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Game Retailers Facing Digital Distribution Transition

This editorial at Eurogamer examines how the games industry is dealing with the growth of digital distribution — a transition they're handling better than other entertainment industries, but not without a few stumbling blocks of their own. "The examples from other industries undergoing this transition are not promising, since they tend largely to focus on metaphors involving creeks and a distinct lack of paddles. Bricks-and-mortar retailers of music and movies have largely sat back and grumbled while their businesses were hijacked, first by online retailers of physical product and then by digital distribution services. ... Specialist games retailers who follow that model face little more than a decline into insolvency in their medium-term futures. Worse again, they face competing with far bigger companies to retain their slice of an already shrinking pie — as boxed game retail sales fall off in favor of digital distribution, supermarket chains are increasingly seeing high profile games as a worthwhile loss-leaders."

155 comments

  1. And the hardware? by houstonbofh · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Something tells me that it will be harder to download the game hardware itself. And yes, you can buy it online, but there is a huge "I want it NOW!" market that online and shipping will never satisfy. But the margins will have to come down on many things, and value (Expertise perhaps) will have to go up.

    1. Re:And the hardware? by Bieeanda · · Score: 0, Troll

      Then the buyer goes to Wal-Mart, Best Buy, or another big box store that can afford to have computer and console games and accessories as a sideline, instead of a specialty shop that may or may not have what you want in stock. If the big box doesn't have it, chances are the little boutique won't if you didn't pre-order it either.

    2. Re:And the hardware? by maxume · · Score: 0, Troll

      You seriously consider true ownership a value?

      I love renting stuff when I can get what I need for less that it would cost to own.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:And the hardware? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      There are those oldschool values like true ownership not rental, freedom to use stuff you paid for as you please - and they are important to some people.

      Which would be great, if you actually got those when buying the game. Sure the End User License Agreement may be unenforceable in some places, but that doesn't mean they won't try their hardest.

    4. Re:And the hardware? by Draek · · Score: 1

      There are those oldschool values like true ownership not rental, freedom to use stuff you paid for as you please - and they are important to some people.

      True, but most of us can't afford to pay $10k+ for the copyrights of each game we want to play, so we settle for a simple $20 license instead.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    5. Re:And the hardware? by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Quite the opposite. A specialized store will probably have it, or at the very least know immediately where to get it within 2 days. A big store using computers as a sideline, additional income will only offer you what's mainstream and most of the time won't bother with special orders at all.

      Especially with hardware I do not want to deal with stores that sell it alongside of consoles, dvd players and toilet paper. Neither with online stores. The reason is simple: It's cheaper for hardware manufacturers to deal with RMAs than to bother with QA. In other words, more and more hardware you buy simply does not work out of the box. And then I want to deal with a store that will give me immediately a replacement instead of sending it in and waiting 3-4 weeks 'til they get a replacement from their distributor.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:And the hardware? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Steam actually found the sweetspot between control and convenience, thus it prevails.

      And, face it: You're not far from rental with "really" bought box items either. Ever tried to install and play an old game? 9 out of 10 times you'll notice that for some odd reason it doesn't work with your newer version of your OS anymore and the manufacturer can't be bothered to make it compatible anymore. If nothing else fails, the copy protection certainly will.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:And the hardware? by Vaphell · · Score: 1

      but steam games are not visibly cheaper than the box versions, that's the point - in fact in majority of Europe they are more expensive that in retail shops. If they were 50% cheaper across the board then we would be talking.

    8. Re:And the hardware? by Narpak · · Score: 1

      Seems to me that what people seem to forget is that when it comes down to it Video Games are consumer goods. Sure you might want to play through a game several times, or pick it up and go through it again a few years down the line, but for many, and for most games, you play it until you have finished it or is bored with it; and then you move on to another newer brighter shinier game. That's not saying that some games don't stick around for years, particular those with strong multiplayer elements; but how many frequently play a single player game six-seven-eight years old? And how many of the games enjoyed now will still be worth looking at five years down the line?

      Ten years ago I still bought games through one of the local stores where I lived, and rarely read reviews beforehand, I had game boxes stacked to the roof; and most of their names or content I can not recall even on a good day.

    9. Re:And the hardware? by Vaphell · · Score: 1

      True, but most of us can't afford to pay $10k+ for the copyrights of each game we want to play, so we settle for a simple $20 license instead.

      you pay 10k for the books, audio CDs or movie DVDs?!? really? They are copyright encumbered but you are the de facto owner of the copy you purchased, why on earth it should be different with games?

    10. Re:And the hardware? by sopssa · · Score: 1

      For example g2play sells games with really cheap prices (and yes they're legit). For example the new Cities XL game sells for 13 euros while everywhere else (online and retail) it's around 49 euros.

      That's quite a lot cheaper than walking to store.

    11. Re:And the hardware? by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They would love to offer the games for cheap on Steam, but the game publishers don't want to piss off the B&M stores.

      Also, 90% of the games I buy through Steam are weekend deals, where you can find new releases for maybe 30% off. Impulse is the same, I just bought the new Red Faction game for $15.

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    12. Re:And the hardware? by lukas84 · · Score: 1, Troll

      I can get next-day shipping from several big online shops here. They have plenty of stock, too.

      Whenever i go to a brick and mortar store, they usually sell outdated stuff (e.G. i needed a new graphics card, and was looking for a GT210 or something like that. the brick and mortar star only sold 8xxx Nvidia cards). I ordered it online, even though i actually was in three stores - none of them had any GT210.

    13. Re:And the hardware? by sopssa · · Score: 2, Informative

      Games are computer software, and usually you pay for a license with them too (be it Photoshop, Windows or Visual Studio). Just because they're entertainment it doesn't change the fact.

    14. Re:And the hardware? by Zey · · Score: 0, Troll
      Opportunist (166417) wrote:

      And then I want to deal with a store that will give me immediately a replacement instead of sending it in and waiting 3-4 weeks 'til they get a replacement from their distributor.

      Dunno about the US, but, in Australia the big stores are the most likely to have enough rolling stock on hand that they're able to pull a replacement item from stock — and then they'll chase up the warranty replacement paperwork themselves.

      Being a big client with large recurring orders, the manufacturers and the big company have a business relationship to maintain so they don't stuff each other around. So they're happy, and they keep the customer happy. They see it as part of customer service.

    15. Re:And the hardware? by Vaphell · · Score: 1

      well, i can't run them on linux either, system requirements are usually on the box and nobody expects it to work flawlessly with newer OS versions. It doesn't mean i can't have 1 partition with old xp or use VM/dosbox/emulators. CD protection problems can be easily solved with gamecopyworld.com.
      What is 100% sure is that without unrestricted internet access i am unable to 1.install 2.play digitally distributed and authorized game - offline mode somewhat helps, but you have think of it and prepare in advance, you can't just find long forgotten title on your hdd and run it by doubleclicking .exe while on train.
      gog.com is ok, they don't attach any DRM to their titles so you can backup/move their titles around freely. They offer convenience but don't restrict usage.

    16. Re:And the hardware? by Vaphell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      it's an entirely artificial distinction and it's bullshit. I know it is in the law but it should be straightened up. I guess we just love to have overly complex laws to screw us from behind
      Music, movies, books and software share similar model - pay a lot in advance, product supply is unlimited and copyright is supporting the business model to recoup the initial investment. Hell, movie dvds shine exactly like game dvds. Why the games are allowed to play by the different set of rules?
      If one day MPAA started to put some EULA like bullshit into the dvd movie releases Joe Average would just think they are fucking insane, ignore it entirely and continue to do his thing... yet game publishers have such privileges and nobody questions it.

    17. Re:And the hardware? by N0Man74 · · Score: 0

      The hardware doesn't matter. The profit margin on the actual consoles is slim. Games (and sometimes accessories) is where the actual profit is. The big name game retailers now make most of their profit off used sales (which does include hardware as well, but is mostly software). They have to adapt or die, really.

      Most consumers don't seem to value First Sale Doctrine... yet.

    18. Re:And the hardware? by N0Man74 · · Score: 0

      The hardware doesn't matter. The profit margin on the actual consoles is slim. The big name game retailers make most of their profit off of games, and especially used games. They have to adapt or die, really.

      Sadly, most consumers don't seem to value First Sale Doctrine... yet.

    19. Re:And the hardware? by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

      Actually, the DII:LOD keys I got from there were banned pretty quickly. Maybe I was just unlucky, but I'm guessing they sold the same keys to a bunch of people...

