm stresses. Nice to note that things have moved along since I worked on Si photovoltaics - it's taken longer than I expected, though

    1. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by thewils · · Score: 1

      Hopefully they'll have the kinks sorted out when I need a new roof in twenty years!

      --
      Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
    2. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

      That's a good point, maybe we should cover them with some sort of protective layer. Hmmm, we could make sure the protective layer has good traction too so people can walk on their roofs safely without falling. I know, we can cover them with sandpaper! I'm surprised this hasn't been thought of before. =P

      --
      Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
    3. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It seems unlikely that these will weather very well, so we'll have to see how they cope with thermal cycling and storm stresses.

      I'd think that people can be reasonably expected to be somewhat unhappy when their roof doesn't last as long as it should. So I'd think Dow would have put a bit of effort into making sure that these things don't break that easily.

    4. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      It seems unlikely that these will weather very well, so we'll have to see how they cope with thermal cycling and storm stresses.

      I'd think that people can be reasonably expected to be somewhat unhappy when their roof doesn't last as long as it should. So I'd think Dow would have put a bit of effort into making sure that these things don't break that easily.

      I hope nothing in these make them less fire resistant than proper shingles these days.

      (Yes, I live in Southern California. How did you guess?)

    5. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by moon3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The notoriously pricey roofing costs, with electric shingles the maintenance might skyrocket and one can easily lose all the potential electrical "savings". They wire each shingle ? I would like to see some pilot deployment in action >>

    6. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Roofing granules do a good job of blocking sunlight. Most premium shingles are made with polymer modified asphalt that has to be protected from UV that would otherwise degrade the polymer. The granules do this.

      I don't think they could cover the panels with granules.

    7. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by PeterAitch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If they are caught in a fire, the combustion products will hardly be bio-friendly; in fact "toxic" would be a better description. That said, they are not going to be inherently combustible, unless there are lots of organics left in any binder which might be used to keep them on the substrate (i.e. the shingles). Most likely, the shingles are post-treated to produce a rather thick "thin-film" and then given a top coating (a) for anti-reflection purposes and (b) for mechanical/abrasion resistance. As several other posters have noted it's not clear from the article how the front or back electrical contact(s) are designed, either mechanically or electrically.

    8. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by hedwards · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unlikely, given the speedy installation, it's a pretty good bet that the system is installed as a set of larger shingles pre-attached to each other. These are most likely then wired into whatever electronics handle the power management. There's a trade off between percentage of roof covered per unit and cost of replacing a broken or defective cell.

      If you need a new roof, this might be a decent deal, but if you don't, the break even point for these appears to be roughly the same as with tradtional cells. However it's probably longer since you're not really able to control the orientation and you can't set up tracking systems.

    9. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It seems unlikely that these will weather very well, so we'll have to see how they cope with thermal cycling and storm stresses. Nice to note that things have moved along since I worked on Si photovoltaics - it's taken longer than I expected, though

      They'll be sold with a 20 year warranty, and trust me: they wouldn't be willing to offer that warranty without being confident that they wouldn't have to pay up regularly.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    10. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by icebike · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The point about walking on roofs is a key issue.

      Over the life of a house, people have to do this more often than you might imagine. The article is thin on details about just how durable and walkable these things are.

      Probably not for snow country, but anything that could absorb some of the air conditioning load would be welcome.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    11. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by StrategicIrony · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It says they can be mixed with regular shingles, so I would imagine one would make "walkways" of regular shingles to access things like roof-vents, gutters, swamp coolers, chimneys, etc.

    12. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by icebike · · Score: 2, Interesting

      By the time your roof is on fire, toxicity is the furthest thing from your mind.

      Asphalt shingles burn well, once lit. The graduals really only protect it from flying embers. And the smoke is fairly nasty.

      Disposal is a larger issue. Even you average wood shingle is will last 100 years in a land fill. Asphalt is anyone's guess.

           

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    13. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can't walk on slate shingles either yet people still find ways to work on slate roofs. I doubt that they don't have a solution.

    14. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Velox_SwiftFox · · Score: 1

      You can't walk on slate shingles either yet people still find ways to work on slate roofs. I doubt that they don't have a solution.

      A point that deserves modding up. Include tile roofs and probably other kinds. I think this amounts to scaffolding, temporary platforms, and generally avoiding such walking.

    15. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I'm going to hazard a guess that they are basically the same 30 year asphalt shingles they already sell with the PV film fixed to it somehow and a universal connector system that automatically lines up and connects with regular installation.

    16. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      The point about walking on roofs is a key issue.

      Oh I don't know instead of worrying about the traction of said solar shingles, why not just purchase some special purpose shoes? Certainly steps toward off the grid energy independence far surpasses concerns of roof traction.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    17. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by icebike · · Score: 1

      Traction?

      No no, I was worrying about the shingles and damage to the wiring grid to which they are connected when sattelite tv guy stomps up there to screw his dish down.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    18. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by shentino · · Score: 1

      Sounds similiar to the same problem that putting solar panels in assfault roads.

    19. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Jukeman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I had an old farmhouse for 30 Years with steep (45 degree) slate roof, lots of repair people had to walk on it (a lot of brick chimney repair and flashing, very little slate repair), some without ropes. No one ever broke one by walking on them. Personally, since they are all held in with two loose nails, I though one should slip out when stepping on them; but none ever did.

    20. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by polar+red · · Score: 1

      air conditioning load

      insulate your house !

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    21. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      not only the weathering concern, but from a construction standpoint, i'll bet these are a bitch to install.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    22. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hovercraft.

    23. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and then runs 4 screws through one of your solar shingles. tell me that's not going to cause some problems with them.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    24. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he's screwing the dish into your shingles, you have bigger problems than just damaging the solar shingle. The installer shouldn't be screwing into shingles in the first place. At that point you might as well worry about him screwing it into your car.

    25. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      look at satellite dish installs as you drive through town some time. dime to dollar, you'll see more than a few screwed down to shingle roofs.
      its no secret that some installers will do anything, include make your roof leak, to get a signal so they can go home.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    26. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Disposal is a larger issue. Even you average wood shingle is will last 100 years in a land fill. Asphalt is anyone's guess.

      I suspect that within 50 years we'll be mining our landfills anyway, so I don't worry about that issue so much.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    27. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by swillden · · Score: 1

      Unlikely, given the speedy installation, it's a pretty good bet that the system is installed as a set of larger shingles pre-attached to each other.

      They don't necessarily even have to be pre-attached. If they have relatively large contact plates, placed so that they'll touch in the regular overlapped configuration, it could be as simple as just wiring the top row of shingles in a section.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    28. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 1

      Even you average wood shingle is will last 100 years in a land fill.

      So what you're saying is that it's environmentally friendly because it sequesters carbon for 100 years?

    29. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by atamido · · Score: 1

      I'm confused why we're still using asphalt shingles in the first place. Wouldn't it be easier/faster/better/cheaper to do something else?

      For example, one of these:
      1. Spray a water proof coating onto the wood roof.
      2. Stick a water proof sheet to the wood roof.
      3. Cover the roof with galvanized steel or hard plastic.

      I will never understand people's fetish with covering their houses with at asphalt shingles instead of almost anything else. When considering energy costs during summer, dark shingles made of tar seems like a poor choice.

    30. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by swillden · · Score: 2, Informative

      Tar shingles are cheap, easy to install (anyone can learn how in a few minutes), self-seal given just a couple of warm days and even self-heal to some degree.

