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Ted Dziuba Says, "I Don't Code In My Free Time"
theodp writes "When he gets some free time away from his gigs at startup Milo and The Register, you won't catch Ted Dziuba doing any recreational programming. And he wouldn't want to work for a company that doesn't hire those who don't code in their spare time. 'You know what's more awesome than spending my Saturday afternoon learning Haskell by hacking away at a few Project Euler problems?' asks Dziuba. 'F***, ANYTHING.'"
Also:
Who cares?
When I worked as a spaghetti cook and eating spaghetti every night for three years, I didn't eat spaghetti for the next seven years.
When I worked as video game tester for six years, I very rarely played video games at home. After 40 to 80 hours a week testing games, I wanted to do something different with my time.
I been resisting offers to do technical writing since I write fiction in my off times. An ideal job is one that you can separate from your personal life.
But not coding in your free time also shows balance.
If you assume that X straight hours will lead to a greater risk of burnout, then reducing X by not coding when you don't have to could allow you to remain fresh for when you have to put your code on the line.
This is analogous to the proverb stating the difference between Europeans and Americans:
"Americans live to work, but Europeans work to live"
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I mean, you wouldn't hire a gardener who had a garden of his own - would you?
Schmuck.
OMG!!! Ponies!!!
"But not coding in your free time also shows balance"
Not really. Theres a huge difference between someone who spends maybe a few free hours a week doing his own thing learning some new techniques or programming some fun thing for himself or whatever, and the kind of basement dwelling hermit who really has no social skills or life outside the computer screen. The first person is the type you should hire, the 2nd is the type you should usually avoid.
Otherwise you might as well say that Ferrari should only hire race drivers who have no real interest in driving or airlines should only hire pilots who have no interest in flying outside of sitting in a 737 pilot seat monitoring systems for 3 hours.
I don't read Ted Dziuba's articles in my free time...or when I am working, actually.
AT&ROFLMAO
...someone who is interested in what they do as a day job will probably put in more effort that someone who's just a clock watching for-the-money type then frankly he's an idiot. This rule applies to ANY profession, not just programming
Brain surgery? Nothing like after a hard day in the operating theatre unwinding by taking out the kids pre-frontal cortex.
He has kids.
Those of you who don't have kids, won't get it.
I'm sure brain surgeons read medical journals and go to symposiums outside of their normal working hours.
So he would want to work for those who do hire people who don't code in their spare time? Or would want to work for those who don't hire people who do code in their spare time? Or what?
And Who's on first, right?
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Article summary: Smug douchebag knows it all, or gets to learn it all on the job.
Good for him. But for normal people who are, say, coding ASP or Visual Basic 6 at work-- if they would like to have some professional development, I hope they're doing some coding on the side to reinvent themselves. People that don't generally end up doing something like working on COBOL systems principally written in the 60's and 70's. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just saying: most people need to do some personal development off the the side of their job, or else they're stagnating. Plenty of people will disagree with me on this point, and have in the past on Slashdot. But generally speaking, those people have quit growing, and will of course deny it.
I think he's trying to show that you don't have to feel bad for not working in your off-hours, as many people seem to think they should, and also speaking out against companies that encourage and possibly mandate this odd behavior through their hiring practices.
Personally I try to avoid companies that care that much about what I do in MY time in general. If I'm not on the clock, its none of your fucking business. If I decide to learn a new language on my own, it is irrelevant until I start using it at work, in which case I expect my going above and beyond to be noticed. If it is required that I learn something new for work, I sure as hell had better be paid by the company for it one way or another (even if it just means doing the learning during company time).
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If you let your kids take over your entire free time then your not doing yourself or your kids any favours.
Perhaps, but never coding in your free time, not ever, and saying that you've never enjoyed writing code to explore or learn something: that shows a distinct lack of balance.
My tram ride to work takes 40 minutes. Honestly, what am I going to do with that time? I have a eeepc 701 loaded with ubuntu. On the tram I write code. It makes the commute bearable for me,
If you can't see what else you could be doing with that time other than coding the I would suggest that you need to step back from it and take a look at the bigger picture. But don't take this as meaning I am saying you shouldn't code - just that you should be aware of the tradeoffs you are making in order to code.
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This rule applies to ANY profession, not just programming.
I don't know, as a porn star, I'll do it for the money, but I really just don't like sex. Wouldn't want to do that in my spare time with hot chicks I don't even know.
(This post may have contained a few lies.)
