Chinese Gov't Pushing Linux In Rural China With Subsidies

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Chinese Gov't Pushing Linux In Rural China With Subsidies

Posted by timothy on Thursday October 22, 2009 @05:29PM from the stamp-of-approval dept.

nerdyH writes "The Chinese government's 'Go Rural' program offers subsidies up to 13 percent for rural residents who purchase approved nettops or netbooks. The systems come with a version of Red Flag Linux built on the Moblin stack. Along with Internet access, the software is said to provide apps for crop and livestock management, farm production marketing, remote office access/automation, and even online tour and hotel booking systems. Of course, Windows dominates the China market, and if traditional patterns hold, about 30 percent of these subsidized systems could ultimately wind up re-installed with Windows."

91 of 127 comments (clear)

13 percent? by cjfs · 2009-10-22 17:35 · Score: 1

the Chinese government began offering subsidies of up to 13 percent for residents in rural areas who purchase qualifying computers.
Is this really even a story? Having to buy a "qualifying" computer just to get 13% off doesn't seem like a deal.
1. Re:13 percent? by tftp · 2009-10-22 17:46 · Score: 1
  
  Having to buy a "qualifying" computer just to get 13% off doesn't seem like a deal.
  Computers are still expensive. Those 13% translate to some visible savings to a Chinese peasant.
2. Re:13 percent? by cjfs · 2009-10-22 17:58 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Computers are still expensive. Those 13% translate to some visible savings to a Chinese peasant.
  Not if they weren't the cheapest to begin with. Wouldn't you be skeptical of a USA Go Rural! computer being the best deal? I'm not quite sure what value to assign to an oppressive government's software either.
3. Re:13 percent? by Shadowruni · 2009-10-22 18:06 · Score: 1
  
  Are they in a position to:
  A: buy ANYTHING? (being a rural Chinese peasant doesn't pay too well I hear)
  B: *KNOW* that it's a bad deal and go to the China equivalent of NewEgg and build a better machine (being a rural Chinese peasant doesn't pay too well I hear)
  
  --
  "Chinese Amazons, power armor, laser swords.... things just meant to be." - Shampoo, A Very Scary Bet
4. Re:13 percent? by tftp · 2009-10-22 18:18 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  I'm not quite sure what value to assign to an oppressive government's software either
  Assign a lot of value and you won't be wrong. Apple's iPhone is a shining example of a computer that doesn't allow execution of anything that is not approved by authorities. China, with all its oppression, is not there yet. Now look at Apple's profits.
5. Re:13 percent? by Nested · 2009-10-22 18:23 · Score: 1
  
  At least Apple does not (yet) dictate how many children I may have.
6. Re:13 percent? by cjfs · 2009-10-22 18:48 · Score: 1
  
  Assign a lot of value and you won't be wrong. Apple's iPhone is a shining example of a computer that doesn't allow execution of anything that is not approved by authorities.
  Commercial quality assurance and government obedience assurance aren't exactly the same thing.
7. Re:13 percent? by razvan784 · 2009-10-22 18:54 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not quite sure what value to assign to an oppressive government's software either.
  Does the computer allow one to erase said software and install a clean distribution? If so, I see no fundamental problem. True, I don't expect many peasants to do that, if not because of the necessary technical skills, then because of their having better things to do such as caring for their crops. On the other hand, does its BIOS include a hidden hypervisor/backdoor? Is monitoring software included, that once erased, ceases to report the user's activities to the government, prompting repressive action? If not, again, I see no fundamental problem, but I see how this can help people manage their business better and also promote free software.
8. Re:13 percent? by tftp · 2009-10-22 18:56 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  My point is just that most people in the world (and in the USA) can't care less about their freedoms, in software and elsewhere. iPhone is just a test case. It is not hard to imagine this approach spreading to PCs. Windows already has the means built in. Simply require a valid signature on all .exe files - and guess who has the signing keys? You can sell this "for the children" or to fight viruses or to offer a guaranteed quality... the end result is the same - you lose.
9. Re:13 percent? by rolfwind · 2009-10-22 19:06 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Assign a lot of value and you won't be wrong. Apple's iPhone is a shining example of a computer that doesn't allow execution of anything that is not approved by authorities. China, with all its oppression, is not there yet. Now look at Apple's profits.
  That is the problem with geeks. They see the iPhone, they step back, and they compare it's features to that of a netbook, notebook, or a full-blown desktop computer and start bitching about what they can't do with the device.
  The general public does no such thing. For most people, the iPhone is their introduction to a smartphone, and they compare it to their previous phone, something like a Razr. Which also can be called a computer, except for its thinness, was pretty retarded in capabilities. When they compare the iPhone to the Razr, there is no contest. This device suddenly does what 90% everything they do on the computer, but fits in their pocket and is actually more capable at somethings and their are apps they never even thought of because it's just doesn't make sense on a PC. The App Store is perfect for them, because they'll likely get no malware through it, and it overall "just works". If not, they can take it to a friendly "genius" at the Apple store that will fix it for them.
  The geek, otoh, wonders if it can run linux, compares it to a computer, and inevitably complains about the restrictions that the PC doesn't present. The geeks are necessary and oftentimes beneficial for greater humanity, but their viewpoint on what is good vs what is bad does not necessarily translate into the viewpoint of the masses, and therefore what will be and what won't be market success.
  Now, if the future iPhone is on the way to becoming a Star Trek like computer and capabilities, with perfect voice recognitions and the capability to project big-enough holograms in lieu of screens, where-upon most people won't have a notebook/desktop anymore, the particular criticism of the closed eco-system becomes more biting.
10. Re:13 percent? by tftp · 2009-10-22 19:08 · Score: 1
  
