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Trojan Kill Switches In Military Technology

Nrbelex writes "The New York Times reports in this week's Science section that hardware and software trojan kill switches in military devices are an increasing concern, and may have already been used. 'A 2007 Israeli Air Force attack on a suspected, partly-constructed Syrian nuclear reactor led to speculation about why the Syrian air defense system did not respond to the Israeli aircraft. Accounts of the event initially indicated that sophisticated jamming technology was used to blind the radars. Last December, however, a report in an American technical publication, IEEE Spectrum, cited a European industry source in raising the possibility that the Israelis might have used a built-in kill switch to shut down the radars. Separately, an American semiconductor industry executive said in an interview that he had direct knowledge of the operation and that the technology for disabling the radars was supplied by Americans to the Israeli electronic intelligence agency, Unit 8200.'"

392 comments

  1. Open Source by toppavak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Its a good thing the DoD is taking a stronger, more positive stance towards open source software. I guess the next logical step would be open source hardware.

    1. Re:Open Source by wjousts · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, great idea. Let's have everybody know the inner workings of our military hardware so that they can build their own.

    2. Re:Open Source by TheDarAve · · Score: 1

      You forgot Open Source Intelligence, Open Source recruiting.... Next thing you know they'll crowd source 4chan against a religion...

    3. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Just in case you are not aiming to a funny mod, Open Source (Software and Hardware) as good as it is, is probably not the end-all solution to this problem.

      It takes HUGE amounts of resources (including time) and knowledge to do a full security audit that almost guarantees it's safe and killswitch free.

      And sometimes it can be damn near impossible to figure out whether or not it really IS clean, since all it takes is a few subtle differences in behaviour to open up the door to attackers, which can go unnoticed to most people who aren't looking for them in particular.

    4. Re:Open Source by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      This is a good point or maybe a bad one depending upon which side you are on. I guess we need to be for open hardware, but really how would you know if the part is being supplied by the Chinese? It really would be hard to test for it. As for the Syrian stuff. That was just probably old Soviet stuff that got jammed by high powered AESA. No the Russians keep stuff to their selves like we do. They might sell countries weapons as we do, but there will something in there that is left out of the export package.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Electronically_Scanned_Array

      The Russians probably didn't sell AESA to Syria or if they did it was cut down in some fashion.

    5. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not? We've just had a glimpse into the inner workings of your pea-sized brain. Oh, and by the way: Whoosh!

    6. Re:Open Source by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 4, Informative

      4chan is not your personal army...

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    7. Re:Open Source by TheDarAve · · Score: 1

      "They might sell countries weapons as we do, but there will something in there that is left out of the export package."

      Yea, the instruction manual.

    8. Re:Open Source by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wonder if people from 2050 er 2060 where did the decade go? from 50 years in the future came back in time to now and dropped their latest microchip, if it would even be useful? Sure, they have picometer circuits, but so what? We still don't know how to make them.

      --
      ...
    9. Re:Open Source by peragrin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Army no! An already organized unruly mob of idiots.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    10. Re:Open Source by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      Funny, but maybe. I was thinking about the electronic warfare packages.

      You see, I really just don't get it. Did we sell the hardware to Syria? If we didn't, I don't think that was the most like method used. I also think that the Israelis are just as capable of doing the same thing.

    11. Re:Open Source by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Oh jeebus. Building a missile, bomb or anything that kills people is NOT HARD. I can get the relevant documents needed for anyone with a mild training in electronics to build a guidance system for a missile or a homing system for a rocket.

      If you think there is something magical and wondrous in military hardware that makes it "special" you are watching way too much TV.

      Hell I have made ground launched model rockets that would home in on a ground target, and I did not use GPS to get within a 50 foot radius from a 1500 foot apogee point. This was with very basic electronics and almost no processing power plus parts from a hobby shop for helicopter and RC plane flying.

      I only needed 1-29/240 size engine to lift that payload. This was back in college for my EE degree, with todays stuff I could make the accuracy far better and use off the shelf GPS for long range AND would not need to lift as much as servos are smaller and lighter and the avaionics payload would be far lighter.