Work is the boring stuff. You're fixing tedious bugs in tedious applications dealing with tedious real world problems like the cover page of the new TPS report. It's like a ski instructor that have to deal with all the horribly inexperienced people doing things all wrong or at least it's nothing like cruising along freely yourself. Obviously after a long day on the job I understand that this person would just want to go home, eat a pizza and do something completely different. But I'd be concerned about the coder that didn't have any pet projects, any interest in coding outside work like a ski instructor that never just goes skiing. No deadlines, no pressure, no dealing with poor specs, annoying customers or superiors. If you don't ever tinker with anything under those conditions I really don't see you giving it your best during work hours either. I don't mean that you need to have a long list of "public" off-hours coding experience that can be validated and put on your CV, just as a personality treat.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
You want to know how I learned Haskell? By doing project euler problems... DRUNK. See, this guy is all hoity-toity about going to the bar on weekends.... I bring the bar to ME, then I go out into the trenches, a little bit of beer, and solve those project euler problems after 5 beers minimum.
Nothing like a 12 pack and a functional, correctly solved project euler problem to separate the men from the boys.
He probably spends most of his spare time writing to the makers of Scrabble trying to persuade them that surnames should be allowed as legitimate words.
AT&ROFLMAO
>If you let your kids take over your entire free time then your not doing yourself or your kids any favours.
I'm guessing you're not a parent?
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
What this guy probably doesn't know, is that just about all coders that actually are any good at their job, love the endless unlimited possibilities their knowledge provides so much that they simply don't give a fuck about whether somebody is paying them to do it or not. They _HAVE_TO_CREATE_. They _HAVE_TO_SOLVE_PROBLEMS_. They simply cannot be stopped.
While there may be many not-so-good programmers that love to code in their spare time, I have actually _NEVER_ met any good programmer/engineer/developer/whatever that DOESN'T WANT to code in their spare time. I don't think they exist. However, I do think many exist that THINK they're a good programmer. Probably this Ted Dziuba guy is one of them. I'd never hire him.
0x or or snor perron?!
He's 26. He has ~3 years professional experience. What exactly qualifies as years of experience in your eyes, because from where I'm sitting he's a green horn. Not that I agree with the notion that you have to code in your offtime to be worth a crap.
Perhaps, but never coding in your free time, not ever, and saying that you've never enjoyed writing code to explore or learn something: that shows a distinct lack of balance.
... distinct lack of creativity and/or distinct lack of drive to explore
Dude thinks he's not boring, because he puts down what non-boring people like to do, and all put downs make you cooler, right? But, the real world doesn't work that way.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Otherwise you might as well say that Ferrari should only hire race drivers who have no real interest in driving or airlines should only hire pilots who have no interest in flying outside of sitting in a 737 pilot seat monitoring systems for 3 hours.
I don't suppose you've met very many 737 pilots have you? Flying a 737 or other large aircraft is like driving a bus in the sky. For most, at least of the 10 or so I know personally, flying may have once been a great passion but it has been replaced as something they do as a job.
As far as the article is concerned, I am a programmer, a damn good and distinguished one as a matter of fact, but my experience has taught me that in order to lead a healthy and productive life, there needs to be balance. Which for me, means leaving my work at work, and enjoying other interests in my off time. Don't get me wrong, I still have a great passion for programming, but like I said, I need balance. I would also wager that the majority of programmers who do a lot of coding in their spare time are fairly young in the craft. Once you get about 10-15 years experience of busting your ass day in and day out as a programmer, most will begin to find out that need other things in their life outside of programming.
Then again, I've met quite a few other programmers that really just had nothing better to do with their spare time.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
The point is that you can be pretty darn sure that the person is NOT more skilled or knowledgeable.
You don't know that. Doing something for ~8 hours a day can lower ones intensity to do it in their "free time".
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
You don't know that. Doing something for ~8 hours a day can lower ones intensity to do it in their "free time".
What I've found is that I`m more inclined to work on the opposite of what I do at work.
I worked at a place where the code base was a disaster .. there was no planning or design work.. no requirements management.. no semblance of order to anything (though we were working to fix that) .. and I found in my free time I enjoyed coding in a very designed and managed way.. kind of refreshing to work on nice tidy Java code.
Now I work at pretty much the opposite. Every line of code is reviewed and re-reviewed.. then the review process is reviewed and a binder of documentation is produced tying it to the requirements, testing, and phase of the moon. The design process of even a simple change can take months followed by (literally) years of testing. And when I get home.. I immerse myself in Perl and just "code the damn thing already".
On the original point.. it's been my experience that while there are some programmers who are very good at their job despite treating it like a 9 to 5 .. the vast majority of good coders I know at least dabble with stuff at home. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask what (if any) projects a person works on at home. I wouldn't use it as a sole judge of whether they are a good candidate.. but it would certainly factor into things.