  I think the whole issue of spying on barely literate peasants is overengineered by /. I could even agree that spying on city intellectuals would make at least some sense. But peasants? Forget it. If there is anything brewing in a remote village it won't be done on Internet, it will be done in tea houses, and that's where informers come into play.
  So IMO the risk of spying on peasants through this 13% program is minimal. Peasants do not matter, and there are too many of them to watch each and every one personally. There will be no wasted thoughts of hypervisors in BIOS. Chinese authorities may be ruthless to political opponents, but in general they want to develop the country, and these computers would be used just for that - to help farmers to run their business better, become richer, and ultimately buy Chinese factory products. The latter is very important because currently Chinese industry depends on foreign orders too much, and if anything happens in the world China may be hit hard. So far it managed to squeak through the financial troubles, but it was a good lesson for Chinese rulers. They want to develop internal market for Chinese-made factory products.
11. Re:13 percent? by noundi · 2009-10-22 21:03 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  That is the problem with geeks. They see the iPhone, they step back, and they compare it's features to that of a netbook, notebook, or a full-blown desktop computer and start bitching about what they can't do with the device.
  Oh fuck off. We saw the iPhone and said, ok so will it support MMS? No? 3G? No? Application market not dictated by a single entity? No? What about battery, can I change my own battery at least? No? I have a shitty symbian phone that is worth about as much as the lint in my pocket, which supports multitask, what about the iPhone? No??? Then what the fuck am I paying for? Touchscreen? No sir, the iPhone is ignored by the geeks for the same reason that Fiat is ignored by the car enthusiasts. It is simply a poor product.
  
  --
  I am the lawn!
12. Re:13 percent? by dwater · 2009-10-22 21:10 · Score: 1
  
  Well, *this* geek looks at the iPhone and compares its feature to pretty much every other phone on the market and wonders why the iPhone can't do the same thing. At least, he did with the first iPhone...kind of lost interest after that.
  
  --
  Max.
13. Re:13 percent? by imakemusic · 2009-10-22 22:32 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  That's because you haven't bought the iMsterile iPhone signal amplifier yet.
  
  --
  Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
14. Re:13 percent? by oldhack · 2009-10-22 23:00 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  That is the problem with geeks...
  
  Sup, dawg. We heard you have problems with geeks.
  GET THE FUCK OFF OUR LAWN.
  
  --
  Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
15. Re:13 percent? by daem0n1x · 2009-10-22 23:50 · Score: 1, Troll
  
  I AM VERY GLAD that the Chinese government dictates how many children they can have. It may suck for the Chinese people, but it's very good for the rest of us that they stopped the gigantic population growth they were having before these measures were in effect.
  It's very nice to have opinions when we're in the First World, sitting in our leather couch, watching our plasma TV, sipping 12 year scotch.
  See here
16. Re:13 percent? by Hurricane78 · 2009-10-22 23:57 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  You are so wrong, you make people feel like you're right again.
  You are the only one, assuming your assumptions. Everybody else compares the iPhone to simple run-off-the-mill smartphones from Nokia, Samsung, etc. And it simply can't hold a candle to any of them. That's a cold hard fact. Maybe you have only seen, what companies like Verizon offer you. But that is not, what you can actually buy in countries with working markets. Look at Germany. Look at Japan, dammit! Our phones are technical MONSTERS with functions that the iPhone can't even begin to dream of. PLUS total freedom. Hell, Nokia's N900 smartphone even offers you Linux with full root access right from the factory! No unlocking, to tricks, nothing. And on top of all the normal features.
  The simplest way to know that you have never used a recent smartphone: You think the iPhone is in any one aspect better than other smartphones.
  Apple is trying to play catch-up. That's all. The rest is pure and raw hype and a whole load of monopolism from US phone companies.
  
  --
  Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
17. Re:13 percent? by Mitchell314 · 2009-10-23 01:15 · Score: 1
  
  So? Use *.com . :P
  
  --
  I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
18. Re:13 percent? by Mitchell314 · 2009-10-23 01:17 · Score: 1
  
  Where is this geek that you know of? Seems like we need a little talk.
  
  --
  I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
19. Re:13 percent? by rtb61 · 2009-10-23 01:25 · Score: 1
  
  Consider more from a Chinese government perspective. They wish to distribute computers to regional areas, rather than pay the full cost, they are getting rural farmer to pay a substantive portion of the price. Now because the government is distributing the computers to keep the copy-rightists happy they can not exactly distribute them with pirated copies of windows. So distributing them at a further discount with Linux means a substantive saving for the government and if those units end up with pirated software, meh, so what.
  Of course as with most users, the real truth is is they will simply use the computers with what ever software comes with it.
  Now from a security stand point with a range of governments all with windows source code, all looking for unknown or undeclared security holes in the windows with which to hack each other systems, having a growing base of more secure open source software, where governments also look for holes but actually fix them and incorporate those fixes back into the code, to keep themselves secure with default installs.
  
  --
  Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
20. Re:13 percent? by jedidiah · 2009-10-23 01:44 · Score: 1
  
  China was having overpopulation issues when the roman legions were still roaming the Earth.
  This isn't something that you can casually extract from one country and bolt onto another (like 150 years of democracy).
  
  --
  A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
21. Re:13 percent? by morgauxo · 2009-10-23 02:08 · Score: 1
  
  What? Where is a democracy that lasted 150 years?
22. Re:13 percent? by morgauxo · 2009-10-23 02:29 · Score: 1
  
  Sounds more like a failing in the general public than a problem with geeks to me. It's not our fault if most people lack knowledge and imagination.
  
