Secret ACTA Treaty May Sport "Internet Enforcement" Procedures After All

Andorin writes "Ars Technica writes about the recent work on the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, and reveals that while the public does not have access to the text of the agreement, a handful of lawyers representing Big Content and numerous companies and organizations do. 'Turns out that... ACTA will include a section on Internet "enforcement procedures" after all. And how many people have had input on these procedures? Forty-two. ... Knowledge Ecology International (KEI) found out in September that the US Trade Representative's office had actually been secretly canvassing opinions on the Internet section of the agreement from 42 people, all of whom had signed a nondisclosure agreement before being shown the ACTA draft text.'"

Comments

Senate likely to pass treaty

[random coward]

They seem to like to vote on things that no-one has read.

Freedom of Information Act

[Akido37]

I'm most curious as to why nobody's yet sued to see a copy of the draft treaty. It seems that "national security" is a bit of a stretch.

So much for transparency

[Anonymous Coward]

So much for having a truly transparent administration. This president operates the same as all the others.

Re:So much for transparency

[jhfry]

This has nothing to due with the current administration. The ACTA was formed in 2007 and is an international organization. Sure the administration could try and force them to open up... but who knows how high on their list this issue is.

People seem to forget that Obama hasn't even been if office for a year yet. Very few presidents accomplishments are visible in their fist TERM let alone their first year.

If you work for the government, or even a large corporation, having the president say "We will do this" results in several months of people writing and implementing policies, changing the way things have been done, etc. Then you need to break the habits of folks who have been doing it differently for years. Finally you need to fix everything that no one thought of. I could be several years before Obama's transparency promise truely begins to be noticeable... though I have been reading of a lot of things that show of a shift in that direction since he came into office so the trend is in the right direction.

Re:So much for transparency

[aicrules]

Posting all versions of the Healthcare bill currently under consideration in a place where the public can review would be a start. His transparency promise will go the way of every other nebulous fuzzy warm feeling promise that gets made. "Read my lips! No new taxes!"

Re:So much for transparency

[salesgeek]

You missed the memo. This bill is perfectly transparent. It's so clear no one can see it. Just like a living room window that birds fly into.

Re:So much for transparency

[cmiller173]

ACTA is not an organization, it is the name of a (currently proposed) treaty being negotiated by Office of the United States Trade Representative which is part of the US State Department (which is part of the Executive Office of the President of the United States). Even though the negotiations started before the current administration, they are being carried on by THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION! Since this is a part of the US government that is under the purview of the president he could simply by executive order make this public. So far he has not. That a trade agreement could be kept secret as a mater of national security is utterly spurious.

EFF asking people to ask for Senate Hearings

[TheCarp]

It would be nice to see this linked from the article but.... the EFF has a page up to send your reps a request to call senate hearings on this issue:

https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=383

I have been forwarding the link to everyone that I know, I recommend that everyone else who cares about transparency in the legal process to do the same.

-Steve

Re:EFF asking people to ask for Senate Hearings

[mastahYee]

It would be nice to see this linked from the article but.... the EFF has a page up to send your reps a request to call senate hearings on this issue:

https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=383

I have been forwarding the link to everyone that I know, I recommend that everyone else who cares about transparency in the legal process to do the same.

-Steve

This is super important, thanks for posting. I have also begun sending it to everyone I know. Can we get this as an update to the main article, please?

have you seen my representative government lately?

[KidCeltic]

I love my country, I hate my government (because it is no longer "my" government). We need a change. We need to break the stranglehold the Republican and Democratic parties have on the machinery of government. We need the populous to wake up and act...vote. Vote for repealing rights that the federal government has usurped from the state governments. We need to limit federal legislation of states and depend upon each state to make the decisions that affect the people that they know better than the federal government (you know, they way our founders intended it to be). I'm going to stop here and get ready for the onslaught of all of the knee-jerk, anti-American flames aimed squarely at me.

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[TheCarp]

Speaking of....

I CLEARLY remember an emergency session being called right after they went into recess a few years back (4-8 years ago I believe) because they passed a budget that contained a provision that removed privacy protections from tax return information.... and of course.... nobody read the bill.