      Note: you can even buy UAV kits today.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    12. Re:Open Source by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      If you think 4chan is organized I suspect you've never been there.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    13. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is probably a good thing

    14. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a terrorist and I claim my $5

    15. Re:Open Source by BobisOnlyBob · · Score: 1

      Have you seen a proper mobilisation of their numbers? Admins no longer fear the Slashdotting, but the Chanraid.

    16. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. I can also build a nuclear bomb using off-the-shelf technology, no noisy centrifuges, just lots of electricity (lots) and some unenriched uranium. The only use of secrecy at this point is to hide your criminal activities. Military secrecy is used primarily to hide the diversion of public funds to criminal purposes.

    17. Re:Open Source by d3ac0n · · Score: 1

      -1 reading comprehension failure.

      Lumpy was saying that his rockets were NOT "Dumb" in that they could HOME to a general target area. he also noted that this was back in his college days, I'm assuming a not insignificant amount of time ago. He also stated that not only could you build a GPS capable homing rocket today, but that you can BUY OFF THE SHELF UAV kits!

      Seriously. Did you even read his post AT ALL?

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    18. Re:Open Source by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I also think that the Israelis are just as capable of doing the same thing.

      Selling military hardware to Syria?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re:Open Source by captaindomon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ok, I admit watching Iron Man gives you some false impressions. But I am also well acquainted with folks who work every day on the tech side of the defense industry. To take modern weapons systems and try to even think of equating them with your little toy rocket is ignorant at best, and flamebait at worst. That's like saying it's easy to put a man on the moon because you have a scuba diving suit, and a spacesuit is the same thing with a fishtank over your head. Or a CS undergrad saying they can write an OS from scratch because they have played around with assembly a bit. What you think is exactly what many warlords think, and build their own little toy rockets that they have to point at an enemy, until they are wiped out by some of our niftier stuff without even seeing it coming. Give some respect where it is due, please. /end rant/

      --
      Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
    20. Re:Open Source by murdocj · · Score: 1

      Just like building atomic bombs "is not hard". After all, poor countries like North Korea and Pakistan can do it.

      BUT building the FIRST atomic bomb took an enormous effort by the richest country on the planet. If my military has a technological advantage, I'd like to hang on to that advantage for as long as is possible.

    21. Re:Open Source by tibman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm sure the EE guys who built the Syrian's air defense system thought the same way as you. "I'll use all this great off-the-shelf tech, it's just so easy". Ohhh, it had a backdoor in the hardware... damn.

      I do get what you're saying, but i think it applies differently to platforms of war. When your opponent owns the companies that built half the parts for your weapon systems... can you really trust them?

      I have no doubt you could build some nifty weapons to seige a neighbor with but not a local government. The bomb techs would have analyzed the debris and come up with a short list for an investigator to pin down.

      One of my fav military techs is round return radar... even though it is simple and old. There's nothing like hearing outgoing fire before the first incoming round hits!

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    22. Re:Open Source by aminorex · · Score: 1

      U-238 is available in bulk from the disused counterweights in retired B747 aircraft. I guess all you need now is a hydro plant and you're a world power.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    23. Re:Open Source by Nathrael · · Score: 1

      The only use of secrecy at this point is to hide your criminal activities.

      I love the hypocrisy in this. Being secretive is any person's right - unless said person is working for the government. ONOZ PUBLIC CAMERAS, but at the same time, ONOZ GOVERNMENT HIDING TANK PLANS!!1.

      --
      A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
    24. Re:Open Source by aminorex · · Score: 1

      There is a distinction to be made between a material resource budget and an information resource budget. Information is free. Rocket propellant is not free.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    25. Re:Open Source by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      No, jamming Syrian radar with or without our help. I hear they have some stuff their selves.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbit_Systems

      I don't think they we need us Mr. Pope on a Rope.

    26. Re:Open Source by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      Let's have everybody know the inner workings of our military hardware so that they can build their own.

      I agree. If we can trick them into spending a large fraction of their GDP building this useless shit, they will be unable to compete. Victory: ours. Please, opponents, build military hardware. Oh, and press more of your could-be-workers into military "service." Muahahaha!!

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    27. Re:Open Source by Cyberax · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, toy rockets won't be reliable. Yes, they'll often fail. Yes, it's hard to scale the production.

      But they're more than enough for one-off operations like assassinations or terror acts.