  Truth is we could have a cellphone which replaces at least our netbooks if not our laptops today if the manufacturers would produce it and carriers were willing to let it on their networks. All we need are two features, a USB host port and an OS open enough to allow the community to write drivers.
  
  OK, the screen would still be small and I don't think a projector is likely to be small enough to fit in the phone for a couple more years (not very far off). There are small pocket sized external projectors available today and rollup USB keyboards have been around forever. There's plenty of ways to do this. Personally I would like a Netbook sized device with extra storage, a netbook sized keyboard and either a netbook sized screen or a built in projector. There would be no processor, rather it would be a docking station for my phone. Ports for VGA, Keyboard and USB host would be in the back. Of course, the phone itself would have a USB port too. This would be an interim solution until we have nice rollup touch displays that allow my phone sized device to become a decent size tablet and then phone sized again. Even then I'll still want that USB host or better yet a faster, daisy-chainable equivalent. (like Firewire but with devices available to actually use it)
  
  The real reason we don't have this is the carriers have grown accustomed to being able to charge for the same thing multiple times. You want "unlimitted" data to your cellphone? Sure, it's yours for somewhere between $45-80/month. You want to use the data on a larger screen? Same or similar price again plus you buy a USB or PCMCIA card.
23. Re:13 percent? by morgauxo · 2009-10-23 02:31 · Score: 1
  
  There are multiple kinds of geeks. Actually, if you over analyze it the word geek pretty much loses all meaning.
24. Re:13 percent? by morgauxo · 2009-10-23 02:33 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  I don't want to look at what Germany, Japan and others have available. It makes me angry we don't get the same. Thanks a lot for telling me about the N900. I want to be ignorant now. LA LA LA LA LA finger in ears LA LA LA LA
25. Re:13 percent? by noundi · 2009-10-23 02:52 · Score: 1
  
  The iphone is ignored by geeks? You seriously need to leave the basement.
  Every "geek" and IT person I know has an iphone.
  Well this will end in a war of semantics, but I'll explain why you misunderstand me. My definition of geek in this sense is a person with good technological understanding. Your definition of geek is somebody who "uses computers 'n' stuff". Just because you touch technology it doesn't mean you understand it. The only arguments I have heard for purchasing an iPhone which are based on truth are: "I like it", "I think it's nice", "I want to have one, stop trying to fucking tell me what to do". There is not one single technical advantage in that phone, not even one. And no, the touchscreen is poorly executed and I understand that multitouch is a "young" technology, but if it's poor -- it's poor -- no matter if it's the best version around. I'd pick keys over the iPhone touchscreen any day.
  
  --
  I am the lawn!
26. Re:13 percent? by rolfwind · 2009-10-23 03:07 · Score: 1
  
  Application market not dictated by a single entity?
  This is pretty much what I'm talking about.
  
  No sir, the iPhone is ignored by the geeks for the same reason that Fiat is ignored by the car enthusiasts. It is simply a poor product.
  I doubt it is "ignored." Last I looked, Kevin Rose had an iPhone, but that was a while back.
27. Re:13 percent? by rolfwind · 2009-10-23 03:09 · Score: 1
  
  Our phones are technical MONSTERS with functions that the iPhone can't even begin to dream of. PLUS total freedom. Hell, Nokia's N900 smartphone even offers you Linux with full root access right from the factory!
  This is pretty much what I'm talking about.
  iPhone is/(was? from August) number 1 in Japan:
  http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/08/17/apples-iphone-3gs-is-no-1-in-japan/
28. Re:13 percent? by kamapuaa · 2009-10-23 03:18 · Score: 1
  
  You're delusional. Japanese phones are the size of a brick and they aren't half as good as an iPhone. The standard Japanese phone (a gigantic flip phone with a custom OS) reminds one of taking a flip phone from ten years ago and highly refining it for internet access. The iPhone, with a much larger screen and an OS that you can actually get programs for, is superior in every single way to a Japanese phone. Really. There are no points on which the standard Japanese brick-phone is better than an iPhone. Japanese cell phones suck and their foreign ventures have all met with immediate financial disaster and closed, except for Sony-Ericsson which is losing money but sticking with it.
  iPhones are hot sellers in Japan. iPhones actually are quite popular all around the world. I don't have one because I prefer small & cheap, but be real.
  Really all you said about the Nokia 9000 is that it can run Linux. Who wants to do that on their cell phone?
  
  --
  Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
29. Re:13 percent? by cyfer2000 · 2009-10-23 04:28 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, same old same old.
  
  --
  There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
30. Re:13 percent? by mrwolf007 · 2009-10-23 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  Really all you said about the Nokia 9000 is that it can run Linux. Who wants to do that on their cell phone?
  Well, cant speak for everyone, but this is the first i thinking about getting a mobile phone again.
  Havent had a mobile phone for like 3 years now, and i really enjoy not being reachable all the time.
  But this isnt just a Linux kernel. Its a fully blown version with GTK and QT. So you can easily adapt pretty much every program you use on you normal linux box.
31. Re:13 percent? by noundi · 2009-10-23 06:43 · Score: 1
  
  Application market not dictated by a single entity?
  This is pretty much what I'm talking about.
  