      Where I live winter heating costs significantly exceed summer cooling costs, so I'd think the best choice is a slippery black roof so snow would slide off and the sun could heat the attic. Even better, of course, would be a power-generating roof which could be used to heat during the winter and cool during the summer.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    31. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Bob-taro · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can't walk on slate shingles either yet people still find ways to work on slate roofs.

      I worked in roofing for a while. You can easily walk on a surprisingly steep pitch once you're used to it (I doubt I could anymore). Usually, though, we would walk on boards that were set on metal brackets that hung from nails under the shingles. Even on a low pitch, we would usually put at least one row of boards near the bottom, in case someone slipped. When the roof was done, we'd slide the brackets off the nails, then slide the bracket over the nail head and under the shingle and hammer the nail flush through the shingle. I actually never worked with slate, but I imagine you could use the same method. Maybe you'd have to use a rubber mallet for the last step because the slate is brittle, or maybe you could skip the last step because the nail wouldn't ever work up through the slate anyway.

      --
      Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
    32. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      insulate your house !

      Doesn't help very much if you're in an area where the temp doesn't drop below 100 even at night during parts of the year.

      A good idea in such cases would be to build/insulate your house correctly for the climate, then power AC to make up the remaining requirements via solar. Whether this be by solar panels powering a heat pump or using direct thermal heat to power an absorption chiller.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    33. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by adonoman · · Score: 1

      Where I live winter heating costs significantly exceed summer cooling costs,

      This is a point that gets ignored in a lot of environmental recommendations. Where I live, we have about 10 days a year where we need air conditioning, and even then it's a luxury, not a necessity. But we have 6-8 months of heating our houses. My annual air conditioning cost is around $50 of renewable hydroelectricity. My annual heating costs approach $1500 of non-renewable natural gas. Obviously, my best point of attack for optimization is the work on keeping the house warm. That means I have a steep roof to shed snow, and the darkest shingles I could find.

    34. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by polar+red · · Score: 1

      I doubt the GP already has >1 foot of insulation in his roof, and >6 inch of insulation in his walls, and passive-house glazing. insulation helps against cold AND heat.

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    35. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Hovercraft? On a photovoltaic roof? I'm afraid it would soon become full of eelectrons.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    36. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Captain+Hook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      snow is actually a really good insulator

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    37. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

      You can worry a bit less about the weather. If the shingles or anything on your roof is fragile, install a covering mechanism to keep it safe.

      But I imagine these shingles should have some kind of polymer coating that will keep them durable.

      Shingles are good for one-size-fits-all installations, but why not introduce the product as single large sheets so that people can try out the technology without having to install individual shingles with the high labor costs?

      --
      Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
    38. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      The trick to walking on slate/tile/etc roofs is you need to step on the vertical joints between the tiles. (Or for an S-tile roof, stepping in the valleys)

      It's the flexing that causes a tile to break. The joints can flex, the center of the tiles cannot.

    39. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      We use asphalt shingles because they are:

      1) cheap
      2) can be made in a variety of colors and stiles
      3) cheap
      4) easy to install
      5) cheap
      6) Last a good amount of time
      7) cheap

      Metal roofs (tin, copper, steel, etc) are not uncommon, and do last much longer than asphalt. However, they're much more expensive to install.

      Another common option is the "built up roof" with layers of tar paper glued together with asphalt, and topped with rocks.

      Lastly, most of the time a waterproof membrane is installed directly on the wood roof. They cover this membrane with shingles/metal/etc to protect it from sunlight.

    40. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by artson · · Score: 1

      I have solar hot water panels on my house roof right now. At the time, I gave thought to placing them on a ground level steel rack (I have lots of space). My experience with panels on the roof has not been all negative, but I'd still prefer having them at ground level.
      Roofs are good at keeping the rain out. It isn't a good idea to put up a waterproof roof then punch holes in it for plumbing and mounting, and besides, it's pretty difficult to work on the panels.
      I suppose solar shingles will sell fairly well, but when it comes time, I'd really rather mount photovoltaic panels on a ground level steel rack where they will be easy to maintain and clean. As well, I can ensure optimal angle to the sun and still be able to walk about on my roof without worrying about stepping on things that shouldn't be stepped on.

      --
      In times of trouble, the smell of frying onions usually gives confidence and comfort.
    41. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They'll be sold with a 20 year warranty, and trust me: they wouldn't be willing to offer that warranty without being confident that they wouldn't have to pay up regularly.

      Exactly. They're quite confident that they won't have to pay up regularly, but trust *me* on this: It's not (necessarily) because their products are good.

      I'm in this business (building-integrated photovoltaics as well as roofing) and there's one thing that's become abundantly clear: Roofing material warranties have no correlation to the lifespan of the products. Warranties in this sector are nothing more than a marketing tool; only a tiny percentage of buyers ever make a claim, partly because most people don't keep their property long enough to see the failures happen, and once the new owner has a failure, either the warranty was only to the original purchaser, or nobody even remembers who made the product anymore (something they help along by not putting their name anywhere on the products.)

      Of course, it's possible that these shingles will have a longer lifespan, since they're not made from asphalt. But what about the rest of the roof? In my experience, it's not terribly practical to replace just *some* shingles on a roof. But I think the biggest problem is in the interconnections - I hope they come up with something better than what's been done in the past with solar shingles: LOTS of holes through the roof deck, one for each shingle, and a mess of wires inside the attic. This really screws up the roofing underlayment, which is an incredibly important layer in steep-slope hydrokinetic roofing systems (read: what's on 99+% of houses.)

      All this solar-shingle business seems like such an ugly hack to me. You're taking a form-factor that goes back to an attempt at imitating the look of slate roofing - a material with the limitation of being installed in small pieces - and making a photovoltaic panel fit into the same small-pieces appearance. I like the building-integrated PV concept a lot, but there's a much better way to do it.

      (Disclosure: My company makes and installs this system.) Here's the smart way to do it: A thin-film PV panel, made in long/narrow (0.16"x15.5"x108"=68W or 0.16"x15.5"x216"=136W) strips, permanently glued to a metal standing-seam roof panel. All of the wiring gets concealed under the ridge. This system costs less per watt than almost any I've been able to find pricing on - especially solar shingles. (My installed system pricing is around $6.50-$7.50/watt.) It also takes less time to install (I have no idea where they got the man-hour figures in the article, they're complete nonsense.) And on top of all that, it uses as its mounting system a roofing material which is, arguably, the best available. What can't be argued is whether it lasts longer than asphalt shingles. I won't link to my company, since that would be blatant advertising, and we're a local-only installer anyway.

      I'm also not buying into the "anyone can install it" marketing BS from TFA. Somewhere, all of those panels will be wired together, and at that point you'll be dealing with potentially lethal voltages on all but the smallest system. I see no way that they'll get around the requirement of having a licensed electrician make the connections, which is a building code/safety issue - particularly if it's connected to an inverter and thus to a building's electrical system. Even ignoring the electrical issues, do you really think that Joe Ladder-and-a-pickup-roofer has the knowledge to engineer a PV system to, for example, position the solar shingles to avoid shading from another roof slope? Or if it's even a usable location for PV (shading issues, etc.)?

      I forsee a future with a lot of poorly planned and installed PV systems that are not, and will never, pay for themselves - either financially or environmentally.

      -G

    42. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Hi-

      I'm in this group at Dow. (Hey, this is the second research project I've been on that made /. Good or bad??)