    20. Re:And the hardware? by N0Man74 · · Score: 0

      Bah... I mean to edit and fix my post and accidentally doublepost...
      I'm a noob.

    21. Re:And the hardware? by shentino · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can download hardware, sorta:

      Project64
      Dolphin
      GnuBoy
      ZSNES
      Gens

    22. Re:And the hardware? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't the GT 210/220 a piece of shit? The 9600 GT is a halfway decent budget card, a good stop-gap until the reasonably-priced GT300 cards come out next year.

    23. Re:And the hardware? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1, Informative

      Newegg dude. I have never had a bit of trouble from them when it come to RMAs, it was all 'we're so sorry about that and it will be right out" and never took more than 5 days total turnaround. I've even had them call me to tell me that an item I RMA'd was out of stock, so would I like the next lower model and a refund for the difference, just get a full refund and get something else, or to put a couple of more bucks on the CC and get the next higher? Hell when my bank screwed up the card I placed my Windows 7 preorder on they even apologized for that (which most definitely wasn't their fault) and gave me the same $50 price even though that promo has been over for months.

      So if you are talking consoles, yeah i can see hitting Gamestop or another one of those specialty stores. I myself go in there every couple of months to browse through their little PC section for bargains. But for just about everything to do with the PC I hit Newegg, as the service is just top notch.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    24. Re:And the hardware? by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      You actually get more when buying the game online.

      Only if you consider convenience and social bullshit as the most important factors. There are those oldschool values like true ownership not rental, freedom to use stuff you paid for as you please - and they are important to some people.

      The problem is, soon enough you won't "own" your physical copies anymore either.

      All Valve games - even the retail copies - require a Steam account and Internet access (unless you buy it for a console).

      Developers are moving more and more to an "online activation before you can even play the damn game" system. Sure there will be cracks to get around this - there always will be. And the developer will release a new game update that breaks the crack, and 2 days later a new crack will be out, repeat ad infinitum.

      The more things change...

    25. Re:And the hardware? by Draek · · Score: 1

      you pay 10k for the books, audio CDs or movie DVDs?!? really? They are copyright encumbered but you are the de facto owner of the copy you purchased, why on earth it should be different with games?

      So you get ownership over a shiny disc. What does that buy you? having your license ownership invariably tied to your particular copy of the contents you're licensed to, which means you get an easier time reselling it, with the downside that you have to take care of that copy otherwise you'll have to purchase a new one. Not exactly a world-breaking advantage, is it?

      No, its not different with games than with movies or music. Thing is, you don't get any special rights by buying *those* in retail either, you still can't make copies for your friends, you still can't play them on your restaurant, store or amateur radio, and so on.

      If you really, *really* cared about your freedom to use the products as you see fit, you shouldn't be arguing for retail copies, you should be arguing for Open Source and Creative Commons licenses instead. With those at least you do get something in return other than a shiny disc.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    26. Re:And the hardware? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Actually you have to be very careful about that. In most regions post purchase agreement are null and void, so unless the full conditions of licence on on the outside of the box, the the licence conditions for games are identical to all other copyrighted content, you own your copy for the life of copyright. All that rest of the conditions like EULA are simply a marketing lie and a legal bluff except of course for a very few blatantly corrupt constituencies.

      The reason of comes games publishers are further ahead on digital distribution is of course games consoles (and the motivation to escape those licence fees), a better understanding of DRM and how it can be used to analyse and control the end users computer, check competing games, disable unlicensed content, prevent copying, disable undesirable software and devices, summarily alter conditions of contract and of course drop in adds when they believe they have sufficient lock in to get away with it. Now just because it is a game it doesn't stop them from also stretching their DRM into internet access and email monitoring for manipulative marketing purpose only of course.

      It is most likely better for everyone if some hard legislation starts coming out to curb invasive and abusive practices before they get out of hand. As for me, after a trail of steam, once bitten forever shy, I'll stick to buying hard copy at a discount store. Publishers simply can not be trusted with that kind of access to private devices.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    27. Re:And the hardware? by Idolminds · · Score: 0, Troll

      They would love to offer the games for cheap on Steam, but the game publishers don't want to piss off the B&M stores.

      I'm sure they are crying their eyes out that they *have* to charge people more money for something that nets them higher profit margins.

    28. Re:And the hardware? by Tukz · · Score: 0, Troll

      You didn't think of the possibility that they'd sell far more, if they lowered the prices?
      Most of my friends only buy from Steam doing weekend sales, same as poster above you it seems.

      If all digital sales on steam, were lowered by say, 30%, I think you'd see an increased sale.
      Not only in numbers, but also net gain.

      --
      - Don't do what I do, it's probably not healthy nor safe. -
    29. Re:And the hardware? by KDR_11k · · Score: 0, Troll

      A specialized store will probably have it, or at the very least know immediately where to get it within 2 days. A big store using computers as a sideline, additional income will only offer you what's mainstream and most of the time won't bother with special orders at all.

      Maybe for computer components but not for videogame consoles. The specialized stores (GameStop) have their local stock and that's it, if they run out you'll have to wait for the next regular shipment and if there won't be one, hey, we've got some used games you might want instead?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    30. Re:And the hardware? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I find store purchases more convenient most of the time, they're faster and retailers tend to discount stock or simply have better deals (I've seen plenty of Steam specials for games that could be had for a tenner off the Pyramid, the Steam discounted version actually cost more in many cases). Reinstalling from a DVD is orders of magnitude faster than redownloading a 9GB game you deleted. You can get the Steam overlay in any game just by linking the executable in your Steam game list BTW.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    31. Re:And the hardware? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      They probably do because customers would be way more likely to shop at Steam if it offered cheaper prices right away and more sales would more than make up for the slightly lower profit per sale.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    32. Re:And the hardware? by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      What do you guys think about the ethics of pirating a PC game if you've paid for the console version? (Regardless of what the law might say about it)

    33. Re:And the hardware? by Zero_DgZ · · Score: 1

      Nail, hammer, head.

      There's always going to be gaming hardware to buy. Not just consoles, but controllers, cables, adapters, cases, accessories, and repair parts.

      Also, download distribution faces the Christmas Conundrum. It's a lot more impactful for a parent to give their kid a boxed copy of Game X instead of a point card they can use to download Game X from Download Service Y.

      Plus, there are diehard collector dorks like me who like to have a shelf full of our games rather than a hard drive, memory card, or flash disk that doesn't look nearly as nice. (I guess it's the same reason people fill bookshelves with back issues of National Geographic that they'll never read again.)

      I think there will always be a place for physical game media even if the only purpose of that media is to install on your device the same way a download would. Piracy will be a non-issue, really... Just look at how much piracy Steam is stamping out for Valve's games. (Hint: None. There are cracked installs, cracked updates, and hacked servers to play them on, all available for free at a Bittorrent hub near you.)

  2. Why are there still game retailers? by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Record stores are dead. Video rental stores other than a few major chains are dead. Why should game stores stick around? The only one near me is a tiny one next to a Cartridge World (ink, not ammo).

    The A titles may still justify some shelf space at WalMart, but I don't see any remaining need for standalone game stores.

    1. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Two words: used games. You can't sell a digitally downloaded game back after you've played it. A game store will take a box title back. Though I guess if there were digital download rentals that would put another nail in the coffin.

    2. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by eric-x · · Score: 1

      Because there are still people buying offline? And the remaining offline retailers get more and more customers as everyone else stops putting games on the shelf.

    3. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by sopssa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's probably some people, but most also don't care about it. For me it seems just a lot of work to get something like $10 back from it (and then you really lose the value you spend for buying the game because you dont have it anymore).

    4. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Preorder bonuses. Every big game these days has an in-game bonus for preordering at a brick and mortar (usually Gamestop, but can also include Best Buy and others). I'm NOT a fan of this practice, and it's getting ridiculous. I mean, the new Army of Two is offering an exclusive multiplayer mode for preordering from Gamestop!

      I don't understand why anyone puts up with this. Being forced to pony up the cash to a specific retailer before the game launches just to get full functionality is just asinine.

    5. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Exactly, and you can always see large walls of games, tons of albums and movies in large stores. I'm not from USA and I dont really buy from them myself because I enjoy just getting them online, but when I go buy hardware or something else, there's always lots of people there. Other thing is that there's actually many different gamestore chains now, which wasn't true pre-2000.