  No sir, the iPhone is ignored by the geeks for the same reason that Fiat is ignored by the car enthusiasts. It is simply a poor product.
  I doubt it is "ignored." Last I looked, Kevin Rose had an iPhone, but that was a while back.
  Which only proves that Kevin Rose is subject to the vanity of fashion. The iPhone is a severely crippled device, and if I had money shooting out of my ass, like Kevin does, I too would have bought whatever shit that crossed my mind. Just because I could. But my ass doesn't shoot money, so I'm bound to be a smart consumer. Still, even with all it's crippling shit, the biggest reason why buying an iPhone would never cross my mind is due to the same reason that I would never attend to a school which could dictate in what companies I could use their education upon graduation, the same reason I wouldn't purchase a toothbrush from a producer which can forbid me to use certain brand of toothpaste, and last but not least the car analogy: the same reason why I would never purchase a car from a manufacturer that is allowed to ban me from driving in some countries. So why is this line of thinking so accepted within software? I'll tell you why, because people, as the idiots they are, for some reason accepted it. Don't you think car manufacturers would love it if they could ban certain cars of theirs from countries, so that you'd have to rent or purchase another of their brand when inside that specific country. But this is impossible, at least today -- because people would simply go: "fuck that shit", just like I do with the iPhone. This artificial scarcity takes control away from the consumer -- and frankly if you try to pull that shit on me I'll merely introduce you to sir middlefinger.
  
  --
  I am the lawn!
But does it run by hansraj · 2009-10-22 17:44 · Score: 1

Green Dam?
So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by thatkid_2002 · 2009-10-22 17:56 · Score: 2, Funny

So these Chinese farmers can use Linux... but can their grandmothers?
1. Re:So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-22 18:26 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  As an American living in China, I believe that people in rural China, as well as the elderly, could really surprise many westerners. For example, it is very common for the elderly here to trade stocks as a hobby, and community English classes are often full of retired people who are eager to learn, and who race to raise their hands when it is time for questions. Many people here really value knowledge and love to learn, and they are very often not the youngest, most educated, or most privileged.
  
  I often wish that English and Chinese were not among the most difficult languages to learn, because it would be a much more interesting world if Chinese culture was more open to us.
2. Re:So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by gerddie · 2009-10-22 22:20 · Score: 1
  
  One might add that compared to most European languages English rules for pronunciation are not easy to grasp, to say the least: e.g., compare "creature/creation", "corpse/corps", "horse/worse", "head/heat".
3. Re:So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by TheRaven64 · 2009-10-22 22:24 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Learning to speak English well is difficult. Most native speakers can't do it, and writing it is even harder. The spelling, grammar, and punctuation rules are inherited not just from several different languages, but from at least three distinct language families. The advantage English has is that the language contains a lot of redundancy (which advocates of the Saphir-Wharf hypothesis believe encourages flexibly thought, but I digress) which means that it is very easy to speak English badly, but comprehensibly.
  Compare it to another popular world language, like Spanish (or Portuguese) and you'll see something that is a lot easier to learn. A few years ago I came across a study in relative difficulty of learning languages. It ranked all of the world's major languages on a difficulty scale, measuring things like regularity and similarity to other languages. This gave every language two scores, one an absolute difficulty and one a difficulty for people already familiar with some other language. English consistently ranked as one of the most difficult (although it wasn't the most difficult), both in absolute terms and relative to other languages. I can't find a reference to the study at the moment, but if someone else can then please post it.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
4. Re:So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by zach_the_lizard · 2009-10-23 00:01 · Score: 1
  
  Spelling, too, is a nightmare, even for native speakers. Not only do we have crazy spellings like "knight," we also have regional differences in some of our crazy spellings, such as "color" and "colour."
  Some of the European languages (and probably others) do have a handful of things that are more complex, such as gender rules, that have mostly died out in English.
  
  --
  SSC
5. Re:So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by turing_m · 2009-10-23 00:34 · Score: 1
  
  A few years ago I came across a study in relative difficulty of learning languages. It ranked all of the world's major languages on a difficulty scale, measuring things like regularity and similarity to other languages.
  This isn't that study, but I did find it interesting. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_Speakers
  
  --
  If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
6. Re:So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by morgauxo · 2009-10-23 02:45 · Score: 1
  
  I dunno, given the choice between an american grandmother and an average american 20-something I'll bet on the grandmother any day.
7. Re:So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by ianare · 2009-10-23 02:51 · Score: 1
  
  French and Italian easier to learn than German for an English speaker? No way!
8. Re:So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by t_ban · 2009-10-23 03:49 · Score: 1
  
  Learning to speak English well is difficult. Most native speakers can't do it, and writing it is even harder.
  Many non-native speakers, myself included, may disagree with you. I learned English from books, not through speech. I am totally comfortable when I read or write it, but tend to fumble and falter when i speak it.
  
  Compare it to another popular world language, like Spanish (or Portuguese) and you'll see something that is a lot easier to learn.
  
  That is not wholly true either. One big thing going for English is its lack of grammatical gender. I found gendered languages like Spanish and German significantly more difficult to learn than English, if only because I have to remember the gender of each individual noun I use. In fact, I have always found it an incredible feat that proficient native speakers of these languages manage to do this. Luckily, neither English nor my first language (Bangla) has this problematic feature.
  
  --
  First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. -Gandhi
9. Re:So Simple Chinese Farmers Can Use it by minstrelmike · 2009-10-24 04:14 · Score: 1
  
  Check out dyslexia if you want to consider lingual differences. Richard Lederer in one of his many books said there are about 80 different sounds we make., In Spanish, there are 200 ways to spell those sounds, in French, there are 300, in English, there are 1100.
  
  English has more of an issue with dyslexia than Spanish speakers do. Those are medical facts you can check across the spelling spectrum.
How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by bezenek · 2009-10-22 17:56 · Score: 1, Redundant

What percentage of the Windows PCs in China are running a licensed copy of Windows?

The reason I ask is someone can buy one of these and "repurpose" it to a non-legal copy of Windows, ending up with a 13% + (the price of Windows on the same machine) savings.