    28. Re:Open Source by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 1

      1. Build a UAV that can carry 20 pounds via a circuitous path to a designated location more than 500 miles away.
      2. Go to Mexico. Buy white powder.
      3. Execute 15 more steps that should be fairly obvious.
      4. Profit!

      Gee - a sock gnome quandry that actually reaches a logical conclusion. I'm shocked!

      (Serious note - Why isn't this being done? If it was, I assume we'd have all heard about it.)

    29. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confusing doing it now, where the principles are well known vs having to do basic research into the really simple things.

      Building a fission device is easy. The downside is that it requires a lot of fissile material, is large and bulky, and not that efficient for its size. It's basically an engineering exercise at this point. It might be difficult to come up with the fissile material, but only in terms of effort and cost, not technical difficulties. But if you only want to make a big bang and don't care about efficiency or delivery, then a 1940s style device is very easy.

      The hard technical effort is miniaturization, getting the device small enough to fit into a rocket payload, with a big enough yield to make it worthwhile or awe-inspiring.

    30. Re:Open Source by somersault · · Score: 1

      It takes a hell of a lot more than just a rocket motor and some explosives to make a weapon that will kill effectively.

      What exactly are you trying to kill that can't "effectively" be taken out with an explosive guided missile? Godzilla?

      He already said the missile was guided, and it presumably wouldn't be that hard to set an accelerometer, heat sensor, laser distance measurer/whatever to judge when you have hit or got close enough to your target to explode. No, I haven't built a missile before, but it's not exactly rocket sc.. oh wait. Even so, it's not magic.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    31. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Or a CS undergrad saying they can write an OS from scratch because they have played around with assembly a bit.

      Linus was a CS undergrad...

    32. Re:Open Source by JohnFen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not hypocrisy, it's power differential.

      The government wields an enormous amount of power over us, and as such should expect a greater amount of scrutiny (as in less privacy) than us. This isn't hypocritical because the same rule applies to everyone. If you are given power over others, you sacrifice privacy through security screenings, etc.

      Also, the government is an artificial organization that we, the people, make up. It has no inherent, natural, moral, or ethical rights -- only those that we collectively grant it.

      We, as people, are a different animal altogether. We do have inherent, natural rights simply by virtue of our existence.

    33. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or a CS undergrad saying they can write an OS from scratch because they have played around with assembly a bit.

      Linus Torvalds was an undergraduate student.

    34. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to believe that the previous comment is intended to mean "If you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to hide." I don't see that meaning in the comment at all. I think the point was just to invalidate military secrecy.

    35. Re:Open Source by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      The best proof of this is that small countries buy military technology from larger countries. If any engineer could build comparable technology, surely these nations would just build their own systems.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    36. Re:Open Source by 2obvious4u · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you missed the point. Yes military grade guidance systems that are accurate to with 1 meter and travel 500 miles are very advanced and a hobbyist couldn't build that from hobby store parts. However, if your goal is to indiscriminatingly kill people it is very easy to do with off the shelf components, if you are so inclined.

      Another thing you are forgetting is that we built atomic bombs with minimal computing power. The first computers had trouble doing ballistic tables. Now you could make ballistics tables as an iPhone app. The level of information processing available to the public is staggering. There really isn't much that an individual so inclined couldn't produce.

    37. Re:Open Source by wm_brant · · Score: 1
      I don't think the issue is necessarily 'military hardware'. I believe the issue that the article addressed are the commercial chips *inside* hardware - military or commercial, used for military purposes. A grid of commercial servers used for military purposes is 'military hardware', despite it's commercial origins.

      I would not be surprised if -- for example, and I'm making this up -- the latest Intel processors had a hidden RFID capability supplied by the DoD that would cripple the processor if it received a particular coded signal. With a chip budget of billions of transistors, who could ever find something like that *if* it existed?

      Or maybe a Chinese-made motherboard with the same capability. Or a controller chip made fabricated in Eastern Europe. Or a software device driver with hidden military functionality. Or whatever. The point the article tried to make is that today's chips, motherboards, and software are so complicated, and are designed and produced by so many countries (not all of whom are necessarily on the same side) that hidden functionality could be built into them and nobody would ever notice them -- until they were activated.

      There is even the possibility that multiple kill functions exist in a single computer - each controlled by a different organization.

      Military hardware or not, imagine the havoc you could unleash if you had the capability to cripple all the Wintel computers in a given country...