      It's funny to see some of the biggest concerns on here are things like walking on the shingles, dropping them, installing, and connecting. I have to say that the biggest strength of these are those issues. You can throw a hammer at them. Drop them from a roof. They go through stringent hail testing, etc. The tests things like this have to go through are very tough - including UL (and they just snap together easily at the electrical connectors, and there's only one hole that's drilled through the roof for any wiring.)

      Other issues are more challenging, and we're working on them. I think the big key is to get something out there that is easy and simple and cheap. Maybe it's not the record breaking Best Ever PV Device, but that's not the point.

      Recycling/etc issues are not a problem with these. They are not CdTe, the PV is on steel, etc.- they look at those issues too.

      There was a good short article in the NYT last week about solar shingles and some different companies using them. I say the more the merrier!!

    43. Re:One more thing to break indeed! by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Dow has been working on these puppies for years. Not only have they put effort into making sure they're durable, they also had the goal of making them cheap and easy to install, which is another huge advantage over standard residential photovoltaics.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
  2. Installation? by seanadams.com · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They say these can be installed by standard roofing techniques... I don't know if anyone else has ever nailed down asphalt shingles but it's about as low-tech as it gets. So the question is how do these interconnect electrically?

    I could imagine a couple ways - perhaps there are contacts that need to be aligned prior to nailing. Either that, or they intend for an electrician to come in after the roofers and attach a bus bar or something. Anyone got the full story?

    The future for residential solar is not in the highest-tech, highest efficiency panels. Rather, it will be the system which gives the lowest $/W after ALL costs, including installation, depreciation, and in this case, savings because it also serves as your actual roof. Sounds like a great idea to me.

    1. Re:Installation? by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 1

      The article states "can be integrated with" rather than "built into". They also quote a generic install time as compared to existing solar panels, not a time per square or some similar thing.

      I don't know what temperature solar cells can handle but the shingle lines I've seen run coat with asphalt at around 200C. They also run around 1200 feet per minute, so you'd have to be laying those cells down pretty damn fast.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    2. Re:Installation? by microcars · · Score: 4, Interesting
      There is a home that my son-in-law built just north of Chicago that has "Solar Slate" installed in portions of the roof that match the asphalt shingles. It was installed by a local roofing company around 2003, you can see a photos of the install HERE.
      Did not RTFA and while these are slightly different than what is mentioned these things have apparently held up very well so far for the people that live there.

      Sort of an aerial view of one part of the house with the slates installed here.

      If you can't see the photos you probably crashed the guy's server, I think it is hosted on his home computer...

      --
      I like microcars
    3. Re:Installation? by hoggoth · · Score: 1

      Perhaps English isn't your native language, but I cannot parse what you are trying to say:

      > the shingle lines I've seen run coat with asphalt at around 200C
      What does that mean? When they get hot does asphalt condense out of thin air to coat them?

      > They also run around 1200 feet per minute, so you'd have to be laying those cells down pretty damn fast.
      This one has me really perplexed. Do the shingles get up and chase after you?

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    4. Re:Installation? by siriuskase · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if it was Dow, but I read the install instructions for one brand of solar shingles. The shingles are installed like regular shingles except that first you drill a couple of holes in the roof and drop a couple of wires into those holes. Then, when the shingles are all nailed down, someone goes into the attic and connects up all those wires.

      --
      If you must moderate, please moderate as irrelevent, not something bad, because I'm sure someone will find this interest
    5. Re:Installation? by seanadams.com · · Score: 1

      the shingle lines I've seen run coat with asphalt at around 200C

      What does that mean? When they get hot does asphalt condense out of thin air to coat them?

      I had to recompile a couple times, but it does actually parse:

      shingle = adjective
      lines = means "assembly lines" (subject)
      seen run = means "seen running"
      coat is the active, transitive verb, referring to the process of coating the shingles with asphalt

      Or something like that. In other words, he's talking about how they're manufactured.

    6. Re:Installation? by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 2, Informative

      English is not my native language but I've been speaking it quite a long time. But I did fuck up that post.

      Shingles are typically made by passing a thin fiberglass reinforcement under what is essentially a pipe out of which asphalt is pouring. The asphalt is about 200 celsius. The fiberglass reinforcement is moving at a speed of about 1200 feet per minute.

      The possibility exists that the solar panels are added to the shingle in a separate process, glued on or the like, after they've been produced on a traditional shingle manufacturing line.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    7. Re:Installation? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I can see where the shingles are pre-drilled, one could possibly used a 2" screw. I live close to the beach, so if I can get 1/3 life out of the electronic product, that's break even. My main roof parasites are Moss, and Sea Gulls. So how much would a 10'x20' roof cost?

    8. Re:Installation? by gjyoung · · Score: 1

      Also consider the full manufacturing impact on environment (chemical, energy, etc..), disposal cost (physical and environmental), maintenance, and other things almost always left out of these "gee whiz bang" energy solutions. I have yet to see a complete cradle to grave analysis on many of these, and some of the solutions being toted out there are self defeating to their own claims and purpose when looked at on the whole.

    9. Re:Installation? by MrLogic17 · · Score: 1

      Facinating system - however I noticed that the house has copper trim. COPPER trim next to a whole lot of solar cells.

      Just say'n. :)

      .

    10. Re:Installation? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      If you can't see the photos you probably crashed the guy's server, I think it is hosted on his home computer...

      Solution: Coral cached link of photos and aerial photo.

    11. Re:Installation? by relguj9 · · Score: 1

      They say these can be installed by standard roofing techniques... I don't know if anyone else has ever nailed down asphalt shingles but it's about as low-tech as it gets. So the question is how do these interconnect electrically?

      I could imagine a couple ways - perhaps there are contacts that need to be aligned prior to nailing. Either that, or they intend for an electrician to come in after the roofers and attach a bus bar or something. Anyone got the full story?

      The future for residential solar is not in the highest-tech, highest efficiency panels. Rather, it will be the system which gives the lowest $/W after ALL costs, including installation, depreciation, and in this case, savings because it also serves as your actual roof. Sounds like a great idea to me.

      It uses Tesla technology to transmit the energy through the air and through your roof into a single point in your home that is identified by a homing beacon.

    12. Re:Installation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't let that goof bug you too much. Though your description was pretty meagre I understood perfectly. I'm sure many others did as well.

  3. Recycle? by NaCh0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What happens when the CIGS cells wear out?

    Are they toxic? Can they be recycled?

    1. Re:Recycle? by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 1

      There could be a niche market in solar shingle recycling. Assuming some still work after 30 years, you could create a makeshift powerstation from them if you had land.

      --
      God spoke to me.
    2. Re:Recycle? by syphax · · Score: 2, Informative

      First Solar has this covered (for their own CIGS panels)

      --
      Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
  4. I beg to differ. by NoYob · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Dow Solar Solutions said it expects "an enthusiastic response" from roofing contractors for the new shingles, since they require no specialized skills or knowledge of solar systems to install.

    What?!? Roofers just lay out the shingles and nail them up there with pneumatic nail guns. They may not have the skills to wire them, place the wires correctly under the regular shingles to not only preserve the solar shingles but to make sure none of the shingles leak, and I'm sure you can't treat these things like regular shingles: drop them off the truck on to the ground, crane them up to the peak of the roof and let them fold over it and sit there for a couple of days until the installers get there, walk on them, and every other abuse can commit against asphalt shingles because they can take it, after all.