-Todd

--
Omne ignotum pro magnifico.
1. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by tftp · 2009-10-22 18:08 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  someone can buy one of these and "repurpose" it to a non-legal copy of Windows, ending up with a 13% + (the price of Windows on the same machine) savings.
  It's something that only a geek would do; and even if a geek does this, it doesn't matter. There aren't too many geeks in rural China, and it could be that there is more software available for Red Flag Linux in those remote areas than for Windows. Why? Because warez, even on CDs, need to be delivered and sold, and they need to be localized, and they need to be pre-cracked, and everything should work so that a rice farmer can just plug it in and use. But how many warez are like that? But RFL software can be distributed by the government, legally of course, and there is already so much of it that you need some advice on what to use (which one out of hundred text editors, for example?) IMO, a farmer would be better off getting a cheaper computer *and* a supported OS + applications. There is even no viable reason for a farmer to need Windows. You or me may need Windows to run some specific apps; but what apps a farmer needs? A Web browser, mostly. If there is no Internet link then he needs OpenOffice and a printer. His children need some programming language (which Linux distributions are not short of.) And perhaps a few thousand ebooks in the local language. Windows doesn't come with most of that, except the browser (and the browser is IE, to make things worse.)
2. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by Jurily · 2009-10-22 18:10 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  What percentage of the Windows PCs in China are running a licensed copy of Windows?
  If Hungary can be used as a base of estimate, I'd say somewhere between 0 and 1.
  We just don't give a shit about your licencing issues. I'm not even sure fair use doesn't cover it for personal use, and I have certainly never seen anyone who didn't run a business and cared. And for the people who do, it's just a drop in the bucket in case of an audit (tax evasion is a national sport here: the alternative is bankruptcy).
3. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by cp.tar · 2009-10-22 18:23 · Score: 1
  
  What percentage of the Windows PCs in China are running a licensed copy of Windows?
  If Hungary can be used as a base of estimate, I'd say somewhere between 0 and 1.
  We just don't give a shit about your licencing issues. I'm not even sure fair use doesn't cover it for personal use, and I have certainly never seen anyone who didn't run a business and cared. And for the people who do, it's just a drop in the bucket in case of an audit (tax evasion is a national sport here: the alternative is bankruptcy).
  I see Hungary is in no better state than Croatia.
  Do you think we could push tax evasion as the next Olympic sport? I hear the Swedes are great at it, too...
  
  --
  Ignore this signature. By order.
4. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by dwater · 2009-10-22 21:13 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  > It's something that only a geek would do
  In my experience, there are plenty of geeks in PRC, rural or otherwise. People would just take it to their nearest one who is likely making a nice profit from providing the service.
  
  --
  Max.
5. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by hairyfish · 2009-10-22 22:13 · Score: 1
  
  Dude have you been to China? Everything in your posts says you haven't. Farmers will want Windows for the same reasons the rest of the world (outside the rabid fundamentalist creationist linux types) wants it. Most other people use it, and it does what they need out of it.
6. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by sam0737 · 2009-10-23 00:29 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I bet 50% of the machine (or resources) will end up in official's hands, instead of farmers. And then their kids and relatives definitely needs Windows to run whatsoever software.
  
  The most popular IM in China, QQ, only has client for windows. Well, Pidgin also support the basic of the protocol, but lacking a whole lot of features, and I doubt how many people know Pidgin.
  
  The online banking requires the use of Windows software (although it's an IE wrapper) to do transaction/wire-transfer. The web accessible version is a strip-down which allows query only.
  
  The debit/credit card here usually support a local network called YinLian, optionally along with Visa/Master, and local e-commence usually go through the local payment network. Each bank requires to built a Internet payment gateway for that, and the interface of the payment gateway of most banks require the use of Active-X.
  
  So for a computer to be useful in China, you really need Windows and Internet Explorer.
7. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by demachina · 2009-10-23 02:52 · Score: 1
  
  "someone can buy one of these and "repurpose" it to a non-legal copy of Windows"
  Chances are the Chinese government is doing this for precisely this reason...
  The thing they don't want is anyone buying Windows or a Windows PC and sending ANY money to the U.S. I wager all the "qualifying" netbooks are probably manufactured in China as well, they aren't paying the Microsoft tax on them and there is a 13% discount to boot so no one in China buys anything U.S. They can't openly promote pirating Windows without causing WTO issues so they do the next best thing. They promote computers with Linux and look the other way at the massive pirating of Windows. If people actually run Linux that's OK too. The one thing they DON'T want is for someone to actually buy anything from the U.S. and cut in to their massive trade surplus.
  Their long term strategy is to destroy the U.S. and to a lesser extent Europe by maintaining a massive and unsustainable trade surplus and by undercutting and destroying all manufacturing and business in the West. This is why they peg their currency to the dollar. If it weren't pegged it would have gone way up in the face of the huge trade imbalance. If their currency was floating the U.S. would be competitive again and all our jobs would stop flowing to China. China wants to prevent that at all costs. Japan was killing the U.S. economically in the 80's but they let their currency float, the Yen soared, Japanese competitiveness declined and the Japanese ended in two decades of stagnation and are deeper in debt than the U.S. percentage wise. The Chinese learned that lesson so they won't let their currency float until they finish off the U.S.
  They don't want to destroy the U.S. immediately, they want to suck every last dime out of it they can, and when there isn't any more to take then they start dumping all their dollars, stop pegging their currency, and watch the U.S. go down and down hard. In a lot of ways this is how they win the cold war. They couldn't win militarily so they just opted for somewhat slower economic warfare and the retarded political and business leaders in the West are falling for it hook, line and sinker.
  