Of course, as much as many hate the idea, it could be REALLY BAD for political figures, big businessmen etc, so they held an emergency summer session, and fixed it.

Anyway, I clearly remember it.... maybe my brain is broken in a way that makes it not interface seamlessly with google, but I can't find a single article or reference to this incident, which is too bad, because it is a link that could be really useful in say.... discussions like this.

Anyone remember this? Anyone have a link?

-Steve

How has noone leaked this yet?

[Hadlock]

$100 to the first person to post the fully draft here or on wikileaks. Seriously we can leak SpiderMan movies, crack supposedly uncrackable digital encryption schemes and share giant files, but nobody is willing to post perhaps 60kb of text? IANAL but, Considering the type of legislation, leaking this sort of thing isn't likely to follow with litigation against the mole.

Re:How has noone leaked this yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is an older (2007) version available on Wikileaks.

The reason that the newest draft hasn't been leaked is that the only people who have access to it are politicians and greedy corporate lobbyists, and neither group particularly likes freedom of information. If they were the only ones allowed to watch the Spiderman movies then we wouldn't be able to download those either.

Re:The number is... 42?

[SomeJoel]

If they were drafting an agreement seeking to protect whiny sensationalist articles on the Internet I'm sure Slashdot would be given advanced versions of the draft.

If you think this, you are wrong.

No Mainstream Media Coverage

[BabyDuckHat]

The lack of mainstream media coverage of this issue is telling. They're not afraid to pass up a story if it's in their best interest to do so. I propose we force them to report on ACTA by kidnapping Kanye West, stripping him naked, tattooing "SETEC Astronomy" on his forehead, and launching him in a homemade balloon purchased by John Gosslin with the money he stole from Kate.

Re:No Mainstream Media Coverage

[tlhIngan]

The major news corporations report the news that they think will get them viewers, readers or listeners. The only possible conclusion from this is that not enough people in the US are interested in that kind of news.

It hit the newspapers here a long time ago - they called it "Is your iPod illegal?"

That is what's needed to get the public interested - tell them how ACTA will hurt them.

Since there's been nothing but bad news coming out of the way, how about full page ads saying stuff like:

"Jailed for copying their CD to their iPod"
"Jailed for recording last's night TV"
"Jailed for singing in the shower"
"Jailed for using Windows XP" (... because it lacks the Copyright Protections in Vista/7)
"Jailed for quoting a book" (... magazine article, newspaper article, movie, TV show, etc. Extend with "writing a bad review of" too).
"Flying with electronics? Please arrive 6 hours prior to departure for electronics (including iPods, cameras, laptops) screening"
"Purchased a new TV? Guess what? You can't use it anymore!"
"Own a TV bigger than 42 inches? It's too big - you'll need a performance permit to use it"
"Friends over for the Superbowl? Hope they're not staying to watch - it's illegal"

A bit of hyperbole, yes, but given it's ACTA we're talking about, there's a good chance it's true. People are calling for no format shifting and no timeshifting without payment. And while the border patrols say they won't scrutinize iPods and the like, it's an ever-present threat.

A simple marketing campaign directed at stuff people do every day without a second thought. Don't bother with crap like downloading music or anything, just stick with stuff that's perfectly legal today and not contentious. Hell, if you want to add some fun FUD, add stuff like "Copyright taxes for iPods, blank media, hard drives, computers, internet service".

And yes, I mention iPods specifically, because the general public knows iPods. They don't know MP3 player.

*sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

You know the world's in trouble when the Business Software Alliance is at the head of a list of representatives privy to secret international treaties about the Internet that the US is going to sign off on.

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Isn't anyone bothered by government asking commentators to "sign a non-disclosure agreement" about a proposed law disturbing?

This makes republishing a law that's "copyrighted" look like a free and open society.

Back-room, off-the-record, tit-for-tat haggling over laws' formation is bad enough as it is. The only possible reasons for this NDA are precisely the reason it should be blasted out over public loudspeakers.

How can this be secret?