    6. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by sopssa · · Score: 1

      To be fair that's also true for online preorders. Some games you get lets say $10 off if you preorder, some games (especially the ones with multiplayer) give you exclusive items if you preorder. It's not just Gamestop and physical stores.

    7. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Ifandbut · · Score: 4, Interesting

      1) If I lose internet one day and I want to play a random game I have it is alot easier to install it with an actual disk (however some DRM is making this moot).

      2) If I move and have to go back to 1.5Mb internet connection then it will be faster to install from a disk then patch online instead of downloading the whole game.

      3) For some games the manual is extremely valuable (NWN, KOTOR, even WoW for the lore) and it is easier for me to thumb through a hard copy instead of a PDF.

      4) This may make me appear old fashion but I still like a physical version of the product.

    8. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by sopssa · · Score: 1

      For 1) and 2), for example Steam allows you backup or copy the game data to DVD's. Yeah it's an extra step, but it's possible if you need it. Many don't. And yes, games from Steam also work in offline mode.

      What comes to physical version of product, I agree it's nice to have something on the wall even if its just for the hell of it and for looks. But it's not really more physical than that, and actually just downloading the game online is more failsafe than having DVD that can break or get scratches.

    9. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fair warning: I manage a Cartridge World.

      That's the natural evolution of things. Cartridge world provides a physical consumable. Until Star Trek style replicators come into play, there will be need for companies who provide a physical product.

      Now that we've got the capacity to transfer information across our ever widening pipes, the old school rental establishments are bound for extinction.

    10. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a very new thing that just came about in the past year or so. I can remember a time when pre-orders meant you actually got your copy on release day and not some pansy discount.

    11. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Narpak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Personally I believe that digital distribution will continue to grown. I have a 12mb internet line that is very affordable and have no qualms about buying games through steam or other such services (though predominantly I use steam). The games I have bought is in a nice list that makes me able to reinstall at a whim. Nothing being able to resell my games isn't really an issue for me since I didn't use to do that before anyway; however I can see how those that do that regularly could see this change in distribution method as a bad thing. Though I believe that for good or bad it is a change that is inevitable, if nothing else it will reduce resource consumption to a certain degree by eliminating a part of the packaging and shipping associated with traditional distribution.

      These events have lead to many shops relying on the sale of entertainment distribution in various forms to close their doors, and will probably continue to do so. While this is no doubt a tragedy for those either making a living in that sector, or enjoy frequenting such establishments, it is inevitable fallout from our technological advance. It is not the first, nor the last I assume, time such a thing has happened.

    12. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      Because some of us (me included) will give up our game boxes only when you pry them from our cold, dead fingers. For me, buying the shiny new package, opening it up, and looking through the manual is part of the experience, and digital downloads can never replace it. Digital downloads are OK, but they'll always be inferior to a physical product for many of us.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    13. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Blue+Stone · · Score: 2, Informative

      >Why should game stores stick around?

      Well with the European Parliament being bought off by the large music and movie cartels, such that somone who is caught downloading a few dodgy torrents is kicked off the internet, and can no longer spend ANY money online, I'd say all those bricks & mortar distribution points may well see a resurgence in use!

      Nice to see those large monopolistic bastards and their political bitches doing something for the little people, no?

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    14. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just think it's ridiculous that France would even consider such fascist ways, let alone make them law. Makes you wonder what the current order is: fascist or capitalist?

    15. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      I buy the disc for the shelf and the physical security, as I too am old school like that. I rip an ISO of it to my storage server and install from there. The holy grail though is something like Unreal Tournament 3 or Counterstrike: I have the game on my shelf in physical form and rip ISOs on my server, but the key goes directly into Steam and I can add it to my account there.

    16. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 1

      "even WoW for the lore"

      Unless you got the CE, WoW's book was pretty much "Check the website for information."

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    17. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      Preorder bonuses. Every big game these days has an in-game bonus for preordering at a brick and mortar (usually Gamestop, but can also include Best Buy and others).

      That's a contrivance though. There's nothing that inherently ties such bonuses to bricks and mortar retailers, and it could easily be switched to another distribution channel. I suspect it's being done as a sop to keep such retailers on side, because it's in the publishers interests to do so- at present.

      But I'm pretty sure that this will only be done as long such retailers are still necessary to the publishers, while people are migrating to online downloads. After a certain point, they won't be as important, and since online distribution is ultimately more favourable to publishers, they'll either discontinue such bonuses or switch them to attract the remaining few buyers to online distribution.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    18. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Vaphell · · Score: 1

      fascist of course, that's what marriage of the state and big business is.

    19. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by tenZygzak · · Score: 1

      Fair warning: I manage a Cartridge World.

      That's the natural evolution of things. Cartridge world provides a physical consumable. Until Star Trek style replicators come into play, there will be need for companies who provide a physical product.

      For cartridges, rather until there will be need for printed piece of paper. Less and less.

    20. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      You can rent games from GameFly and it's cheaper than buying-then-reselling them. If that's what you're looking for, your needs are already taken care of.

    21. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because some of LIKE owning the media on a physical form of distribution. Some people like a shelf of books, others like a shelf of game boxes. I like both, therefore I will continue to buy both.

    22. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by bertoelcon · · Score: 1

      That's probably some people, but most also don't care about it. For me it seems just a lot of work to get something like $10 back from it (and then you really lose the value you spend for buying the game because you dont have it anymore).

      You can buy them used too and its cheaper than new.

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    23. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      My vanilla wow copies came with a bigger manual for a PC game then ive seen in years! Last game i can remember with such an extensive manual was falcon 4.0

      --
      Good-bye
    24. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by shovas · · Score: 1

      ..one next to a Cartridge World (ink, not ammo).

      Aw come on, my first guess was a cartridge "games" stores. :D

      --
      Selah.ca. Pause, and calmly think on that.
    25. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      Maybe in the US, but here in Europe, all those types of stores are still going strong.

    26. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      I see what you're saying, but I think it's very important to correct your parenthetical clause. If you really lose the value of a game when you sell it, then if you just toss it in the trash instead, you would have somehow lost more than 100% of the value. Even by your definition of lose, selling something used at less than what you paid for it still means at least you didn't lose as much. More, the total value you got out of owning something was really the sum of what you sold it for and the utility value it gave you while you owned it, and presumably, that was a good deal on average or the price of new games would drop.
              If the decision to sell was what economists call a rational market transaction on your side, then you looked at how much value you would get out of keeping the game and playing it some more, and sold it because you decided what the used game store offered was more than that remaining play value. That's all you are comparing, not the value you once paid. Thinking the full original value somehow needs to be taken into account again, is like thinking you have lost something because a game you bought the day it came out shows up at discount six months later at Wally World, and so becomes a game which is no longer new and hot and so people wouldn't pay as much for a brand new copy still in the shrink-wrap any more. It's irrelevant to your real situation. It doesn't change what you have gained or lost.
              Sorry to be a bit strident about this, but what you are claiming falls in the general class of 'broken window' models of economics. Those are economic fallacies which collectively do an incredible lot of harm, and getting people thinking about when they are falling for one is probably all to the good.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    27. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of industries moving to rental related models. So many people make monthly payments for rent, utilities, cable TV, Internet access, land-line and cell phones, online games, and the list goes on.
              The law (in the US and Britain at least), generally recognises more rights for an actual owner than a renter. A man's home is only his castle if he owns it. Even in places where the landlord can't simply walk in unannounced, the law tends to be strongly biased in favor of the actual property owner over the renter. Plus, it's far from everywhere that tenants have any written rights under law.
              Having dealt with rental agreements for serious property a few times suggests to me that even a trivial sort of rental style agreement tends to be written to favor the other guy, and just making a habit of avoiding as many as possible is a sensible precaution.
              I'm not saying I would never use Steam or play WoW, but I have a little thing called right of first sale protecting me if I want to sell my old copy of Diablo 2 to someone. Maybe that won't ever really matter, but it seems like saying "That's OK, I'll never want that legal right anyway." is something to think about carefully. And the default should be "I want to keep all my rights, not just the ones I think I'll need.".

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    28. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should game stores stick around? The only one near me is a tiny one next to a Cartridge World (ink, not ammo).

      I am sure I am not he only one who thinks of my old C64 when I hear about games and cartridges together

    29. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by Ifandbut · · Score: 1

      Even the 20 pages + credits manual that came with WotLK expansion has alot of lore for its size.