    There will have to be some sort of training or there's going to be some really unhappy home owners when their new solar roof doesn't produce as much electricity, if any, as they thought because of screwed up shingles.

    --
    It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    1. Re:I beg to differ. by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      TFA says "thin film" cells, so I'd imagine they're fairly flexible.There's also a known pattern to how they'll be installed (overlapping horizontal rows that are each offset by about half the length of one shingle), which could probably be used to print wires on the upper part of the top side and the lower part of the back side such that they'll make fairly good contact.

    2. Re:I beg to differ. by serbanp · · Score: 1

      The CIGS PV cell is called "thin film" because the photoelectric sandwich is deposited as thin layers on top of a GLASS plate. Oh, and they apparently are (very) moisture-sensitive, so having them last 20-25 years will be difficult.

    3. Re:I beg to differ. by NoYob · · Score: 1
      The CIGS PV cell is called "thin film" because the photoelectric sandwich is deposited as thin layers on top of a GLASS plate.

      When I saw "roofers" I immediately thought of the guys that put in the asphalt. Now, the guys who put in the slate or terracotta roofs might be better able to deal since those roofing systems are a bit more complicated and the materials have similar handling characteristics of glass.

      Still, more training will be needed.

      Oh, and they apparently are (very) moisture-sensitive, so having them last 20-25 years will be difficult.

      I guess that will be another revenue stream for the roofers and additional cost associated with these things: routine inspection and maintenance.

      --
      It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    4. Re:I beg to differ. by apoc.famine · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Agreed.
       
      I highly doubt that two guys with a case of beer, a couple of utility knives, and a nail gun can lay these down and have them work as they are supposed to. Shingling a roof really doesn't require any skills, other than doing the peaks and valleys. If you can put down a shingle, and nail it to the roof, you're golden. If you can hack the excess off that hangs over the side with a knife, you can shingle 95% of a house.
       
      Ignoring any interconnections between the shingles that must be lined up, (because, that's beyond a roofer's knowledge base) you still have to tie it into the house electricity. And you have to be able to slap the roof down in the beating sun, while standing on it, and driving nails through it. How exactly does that work if the roof is generating electricity as you do so?

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    5. Re:I beg to differ. by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The CIGS PV cell is called "thin film" because the photoelectric sandwich is deposited as thin layers on top of a GLASS plate. Oh, and they apparently are (very) moisture-sensitive, so having them last 20-25 years will be difficult.

      The substrate isn't necessarily glass. Flexible metal substrates have been used already by other companies. They do bend, and they're encased in a flexible moisture barrier and offered with a warranty that lasts as long as the lifetime claims. I don't think that the companies selling these would be willing to offer the warranty without a reasonably good expectation that the cells would actually last that long.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    6. Re:I beg to differ. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention safety for the installers. I once heard a PV installer tell a story about someone he knew who was working on a PV array at night, without taking the proper safety precautions (such as being harnessed). There was a lightning strike miles away, and the flash caused the array to produce enough voltage to knock him off the roof. Also, I think the safest way to install a solar array is to leave the series connections between panels until the very last step...not sure how that works with shingles

    7. Re:I beg to differ. by RedWizzard · · Score: 1

      The CIGS PV cell is called "thin film" because the photoelectric sandwich is deposited as thin layers on top of a GLASS plate. Oh, and they apparently are (very) moisture-sensitive, so having them last 20-25 years will be difficult.

      The substrate isn't necessarily glass. Flexible metal substrates have been used already by other companies. They do bend, and they're encased in a flexible moisture barrier and offered with a warranty that lasts as long as the lifetime claims. I don't think that the companies selling these would be willing to offer the warranty without a reasonably good expectation that the cells would actually last that long.

      The Dow site says they are manufactured on a flexible substrate. Since it's Dow Chemical that's making these I bet there is no glass involved anywhere.

    8. Re:I beg to differ. by catmistake · · Score: 3, Funny

      Everything is relative. Perhaps these solar shingles take a few extra steps beyond regular shingles, but have you seen what a pain in the ass the nuclear reactor shingles are to install? You need a friggin' nuclear engineering degree! Sure, the effeciency is through the roof, but at what cost? As unlikely as China Syndrome is, it's an insurance nightmare. And personally, I don't want my great great grandchildren toiling to replace a spent uranium ceiling. Solar it is!

      --
      The Admin and the Engineer
    9. Re:I beg to differ. by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why would you need routine inspection? Very few damage profiles will fail to affect the output of the PVs, so you ought to be able to do the inspection every day by simply polling each cell.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    10. Re:I beg to differ. by forand · · Score: 2, Insightful
      These are similar to slate shingles if my reading is correct. You cannot:

      drop them off the truck on to the ground, crane them up to the peak of the roof and let them fold over it and sit there for a couple of days until the installers get there, walk on them, and every other abuse can commit against asphalt shingles because they can take it, after all.

      with slate shingles. So while any random guy off the street cannot put on a slate roof there are quite a few business specializing in this in most areas of the USA. Since you have to make sure you align slate tiles to prevent leaking you need only design the solar connections to connect in broad regions where leaking would be prevented.

    11. Re:I beg to differ. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I am not a roofer, nor electrician... But using some sense, I could hypothesize a good edumacated guess...

      If I designed something like this, I'd have a band of separate material at the top. And mark on the package somewhere that you're only supposed to nail that part. I'm sure a contract roofer shouldn't have a problem nailing above some dotted line on a solar shingle. Thus no nails would go through the actual solar panel part. Then they sit on the roof loose other than the nailed down part. Then the guy doing the wiring comes along after the roofers with some flat romex. And he finishes the job that secures the shingles on the bottom half in the process of electrically connecting them. I'd make the part at the top flexible enough that it's OK to fold back the shingles, and they'd have a peel-away with adhesive foam tape on the backing side. And also on the back a groove for the wire with two prongs that you would push through the insulation on the flat romex to make an electrical connection. It would just be a matter of running your wire along the bottom of each row, then going back over while peeling something off the back of the shingles and pushing them down so they're glued in a way that secures them and the wire in place. It wouldn't be that complicated at all. The process seems obvious that they'd be wired in parallel, so the voltage would be determined by the panel design. So each panel would add to the amount of current available to a system that is designed for a known voltage. That would simplify the work on the electrical end. (You won't have voltage leak problems this way, or random system voltages because of a half-assed job. A qualified electrician should be doing this part, as he should be aware that despite a seemingly low voltage there's possibly enough current available in the daytime to seriously zap his ass.)

      Now I'm curious as to how far off such a guess is. It seems simple enough to be obvious the way I picture it, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a patent on this idea already.

  5. Repeat Ten Times Fast by audubon · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sally sells solar shingles by the seashore...

    1. Re:Repeat Ten Times Fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sally sells solar shingle cells by the seashore...

      There, fixed that for you...

  6. Environmental impact? by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The traditional mono- and polysilicon panel makers catch hell for using things like lead (leading to RoHS solder being used and etc)... what's the plan for recycling these puppies?

    (don't get me wrong, I'm loving the idea, but you know someone's gonna bitch about it...)

    Also, since there are places that see annual windstorms which tend to rip the occasional shingle off of the roof, err, how much would it cost to repair/replace?

    It'll be hammered out eventually (err, s'cuse the pun), but it's something I hope that someone is thinking about all this today, instead of the being blinded by the whole 'gee-whiz' factor that may come around to bite the whole renewables movement in the butt later on.