As for what a person does (non programming) in their off time.. again.. I think perfectly reasonable. Also on the table in my opinion are what their favourite classes in high school were, what books/movies that like, what music, what they do with their friends on a Friday. When you hire someone into a team.. you arn't just hiring an automaton that is capable of performing a set list of tasks. I've met brilliant programmers whom I'd pass over for a high school kid.. because despite being good at their job.. they would have been a negative person to have around and would make work hell (yes.. having a fun and happy work environment is important..)
168 comments in, probably no one is going to read this. Still, I'll say it anyway.
I wouldn't hire someone who had no interest what-so-ever programming in their spare time. That said, I also wouldn't hire someone that does nothing else but program in their spare time. I'm not looking for someone that can solve a general problem (what do I do when I'm not working?) in a specific way. I want a hint that the person I'm talking with during an interview has other interests. I don't want to know what they are. That leads to information I'm not supposed to know during an interview. I just want them to give me an assurance that they are a well-rounded person with other pursuits.
Myself? Of course I program in my spare time. I also collect books, smoke and collect tobacco pipes, play RPGs (the pen and paper kind) with my friends, play computer games, cook... the list of things I do in my spare time is endless. That's what I'm looking for, because someone who doesn't lack for things to do in their spare time most liely comes with several approaches to solving new problems and that's the type of person I'm looking to hire.
Please note that I did say "professional experience". This was not by accident or to make my post appear longer.
This guy sounds similar to myself. If the job is a 9-5 coding, I don't want to spend my free time coding. If my 9-5 is working on cars, I don't want to spend my free time working on cars. If my 9-5 is being a doctor, I don't want to spend my free time working in the clinic.
It comes to preferences. My job is a job. Not a career. Not a stepping stone. Not a direction to a greater path in my field. Once I've reached a particular spot and I'm happy and/or comfortable with it - that's it. But when all is said and done and I come home for the day, I have more important things to worry about like my family, my hobbies and/or what other fun things I want to do. Not sitting on my arse in front of a computer. Not unless I need to, and those needs are defined by staying relevant in my field, like all fields. Medical, programming, mechanic etc. All else is purely extra and it sounds like this guy doesn't want that extra to be on the computer like a hobby. Can't fault him for that.
Those of you who don't have kids, won't get it.
I know, because it's not like we don't have any siblings with kids or friends with kids or were kids ourselves. We know nothing about kids, or parenting, or... what is it you call it? Family?
Please never, ever, ever say this. It is so unbelievably insulting. I actually can think of a couple childless people I know who seemed to be clueless about the lifestyle of coworkers with kids, but I can count them on one hand.
No, I don't know personally what it's like to be responsible for someone's physical and emotional well-being, but I've seen it done, and it looks pretty hard. I don't whine about coworkers with kids until it seems like they use it as a blanket excuse for why they can't do anything even when every other parent is fine with it. You know exactly what I'm talking about (unless you're the one who is always dropping the ball "because of the kids"). It's a mean trick to play on someone, to make them feel like they are directly harming the development of a little child by asking that someone pull their weight.
Then there's the other side. My wife and I can't have kids. That's okay with us; we've gotten over being depressed about it, and have just decided to be active with our families in other ways in the hopes that maybe a niece or nephew might visit us in the nursing home, or at least pick up our ashes. But try selling that to a boss if you don't have kids. People without kids still have families and still want to be connected to them, but unless those family members fell out of your own crotch, they don't really count. It's not like I'm saying "I can't make it to that meeting; my dad has the sniffles." But "Any way I can get out of that unscheduled meeting you threw right in the middle of my family reunion weekend?"
Ugh, why am I even bothering?
Those of you who have kids won't get it. ;-)
The managers you work for, to keep their jobs and get raises, are literally vultures these days. If you come up with something really neat, and the bosses think it might somehow fit into what the company might want, to keep YOUR job, you turn it over to them. Unpaid hours of development = the company making profit just so you can keep your job?
The main reason back in the old days that the unions didn't get so much as a foothold into the tech culture is because tech companies were smart enough to treat their talent really, really well. (If you weren't, well, sorry about your misfortune, but you were in the minority.) You got paid solid pay much higher than the area average, you got full benefits, you had a degree of job security, and you could goof off from time to time and no one held it against you. Over the last 5 years, I've noticed the total number of months I've actually worked for pay drop to literally 6 months a year. I've had "jobs" where I discovered I was competing against an offshore team for consulting teams (and obviously losing because I was unwilling to work for 10 bucks an hour). Benefits? Haven't had even remotely decent coverage for many years. And the last few jobs I've worked, I was (along with my team) highly pressured to "innovate" on my own time in order to keep my job. In order to keep my contract position with no benefits, I was expected to "take ownership" of things on my own time.