      The story so far covering the Burning Crusade expansion and patches.

      A prologue telling the Lich King's origins.

      Death Knight lore and class information.

      I cant find my vanilla WoW manual atm (in a box somewhere) but I remembering that thing being easy 50+ pages with history from at least WC3 and race/class history.

    30. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by dazaris · · Score: 1

      It's nice to have a tangible product to go with your purchase, but it seems that most games are tending to go towards the console standard of a single disc and paper thin manual in a tiny DVD case. When that's the case there's very little incentive to pay the extra amount of money as well as take time out of your day to drive to the store (When you don't live in a city center).

      I don't see digital distribution replacing the corner store in the near future though. Consoles will ensure that (until they get a widely used and reliable form of digital distribution for big name titles), as will the games you can't purchase off steam or similar services.

    31. Re:Why are there still game retailers? by DocHoncho · · Score: 1

      that's ok old man, you just keep your manuals, shiny boxes and shrinkwrap and don't go getting all excited. the rest of us will enjoy our digital downloads and leave you alone in your nostalgic stupor. shhhh, easy now. you know what the doctor said about getting all riled up.

      --
      Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
  3. If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...I'm not buying.

    The Digital download would have to really, really cheap (less than $10) to make it worthwhile for me to participate in this new economy. Why 10? Because oftentimes I buy a game on DVD for $20, play it, and then sell it used for $10-15, so my actual out-of-pocket cost for most games is less than $10 overall.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by zippthorne · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Where are you buying games for only $20? And how are you managing to get $10 for them used?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Xamindar · · Score: 1

      Exactly, I find it really really hard to buy anything off the PSN as I know I will never be able to resell it when I don't want it any more. If they start offering "$60" games on there for anything more than $20 then forget it.

    3. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      PS2/3 Greatest Hits DVDs only cost $20. Or less. For example I got Kingdom Hearts 2 this past spring for $18. Now come Thanksgiving I can sell it on ebay as a "like new" game for about $15.

      In some cases if you hang onto a game long enough it will actually increase in value. Like Mario Sunshine which I was able to acquire it for $20 three years ago (Nintendo Player's Choice), and then sell it for $70 on Ebay last Christmas due to its rarity. Same applies to my copy of Final Fantasy 7, which I could make a similar profit it I chose to sell it.

      Anyway you can sell most games for more than $10 easily.
      And buying games for $20 is just a matter of waiting for the pricedrop.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you wait about a year or so, or sometimes longer, depending, games come down in price. Buying immediately at full retail when they're released is foolish unless you've got a ton of disposable cash.

      As an example, when Half-Life 2 first came out, I waited, because my PC's hardware wouldn't have been up to running it, and I didn't want to spend $1000 or so just to upgrade to a new box so I could play one game. Within about two years, I built a PC that exceeded the high end specs from back then, for about $400, and took advantage of a deal where I got the Platinum Edition of HL2 for $5 on clearance at Best Buy.

      I generally buy games "behind the curve", after they've come down in price, and after enough time for the hype to wear off, and for it to become common knowledge whether the game is actually that awesome or not.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    5. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by PhrstBrn · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Some people value their time more than others.

      I usually look at the deals on Steam and Impulse, and buy something if it looks interesting.

      Usually I can pickup a game for $5-20 (at 33%-75% off normal price) and I usually get my money's worth. I'm not "losing" that $5-20 of value because I can't resell it, because

      • I can play the game again, and you can't
      • It's not worth my time to try to sell it on E-bay. In fact, I see that as a huge waste of my time for a measly $10. I'd rather be doing something else.

      I rarely buy anything at full ($50) price. It will be on sale (or drop to the $20 price range) eventually.

    6. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by vivaelamor · · Score: 1

      Because oftentimes I buy a game on DVD for $20, play it, and then sell it used for $10-15, so my actual out-of-pocket cost for most games is less than $10 overall.

      Allow me to be the first to say.... THIEF!!!!!!!

    7. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Opportunist · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I used to think that way too until I stopped a moment to consider:

      I pay about 60 bucks for a game. I can sell it used after a week for about 30-40, after a month for less than 20. After that the price drops to about 10 bucks and stays there. In a nutshell, that would mean that I rent the game for 30 bucks for the first week and for another 10-20 for another 3 weeks. And a game that's worth renting it for 30 bucks for a week is worth keeping.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Sir_Sri · · Score: 0

      And you may find yourself not playing many games in future. In fact your model is almost exactly the sort of thing that is going to drive a much faster shift to digital distribution. On a full price retail game (60 +10 for console tax) a developer+publisher combo gets maybe 30 bucks. Digital dstro it's closer to 50. Used games. They get nothing.

      If you want new games to be made, the people making them need money. And they see, rightly or wrongly, used and bargain bin sales as bad for their bottom line. They're going to start doing everything they can to bind your game to your e-mail address. No resale, no piracy, less people playing but hopefully more revenue.

      If you want to buy games the way you describe, they're aren't inclined to keep selling to you.

    9. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 1

      PS2 games? Of course they're cheap. They're from 2001. We're talking games from 2004 and up.

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    10. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Thief trilogy still costs about $30--but not a bad deal for all that really good gameplay.

    11. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by sopssa · · Score: 1

      That's ok if staying behind doesn't bother you. But knowing you're playing a few years old games while others play the shiny, great new ones would bother me and probably many more people. You also couldn't talk about them or read on slashdot and other sites, and with mmo's and multiplayer games most of people would already be in high-level areas or many players left the game already, and you dont get the same fun.

    12. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's totally fine by me. I depend on people like that to stock shelves in used game stores with stuff they bought and don't want anymore. I'm more of a collector, and don't generally sell off anything I own, unless I have more than one of it. A lot of people buy a game, play it until they beat it or are bored with it, and then sell it. Some people really want to be the first to play a new game, and enjoy being the one in their group of friends who has all the insider knowledge, and who has gotten there first -- it gives them a certain social status as an alpha geek.

      Once you have a house payment and a car payment, and you want to sock all extra money you possibly can away for retirement, buying new seems a lot less appealing. And I'd rather not waste my time and money on stuff the industry over-hypes, over-markets, and fails to develop and deliver fully on the promises that their hype machines make. I got sick of the fanboi mentality years ago, and quit buying things as soon as they came out, only to discover that they weren't anywhere near as fun as I'd been lead to believe by the marketing machine, and reviews weren't any help either. And waiting for months and years for some game to come out. It's a lot better for me to cherry pick A titles at bargain bin prices long after the hype of new has worn off them.

      And trust me, they're still as fun to play. Pac Man and Asteroids are still a blast to play. New isn't what makes it fun for me. If I ignore for the most part what's happening in the current generation, I can act like it's cutting edge even though the game is really 5-6 years old.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    13. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Vaphell · · Score: 1

      lol, i recently bought mine for ~$4 in a retail store (-50%, its standard price was about $8 :))
      In Poland we have a strong market of classic games (and if i am not mistaken gog.com is 'our invention'). Every remotely successful game returns in cheaper re-releases (full blown version at a release -> modest one 1-2 years later -> cheap-ass standalones or as a part of some classic collection). Also i possess a brand new 'RPG legends' pack consisting of Baldur's Gate 1/2+addons, Icewind Dale 1/2+addons, Planescape Torment and Lionheart for less than $25.
      I now stockpile legendary games i used to play long time ago or skipped entirely for whatever reason. I am not sure if i have time to play them all, but i don't feel any need to try the shiniest stuff the game industry has to offer nowadays.

    14. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      Why don't you just rent through Gamefly or something if you're going to sell it?

    15. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      Kingdom Hearts 2, a PS2 game, came out in 2006. The games for the system were still sold and developed up until 2007.

    16. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they'll go from getting the occasional few bucks from people like me to absolutely $0. Maybe people don't realize this, but there are literally tens of thousands of games that have been released over the past 30 years or so for numerous platforms. Out of these, there are enough excellent titles to last anybody their entire life.

      Foregoing any new games is no great loss. In fact, it would save me even more money since I would not have to upgrade my computer to play newer games.

    17. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      The games for the system were still sold and developed up until 2007.