[raddan]

I am no government scholar, but I was under the distinct impression that legislation was required to be made public. Am I wrong about this? Or is it the fact that ACTA is a 'treaty' make it substantially different? People signing NDAs to participate in the legislative process is not a good thing. Whose eyes are they shielding this from? Us?

Re:How can this be secret?

[langelgjm]

Or is it the fact that ACTA is a 'treaty' make it substantially different?

Yes. It wouldn't become law until ratified by the Senate, and they are still in the stages of negotiating the draft text. Right now it's just a piece of paper, which apparently no one is allowed to see, despite FOIAs that have been filed, because both administrations have argued it's a matter of "national security." That's BS of course; the real reason is probably a combination of 1) public interest groups wouldn't like what was in the draft and 2) parties involved in the negotiation feel that opening up a draft text will impede honest negotiations.

Both of those are probably true, however I think that fewer people would be up in arms of the secrecy of the draft text if some public interest groups were among the stakeholders allowed to see it. As it stands now, the groups being allowed to see it are not at all representative.

Re:How can this be secret?

[MightyMartian]

It's actually a fairly old tradition that treaties are negotiated in secret. In most democracies, that's not supposed to be the point at which things are scrutinized. It's when you bring the treaty back that whatever branch of government responsible for ratifying the treaty does so and then the legislative branch passes laws to enact the treaty.

That's why I'm not exactly losing sleep yet. Before most countries sign on to it, there's going to have to be a debate. Even in the UK, where the Queen technically is the ratifier, an Act of Parliament is required, and her ratification is going to be based on the advice of Her Ministers. In the US, the Senate does the ratification, so the terms are going to be heard anyways.

Re:How can this be secret?

[selven]

So by the time the democracy part actually happens the negotiations are finalized and it's just a "take it or leave it" situation? I say screw that tradition and give us openness and accountability.

Re:How can this be secret?

[shentino]

Yes...after we've already committed ourselves by making a binding international agreement to enforce it.

Once it's time to vote on it we will have little choice as a nation to reject it without some international repercussions.

Re:The number is... 42?

[spun]

Okay, but I have a serious point too: The "Big Content" and other companies are the ones that have a stake in anti-counterfeiting legislation, of course they are going to have primary input. If they were drafting an agreement seeking to protect whiny sensationalist articles on the Internet I'm sure Slashdot would be given advanced versions of the draft.

What. The. FUCK?! I'm a citizen of a country covered by this treaty, I have a stake in this treaty. "Companies" are just groups of citizens, they are not actually citizens. Companies don't have a stake in this, it is the individuals who have a stake in those companies that do, as this will affect their profits. Does their right to profit trump my rights as a citizen? I think not, but you've got the unmitigated gall to call this a whiny sensationalist article and imply that we, the citizens, don't have a right to complain or even see this bill. What patronizing garbage. Companies shouldn't have rights, and they certainly shouldn't trump the rights of citizens. Companies should not get to dictate treaties to the rest of us. They shouldn't get preferential treatment, and you shouldn't go around kissing the ass of Big Content and telling the rest of us we need to bend over and take what's coming to us, you anti-democratic toady.

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[ShieldW0lf]

Isn't anyone bothered by government asking commentators to "sign a non-disclosure agreement" about a proposed law disturbing?

Anyone else suspect that it won't be much longer before we just ignore the dictates that come from central authority utterly? I'm looking forward to it, personally...

Don't forget about Cybersecurity Act of 2009, too

[FiloEleven]

That bill would allow the President to shut down the private internet in the event of an emergency--a phrase so broad as to allow any excuse he chooses--along with unrestricted access to data by the Secretary of Commerce under regular conditions. The EFF has an informative overview of the legislation. It's currently in a committee, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored. Thankfully, the EFF has done a good job of keeping an eye on things like this.

we need a spy

[cats-paw]

to post something to wikileaks

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[spun]

I'm going to stop here and get ready for the onslaught of all of the knee-jerk, anti-American flames aimed squarely at me.

So what you are saying is that any criticism of your ideas must not be well thought out, and must be anti-American. Wow.