    (disclosure - I work IT in this industry - take it as you will).

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    1. Re:Environmental impact? by syphax · · Score: 1

      Here's the plan for recycling these (at least, First Solar's) puppies

      --
      Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
    2. Re:Environmental impact? by winwar · · Score: 1

      "...what's the plan for recycling these puppies?"

      Well we don't recycle asphalt shingles that contain nasty chemicals at the present time. I doubt that these are any worse. Therefore we don't.

      As you noted, people will whine. But you don't see them whining about regular shingles. Therefore we ignore them.

    3. Re:Environmental impact? by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      Also, since there are places that see annual windstorms which tend to rip the occasional shingle off of the roof, err, how much would it cost to repair/replace?

      Perhaps you would want to look into securing the shingles properly in the first place? Or if you live in places where your roof is going to get ripped off anyway, either move or don't build using expensive to repair/replace materials in the first place.

      Just like how people living in Venice don't build their houses out of mud bricks.

      For some strange reason, people always expect that new products should be suitable for use EVERYWHERE otherwise they're just crap. Why haven't anyone made a two piece bathing suit that's suitable for outdoor use in Antarctica? Why is my cagoule useless in the Sahara? Why does my water bottle freeze over when I'm on a dog sled expedition to the North Pole in the middle of winter?

    4. Re:Environmental impact? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dow chemical is the new name for union carbide. The guys that obliterated bhopal and then walked away.
      These guys do not give a fuck about the environment.

    5. Re:Environmental impact? by fbwhrdpmtajg · · Score: 1

      I imagine the best you can hope for would be proper disposal rather than recycling.

      Although even that is the same as the plan for disposing of most household hazardous waste: trash it. Because of a lack of federal, state, and local regulations requiring special handling of stuff like this, there exist no facilities which can handle it.

      The scale of waste produced by households is also so comparatively small that forcing every little thing to be handled would be insanely expensive. If you're lucky you might have an annual community collection of hazardous waste where you can drop off a year's worth at once; although you have to collect and store the stuff yourself until then and the net impact is so insignificant that it's probably not worth the trouble.

      One great thing about most of these systems is that they can take a certain amount of abuse/damage and will continue to function with just a reduction in power output or efficiency. In most cases the engineer would plan for the reduced output over the (20 year?) lifetime of the installation with plenty of extra capacity. Repair/replacement would be unnecessary unless something dramatic happens to the entire roof.

    6. Re:Environmental impact? by Inda · · Score: 1

      We don't have shingles in the UK, we have tiles. Before I moved into my house, I made sure the old asbestos tiles were removed and replaced. Every other house in my street has asbestos tiles.

      I wouldn't worry about recycling.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
  7. Have you ever *seen* the guys who put on rooves? by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We're talking contractors here. Assuming they *don't* steal your money outright, you're lucky that the shingles stay on at all, much less have well connected, insulated wiring.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  8. They're rolling our solar shingles?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's awesome, I didn't even know that they were thinking of me

  9. Direct Link to DOW by swanzilla · · Score: 3, Informative

    Dow Solar

    FTA

    "This is just one example of how Dow's $1.5 billion annual R&D investment is allowing us to deliver practical solutions for some of the world's most critical challenges," said Dow Chairman and CEO Andrew N. Liveris.

    They might have hit this one out of the park if the projected $20 billion by 2020 is remotely close.

    --
    0 = 1 + e^(Alt something)
    1. Re:Direct Link to DOW by Shark · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nah, they just factored in inflation.

      --
      Mind the frickin' laser...
  10. Re:Have you ever *seen* the guys who put on rooves by PeterAitch · · Score: 1

    Roving roovers?

  11. Not enough indium in the world by Prune · · Score: 2, Interesting

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16550-why-sustainable-power-is-unsustainable.html

    --
    "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    1. Re:Not enough indium in the world by syphax · · Score: 1

      The article you linked to links to another relevant article:

      --
      Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
    2. Re:Not enough indium in the world by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately same goes for other things like lithium and Neodymium. Not that they're really that closely related to this, but one of the things that nobody likes to talk about is that a lot these really important elements are just not common enough for the amount of use we need. We'll need more high efficiency technologies and to use less at some point in the equation.

    3. Re:Not enough indium in the world by Vellmont · · Score: 1

      Which is an estimate based on current reserves and production levels. Indium is rare, but it's not THAT rare:

      Indium ranks 61st in abundance in the Earth's crust at approximately 0.25 ppm,[13] which means it is more than three times as abundant as silver, which occurs at 0.075 ppm.[14]

      The quoted article says Indium was up to $1000 per kilo. Silver is around $500 per kilo, and is 3 times less abundant.

      You also have to understand that before LCD screens, there wasn't a big demand for Indium. Basing any conclusions about having enough Indium based on production and reserves today is just wrong. Nobody does exploration and mining for something with little value, or low demand. Indium until recently didn't have a large demand for it.

      --
      AccountKiller
    4. Re:Not enough indium in the world by timmarhy · · Score: 1
      your understanding of resources is horribly flawed.... it doesn't matter if indium was 100 times more abundant if the processing of it isn't fesible. because indium isn't in concerntrated deposits like silver, it's horribly hard to mine. you need something else there as a sweetner to make it economical. if you bother to read the very next line in wikiperdia it states "Fewer than 10 indium minerals are known, none occurring in significant deposits"

      sure you could just strip mine bulk tonnes to get at it to make up for how low the grade is, but the environmental impact of that would cancel out the positive impact of the solar cells.

      they do mention increasingly effect recovery rates, but it can't be too effective given the indium price has risen from $94/kg to $700/kg in the last 7 years. this tells me supply isn't keeping up with demand at all. given the spot price has gone up 800%, if indium deposits really are out there you'd see a lot of announcments about projects to mine it - there aren't.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    5. Re:Not enough indium in the world by plastbox · · Score: 1

      I have no clue how much iridium goes into the production of an LCD, but with almost every household in the western world possessing at least 1, if not 3-4 LCD monitors, won't the mainstream adaption of OLED mean there will be a significant supply of this metal?

      If it takes 2 recycled LCD monitors/TV's to make a one square meter solar cell, every household could have 400W (peak) "free" renewable power. Assuming, of course, that OLED does ever get out there in significant sizes and at relatively affordable prices. I mean, I remember reading that OLED was going to revolutionize all our living rooms within 1-2 years back in 2002-2003. =/

    6. Re:Not enough indium in the world by BlackPignouf · · Score: 1

      Indium is relatively rare. So what? Don't expect it to be included in every single solar cell!
      Si-based solar cells 'only' have 25% of efficiency. So what? Just put some more m^2!
      Hydrogen conversion is a waste of energy. So what? It has nothing to do with solar panels, and if you don't like it, don't use it.

      That's a disappointing article from "The new scientist"....

    7. Re:Not enough indium in the world by Vellmont · · Score: 1


      your understanding of resources is horribly flawed.... it doesn't matter if indium was 100 times more abundant if the processing of it isn't fesible. because indium isn't in concerntrated deposits like silver, it's horribly hard to mine.

      I in fact DO understand that.

      if indium deposits really are out there you'd see a lot of announcments about projects to mine it - there aren't.

      That's a rather large assumption. Indium prices are very volatile. As recently as 2003 prices were at $80/kg. It's since gone up to $1000/kg, and back down to $500/kg. Mining companies are generally quite conservative. They aren't going to invest tons of money on something without a proven demand and prices. Sorry, but a 6 year rise in prices and then a fall just isn't a terribly good investment. You're very unlikely find what you're not looking for.