  --
  @de_machina
8. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by mathfeel · 2009-10-23 07:56 · Score: 1
  
  It's something that only a geek would do; and even if a geek does this, it doesn't matter. There aren't too many geeks in rural China, and it could be that there is more software available for Red Flag Linux in those remote areas than for Windows.
  Show me a farmer's 10 year old son (or daughter), and I'll show you someone who will very quickly learn how to tingle with a computer.
  
  Why? Because warez, even on CDs, need to be delivered and sold, and they need to be localized, and they need to be pre-cracked, and everything should work so that a rice farmer can just plug it in and use. But how many warez are like that?
  Last time I was in China, the local software shop sold pre-crack photoshop for < $1 USD. Same goes for AutoCAD, Visual Studio...
  
  --
  The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't
9. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by arjan_t · 2009-10-23 08:48 · Score: 1
  
  The reason I ask is someone can buy one of these and "repurpose" it to a non-legal copy of Windows, ending up with a 13% + (the price of Windows on the same machine) savings.
  Well, if you're in China and you're the Chinese guy running this program, then it must be extremely easy to manufacture some crappy piece of hardware. Now make sure that Windows has no drivers for this (easy, since you yourself are that Chinese manufacturer, you just don't write Windows drivers). Simply install this piece of hardware in all those qualified PCs and make sure that this Red Flag Linux supports this hardware out of the box (easy, since you control the OS).
  That should be enough to keep this insidious Windows away from those poor farmers!
10. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by badkarmadayaccount · 2009-10-23 23:49 · Score: 1
  
  s/Windows/WINE/g
  
  --
  I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
11. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by JAlexoi · 2009-10-24 11:19 · Score: 1
  
  This implies that the farmer has experience with Windows. New computer users, will easily use Linux without even thinking of switching.
12. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by dwater · 2009-10-24 18:59 · Score: 1
  
  yeah, I guess this is more plausible.
  
  --
  Max.
13. Re:How many of the Windows PCs in China are legal? by MrResistor · 2009-10-26 12:13 · Score: 1
  
  I'm pretty sure the Chinese government can get those problems fixed if they want to.
  
  --
  Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Re:I'd re-build my kernel from scratch... by Jurily · 2009-10-22 18:00 · Score: 1

People have been using IE5 for years. Don't underestimate the peasants.
Arrr Matey! Here there be Market Share?! by Shadowruni · 2009-10-22 18:02 · Score: 4, Interesting

Seriously, where do people get these numbers? My thing about this is this. We know many small companies don't pay for their software HERE in the states (one of my biggest challenges as a small biz IT consultant/freelancer). We also know that Chinese piracy is considered an art form in some places. Taken together, the market share statement makes little sense. How can you know what the share is, if you've no legit data? One other thing, to someone who NEVER USED a computer and just want web, email, and simple things like YouTube or word processing(most people don't use even a tenth the total capabilities of Word or Excel). They will see nothing special about Windows, Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD as they all can do that with no real issue. Let me preface this with, I'm writing this on my Ubuntu powered notebook, that's authed against my 2008 AD that also auths my kid's Gallery running on another Linux server. Most people will cry, "But those other OSes have hardware issues please help us", and I'll whisper, "No." .... and then remember that these machines came with Linux and thus should already work fine since it's 2009 and not 1999.

--
"Chinese Amazons, power armor, laser swords.... things just meant to be." - Shampoo, A Very Scary Bet
1. Re:Arrr Matey! Here there be Market Share?! by cjfs · 2009-10-22 18:10 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  How can you know what the share is, if you've no legit data?
  
  It's simple math. So you've got 1.3 billion people in China, we sold 244 copies, so that's a 99.9999812% piracy rate. It's obvious.
2. Re:Arrr Matey! Here there be Market Share?! by Shadowruni · 2009-10-22 18:18 · Score: 1
  
  Just think, somewhere right now, Ballmer is kicking a Chinese pirate in the nads right now.
  
  --
  "Chinese Amazons, power armor, laser swords.... things just meant to be." - Shampoo, A Very Scary Bet
3. Re:Arrr Matey! Here there be Market Share?! by bertoelcon · 2009-10-22 18:43 · Score: 1
  
  I can't find it but didn't Ballmer make a statement about piracy of Windows in China saying it was a good thing because it brought mindshare or locked-down-ness or something like that.
  
  --
  Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
4. Re:Arrr Matey! Here there be Market Share?! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2009-10-22 23:55 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  "If you're going to be a software counterfeiter, then please copy and illegally use Microsoft products. The above plea isn't from a posting on a hacker forum. Rather, it's how Microsoft business group president Jeff Raikes feels about software counterfeiters. "If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else," Raikes said.
  
  From here.
  
  Ballmer might also have said something to that effect, though I didn't see it. The logic is pretty obvious. Pirates cost MS little or nothing(directly, that is, "lost sales" claims can give you just about any number you want) and the tendency to keep using whatever you are already using is quite strong with complex IT systems. Far better to simply have to tighten the licensing screws later, rather than try to push wholesale migration from somebody else' platform later.
Re:I'd re-build my kernel from scratch... by Shadowruni · 2009-10-22 18:08 · Score: 1

...a quote from HHGTTG fits this very well: "to Arthur's embarrassment he found himself curled in a ball on the floor"

--
"Chinese Amazons, power armor, laser swords.... things just meant to be." - Shampoo, A Very Scary Bet
Source Code - open to scrutiny and fixes by imrehg · 2009-10-22 18:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

This can be a very useful thing, if they keep their legal responsibilities according to GPL: They have to distribute the source code for it as well. Thus it should be much easier to spot every code that does not really belong there and aimed at spying on/restric/keeping in line the population.... as well as fixing these if one needs to. There's a future project for an NGO....
1. Re:Source Code - open to scrutiny and fixes by tftp · 2009-10-22 18:32 · Score: 1, Flamebait
  