And? Am I the only one who thinks

[jdgeorge]

They have been getting input from a good, broad selection of people? The corporate interests listed have legitimate interests, whether we like them or not. Others, such as the three representatives from Public Knowledge, are EXACTLY who I would want representing various other interests.

Re:The number is... 42?

[dissy]

Okay, but I have a serious point too: The "Big Content" and other companies are the ones that have a stake in anti-counterfeiting legislation, of course they are going to have primary input.

Hate to break it to you, but not a single "Big Content" company would even exist in the first place without citizens of a country.

That places us citizens at the top of the food chain when it comes to what is best for us.

So no, it's not 'of course' they get primary input. They get LAST input.
That is why the outrage.

Remember, you might be a big media shill, but there are still more of us than you.

Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, the blame for this thing goes to everyone. You, me, Big-Content, our elected* Representatives, our 'bought' representatives... It spans across industries, from tech giants like Microsoft, and Google Inc. , to supermarket chains and hobby shops.

Ultimately, this breaks down to ideological differences on the future of information, and 'Copyrighted Content' (not mutually exclusive by any degree), and whether Capitalism, or Corporatism if you prefer, should remain superior to the rights of the public, and private citizen.

I could argue on end about how this really started when Corporations were given the same, and possibly more, legal rights than the individual citizen, but dissecting the historical evolution of this actually does a disservice, and distracts from the present.

The simple fact is, the rights of the individual citizen, be it public or private, if left up to the wills of the legal arm of the Corporate puppeteer, will be made subservient in every sector of society for the foreseeable future. Yes to a degree, that is the case now, but in the near future, any attempts to route, subvert, or even object the will of those who we so gladly pay of incomes to, will bring forth the hammer of the gavel to such degrees, that even infants won't escape innocence.

You've been warned before, and I warn you now. YOUR future is slipping away! Do you even recognize that?

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't anyone bothered by government asking commentators to "sign a non-disclosure agreement" about a proposed law disturbing?

No, and anyone who is could only be motivated by racism.

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[TheCarp]

Hmmm Northeast leaves.... and CA leaves (probably taking the rest of the west coast with it).... I have to imagine that the midwest/south would then split.

For some reason this leaves me with the image of Texas becoming the Lone Star State again and being overwhelmed by a rush of Mexicans looking to take their land back.... and that makes me giggle and want to see this even more!

-Steve

What are they hiding?!

[KwKSilver]

If ACTA has nothing to hide, why are they hiding. All this secrecy suggests that it is loaded with anti-freedom, corrupt, vile and unconstitutional provisions. What does this pile of ... "stuff" ... do repeal the Bill of Rights and the Magna Carta (insert your nation's equivalent here)? Anyone who values whatever freedom they have should be raising a stink.

Re:What are they hiding?!

[geekoid]

I wold imagine they want to keep the lid on the techniques they are looking at for anti-counterfeiting.

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[Shakrai]

And no federal government yet has represented California's interests. Hell we don't even get 80 cents on the dollar back in federal tax money, and what we do get is so wrapped in pork and idiotic regulations it costs almost as much as we get to use.

I hope you realize that's your own damn fault for voting for politicians that seek to expand Government.

It's not broad enough

[langelgjm]

Yes, the corporations listed have legitimate interests. Yes, it's good that there are three PK people and one person from the Center for Democracy and Technology.

However, four people total from PK and CDT are not enough to constitute adequate representation in the public interest. The reason KEI is making such a fuss about this is because there is a big concern in the access-to-medicines community that any ACTA treaty will include provisions making it easier for customs authorities to seize pharmaceuticals that are allegedly "counterfeit". There's a very active effort to confuse the distinction between counterfeit and generic medicine, and KEI and others are worried that ACTA will make it easier for shipments of generic medicines to be seized as they make their way between countries. This has already happened several times this year, and in no case that I am aware of have the accusations been substantiated - it's always turned out that the medicines are legitimate generics.

People from PK and CDT have no history of working on access to medicine or public health issues. None of the groups on that list seem to have any relation to public health issues, yet ACTA could have a very real effect on public health.

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[geekoid]

incorrect:
"we the people are no longer the boss"
If that was true, they wouldn't need to hide it.