      --
      AccountKiller
    8. Re:Not enough indium in the world by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      But there is enough silicon in the world. It's the most abundant element after hydrogen+oxygen on the Earth's surface. Any solar technology based on exotic materials such as indium (or even Ga or Ge) will simply result in a market supply crunch, where indium's price will go through the roof to the point where it's no longer competitive with silicon technologies. You can probably predict a 2 to 15 year market on CIGS, with an automatic brake on profits, because if it really takes off as a business, you have to automatically stop, because the raw material price shooting for the stars will be instant. Indium has a volatile price reacting very hard to market demand. Moreover we need all the indium we got to make LCD's and flat screen tv's. Per square meter, that's a more valuable use of resources, especially when silicon solar roof tiles work too. Silicon is the shit, dawg. That's why the idea of intelligent design is so spooky. Cuz you can never be sure.

  12. Maybe they're rolling YOUR shingles... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But they're not rolling OURS!

  13. Saving energy? by QuoteMstr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Wouldn't it be easier to just paint the roof white so that the building reflects more heat and needs less cooling in the summer? (In the winter, insulation will keep the heat inside.)

    And wouldn't it also help to use lighter pavement to reduce the urban heat island effect?

    It just seems like photovoltaic shingles are pretty low on the net-payback list.

    1. Re:Saving energy? by syphax · · Score: 1

      Why either / or? I suspect we'll need both.

      In southern CA, you'll see plenty of warehouses with white roofs and PV mounted on top. With an air gap, the PV provides further shading.

      PV is relatively low on the net-payback list, but the experience curve marches on- the more we install now, the closer we get to grid-parity economics.

      --
      Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
    2. Re:Saving energy? by NoYob · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wouldn't it be easier to just paint the roof white so that the building reflects more heat and needs less cooling in the summer? (In the winter, insulation will keep the heat inside.)

      No. First of all, no house is energy efficient enough to do that. Much of the heat comes in and out through the windows. The materials used in construction are not good insulators and there are many ways the heat comes in and escapes out through the house: cracks and gaps, vent pipes, chimneys, air leaks around receptacles , opening and closing of doors, kitchen vents, etc....

      The best you can hope for in a home is to make it as energy efficient as you can.

      --
      It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    3. Re:Saving energy? by pavon · · Score: 1

      I don't know how it would compare to solar, but according to a report I read about here, painting roofs white was one of the least cost-effective forms of geoengineering options that they studies (see second page).

    4. Re:Saving energy? by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house

    5. Re:Saving energy? by afidel · · Score: 1

      Their cost/benefit analysis completely ignored the reduced cooling load needed. They also attribute 100% of the cost of the painting operation to reflectivity efforts but since most roofs need some maintenance anyways the marginal cost might be minimal. I know my company's HQ building that we just finished uses white rubber roofing material to both reduce cooling loads and offer a good long-life water barrier thus reducing maintenance costs vs a traditional tar roof.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    6. Re:Saving energy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house

      So if the owner of one of these houses was an outspoken supporter of the technology, would that make it a passive-aggressive house?

    7. Re:Saving energy? by ex_ottoyuhr · · Score: 1

      A more solid style of construction wouldn't hurt, either. I remember that a famous anthropology joke/thought-experiment in the '70s -- "Body Ritual Among the Nacirema" -- spoke of how most Nacerima buildings were wattle-and-daub, and that's hardly an exaggeration. If we built with brick or stone, we'd have better insulation right there; brick is the low-budget version of semi-subterranean building. (The high-budget version wouldn't hurt either, but it's surprisingly expensive to dig a hole in the ground.)

  14. Well that's silly by T+Murphy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Why would I want solar-powered shingles? My shingles never needed to be powered in the first place.

    --
    My webcomic
    1. Re:Well that's silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're the only one that's said "solar-powered". So, who are you talking to?

    2. Re:Well that's silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if they come with lights, they can make a good deal at around Christmas!

    3. Re:Well that's silly by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      fucking genius

  15. Re:Have you ever *seen* the guys who put on rooves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    rooves?

  16. Whose Shingles? by SammyIAm · · Score: 1

    Why are they rolling my solar shingles? And who is this "our" that I'm apparently sharing my solar shingles with? Won't they be more effective if they're flat? Maybe I need to go read the article to learn more...

  17. Wrong approach by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    These are nice, but I still think photovoltaic SIPs is a better way to go... so why isn't anybody making them?

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  18. copper indium gallium diselenide... by thestudio_bob · · Score: 2, Funny

    Copper indium gallium diselenide, that's like so yesterday. We all know that human hair is the future.

    Teenager Invents Cheap Solar Panel From Human Hair

    --
    The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains /.
    1. Re:copper indium gallium diselenide... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Well, that's what you get when French and Indians work on something together.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  19. DoW Chemicals? by ijakings · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Paint them red, they will charge faster.

  20. Im Retarded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone else not see the contradiction in this statement?

    "(CIGS), a photovoltaic material that typically is more efficient at turning sunlight into electricity than traditional polysilicon cells. Dow is using CIGS cells that operate at higher than 10 percent efficiency, below the efficiencies for the top polysilicon cells"

    Maybe I'm missing something but CIGS are not more efficient than Polysilicon. And YES CIGS are very toxic, but they can be recycled as the toxic chemicals inside are actually quite valuable.

  21. Re:Did you know? by Dishevel · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    People are solar powered.

    --
    Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  22. My brother by poptones · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yeah, he puts on "rooves."

    Now, let me ask YOU this: can YOUR whiny ass carry a pack of shingles up a ladder in 100 degree sun? Have you ever even been ON a roof?

    Contractors are responsible for the contracts, not the roofers. It's not the greasy, sunburnt guys working their asses off who steal your money - it's the well dressed fellow sitting in the truck watching them work who takes your money.

    That said, I don't think any of you have read TFA. These are thin film shingles. There are demo videos on youtube - you can see them press holes in the shingles, even drive nails through them and they still work just fine. These are not silicon and glass, they are thin film on some sort of flexible substrate. And it's about time.

    1. Re:My brother by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, he puts on "rooves."

      Now, let me ask YOU this: can YOUR whiny ass carry a pack of shingles up a ladder in 100 degree sun? Have you ever even been ON a roof?

      Try 40 rolls of 90 pound rolled roofing up a straight ladder in 108 degree Tucson heat installed in one day, asshole. By myself.

      Just STFU already. Not all of us geeks are pussies like you're insinuating.

    2. Re:My brother by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you were a professional roofer you would have done it drunk as a skunk. At starting time.

    3. Re:My brother by afidel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, I've stripped a double layer roof, replaced half the under-sheeting and put on a new roof including rubber matting to combat ice-dams in a long weekend. It's not really that hard. I did have my father as foreman who ran a midsized roofing company 25 years ago but most of the labor was just me and my brother. It's really quite simple if you have airguns =)

      Oh, and a funny story about corrupt roofers, my coworkers wife caught the crew doing the neighbors roof putting shingles on bare wood. Turns out the foreman was off drinking at the local strip joint instead of supervising the crew so they decided to slack off. The crew denied it up and down until my coworker provided video. The company ended up having to pay to strip and redo the whole thing even though it was only suspected that the back half was done wrong because who would trust them to have do anything right?

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    4. Re:My brother by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nanosolar gets my vote for cool material and manufacturing process.