      Make that 2009, there are still new games coming out for it, the PS2 just won't die

    18. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by iiiears · · Score: 1

      The audience for games is growing and at the same time gamers expect more in a game. It's obvious that game companies are searching for ways to increase their revenue when gamers can be very selective. I wonder how long it will be before more companies use the bittorrent protocol to distribute demos. Titles that aren't already a franchise or missed unusually high expectations might get a second chance by offering a second release with modifiable content and no disk check and multiplayer not bound to a central server. Game companies are leaving a few dollars on the table by not repackaging their old titles a third time for digital sale on their own. This seems to me an excellent way to introduce new games. They would have control over what is presented and not rely on a third party. Like so much of the web visitors mean dollars if they can be sold "up" to the newest products. Finally, as someone previously mentioned a select few titles have battled the market and won proof being the high price commanded even a decade later. Many are orphaned by their original developers but rights to them would likely be inexpensive. In other words how much money is Valve making on a game like the original Half-Life and are there other games now abandoned that can realise sales?

      --
      15TW = 15,000 Nuclear Reactors. (Approx. one accident a month.)
    19. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      Downloadable games are mostly very cheap. If my past self from five years ago were able to see the kind of selection and value you could get on Steam, Wiiware, Xbox live and PSN store, I'd be amazed.

      If you boycott downloads, then you're already missing out on some of the most innovative and best games in recent years.

    20. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by carou · · Score: 3, Funny

      I generally buy games "behind the curve", after they've come down in price, and after enough time for the hype to wear off, and for it to become common knowledge whether the game is actually that awesome or not.

      Oblig xkcd.

      The cake may or not be a lie! (I wouldn't want to spoil the ending for you).

    21. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Reread what I wrote. PS2 *and* PS3 games can be had for $20 as part of Sony's Greatest Hits portfolio.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    22. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      smt series games like persona and devil summoner had releases last christmas and march.

    23. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      well that's part of the trick; to extend the tail on the price curve. A lot of old games have found life on good old games 'gog.com'. But those still are owned by someone and they're just extracting whatever value they can (or in the case of interplay games trying to make a lifeline to keep the company afloat).

      I'm not sure bit torrent has anything to do with it. Nowdays the game to be played is to not do a demo until well after the initial sales spike is gone. How you distribute the demo is somewhat immaterial. There is a lot to be said for 'freeing' previous version of a series or old products, to build a base for the new one. But now that they see a revenue model they're probably not inclined to open them up too much.

    24. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Ya but for how many years? If you didn't want to buy a dvd drive for some moral reason you could keep playing CD released games for a while but you'd be hard pressed today. Besides, if they get nothing from you, but the price drop that right now is very extreme smooths out and they, the people who make the games, get a lot more per sale they are still better off. Like I say, you aren't the business they're looking for.

    25. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>knowing you're playing a few years old games while others play the shiny, great new ones would bother me

      So if I invite you over to play my 20+ years old Atari, Commodore, and Super Nintendo collection, you won't be RSVPing? Alright. I'll just enjoy these fine games alone. (Point- I think your view is silly. A game is just as fun whether it was released this year or years ago. Classics don't age.)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    26. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>a measly $10.

      You say you value your time, but you forget money IS time. My combined ebay/amazon sales last year (not just games but also books & hardware) were over $3000 - or about 150 hours/4 weeks worth of labor on the job.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    27. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>I used to think that way too until I stopped a moment to consider: I pay about 60 bucks for a game. I can sell it used after a week for about 30-40, after a month for less than 20.
      >>>

      Apparently you should spend a few more moments "considering" because rather than pay 60 bucks you could just wait 1-2 months and pay 20, same as I do.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    28. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>And you may find yourself not playing many games in future.

      No great loss. With the vast collection of games I have acquired since 1977 to the present (Atari SNES Commodore PS1/2 and the Wii), I don't need to buy any future games. I have enough to last me the rest of my life.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    29. Re:If I can't sell if used on Ebay... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      We were talking about buying it, playing it, then selling it back. Which is, as you point out, only feasible if you buy it right when it's released. Else, why bother buying it for 30 bucks used after a month if you can buy it new for that amount by then?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. I'll pass on Digital Game Downloads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I prefer to use my bandwidth for Porn. I was taught not to waste sacred resources, 99% of my bandwidth must be used for porn related activities and the rest for /.

  5. One thing though by dagamer34 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Digital downloads need to be loads cheaper because of the following reasons. They can't be: 1) Borrowed 2) Rented 3) Returned which means that if someone wants to buy a game, they have to get it straight from the publisher. Plus, our broadband infrastructure isn't really equipped to download GBs of data as the primary way of purchasing games. And then you have to factor in the cost of bandwidth that we'll probably pay for in one way or another and you begin to see that the real benefits are only for the publisher and not for consumers. I'll stick with discs, thank you very much!

    1. Re:One thing though by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>our broadband infrastructure isn't really equipped to download GBs of data as the primary way of purchasing games.

      That's for sure. Verizon DSL recently had a "free week" of downloadable games. While most of them were reasonable in size, when I downloaded Tomb Raider Legend it took all night, plus a big chunk of the morning until I was finally able to play it.

      Plus Verizon's player has a rather stupid design. You can't play games and download in the background. You have to just sit and wait. :-( Haven't they ever heard of multitasking? Even my ancient 1985 Amiga lets me play games and download at the same time.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    2. Re:One thing though by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      The resale angle is significant, and reduces the actual value of the item quite a bit. Returning is not as big a deal for CC users, as you can always tell them to give you your money back, or you'll have the CC company do it for you. It's a pain, but how many have you actually returned for legitimate reasons?

      I think the bandwidth is there. Of course, that's based on my own experience and is totally anecdotal. Unless you need it immediately, a couple of gigs is easily downloaded in a afternoon or less using a lowly 3Mb DSL connection (which is what I have). Yes, there are still people out there on 768 and (gasp) dialup. The former is an overnight download, the latter is why physical CD/DVD versions are still sold on Amazon. I live in a college town, and one would expect to see some pretty big slow downs on the net during high traffic periods, but I seem to be able to max my connection pretty much any time of the day from places with big pipes (easynews, for example).

      Besides, if you listen to the content creators, the pirates are already downloading 2-3 titles for every one sold. Going to an all digital distribution is a drop in the bucket. :-)

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    3. Re:One thing though by Narpak · · Score: 4, Informative

      I have a 12mb line and always seem to get a nice 1.2mb/s download rate from Steam. Also I find using Steam for the majority of my computer game purchases very handy, I can buy it from home, set it to install (and it does relatively quickly with my line), have it automatically update to the latest patch, and during those rare moments when I lose my DSL connection (happened twice last year, both lasting about two days) I can set it in offline mode and continue enjoying my games. Visiting my parents I installed steam, logged on my account, installed one of my smaller games (their computer is getting on in years), played it until I left and un-installed. Everything worked without no fuss. Considering that, for me, a computer game only have a few years (at best) expiration date this system suits me fine; and it is so convenient that I now buy more games than I did the years before I started using steam.

    4. Re:One thing though by kramerd · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      An afternoon or less?

      Wow, how convenient, compared to going to a store and buying it, which takes as much as 30 minutes round trip.

    5. Re:One thing though by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      Plus, our broadband infrastructure isn't really equipped to download GBs of data as the primary way of purchasing games.

      My ISP is. 200GB/mo for $30!

      I've started buying everything online.

    6. Re:One thing though by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      While a bit of an issue with older games, it's not really all that much of a problem when purchasing a new game. Often times the service will allow you to download a large portion of the game before that actual release date and then it will activate the game on the day of the release and allow you to play. A company could take preorders and start pushing out a decent portion of the game (i.e. the art assets or audio files.) that is stable in advance of the rest of the game. Of course today that's not a problem as there's usually a several week period between the game going gold and enough copies being pressed to disc for retailers to sell at brick and mortar stores.

      When I used to play World of Warcraft Blizzard would allow users to begin downloading parts of an upcoming patch a week or so before the actual release. Usually 90% or more of the file could be downloaded in advance as it contained textures or other information that was unlikely to change. The last 10% was probably unfinished assets or code that was still being worked on to iron out all of the bugs. On the actual patch day anyone who had been downloading the patch in advance only needed to get a few additional MB of data which wouldn't take long instead of a large 200 MB (Some of the content patches were quite large.) file that might take hours, especially if everyone were trying to download it at the same time.

      If you have slower internet, just start the download before going to work or going to bed at night.