  They have to distribute the source code for it as well. Thus it should be much easier to spot every code that does not really belong there and aimed at spying on/restric/keeping in line the population
  Chinese authorities don't need to do a thing. Just bundle a browser (IE on Windows, FF on Linux) and preconfigure its phishing checker to report all URLs to a server that is ran by the government. Preconfigure the checker to be ON by default. 99.999% of the intended audience will never realize what's happening. Those who know what it is will turn it off, but they are too smart anyway for *this level* of monitoring.
2. Re:Source Code - open to scrutiny and fixes by RAMMS+EIN · 2009-10-22 19:22 · Score: 1
  
  ``This can be a very useful thing, if they keep their legal responsibilities according to GPL: They have to distribute the source code for it as well.''
  Hahahaha! Thanks, man. I needed a good joke to start the day with.
  
  --
  Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
3. Re:Source Code - open to scrutiny and fixes by True+Grit · 2009-10-22 22:46 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  They have to distribute the source code for it as well. Thus it should be much easier to spot every code that does not really belong there and aimed at spying on/restric/keeping in line the population
  Chinese authorities don't need to do a thing. Just bundle a browser (IE on Windows, FF on Linux) and preconfigure its phishing checker to report all URLs to a server that is ran by the government. Preconfigure the checker to be ON by default. 99.999% of the intended audience will never realize what's happening. Those who know what it is will turn it off, but they are too smart anyway for *this level* of monitoring.
  Do they even need to do that much?
  Doesn't their 'Great Chinese Firewall' already give them enough oversight of the net internal to China to control their own population?
  If you control the pipe, then you can control, or at least know, what goes through it.
Slashdot falls in a faint by superyanthrax · 2009-10-22 20:08 · Score: 1

A governmental agency is supporting and distributing Linux and using subsidies to get people to buy it. But it's the Evil Communist Chinese. Oh no, what is a good China-hating Linux-loving Slashdot denizen to do?
1. Re:Slashdot falls in a faint by Odinlake · 2009-10-22 20:44 · Score: 1
  
  A governmental agency is supporting and distributing Linux and using subsidies to get people to buy it. But it's the Evil Communist Chinese. Oh no, what is a good China-hating Linux-loving Slashdot denizen to do?
  Whine and bitch about how stupid the world is, of course. Maybe put in a little clever self-irony, a witticism or two - always keep an eye out for a "you insensitive clod" opportunity. Then click refresh repeatedly, fervently hope to be modded up to get illusions of being socially accepted.
2. Re:Slashdot falls in a faint by dangitman · 2009-10-22 20:48 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I wonder what the more Libertarian FOSS advocates think of this. On the one hand, it's providing liberty, on the other hand, it's evil government intervention in the holy Free Market!
  
  --
  ... and then they built the supercollider.
3. Re:Slashdot falls in a faint by True+Grit · 2009-10-22 22:35 · Score: 1
  
  Oh no, what is a good China-hating Linux-loving Slashdot denizen to do?
  Whine and bitch about how stupid the world is, of course.
  China-hating, Linux-loving Slashdot denizens aren't the only ones doing that.
  Its a popular, global pastime.
  :)
4. Re:Slashdot falls in a faint by selven · 2009-10-22 22:56 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  As a libertarian, I think it's a perfectly legitimate action - using Windows harms everyone by encouraging people to develop only for MS, strengthening their monopoly and allowing them to implement even worse pricing/EULAs/lockin. So the government has to step in and encourage some competition.
5. Re:Slashdot falls in a faint by rohan972 · 2009-10-22 23:16 · Score: 1
  
  My own (Australian) government only makes it's online tax reporting software available as windows only, making windows just short of compulsory. I would see the Chinese government offering a subsidy and some apps for a FOSS OS to it's people as a lower level of market intervention than requiring the use of a proprietary OS for taxation reporting.
  
  So I would regard it as not ideal, but significantly better than is being done in at least one of the "politically free", "free market" countries.
  
  --
  http://marriedmansexlife.com/
6. Re:Slashdot falls in a faint by turing_m · 2009-10-23 01:05 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe put in a little clever self-irony, a witticism or two - always keep an eye out for a "you insensitive clod" opportunity
  I never keep an eye out for "insensitive clod" opportunities, you insensitive clod!
  
  --
  If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
7. Re:Slashdot falls in a faint by morgauxo · 2009-10-23 02:59 · Score: 1
  
  That will be in GPL v4
8. Re:Slashdot falls in a faint by selven · 2009-10-23 14:05 · Score: 1
  
  I'm a libertarian in the sense that I believe in giving people more freedom, including the freedom to give up one's freedom, ie. sell oneself into slavery. The amount of money that the government spends is not as important to me as preserving basic freedoms.
I wish Microsoft tried to do something about it. by blind+biker · 2009-10-22 20:48 · Score: 1

Now that would be an even battle. Possibly ending with some bitch-slapping of Microsoft.