      Thin film is physically pretty forgiving. But electricity is electricity. It's a lot less forgiving. Doesn't matter what material you're using for your PV.

      How you wire these things together (series and parallel), as well as shading effects has a huge effect. You don't do it correctly, you can have *no* power. Worse, you can have shorting, arcs, and fires. And you still need an inverter and power controller somewhere in there.

      It's cool in that you can mesh the things with a more traditional (although anachronistic) architectural style. But that was never even in the top 5 issues with home based PV.

    5. Re:My brother by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually i have when i was 16. it was illegal as hell for me to be working at that age but the owner of the company knew my grandma and hired me on for minimum wage. all they told me was pick up that hammer and drive a nail in it. the people working on your roof are not that well educated for these solar shingles.

    6. Re:My brother by phlack · · Score: 1
      Ever slightly offtopic, but as proof one needs to check up on the workers... We were having our bedroom done due to a mold problem. Walls torn to the cement block, the whole works.

      When they put the drywall up, there was a gap under a window. I looked in the gap (wondering why they didn't finish the job) and I noticed...there was no insulation! Further investigation revealed that was the only part that they "forgot" to insulate...however, they put the wrong insulation on the rest of the wall (ie a lower R rating than what we paid for & designated on the quote).

      Arguments ensued, but in the end they agreed to tear the drywall off, put in the proper insulation, then put in new drywall. All in the name of customer service.

      That, and the fact that the city permit office was getting very annoyed at them for other sloppy work...they didn't want any further complaints from us!

      Had they not left that gap there, I would have been none the wiser.

    7. Re:My brother by MrResistor · · Score: 1

      Now, let me ask YOU this: can YOUR whiny ass carry a pack of shingles up a ladder in 100 degree sun? Have you ever even been ON a roof?

      Yup. My dad's a contractor (the kind that actually works, not the well-dressed-sitting-in-the-nice-truck kind, don't trust those guys) and I worked in construction from age 12 to 24.

      In my experience, the critique of the construction trade found in this article is not unjust. As a rule, folks don't get into construction by being brainy, and roofers are generally the bottom of the barrel. Yes, there are exceptions, and I'm sure your brother is one of them.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
  23. Isn't the basic patent for this held by NASA? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    I remember when I gave it to them back during the Moon shots.

    That said, the work since then involves a number of later patents, some of which are held by the UW.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  24. Rolling our shingles? by michaelmalak · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    Rolling our shingles?

    Is that related to RickRolling?

    P.S. a present-day time traveler going back to 1988 might be surprised to read this New York Times article that extols:

    The hottest young English pop star of the moment is Rick Astley, a 21-year-old singer from a suburb of Manchester, whose debut single, ''Never Gonna Give You Up'' (RCA), has sold a million copies in Britain and reached No. 1 ranking in almost every other European country. The song is now rapidly climbing the United States pop charts and is the country's best-selling 12-inch single.

    The record's most striking quality is Mr. Astley's voice - a rich, throbbing baritone that suggests Tom Jones crossed with Luther Vandross. It is definitely not the kind of voice one expects to hear on a contemporary dance record. Since ''Never Gonna Give You Up,'' Mr. Astley has gone on to score two more major English hits, ''Whenever You Need Somebody'' (the title song of his debut album) and a revival of ''When I Fall in Love,'' which re-creates note for note the classic Gordon Jenkins arrangement for Nat (King) Cole's 1957 recording.

    Mr. Astley is the latest discovery of the successful producing and songwriting team of Stock-Aitken-Waterman, which also produces the group Bananarama. The team has popularized a streamlined homogenized pop-disco sound with an unruffled high-gloss surface that stands in marked contrast to the more angular, rhythmically inventive dance-funk of Prince and his disciples.

    ''I'm influenced by a lot of black American artists,'' Mr. Astley said in a recent telephone interview. ''Luther Vandross is one of my favorites, and I like James Ingram and Jeffrey Osborne.''

    At least for now, Mr. Astley is content to have his voice packaged by Stock-Aiken-Waterman.

    ''I like dance music,'' he said. ''I'm happy doing what I'm doing and want to get more deeply into it.'' Glass and Ginsberg

    Astley's videos were a big thing at the time, coming just two years into MTV's decline that was precipitated by Viacom's purchase of it and MTV still had some of its original appeal of showing a) videos that were b) popular.

  25. How will they work in northern climates? by barzok · · Score: 1

    5 months out of the year, there's a foot of snow on my roof. How will these hold up against ice dams? Has anyone factored in to the equation that they won't be generating a single watt of electricity for almost half the year?

    1. Re:How will they work in northern climates? by Clover_Kicker · · Score: 1

      Not everything works in all markets. Your local Home Depot probably won't carry this product. Hardware stores in Arizona probably don't stock snow blowers.

  26. Eagle roofing has had durable shingles for a while by Brigadier · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not sure why this is being posted as if it's a new product. Eagle Roofing based in California has been carrying a fairly successful product for some time now. Not only do they have a warrantied usable product but it also supports LEED cool roof requirements. see link below to check it out for yourself.

    http://www.eagleroofing.com/greenBld_eagleSolarRoof.htm

  27. Rolling WHOSE solar shingles? by fishexe · · Score: 1

    Dow Chemical Rolling Our Solar Shingles Next Year

    I hope I'm included in "our"...I want my solar shingles rolled!

    --
    "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
  28. solar thermal, simple and efficient by h00manist · · Score: 1

    solar themal energy is simple, low tech, and recovers much more energy. of course, it's heat, not electricity, that it generates. then again, the sun is mostly heat, already. students make them for science projects...

    --
    Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    1. Re:solar thermal, simple and efficient by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1
      Simple? Low tech? Have you ever actually seen one of these plants? Are you aware of the technical challenges in making cheap, reliable Stirling engines?

      If in your world steerable mirrors, Stirling generators and the electronics and computing needed to drive them is simple and low tech, then welcome to this planet, my friend, but I'm afraid you will find us very backward.

      --
      From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  29. world indium stocks by timmarhy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    buy shares in indium exploration companys then, because they don't have enough known resources to produce all these solar shingled roofs. sure you could use othe heavy metals, but they are rather nasty.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:world indium stocks by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      There was that Indian kid that made a solar panel out of human hair, maybe we could just use the hair to make our panels and not need that high cost indium. However, you will see alot more scalping going on from now on,....especially in places like Dominican republic where instead of taking your kidneys, well they take your scalp!

    2. Re:world indium stocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The main alternative to Indium Tin Oxide (ITO - the transparent top electrode) is Iron Tin Oxide (FTO). Lower sheet resistance, different energy levels + etc ==> difficulties getting the same efficiencies out of the solar cells, but it's certainly not toxic and is in abundant supply.

    3. Re:world indium stocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody explores for indium. It's a byproduct of zinc production. Mining companies analyze the ore for indium and wave high indium assays in front of investors, but most of the profit (and thus the reason for operating the mine) comes from the major products like zinc and lead. Same goes for gallium, germanium, and cadmium (cadmium telluride is another solar technology under investigation, and tellurium (byproduct of copper production) is even rarer than indium).

      In order to make a dent in the market share of fossil fuels for energy production, you need to put down a large area of solar cells, and a lot of these new inorganic technologies use rare materials that just can't be obtained in large amounts.

      Organic solar cells offer a way out, as they can be made with abundant elements like carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and sulfur. However, they're not yet economically competitive, and most research cells still use indium tin oxide as one of the electrodes (though alternative transparent conductors are under development).