    7. Re:One thing though by Turiko · · Score: 1

      a lot of country still have bandwidth limits. I for example have €30 GB/month, and if i want extra i have to pay €1/GB. How is it economic to people with a connection like me? First i pay €60 for a game (a lot of games on steam still have that price), then i lose €6-€12 worth of bandwidth.

    8. Re:One thing though by Gothic_Walrus · · Score: 1

      Digital downloads need to be loads cheaper because of the following reasons.

      Sadly, they won't be. The PSPgo is a good indication of this - Sony's charging just as much for digital downloads as you'd pay for a physical copy, because they're afraid of undercutting retailers who they think they need to sell the device in the first place. Another example is Microsoft's Games on Demand feature. It may be slightly more convenient, but I'm not sure I want to pay $30 for a two year old title, or $20 for a game I can get used at GameStop for $5.

      As long as the console companies are relying on retail outlets to move consoles, we won't see the prices of digital games fall.

      --
      Goo goo g'joob.
  6. NO!NO!NO! by XPeter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Uggh. I've had some HORRIBLE experiences with digital distribution for games (EA Download Manager, Steam).

    Give me a hard copy over digital any day.

    --
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    1. Re:NO!NO!NO! by sopssa · · Score: 0, Troll

      Of course you conveniently left the experiences off your post. Steam has been working great for years, and I've pretty much started buying everything from it because it's so convenient.

    2. Re:NO!NO!NO! by MetalPhalanx · · Score: 4, Informative

      The tl;dr version: Steam Support can really suck and that is the reason that many people hate it. See below for an example.

      In my experience, there are three camps for Steam. Those rabidly against it due to the rights management, those who love it, and those who have had an experience with Steam "Support" and now loathe it. I'll give personal experience as an (anecdotal) example for you:

      I bought Champions Online off of Steam on Sept. 7th.
      To my dismay, when I attempted to activate my CD key, it was already activated. I called Cryptic for support, and after speaking to a couple of employees, was told that since Steam was my distributor, I needed to contact Steam to get a new CD key. i.e. it was Steam's fault. I submitted a support ticket with the requested information within an hour of buying the game. I received the confirmation email and a ticket number from Steam Support, everything to verify that they actually did receive my support ticket. Researching their average response time, I gleaned a community accepted value of "3 to 5 days".

      Fast forward about 4 weeks (October 9th).
      After weeks of checking, my ticket was closed with no reply. I logged in to check it, and status was set to closed. There was no indication that anyone had even looked at the ticket. I re-opened the ticket, left a polite but firmly displeased message about the quality of the support and restated my request to get this resolved.

      Fast forward another 2 weeks (October 23rd, this past Friday).
      I FINALLY receive my first reply from Steam support. It's a one liner asking me to paste my conversation with Champions Online support into Steam. Since I talked on the phone, I can't do that. I sent a note explaining this, and have yet to receive another message back.

      The situation as it stands now, is that the close group of friends I bought Champions Online to play with spent about 5 weeks intensively playing it, and have since moved on to other games (Our usual schedule for many games). I'm now left paying $50 for a game I never got to play, and by the time their glacial support gets around to solving it, I've lost all desire to play.

      I'm now a wary customer as well. I've been burnt and am now much more reluctant to deal through Steam, with their lack of phone support and awful online support. Given that my friends and I tend to consume at least one new game a month or so, they've lost a pretty regular customer. Due to my experience, some of my friends are also starting to buy games elsewhere as well.

    3. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Dysphoric1 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Steam has been working great for years, and I've pretty much started buying everything from it because it's so convenient.

      Those who would give up essential property rights to purchase a little temporary convenience deserve neither property nor convenience.

    4. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Eevee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Did you pay with a credit card? Chargeback time. Product was defective (bad CD key) and Steam hasn't fixed it.

    5. Re:NO!NO!NO! by sopssa · · Score: 0, Troll

      So you're saying all the people living on rent should be living on street instead?

    6. Re:NO!NO!NO! by gbarules2999 · · Score: 0

      Those who would give up essential property rights to purchase a little temporary convenience deserve neither property nor convenience.

      Your butchering of that Franklin quote does nothing to help your point. Considering that capitalism is based around the idea of allowing the market to drive the way things move, it depends on what the market wants. Who are you, or anyone else, to tell a consumer that what they value is foolish? Obviously the parent values things in a different way than you.

      I'd like to have the option of DD, personally. I hate having physical discs lying around. I'm in the minority, though, and anti-DD gamers seem to be rather loud and annoying about it all, as if giving gamers the option of downloading takes away their property rights or something.

    7. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Ah-ha, and here's rub #2 with Steam. You try that, and watch what they will do in retaliation: They'll suspend your account. All the games you have attached to it will no longer function.

      That's another reason I won't deal with Steam. These guys have you by the balls the whole time, and you will play by their rules. Don't even think about giving Mother any backtalk.

    8. Re:NO!NO!NO! by MetalPhalanx · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you chargeback they suspend your account, removing access to all the games you have ever bought.

      I looked into it and discovered that little gem. It seems almost criminal.

    9. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 3, Informative

      If they do that, report it to the card issuer (VISA/MC) . The card issuers are quite firm about how the people who use their cards are treated. Retaliatory behavior not supported by a court judgement could result in the vendor losing their capability to take credit cards. That's a healthy sized hammer.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    10. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I don't have experience doing a Steam chargeback, but I've heard some stories about entire Steam accounts being frozen due to chargebacks. You may get your money back for that, but you may not have access to the rest of your Steam game.

    11. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Pengo · · Score: 1

      Yup, and I am sure if you were to put a polite notice on your ticket that you WILL be contacting your bank for a chargeback, they will be a bit more responsive.

      Companies like Valve (Steam product) live and die by their chargeback rates. Most companies, if the charge backs are too high, they have to get a high-risk merchant or can lose the merchant altogether. Amex has almost NO chargeback tollerance with vendors, and if they don't cooperate with or fraud timely, they will indeed lose the merchant account. And not with the bank, but get black-balled by Amex or Visa.

      In my experience the threat of charge back is often the best way to get your case escalated quickly up the support tiers.

    12. Re:NO!NO!NO! by CaseM · · Score: 1

      Try this and you'll get your entire account banned. Say goodbye to the rest of those games you bought on that account.

      Love,
      Valve

    13. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Osinoche · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I agree with that sentiment.

      --
      Osi Osi Osi Osi Osi
    14. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Nithendil · · Score: 1

      I am in the 4th camp: I reluctantly use it, due to the price and convenience. I don't care for the DRM, advertising, or lack of resale. DRM I can live with but I much prefer the way Impulse does it (no constant online activation).

    15. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Dysphoric1 · · Score: 0

      Your butchering of that Franklin quote does nothing to help your point

      Considering my only statement WAS the quote, what point exactly are you implying that the quote doesn't help? You clearly have no idea what point I was actually making at all.

      Who are you, or anyone else, to tell a consumer that what they value is foolish? Obviously the parent values things in a different way than you.

      Who are you to tell me that what I value is foolish? Obviously I value different things than you do. Ever heard of hypocrisy?

      as if giving gamers the option of downloading takes away their property rights or something.

      Nowhere did I say I was against downloading. In fact, I am vehemently against the physical production of goods that can be created and distributed digitally. I will NOT buy movies, games, software or music on physical discs and wish for the complete death of manufacturers that produce such environmentally destructive and unnecessary junk.

    16. Re:NO!NO!NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WHOO-EEE that's a humdinger!

  7. Got Steam? by Plekto · · Score: 0

    All this means is that the business model put forth by Steam on March 22, 2002 won.

    I use it and it works great, with nearly a thousand games, sale prices on older games, and the option to either play it off-line in case Steam ever dies(just turn off updates and "keep this game up to date" for every game, then kick it into offline mode) or on, and also whether you want it kept patched or not(one game I have I've modded to a silly degree and so I've got that off).

    It just works and I can get a game in an hour or two most of the time. The only physical games I buy any more are for my son's PS3 because Sony hasn't fully implemented this yet.

    1. Re:Got Steam? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ive been using steam since 2003 and although its had moments of epic failure early on i havent had a complaint against there service for years now.

      My ISP here in Australia now mirrors them so my download of Wolfenstien last night took only about an hour. The price was less than a store would charge and because Steam partners with my ISP the Gb's weren't added to my usage for this month.

      Yes i can never resell the game but as a working full time coder i dont really have time for trading games. Downloading games for me just works.