--
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Re:I'd re-build my kernel from scratch... by True+Grit · 2009-10-22 22:09 · Score: 1

Don't underestimate the peasants.
Yes, *especially* if you're a queen who thinks cakes are easier and cheaper to make than bread.
Copyright is a government grant anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-22 22:44 · Score: 1, Interesting

Copyright is a government grant anyway as is private property (they can just take it), so this isn't a problem.
Compared to the restrictions the chinese populate work under, not having the source code to Linux rates REAL low down.
Re:I wish Microsoft tried to do something about it by True+Grit · 2009-10-22 22:57 · Score: 1

Now that would be an even battle.
How would it be even? They only power MS has inside of China's borders is whatever the Chinese government choses to give them (and could take away at any time). MS isn't a government: no citizens, no army, no nukes.
Although, giving them enough time, and Ballmer enough chairs, then anything may be possible, I suppose...
Might help if they fixed China Telecomm first by Anonymous Coward · 2009-10-22 23:59 · Score: 1, Interesting

I'm here in Shanghai right now.
Just got ADSL hooked up through China Telecom.
Unfortunately I couldn't get the ADSL to initialize, even though I had 2 different routers (both types suggested by the tech), 2 different linux boxes and windows server 2000 running their provided client.
The tech used his XP laptop to kick start the ADSL. It ran for a day and then I totally lost connection.
After getting the 4th phone number I got a hold of a higher tech guy.
Apparently you have to use a windows XP box to initiate the DSL because they're using some MS specific stuff in PPPOE. His claim was "linux doesn't support this". Apparently nothing else does either. I think I have a workaround in place, it's been working for a few days but I don't think I can ever shut down the modem or the router.
Point being, they have to take their infrastructure seriously if they even want to begin supporting anything else.
authorities?.. (was: Re: 13 percent?) by mi · 2009-10-23 00:37 · Score: 1

Apple's iPhone is a shining example of a computer that doesn't allow execution of anything that is not approved by authorities.
"Authorities" is government. Apple is not government.
The distinction is significant, because Apple's device was made by them — it is not attributable to a dime of taxpayer's money, and is not handed out by a government as part of any policy. Maybe, you should've used government-sponsored school and library computers for your example — those are, indeed, very limited by their government-related owners in what one is allowed to do with them.
Perhaps, bashing private corporations rather than government schools and libraries is part of a bigger fight For The Greater Good(TM), that is not immediately obvious? Or is it?

--
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
1. Re:authorities?.. (was: Re: 13 percent?) by morgauxo · 2009-10-23 02:38 · Score: 1
  
  Bad comparison. The school or library own those computers. They are just allowing you to use them. Apple doesn't own your iPhone. That's why you paid for it! What's with this idea that companies that make stuff own it even after selling. It seems to be a generational thing, did a generation of parents fail to teach their kids the concepts of ownership, money and purchasing? If I loan you my car I have every right to put limitations on how you use it. If I sell you the car then tell you where you can and cannot go you have every right to tell me to STFU. It's really a simple concept, why don't people get it?
2. Re:authorities?.. (was: Re: 13 percent?) by mi · 2009-10-23 03:13 · Score: 1
  
  The school or library own those computers. They are just allowing you to use them.
  Libraries let taxpayers use the devices, that the taxpayers own. Unlike buying an iPhone, paying for the libraries' computers is not even voluntary... If any computer-use restrictions deserve scrutiny, it is those imposed by the government (including schools and libraries) on the captive populace — not those a corporation manages to impose on consumers free to choose any product they like.
  
  Potentially, a government is the most dangerous threat to man's rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims.
  Ayn Rand
  
  --
  In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Re:I wish Microsoft tried to do something about it by sowth · 2009-10-23 01:09 · Score: 1

Yes, give Ballmer some nuclear chairs! That should do it.
Thanks by acaiberryblast3 · 2009-10-23 02:02 · Score: 1

Thanks for the input.
Livestock and crop software by chord.wav · 2009-10-23 02:05 · Score: 1

Can any of you please tell me which applications they are talking about? Or can you point me some OS livestock/crop management applications for Linux?
Thanks!
Re:I'd re-build my kernel from scratch... by morgauxo · 2009-10-23 02:42 · Score: 1

Hmmm... That could be kind of fun. Next I'd write a script to make it load Falun Gong sites all day just to keep some Chinese internet cop busy. Of course, I'd only do that while I'm here at home in the USA. If I were visiting I'd probably just stay offline for a while.
"Approved" nettop or netbook: by kheldan · 2009-10-23 03:52 · Score: 1

Read that as: "Comes pre-installed with spyware". Although, as some have previously commented, rural Chinese probably have enough of a time affording the basic necessities for living and can't even dream of affording a computer of any sort.

--
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
I would disagree with this. by sean.peters · 2009-10-23 03:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

The spelling, grammar, and punctuation rules are inherited not just from several different languages, but from at least three distinct language families.
Spelling, sure. All the words conform to whatever spelling rules were in effect in the language we borrowed them from, at the time we borrowed, them, rather than to some overarching set of spelling rules. That does make it hard to spell English words. Vocabulary might be an issue too, as it's my understanding that English has a lot more total words than many other languages.
But grammar? English nouns don't have gender. That alone is a giant simplification from other languages - at a minimum, you don't have to memorize the forms of the articles (as an example, in German, the words for knife, fork, and spoon each have a different gender, and there's no particular rhyme or reason to the selection). Also, English has a relatively simple case structure: we have the subjective, objective, and possessive cases. German has four - Nominative (subject), Accusative (direct object), Dative (indirect object), and Genitive (possessive). And of course, the articles for the each of the noun's genders are different for each case, so you have 12 variations on the word "the" to keep track of. Other languages have even more cases.
Word order is also the fairly straightforward subject-verb-object form, and beyond that, you can be fairly flexible in how you arrange your sentences. In German, when describing an action, you must specify "time, manner, place", in that order - so you can say "I went today quickly to the stadium", but not "I went quickly to the stadium today", or "I went to the stadium quickly today".
I've also heard tell of these studies that indicate other languages are easier than English to learn, but I'm sort of baffled by this. I spent some time learning German in the distant past, and my continual thought was "man, I'm glad we don't have so many weird rules". But then German is incredibly easy to spell - if you can pronounce a word, there is one and only one way to spell it - so that was nice.