    38. Re:Open Source by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

      Nah, the manual will be there.

      However, the little widget that holds the shelf to the sidewall will be missing.

      Which means someone ahead or behind you got two of those missing little widgets..

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    39. Re:Open Source by d3ac0n · · Score: 1

      It isn't being done for several reasons:

      1) Most of the people involved in drug cartels are brainless thugs or stupid patsies. Not the type of people likely to use a high-tech solution to a problem.

      2) Issues over the fact that the "merchandise" is now out of human hands and quite literally flying on it's own in such a way that it could conceivably be intercepted by someone you don't want.

      3) Despite price drops in off the shelf UAV tech, Using a human "Mule" is WAY cheaper than Building/Buying, maintaining and using a fleet of UAV's.

      4) The US Air Force. Do you REALLY think that they will allow foreign UAVs to fly for long in US Airspace? Please. US Airspace is the most tightly controlled on the PLANET. Any UAV large enough to carry that much weight is also going to be large enough to be noticed by radar and shot down.

      There you go. 4 solid reasons why UAVs are NOT used to smuggle illegal drugs.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    40. Re:Open Source by Metasquares · · Score: 1

      And then you can hold the world hostage for ONE MILLION DOLLARS?

    41. Re:Open Source by kent_eh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ummm. I think you guys are trying to make slightly different points.

      The parent was (I think) trying to refute the "you need secret stuff to build a machine that kills people" type claim.
      Which in no way contradicts your experience based statement, which I interpret as: "you really do need lots of advanced hi-tech to build an accurate, advanced, effective killing machine"

      --

      ---
      "I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
    42. Re:Open Source by mpe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Building a missile, bomb or anything that kills people is NOT HARD. I can get the relevant documents needed for anyone with a mild training in electronics to build a guidance system for a missile or a homing system for a rocket.

      However building a missile which destroys an invading warplane is rather harder. If you are in Syria, Lebanon, Iran (or quite a few other places) then this is the kind of missile you are likely to need.
      The claim here is that the attackers were somehow able to disable the SAMs which would otherwise have made their attack considerably more risky.

    43. Re:Open Source by Bakkster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      However, if your goal is to indiscriminatingly kill people it is very easy to do with off the shelf components, if you are so inclined.

      In general, only non-state actors want to kill people indiscriminately. Nations (Syria included) have to worry about their own people, diplomacy, UN resolutions, etc. If you're a terrorist organization, simple technology can fulfil your requirements. An IED is effective for an insurgency, but not for full-scale war.

      However, on the nation-nation level, it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to carry out long-range warfare without comparable technology to your opponent. This stuff doesn't come easy. Sure, a simple radar can be built by anybody, but it won't do you any good against a stealth fighter with an advanced electronic warfare suite. To be effective, your technology must not be easily countered, and hobbyist stuff doesn't fit the bill if you need to perform anything more complex than just exploding.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    44. Re:Open Source by Zaiff+Urgulbunger · · Score: 1

      Oh jeebus. Building a missile, bomb or anything that kills people is NOT HARD. I can get the relevant documents needed for anyone with a mild training in electronics to build a guidance system for a missile or a homing system for a rocket.

      But what if I want a missile that has it's own blog? Or a bomb that tweets before it explodes? See, you *need* open source!

    45. Re:Open Source by Entropius · · Score: 1

      They put together a global protest involving 60k people in something like ten days.

      Chaos can spontaneously organize very effectively under the right conditions. Tom Cruise going nuts is one of them.

    46. Re:Open Source by camperdave · · Score: 1

      "Military secrets are the most fleeting of all." - Spock, to the Romulan commander ST:TOS - The Enterprise Incident

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    47. Re:Open Source by d3ac0n · · Score: 1

      Actually, it is precisely this concern that has led the DOD to BAN all Lenovo machines from their networks and facilities.

      Lenovo is (as we know) made in China. Given that the majority of both successful and unsuccessful DoD security breaches in the last 10 years have come from China, and that the Chinese govt. still keeps a very close relationship with all of it's major manufacturers, it's not a long stretch to imagine the Chi-coms planting firmware back doors into all Lenovo machines in the hopes of gaining access to US secrets.