      Honestly the only reason i go into game stores on the high street now is to look at what games i could buy on stream...

      now time for nazi zombie hunting...

    2. Re:Got Steam? by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      No. It means that people have yet to realize that physical copies = ownership. Digital copies = you're SOL if they decide to ban your account for *insert reason here*.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    3. Re:Got Steam? by Plekto · · Score: 1

      No. It means that people have yet to realize that physical copies = ownership. Digital copies = you're SOL if they decide to ban your account for *insert reason here*.

      ***
      And that was the traditional argument. Apparently the "I don't care, give it to me for less money" crowd has won the fight.

      If you don't like Steam, Direct2Drive also offers almost the exact same software list without any of the idiocy - they give you a serial number and a stand-alone installer. In that way you do "own" it if you decide to burn the installer file to a CD/DVD.

    4. Re:Got Steam? by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Still holds to be true. As the executable is still encrypted in various cases, since they're encrypted not only do you still not own the product but now you're in some cases getting stuck with a special type of DRM. On top of this, that encrypted exe has a tendency to not work with many of the extended scripting engines that are in use with a variety of mods, and parts of the modding community at large. Modders being what they are, are unwilling to break said encryption to give people a chance to use these tools.

      This leaves those people with the same digital downloads in a unique spot. Violate *insert law here* by getting a cracked exe, which may invalidate their license, or lose out on a chance to enjoy various mods.

      As well, in many cases those same copies require special patches, and also require specialized versions of expansions to work properly. It's a fine idea, but the entire premise of digital downloads are flawed when they stop people from enjoying the product they've generally paid for, and in some cases leave them only renting at a whim.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  8. Steam As An Example... by Xin+Jing · · Score: 1, Informative

    I'll use Steam as a good example of digital game distribution because they are very good at it, although have room for functional improvement. Steam is a good thing, but I didn't start out feeling that way. Even now, I have issues with not being able to grandfather (aka register and seamslessly update) in my old retail games that Steam currently offers the same downloadable version of. They have a limited list of retail games you can do this for, but it's not nearly extensive enough. I priced my retail game collection and to replace it all with Steam version of the same games, I would have to spend a couple hundred bucks. There are a number of ways Steam or the original distributor that has a presence on Steam could handle this migration, but it's still disappointing to some degree. An observation I have with Steam is the failure to provide a premium option (ie you pay extra for it) to have Valve burn and mail a physical copy of the game(s) you want, default-configured for off-line play, that is still part of your profile of games.

    On the other hand, I give Steam a huge tip of the hat with regards to being one of the first to stake claim and set up shop on the new digital frontier. It's obvious they are serious about providing a fair service for their downloadable content and return customers are their lifeblood. As a bonus, there's some quality free stuff on their site, so you can download the client for free and play games for free, or load up on "bargin bin" games on the cheap. Plus Valve and their partners are aware that with the new digital download sales model, there's room for hefty discounts and weekend promotions.

    I think the old model of a distributor swallowing up developers to become "in-house talent" like EA or Vivendi or Zenimax is a fading concept. Distributors want to purchase more developers so they have something to sell, because the costs of retail operations and marketing are expensive. With digital distribution, the game distributor doesn't have to tie up it's money with talent acquisition, they just have to create lots of partnerships to promote and sell the games as inexpensively as possible and return maximum revenue to the developers so they can make more games so the cycle can continue - no development employees to lay off, no cost overruns due to protracted development cycles.

    I keep coming back to Valve as a great example, since they offer so many services under one umbrella, but they also are very accomodating to game devs that just want to sell games and make some money while maintaining their independance.

    1. Re:Steam As An Example... by Renraku · · Score: 1

      Steam IS the best example of digital distribution of video games that the world has seen to date. They have a huge selection of games, efficient software, good prices, sales all the time to keep you coming back, and they really do have something for everyone. There are a few horrible problems with it though, which I'll elaborate on.

      1. Bandwidth costs: With many ISPs setting download caps in the USA, a game from Steam can easily run 2-4GB, which is 1-2% of your monthly allowance according to Comcast. Not that much by itself, but if you add in movie downloads, streaming music, streaming movies, etc...

      2. Nonportability: Let's say I have the game on my PC, but I need to format to get rid of a horrible virus. I currently cannot back up the games to DVD or another drive and then reinstall them back when I get done. I have to download them all or play around with Steam to get it to accept the data again. You should be able to back up the install files to different media.

      3. Same price on Steam as in stores: Why would I want to pay $50 for a game on Steam when I can pay $50 for a game at Wal-Mart and have a CD, box, book, etc. With Steam I get to pay extra for my bandwidth and again if I ever need to reinstall.

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    2. Re:Steam As An Example... by TheRecklessWanderer · · Score: 1

      I bought a valve game a while ago from a brick and mortar, and i had to sign up with steam to play the game. Steam wanted all kinds of information. When I reinstalled windows on my PC, I had a hell of a time getting the game to play. Eventually I just gave up and threw the game out. That was the last game I bought that steam is involved with in any shape or form, and I won't buy another one of the same ilk. I just don't like the download business model, I like a DVD of some sort to show that I have actually paid for something.

      --
      Mean what you say...say what you mean.
    3. Re:Steam As An Example... by Xin+Jing · · Score: 1

      Fantastic points! We both agree that the industry leader for gaming digital distribution is Valve and Steam.

      1. Bandwidth - Not having an alternate way, any way to get games to consumers without downloading is a missed opportunity. My suggestion is that at checkout on Steam, you can select to pay a few dollars more and wait an additions few days for the physical media to be created and mailed to your address. To minimize any problems, the activation code could be recieved at the time of purchase and required when the software is installed upon delivery, or make the games default to off-line mode. Valve and the developer could realize lower operating costs by reduced bandwidth usage for a segment of their clientele that currently has no demographic. Let's face it - the Steam model revolves around POS and download, not POS and mail. I'm sure the DVD+mailer packaging that Netflix uses could provide some evidence that costs per unit, offset with an additional handling fee, would benefit everyone else that chooses to download their content. The only valid reason I can think of that this wouldn't be permissable is when ordering a physical copy of a game through Steam conflicts with a retail version of the same game manufactured through another distributor. In that case, the developer needs to provide for this contingency and package the game with other materials upto and including other content to create a new SKU or package. Allowing the archival copy (as mentioned in #2 below) is essentially creating a physical copy of the same game that can be puurchased at retail, only you need the Steam frontend and authentication process to access it.

      2. Archival Copy - I know that Steam allows the user to burn the game to physical media, but I've never done it so I don't know exactly how it plays out. Granting the end user the ability to burn one archival copy, with the record of fact maintained by Steam, should be permitted. That means that weather the consumer chose to order the physical copy (as I suggested in #1 above) or download it and burn it themselves, the integrity of the game and the system remains intact and the customer gets several ways to store the content.

      3. I believe in economies of scale and supply and demand. If Steam is releasing a new game that cost a lot to make and promote, they should be allowed to ask a lot for it. Historically, Valve and the developers have been good about utilizing pre-order promotions, pre-sequel price drops and post-release discounts to encourage sales spikes. Generally though, these are targeted for gamers that are early adopers or those that are willing to wait until the marketing hype cools down. I guess it comes down to what the consumer feel is a good value, getting a AAA title on release day or waiting until it's aged.

      Interestingly, I bought the retail GOTY edition of Oblivion from Wal Mart for $19.99 and it (at the time) was on sale on Steam for the same price. I'd much rather enter my retail codes on Steam, pay a few dollars to Valve and Bethesda (who are already Steam partners) and let lifetime upgrades and patches on my retail version so I don't have to worry about it anymore. In this Oblivion example, to the best of my knowledge all respective parties are represented so there's no reason why I can't grandfather in my retail game (for a fee) and get Steam support that includes authentication. Then in the event that I lose my retail physical media, I can pay again a handling fee and have the Steam version mailed to me.

      To opt out of the download and usage of bandwidth should be a noticable savings to Valve, but as I indicated I'd be glad to pay additional for that option and have either/or content insurance for life.

    4. Re:Steam As An Example... by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      Reinstalling games with Steam is incredibly easy. Just download/install the Steam client and log into your account. Click the Games tab and then select the games on your account you want to download. Another nice feature is that if you are reinstalling or moving to a new computer you can just copy/move the SteamApps folder in Steam's install directory and all of your games will be ready for you to play without needing to redownload them. This is much faster than having to reinstall all of the games off disks.