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[Nadaka]

Why settle for the lesser evil?

Vote Cthulhu! F'tang R'ley!

Re:Don't forget about Cybersecurity Act of 2009, t

[geekoid]

Guess what?

The president has the authority to shut down every think else in the event of an emergence.
How many times ahs the president shut down a freeway? Airline traffic? phones?

Not very often. It would be political suicide to shut down anything where there isn't a clear public emergency that impacts specifically whatever he is shutting down.

Yes, t should be open. Lets not get paranoid.

Single point of failure

[camperdave]

...I can't find a single article or reference to this incident, which is too bad, because it is a link that could be really useful...

Wipe it from Google, wipe it from history.

Re:Single point of failure

[I'm not really here]

This was ripped off from a Star Trek TNG episode "Remember Me" in which Beverly ends up in some sort of warp bubble universe where people keep disappearing and the universe shrinks but as the universe shrinks, no one remembers that there were ever more than how ever many people there currently are on the ship. Even when it ends up just Beverly and the Captian... he says "The computer handles everything. We've never had more than just a captain and a doctor."

Interesting episode, but obviously the scifi genre is running out of new ideas (and ST TNG probably ripped it from somewhere else, no doubt).

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[spun]

Really. Show me on single 'love it or leave it' comment directed at the state's rights types. It seems to me that we had eight years of the right wing claiming any dissent was unpatriotic, and we lefties should 'love it or leave it.' But now that the left is in power, they are whining that we are doing it to them. Even if we were, which we aren't, turnabout is fair play.

Funny thing, when the left criticizes the government, we are unpatriotic commies bent on destroying America. However, when the right criticizes the government, they are being patriotic. Our criticisms are 'knee jerk' while theirs are calm and rational. Do you not see the utter hypocrisy?

Re:The number is... 42?

[Znork]

Of course, from an economic view, IP legislation is very similar to taxation, except the tax rates on the specific monopoly products are set by private interests. (And with 5-20% efficiency, it's also a whole lot less efficient than most government run tax-financed programs).

IP isn't free. The wider it's applied and the harder it's enforced the more it costs the economy and IP is one of the reasons the west has difficulty competing with low-cost countries.

Just calling a taxation form 'property' doesn't make it so. So where's the representatives for those who will see their taxation burden increased even more?

Re:I am definitely not a lawyer...

[MightyMartian]

...but could someone please explain to me how, apart from any concern over contempt of democracy, we are supposed in the future to abide by laws we don't even have the right to read?

Because it isn't a law yet. You do understand how treaties work, right? Treaties are negotiated, then, if agreed upon, ratified by the signatory nations, and then after that's all done, legislation is passed in each country that has ratified the agreement which gives the treaty the force of law. In fact, even after agreement has been met, treaties can be rejected. That's what happened to Woodrow Wilson in 1919 when he went back to the Senate with the League of Nations, and they sent him packing.

Don't they teach any kind of civics courses in high school anymore?

Re:I for one...

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

Couple of years?

It's been going on for centuries. Ever hear of the East India Trading Company?

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[amplt1337]

And no federal government yet has represented California's interests. Hell we don't even get 80 cents on the dollar back in federal tax money, and what we do get is so wrapped in pork and idiotic regulations it costs almost as much as we get to use.

I hope you realize that's your own damn fault for voting for politicians that seek to expand Government.

I hope you realize that this is completely irrelevant to the parent's point.
"My government is not representative" != "My government is TOO BIG!"

Re:Don't forget about Cybersecurity Act of 2009, t

[selven]

Kidnapping two people is enough where I come from

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[Shakrai]

How is it irrelevant? He's complaining about the fact that his state is paying out more in taxes than it takes in. Why do you suppose that is?

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[Red Flayer]

Well, I can only suggest searching Thomas for it. Good luck, it's not easy to search by date. If you don't know which Congress passed it, you'll need to check several Congresses...

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[spun]

now that the left is in power

...left? In America?

Well, you see, here in America we have three right wings. And as we all know, three rights make a left.