      There was a /. article about this a while back, and as I remmeber, MOST (although not all) of /. went into full BDS mode and attacked the idea as "Crazy Bush-Cheney-Rovian conspiracy mongering against our Chinese friends." In light of this news from Syria, is it REALLY that far-fetched?

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    48. Re:Open Source by gentlemen_loser · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Yes, watching Iron Man has given you many false impressions. To address this:

      ... Or a CS undergrad saying they can write an OS from scratch because they have played around with assembly a bit.

      Do you mean like this guy: Linus Torvalds It started with something small:

      Hello everybody out there using minix - I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones. This has been brewing since april, and is starting to get ready. I'd like any feedback on things people like/dislike in minix, as my OS resembles it somewhat (same physical layout of the file-system (due to practical reasons) among other things). I've currently ported bash(1.08) and gcc(1.40), and things seem to work. This implies that I'll get something practical within a few months, and I'd like to know what features most people would want. Any suggestions are welcome, but I won't promise I'll implement them :-) Linus (torvalds@kruuna.helsinki.fi) PS. Yes – it's free of any minix code, and it has a multi-threaded fs. It is NOT portable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never will support anything other than AT-harddisks, as that's all I have :-(.

      Its douche-bags like you that help to keep the general population convinced that they are incapable of anything special. News flash: Everyday people, with dedication, determination, hard work, and the proper application of intelligence and education are capable of doing huge things. The people working for the DoD are the same CS and EE majors working at IBM, OnStar, and Verizon.

    49. Re:Open Source by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      1) Most of the people involved in drug cartels are brainless thugs or stupid patsies. Not the type of people likely to use a high-tech solution to a problem.

      "Most?" Ok, I guess if you're really smart you get legit work. But the drug cartels are not entirely without clever people.

      For instance, they've built a number of near-submarines (photos), and there are rumors of GPS guided ones in the works. (I say "near-submarines" because they float just below the surface and run an air-breathing engine using a snorkel). Seems pretty sophisticated to me.

    50. Re:Open Source by Stradivarius · · Score: 1

      There's a world of difference between knowing in principle how to build something, and having a completely functional, debugged design/implementation in hand. Getting from the former to the latter requires a large investment of time and manpower. From a military standpoint, why wouldn't you want to force your adversaries to duplicate your effort, rather than doing the work for them?

    51. Re:Open Source by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 1

      2) Issues over the fact that the "merchandise" is now out of human hands and quite literally flying on it's own in such a way that it could conceivably be intercepted by someone you don't want.

      I'm pretty sure this happens all the time, even with humans at the wheel

    52. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Give me a break.

      It doesn't matter if a third world despot can see a cruise missile coming because said despot doesn't have the equipment to shoot it down. Even if he could, we could launch so many of the things at him that we'd overload any defense most tinpot revolutionaries can put up. The same goes for aircraft, artillery, you name it. This is why we're so effective at steamrolling conventional forces, and also why we perennially fail to counter asymmetric tactics without taking a scorched earth approach. (Our strategies most often assume the enemy is having a clusterfuck orgy of some kind and that they'll smile for the camera on the end of that missile flying toward them while they do it.) We have more stuff! If plan-A fails, plan-B is to repeat plan-A so many times (often simultaneously) that it works. One missile/air strike/bombardment didn't work? Try five, or ten. Maybe twenty.

      I posit that the Gulf War could have been won with World War Two era technology just because we could ram so much of it up Saddam's ass that he wouldn't be able to stop us. When we finally did knock his regime over, what did we do? We threw bombs into his war machine until it choked. Better technology might mean fewer of those bombs have to be used and that collateral damage is less likely, but the strategy hasn't changed a bit. At some point, quantity does win out over quality, and our modern military is living proof of that.

      You're also missing the GP's point, which is that the barriers to entry for making relatively advanced military hardware are lower now than ever before. The same goes for space technology, which you also brought up. It's not a cakewalk and not every idiot could do it, but with adequate information (which is everywhere now) and the right parts (also everywhere) you can make all kinds of lethal toys. Whether or not you would achieve parity with the stuff on the field is another story, but if you want to do some damage and do it with a high degree of accuracy and reliability? Yes, you can, and for less money and effort than you probably think. The GP knows that building a guided missile that could deliver a payload is less difficult than it sounds. The warlords you mentioned assume this single missile will magically win wars for them.