    5. Re:Steam As An Example... by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your point 2 on non-portability is incorrect. Right-click on the game you want to back up and select "Back up game files", and there's a wizard that will step through the creation of a back-up archive that you can easily burn to DVD. The back-up archive includes a reinstallation utility that puts the games back into Steam without any messing around, and the wizard includes the choice of whether you want CD-sized volumes, DVD-sized volumes, or larger, and they're just standard Windows files so you can burn them onto whatever media you like using whatever program you want.

      I keep backups of all my Steam games on my file server so that I can keep current games on my laptop's hard drive and store other games elsewhere, and so that I can migrate the games onto alternative devices without re-downloading, and it works well.

    6. Re:Steam As An Example... by DiamondMX · · Score: 1

      Fortunately, in spite of you having thrown out the game in question - you still own it and can still play it, follow the instructions from SScorpio, and you can have your game back.
      Isn't Steam wonderful.

    7. Re:Steam As An Example... by Nithendil · · Score: 1

      3. Oddly enough a month after Empire Total War came out it was $50 on Steam, while Gamestop had it new for $29. You can get some great deals on Steam but the price for new games is a ripoff IMO.

  9. DNAS Error -103 by tepples · · Score: 1

    And buying games for $20 is just a matter of waiting for the pricedrop.

    The pricedrop happens roughly when the game's publisher turns off the matchmaking server for online play. After that point, all you get when you try to play online is "DNAS Error -103: This software title is not in service."

    1. Re:DNAS Error -103 by commodore64_love · · Score: 2

      Online play? What's that? (I kid.) No actually I have no interest in being harassed by a bunch of kiddies that lack manners, so the problem you describe has never happened to me. I prefer standard offline games - me versus the computer.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  10. Good riddance by ashelton · · Score: 1

    The brick and mortar stores helped grow steam, at least for PC users. Their extremely poor selection of PC titles as they chased the console market, their focus on second hand sales and their lack of interest in competition forced people to depend on services like steam. The actual change-over though will happen when companies focus on on-line distribution and don't limit how competitive steam can be for fear of angering the retailers. You can already see this with a lot of smaller titles (which would probably not get any retailer presence anyway) who are free to offer great prices and special deals on steam games. In turn this experimentation and possibility of smaller titles making some cash is widening the number of games available. In comparison there's things like Call of Duty where steam was forced to near double the price to preserve the ability of retailers to rip off Australian customers. That sort of thing leaves a pretty sour taste in the mouth.

    Then look at something like Killing floor. Somewhere between a mod and a full game. Chance of getting it into EB without it already being huge (eg. counterstrike) near zero. However list it on steam, do things like this weekends free trial (easy to do on-line, impossible via retail) and maybe they'll make some money out of it.

    Oh, and all my downloads cost me no quota. My ISP (iinet) mirrors steam's files and allows fast (1Mb/sec) and free downloads.

    tl;dr. The sooner the game retailers die the better for gamers. Can buy the huge titles at regular stores and for anything specialised better it's on steam.

  11. Steam unpowered by astat · · Score: 1
    Much like Google watch, there's already a watchdog group for the big player Steam. You can find a comprehensive list of alternative online distributors on their site: http://steamunpowered.eu/steam-alternatives/

    Personally, I got very angry about Steam when they decided to change their online shop pricing to local currencies for some European countries - of course not without some juicy price increases. Basically, one Dollar then was transformed into one Euro now. (One Euro currently equals to 1,5 Dollar)

    Of course, this created a HUGE uproar among the community, with a notorious thread residing on page 1 of their general forum for several months now, currently at 449 pages despite heavy censorship: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=770231

    The wave of complaints meanwhile caused many Steam sellers to demand price adjustments, since they were affected as well by all this negative publicity among European customers. Nowadays, the price situation varies from game to game for continental European customers who are forced to pay in their local currency - may be a fair deal, may be a rip-off when compared to US prices. And surprisingly, UK Pound prices are often even cheaper than US Dollars.

    Okay, one last topic for my rant posting: The price issue in general. I mean what the hell?! As an Austrian citizen, it is far cheaper for me (like 30% cheaper!) to order a boxed game at http://play.com/ and have it shipped to me from the island of Jersey than purchasing a mere digital download on Steam. Yet Steam is very successful - they must be swimming in money. What infuriates me is that our economy/politicians/whatever created this bizarre situation, and are doing nothing to change it. It is an ecological nightmare! Producing DVDs and shipping them all over Europe by land and sea is less expensive than sending a few GB of data through some glass fibre? I want to see the person who's responsible for this. No, actually I just want to punch them in the face.

    Hey this might actually become my first 5-star posting *hopes for the best*

    1. Re:Steam unpowered by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

      Hey this might actually become my first 5-star posting *hopes for the best*

      I'm afraid you're at the bottom of the page, and most people run out of mod points before they get here.

    2. Re:Steam unpowered by ashelton · · Score: 1

      Steam is just a distribution service though. And it is unlikely they care about market segmentation (eg. gouging). However the content providers, the game companies, almost certainly pushed them into it with the thread of with-holding their games. The same for retail boxes costing less than on-line distribution.

      If you're getting taken for a ride (and as an Australian gamer that's nearly always the case) the answer is to not the buy the game. In which case it doesn't really matter where you are not buying it from. As per my post it was COD that did this in Australia, initially good value in US$ then suddenly terrible value in AU$. And as a result I just wrote the game off and moved on.

    3. Re:Steam unpowered by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      Being at the bottom of the page might hurt your post rating but runnign out of points shouldn't be an issue. The last few times I got mod points I recieved 15! It's taken me a few days to use them up each time.

    4. Re:Steam unpowered by astat · · Score: 1
      Okay the fact that both replies to my posting got +1 while mine didn't speaks a clear language. :)

      I still like my posting though..

    5. Re:Steam unpowered by Lord+Kestrel · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understand how the +1 Karma bonus works.

  12. Not there yet by greggman · · Score: 1

    Steam might be great (though count me as one who's had very bad experiences with it)

    But, on consoles, as cool as XBLA, PSN and Wii Shopping Channel are, they are not doing well. There are a few games that have done okay but they aren't even at 1/20th of retail levels for any comparable game.

    Of course eventually it will happen that e-distro will take over retail but except for iPhone it's far from there yet.

  13. "Digital"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    CDs and DVDs are digital, you fucking douchebags.

  14. Don't worry... by Gothic_Walrus · · Score: 1

    When there are still regions of the country without affordable broadband, games as digital downloads are a long way off. I don't think any of the console companies are ready to ignore significant chunks of the country because their residents can't afford to pay for expensive broadband plans solely to justify their shiny new console.

    --
    Goo goo g'joob.
  15. Anonymous Ramblings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Posting as anonymous coward, I don't want karma, only people who read.

    Like it, love it or hate it, Digital Distribution Format (DDF) is the future. Fewer costs associated with manufacturing, distributing and controlling loss. With faster internet connections, this is where the industry is headed.

    The game companies are businesses, they want to maximize profit. The costs of stamping a DVD for the game, boxing it up and shipping it vs. the cost of servers to distribute the game will eventually land everything towards digital distribution.

    Myself, I like a hard copy, but honestly the last game I bought was Super Mario Galaxy, so I could play it with my kids. My kids love digital distribution and prefer it to going to the store, they like having a game in a matter of minutes without having to drive to a store and *hope* the copies aren't sold out. Remember that problem with popular games (and the pre-order BS), a thing of the past with Digital Distribution.

    Most people here can complain, but you're only remembering the past with rose-tinted glasses. When a game had problems, patches were hard to get (Masters of Magic?) if at all possible. Now you get patches immediately online.

    Reselling games? How much do you really get for those old games? A pittance of what you paid for them. And the only old games people really want to buy are the old popular titles for the PC (X-com, Diablo, Warcraft II, etc.) or cartridges or discontinued systems (NES).

    As for brick and mortar stores. Most will go away. The good small ones, the really good ones (that have knowledgeable staff, and a good selection) will stick around. You will have stores carrying old games for old systems (the NES, SNES, Genesis, Atari 5200, etc). Just like there are good record stores that carry Vinyl albums still. They just won't be on every street corner.

    Now, I'm done with my ramblings. You can ignore as you see fit, but I'm going to play some X-Com UFO defense. I have the original disks, but I use the newer, less buggy version I downloaded off of the underdogs.