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[Late Adopter]

It's not a proposed law yet. It's a pile of paper that may someday become a proposed law. When it becomes a proposed law it'll be up there on Thomas with everything else. Meanwhile it's just a thought, an intermediate position in international negotiations, and negotiating requires a party to be mum about its desires and willingness to compromise until it decides it's in its interest to reveal them.

Maybe that's not how *governments* should negotiate (at least not ours), and if I heard a strong enough argument I might even agree with that position. But it's not a sign of sinister intent. It's the status quo for treaties.

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[Anonymous Coward]

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[Applekid]

It's not a proposed law yet. It's a pile of paper that may someday become a proposed law. When it becomes a proposed law it'll be up there on Thomas with everything else.

With all the crying about the health care reform bill text, they want to minimize the text of the law's exposure to the public. It'll be proposed and voted on a late night Friday, whisked quickly through the other chamber, rubber stamped through the Prez, and, poof, instant gestapo, paid for by the taxpayers whose necks they'll have their knees against.

Radicalize (v., trans.)

[Bob9113]

ACTA will include a section on Internet "enforcement procedures" after all.

Dear Imperial Overlords,

Are you familiar with the term "radicalize"?

Are you aware that the script kiddies of the world are extremely unskilled?

Do you really think you control, or can control, the Internet?

You are guests in our world. Try reading some cypherpunk. Me, I'm interested in other things, but keep this up, and an increasing number in our community will begin to get defensive and protect our community from you interlopers.

Just the facts, not trying to be a dick or anything.

Have a good day,

Bob

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[clem.dickey]

Isn't anyone bothered by government asking commentators to "sign a non-disclosure agreement" about a proposed law disturbing?

How does the government prosecute someone who broke the law? Make the jury sign NDAs? Or maybe use a military court?

Re:have you seen my representative government late

[tsotha]

And no federal government yet has represented California's interests. Hell we don't even get 80 cents on the dollar back in federal tax money, and what we do get is so wrapped in pork and idiotic regulations it costs almost as much as we get to use. Hell without the drain of the federal government California would be a profitable state (and yes, that includes if we hired our own army)

Probably not. I see people throwing around numbers like that, but like every other kind of accounting the number you end up with depends on what you include in your analysis. Some things they tend to forget about:

• Water. California receives, at essentially no cost, a hell of a lot of water from the Colorado river. If we actually had to pay for that water we'd be worse off than we are now. Assuming, of course, it was actually available for purchase. You think low flow toilets are bad? Imagine a California in a permanent state of drought and with virtually no agriculture.
• The bank bailout. We've got a pretty big financial center in San Francisco, and a lot of other states ended up ponying up part of that $700B bank bailout that isn't going to help them. Not directly, anyway. I'm sure New York ended up with the lion's share of that money, but I'll bet California was #2.
• Intellectual property. The US is constantly trading other things away in international agreements in order to make sure Hollywood gets its cut when movies are watched around the world. If Cali was off on its own, how much leverage do you think the state would have, and how much incentive would the other 49 states have to browbeat and cajole other countries into respecting film rights?
• Real Estate. 50% of the non-performing real estate loans are in California. Because of FHA and Fanny Mae, the federal taxpayer is going to wind up writing off untold billions as a result.
• Transportation. The biggest discrepancy between the states tends to be transportation funding. States with small populations get disproportionate amounts of money for highways and bridges. But who does it benefit when California produce is shipped through Nevada to some other state for sale? Not the people of Nevada.

I suspect if you included all this in the analysis you'd find California a net beneficiary of federal largess.

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[mhajicek]

The trouble is whether or not law enforcement ignores them. It's hard to ignore law enforcement officers.

Never got to my Robert Anton Wilson

[smchris]

How many Illuminati are there again?

Re:Senate likely to pass treaty

[Hurricane78]

You mean it's hard for 307 *million* people to ignore the few LEO amongst them? Even with the 1,473,900 active personel in the millitary, they still vastly outnumber the cops/soldiers.

And you should never forget, that even a soldier with a tank is likely to join a giant group of so many protesters, that he does not see any chance other than dying inside that completely locked down tank.

The real problem is the retards out there, who are acting like passive, easily influencable cattle.