    53. Re:Open Source by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 2, Informative

      Except in that case, 'they' isn't 4chan leadership like moot, it's just Anonymous #1 saying to Anonymous #2, hey, let's go do this, and then a fuckton of people sign on to it. 'Project Chanology' was something of a fluke, insofar as it accomplished something approaching 'useful', but most chanraids are just immature griefer mobs that do things like close the pool at Habbo Hotel.

      4chan has provided a means by which people can organize themselves with little fear of social retribution, but 4chan itself is NOT an organizing force.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    54. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gives me an idea ... iBallistics, the iPhone app that builds ballistic tables!

    55. Re:Open Source by NonSequor · · Score: 1

      Yes and he wrote Linux by replacing pieces of an already working system (Minix) with his own code.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    56. Re:Open Source by mikael · · Score: 1

      There was article some time ago, about an construction worker/engineer had built his own cruise missile from a GPS receiver, some compressed gas tanks and copper piping (oxygen/hydrogen) for fuel, a handful of stepper motors for the guidance fins, and an standard construction workers ultrasonic/laser distance measuring unit to determine the height off the ground.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    57. Re:Open Source by conureman · · Score: 1

      It'll never work until the shark issues are overcome.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    58. Re:Open Source by ultranova · · Score: 2, Informative

      But I am also well acquainted with folks who work every day on the tech side of the defense industry.

      You mean those people who have NDAs and will likely get charged with treason if they tell you anything of what they actually do? Or the people who have no NDAs because they do nothing of importance?

      Oh well, never mind, I'm sure either of these would make for an extremely reliable source of information.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    59. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, what a shock, he bootstrapped one OS on top of another. What a failure, huh?

    60. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there's an app for that:
      http://ballistic.zdziarski.com/

      actually there are a bunch including ones that interface directly with common military rifles. Like this one here:
      http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481004,00.html

    61. Re:Open Source by conureman · · Score: 1

      I can see James Bond trying to thwart assassination by a twitter-controlled mass launching of individual cells' home-made GPS-guided RPGs. The movie looks good, who cares about real life?

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    62. Re:Open Source by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Another thing you are forgetting is that we built atomic bombs with minimal computing power.

      And you could build one today with minimal computing power - but you'll still have a extraordinarily difficult time getting the nuclear material, a fairly difficult time getting the high precision and specialized electronics, and a modestly difficult time producing explosives to the standards required. None of it is off the shelf.
       
       

      Another thing you are forgetting is that we built atomic bombs with minimal computing power. The first computers had trouble doing ballistic tables. Now you could make ballistics tables as an iPhone app.

      And once you've written the app - where are you going to get the artillery pieces you'll need to put those ballistic tables to use? Hell, for that matter, where are going to get the internal and external ballistics data and the aerodynamic data[1] needed as input for the app to calculate those tables in the first place?
       
      Don't let the easy availability of computing power or the relative simplicity of the equations fool you - software isn't hardware. When you leave the digital world and start interacting with the real world, things get difficult pretty quickly.
       
       

      I think you missed the point. Yes military grade guidance systems that are accurate to with 1 meter and travel 500 miles are very advanced and a hobbyist couldn't build that from hobby store parts. However, if your goal is to indiscriminatingly kill people it is very easy to do with off the shelf components, if you are so inclined.

      No, it seems to me the grandparent was blatantly claiming he do as good or better than military grade hardware with off the shelf components. Like you he mistakenly believes that computers are the Answer To Everything.

      [1] Making firing tables in the real world is a medium hard job - there are a lot of variables, and not all them obvious to the non specialist.

    63. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a backdoor was employed, they probably weren't just using off the shelf parts. They were probably using entire off the shelf packages. Technological black-boxes to them. There's a big difference between installing your own radar system and actually building one, and I sincerely doubt that the latter is within their grasp due to the industrial and scientific limitations of the regime.

      It's just like the difference between buying some ICs and lead solder at Radio Shack and learning how to build say, a telephone, and just going to Nokia and buying a phone. GP is saying that the bits and pieces are out there, and so is the know-how, to build something. The Syrians just wanted to get a radar installed and didn't care where it came from or who built it. See what I'm getting at?