An auto shop is not going to threaten to fire their contract employees if they don't work overtime for free. You won't see that in most industries. But because a lot of developers are basically pussies and won't stand up, get together, and fight back, companies are going to do this more and more because they can get away with stealing the fruits of labor YOU create on YOUR OWN time. No, developers are more willing to lay down, call themselves libertarians, rag on the unions, bitch and moan about having no free hours in their days, cry when they get laid off, and stay in that cycle until they drop dead.
I'm just surprised that this kid is burned out already. Usually takes several more years of being used like a whore by managers who contribute nothing more than their ability to lie and cover their own asses. He must be REALLY smart.
Hi Linus,
I'm having problems with sound on my laptop in Ubuntu. Is this something you can fix in the kernel or is it a problem with the distro? Please help.
Best Regards, AC
That's fine that after 10-15 years your craft is no longer your highest interest or priority
I guess you missed this part of my post:
Don't get me wrong, I still have a great passion for programming
You can call it balance, call it experience, and it probably is, but however you parse it, if your productive output is less than that of someone else, you can't fault an employer for choosing someone else, especially someone else at half your salary.
Who said anything about productive output. You think a coder is more productive if he also programs in his spare time. First, my productive output is as good or better than my other co-workers. (I'm lucky to work with some really great programmers) Second, I would argue that someone who has many outside coding projects may actually be less productive.
The truth is I have a few outside projects every now and again, but for the most part, I intentionally try to stay away from them so that other things can come into my life. If you are one of those people that spends all of his free time coding, I urge you, take a break. You don't have to do any specific thing, just leave some time open for life to happen.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
It's not a grammatically incorrect sentence. It's just a bit confusing, albeit technically precise. Better would probably have been something like "and he wouldn't want to work for a company that only hires those who like to code in their spare time."
The point is that you can be pretty darn sure that the person is NOT more skilled or knowledgeable.
Though imperfect, desire to hack on personal projects is a damn good lameness filter.
Every top architect I worked around at NeXT and Apple had families and never programmed outside of work. They were normal.
For the benefit of the childless people:
After I put in my time at work, which is never just 40 hours a week, I come home and have about 2 hours to spend with my young daughter before she goes to bed. Those two hours includes dinner and bath time. If I don't spend that time with her, then her mother comes after me. After she's in bed, I'm at the very end of my day. My brain is mush. I have another 2 hours before I need to sleep. Even if I were capable of programming more, I have zero interest in actually doing so. That is my time to watch tv, veg out, recharge, and catch up with my wife.
Weekends are family time. Either there's a family birthday, or one of my daughter's friends birthdays, or we're going out of town, or there's something else my wife scheduled, or whatever. Programming for fun is about the last thing on my mind. Why? I've already gotten my programming fix from working during the week. Further, my family takes up what little free time I possess. Finally, even if I were able to find the time to sit and code, there is no quiet space in my house where I would be uninterrupted for any length of time by either my daughter or my wife.
If you think I should be spending all my free time coding after putting in more than 40 hours of coding at work, then you have no understanding of work-life balance. People can not live a life of constant work or attention to a single task. You do that and you're all but asking to burn out. Me? I'd like to still be in this industry in 20 years, thank you very much. I don't want to be diabetic at 35 from a complete lack of physical inactivity. I don't want to be single at 40 from ignoring my wife. I don't want a heart attack at 45 from all the stress of work and no free time. I'm in this for a long-haul.
And if you want to be in this industry 20 years from now, I suggest you chill out, even if just a little.
It comes to preferences. My job is a job. Not a career. Not a stepping stone. Not a direction to a greater path in my field. Once I've reached a particular spot and I'm happy and/or comfortable with it - that's it.
Sure, that's fine. No one's saying it isn't. It's your choice that your work doesn't overlap with your hobbies.
But for some people, they do overlap. While it might be limiting to say, "I won't hire someone who doesn't code in their spare time," it does act as a reasonable filter. I think it's safe to assume that the set of people who do code in their spare time has very few bad programmers in it. The set of people who don't code in their spare time, however, likely has a much larger proportion of bad programmers. (You could also say that the average quality in the codes-for-fun group is likely higher.)
If you have a limited amount of time and energy to deal with hiring, and your applicant pool is large enough, using a "must code for fun" filter saves you some effort by removing a large population of bad (or even just average, probably) programmers. Does that also remove some great programmers from consideration too? Almost certainly... but it's a trade off. It's a filter with a decent number of false positives, but likely very few false negatives.
Xfce: Lighter than some, heavier than others. Just right.