  30. God almighty by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    Because YOU have snow, NOBODY can use solar panels.

    The world does NOT revolve around you, it revolves around ME!

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  31. 30 years? by symbolset · · Score: 1

    I think that in 30 years if far better solar technology isn't as cheap and readily available as cardboard, you'll have bigger things to worry about than how to recycle your roof shingles.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  32. Northern Climate Dwellers are Suckers Anyway. by hwyengr · · Score: 1

    They won't generate a single watt of electricity FOR YOU. Now, I live in Los Angeles. I cannot wait for these to hit the market.

    Sorry to hear about the weather.

    1. Re:Northern Climate Dwellers are Suckers Anyway. by hwyengr · · Score: 1

      Los Angeles is not a desert. The Mojave, desert. The rest of California, Mediterranean. But thanks for the well-wishes anyway.

  33. what I wonder... by buddyglass · · Score: 1

    Will home insurance be more expensive with these things installed, considering roof replacement is one of the most common claims?

  34. Article short on installation notes. by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 1

    Well, that's not what the article really states. It says "solar shingles can be integrated into rooftops with standard asphalt shingles" and doesn't give much more of a hint. As a guess I'd say that they might easily lay in place of a row of regular shingles or something like that, but the article says nothing leading one to believe that they can be nailed or easily wired.

    It's also seemingly not very exciting news as companies such as Uni-Solar have been doing similar stuff for several years now, although I do not have the specs so I can't say much about the efficiency.

    --
    http://www.rootstrikers.org/
  35. Re:Eagle roofing has had durable shingles for a wh by afidel · · Score: 1

    Sorry but I'm a lot more impressed by a 20 year warranty from DOW then even a 50 year warranty from a company that's only existed for 20 years (though I guess that's better than a new startup). The likelyhood of DOW being around to pay up on the warranty is a heck of a lot higher =)

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  36. The throbbing and burning! by Tablizer · · Score: 0, Troll

    First Dow makes breast implants that leak toxic chemicals, then they make solar panels that give you painful shingles. Somebody should stop these guys; they are medical mayhem!

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
  37. Yuk! by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 4, Funny

    assfault roads

    I do NOT want to drive around your neighborhood...

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    1. Re:Yuk! by smoker2 · · Score: 1

      Oh, it's alright once you're in the groove.

    2. Re:Yuk! by snspdaarf · · Score: 1

      Especially if it is a slip/strike fault.

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
    3. Re:Yuk! by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      assfault roads

      I do NOT want to drive around your neighborhood...

      Enough with the wisecracks

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  38. Re:Have you ever *seen* the guys who put on rooves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hoof > hooves

    What?

  39. Dow Chemical = Union Carbide = Bhopal disaster by alemaco · · Score: 1

    I'd just like to mention that Dow Chemical are the ones who owned Union Carbide. Y'know, the ones who killed around 25,000 people in a chemical plant accident in Bhopal, India. I wouldn't buy a pinhead from them.

    --
    No sig is good enough for me.
    1. Re:Dow Chemical = Union Carbide = Bhopal disaster by vlm · · Score: 1

      I'd just like to mention that Dow Chemical are the ones who owned Union Carbide.

      No, not "the ones who owned" at all, the very wikipedia article you link to explains how Dow did not buy UC until 15 years AFTER the UC disaster. Dow had absolutely nothing to do with the disaster. At all.

      Y'know, the ones who killed around 25,000 people in a chemical plant accident in Bhopal, India.

      ... 25 years ago, and oddly enough the wikipedia article claims 18,000. Also from a political viewpoint people never kill people, its always the inanimate object. Much like guns are the problem that must be controlled, not the people shooting them, don't hate the techs and execs, hate the isocyanate molecule.

      I wouldn't buy a pinhead from them.

      No problem, they exclusively sell to other manufacturers. Its been quite a long time, at least in the US, since the average citizen could walk up to a chemical facility and purchase a barrel of P2P or methylamine...

      Because it was 25 years ago, everyone at the company whom was involved, is long since either retired, dead, or has a new job. Feel free to shop there with no guilty conscious today.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  40. Re:Eagle roofing has had durable shingles for a wh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that a SHINGLE? No. But thanks for plugging your product, shill. Your greed disgusts me.

  41. Wait, what about... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    You also have that special paint you can apply to get more, so in combination with this, lay the shingles down, then spray a thin film of the solar paint, and then voila extra voltage output from solar shingles as they are now covered with a much higher yield paint then itself, plus if any of the paint comes off over the years, well the bottom IS solar panel to boot, so you technically could just leave it.

  42. So these shingles conduct electricity...? by SlideRuleGuy · · Score: 0

    ...and are connected into your home's electrical system? I hope you plan on putting up a few lightning rods at the same time. Just a thought.

  43. Snow country shingles. by ResidentSourcerer · · Score: 1

    Rethink snow country:

    In winter, the roof is covered with snow although if the shingles are slick enough it will act like my steel roof and there will be periodic 'shwoooshh .. WHUMP' when the snow gets to 2-3 inches.

    But winter is also when the sun is low on the horizon, days are short.

    Seems to me that it would make more sense to put up southerly solar siding in snow country.

    It also occurs to me: All solar cells I've seen have a fairly low albedo. Seems to me that it should be possible to make a combined unit that grabs the 10% it can to shove electrons around, and uses the rest to heat water.

    Like most tools with combined functions, it won't do either one as well as a dedicated tool, a unit that had only 8% electrical efficiency and 40% thermal efficiency may be a better win than two units at 10 adn 60%.

    If the goal is to make your power meter run backward then roof mount makes sense -- but in our climate the peak demand on the system is in winter.

    In some ways I hope that utility companies are forced to buy surplus power from anyone who makes it, but we also need some sanity as to when it is produced.

    eeStor: I want my 50 kilowatt hour battery!

    --
    Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
  44. Oh yeah? by MarkRose · · Score: 1

    Slutty Sally snagged solar shingles sexing Sol.

    --
    Be relentless!
  45. Greedy by Adustust · · Score: 1

    Well if it's all true and they can resist walking/nails guns/hail/high winds, then I might as well go the extra mile and tile my entire yard too. I won't have to mow anymore and save even more money!

  46. Re:Eagle roofing has had durable shingles for a wh by Luyseyal · · Score: 1

    Obviously you don't live where there's a lot of hail damage. The only reason we get long warranties in central Texas is because the insurance company uses that warranty as the basis for their depreciation of the roof. You will not have your roof for 20+ years. It will be replaced in that timeframe time and time again. However, with labor costs increasing yearly, it makes more sense to buy a 30 year shingle so that the depreciation won't outpace the replacement cost (zero out of pocket).

    -l

    --
    Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
  47. Solar Systems? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Dow Solar Solutions said it expects "an enthusiastic response" from roofing contractors for the new shingles, since they require no specialized skills or knowledge of solar systems to install.

    It's good to know we won't be having to send all of our roofers to remedial astrophysics classes.

  48. Right, but... by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    ... if you just want to use this for home heating/hot water, you don't need to worry about Stirling engines. Just run the heated water through pipes in your floor, or through a heat exchanger in your water heater, and you're good to go. Of course, if you live in California, such a system would be less useful - but in, say, the Midwest, you could substantially cut your heating bill.

  49. Union Carbide debt... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When is Dow going to pay its debt? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Carbide

    Read and weap.