      And just so it's out there, yes, constructing microchips is voodoo to most people. For now, even those parts will have to come from somewhere, complete with the possibility that there's an insidious back door in each of them. (Though as the parts get smaller and less complex, the probability of there being something of the sort declines substantially.) To support a war machine you have to have some kind of industrial apparatus to feed it, and silicon foundries are alien technology even to the first world. But, who says that will last forever, or even much longer? The reason a lot of this technology doesn't enjoy wide adoption is because it's not common knowledge. Not very many people have wrapped their heads around it. It's not a simple process, you probably won't pull it off in your garage, but that won't stop people from trying and eventually succeeding at it.

    64. Re:Open Source by FrankSchwab · · Score: 1

      Do you have a source for that U-238? I've always thought it would be pretty cool to have lump of it sitting around. /frank

      --
      And the worms ate into his brain.
    65. Re:Open Source by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      You hit it on the nose, your post is pretty much flamebait.

      How you went to wild comparisons is really bizzare, But I'll respond anyways.

      Most governments and violent groups don't give a shit about hitting a city half a planet away. They are about blowing up a target that is not far away. my "toy" can easily be scaled up to take out a building. that same toy can easily be scaled up to take out an aircraft or ship.

      Just because you are incapable of comprehending it does not mean that others can't. but then you must also believe that you cant blow up a tank with an improvised land mine.

      Go spend some time in the middle east and see how someone can use outdated low grade tech to do things that you are not capable of doing.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    66. Re:Open Source by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

      What country do you live in?

      Governments and US don't wield power in the USA, just ask any C*O, lobbyist, politician, or clergy.
      Corporate governance of US is well documented by financial transactions and 40 years of declining real-wages and education.
      US citizens have no more virtue in existence than EU or China citizens.

      Inherent power or inalienable/natural rights are reserved to the birth-rights entitled, the whoops leaders, and corporate welfare C*Os that can buy governance and scam our great deluded society.

      CITI bank and others are providing credit cards with 30% interest rates. [The Chorus] "When I was in the USMC in 1969@17yo." That was considered a mafia (organized-crime) loan-shark interest rate. USA governance today says it is okay today and legal.

      Today you buy a medical insurance policy and they may or may not pay benefits "When I was in the USMC in 1969@17yo." that was called fraud a criminal scam that no one goes to jail for anymore.

      Corporate bailouts and lazy good for nothing on the tax-role-dole C*Os today replaced "When I was in the USMC in 1969@17yo." the social welfare for the homeless and hungry.

      Systemic USA health systems problems are solved regularly by politicians for Corporate America Bonuses "When I was in the USMC in 1969@17yo." The Government paid for public health research (vaccines, equipment, medicine...) now companies own human gnome patents.

      Systemic USA education problems education K-12 all the way up to 4y BBS (Bachelor of Business Sciences) is pure cap&clown bullshit "When I was in the USMC in 1969@17yo." business was a respectable BA art (never Fine Art) "Business" as a HoHa science is as silly as "Global Warming Bushes predicting a glacial cold fronts."

      Systemic USA education problems solved by tax-role-dole vouchers for private/religious schools "When I was in the USMC in 1969@17yo." cannot cure child-day-care-taker failure environments, but school repairs, better books, clean bathrooms, healthy lunches, music/athletics and after school programs, upgraded teaching technology, providing a learning environment, expelling problem children, holding parents and teachers accountable for god-damn sure will help the children, the public, our society, and the nation.

      Hard work and Investments provided the best retirements "When I was in the USMC in 1969@17yo." Today legal marketing scams and gambling with other peoples money provides the very best retirement possible for the few at the financial destruction of the many (lose homes, jobs, retirements...).

      Facts is Facts ... US is delusional fools and ain't shit in the USA today. "When I was in the USMC in 1969@17yo." US meant something good.

      Love US and make it better. Let's US not work our children into their graves to make it even better for treasonous politicians and C*Os.

      Dang you you derailed me from the topic!

      --
      Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
    67. Re:Open Source by orasio · · Score: 1

      I wonder if people from 2050 er 2060 where did the decade go? from 50 years in the future came back in time to now and dropped their latest microchip, if it would even be useful? Sure, they have picometer circuits, but so what? We still don't know how to make them.

      But Skynet does.

    68. Re:Open Source by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      There is, unfortunately, legal precedent against this recently in the implied right to privacy given to companies (beginning, after a quick google search with Santa Clara Co v Southern Pacific Railroad in 1886).

    69. Re:Open Source by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Oh, yes -- most chanraids are exactly that, because there's no real impetus to organize on a large scale. But Chanology showed that if you give a bunch of randomly disorganized people sufficient motivation they will efficiently organize just the way you say, without a centralized organizing force.

      Just because there's no command authority pointing everyone in the same direction doesn't mean that there's no organization. There was in fact an elaborate system of forums and subforums and IRC channels and wiki pages keeping things organized during the whole thing.

    70. Re:Open Source by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Informative

      Which in no way contradicts your experience based statement, which I interpret as: "you really do need lots of advanced hi-tech to build an accurate, advanced, effective killing machine"

      http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/cruise.shtml
      http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile/

      This is years old and I have no idea how his story ended.
      Last I read, the New Zealand version of the IRS had dropped on his head like a ton of bricks...
      But since he's updated his site this year, I guess he's 'back'.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    71. Re:Open Source by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      Ah, but the chaos can be aimed, as long as you don't mind collateral damage.

    72. Re:Open Source by waveclaw · · Score: 1

      Give some respect where it is due, please

      Okay: respect the engineers. Never the equipment.

      'Military grade' just a matter of engineering. Which is highly dependent on the quality of the engineer. Yes, it is the person and their efforts = not some magical unobtanium element only given to the military - that makes military equipment any different than civilian equipment.

      The study the history of engineering is very telling to this. First there were Engineers. They worked for the military only. They applied science to solve problems of armies. When someone started needing something more complex then a cow to run a farm, you had Civil Engineering. Literally 'Civilian' engineers. Now you have hundreds of different fields in Engineering. Both the Civil and military use the same physics, same practices and same base materials. Today, with government contracting, they are often the same people.

      To take modern weapons systems and try to even think of equating them with your little toy rocket is ignorant at best, and flamebait at worst.

      Three words: improvised roadside bombs. If it can kill people, it's a weapon. The only measure of how much respect it should get is how deadly it is. Thinking that some random dude working at home cannot be effective has cost people lives before. And this doesn't even get into the clusterf*ck that is government contracting - in all its lowest bidder glory - that is behind 'modern' weapon systems.

      Or a CS undergrad saying they can write an OS from scratch because they have played around with assembly a bit

      Yeah. Never happens.

      From: torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds)
      Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
      Subject: What would you like to see most in minix?

      Hello everybody out there using minix -

      I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and
      professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones.

      --

      "You cannot have a General Will unless you have shared experiences. You cannot be fair to people you don't know."
    73. Re:Open Source by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      It's a good thing the West is putting in kills switches in the crap we sell to these dictatorships.

      Oh, the horror!

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    74. Re:Open Source by tibman · · Score: 1

      Exciting times! I only recently started messing with an arduino and thoroughly enjoying every minute. I've never been very good at electronics but decent at programming. The arduino opened up so many doors.

      A hardware backdoor in an embedded chip would be absolutely impossible for me to detect. Or even if the compiler was putting in a software backdoor.. i wouldn't know. That's a pretty general purpose chip though, not sure how a backdoor could be used. Unless they learned more about it's purpose in the project? Or they knew my address and interdicted and substituted my atmel chips with a modified version.... /me puts on tinfoil hat

      Any decent howto's on building 8 bit socs in the garage? Preferably something the wife won't notice?

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    75. Re:Open Source by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, yes -- most chanraids are exactly that, because there's no real impetus to organize on a large scale. But Chanology showed that if you give a bunch of randomly disorganized people sufficient motivation they will efficiently organize just the way you say, without a centralized organizing force.

      Just because there's no command authority pointing everyone in the same direction doesn't mean that there's no organization. There was in fact an elaborate system of forums and subforums and IRC channels and wiki pages keeping things organized during the whole thing.

      Anarchy in action. Organization without hierarchy, just informal committees created to perform a specific task and disbanded afterwards.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    76. Re:Open Source by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I love the hypocrisy in this. Being secretive is any person's right - unless said person is working for the government. ONOZ PUBLIC CAMERAS, but at the same time, ONOZ GOVERNMENT HIDING TANK PLANS!!1.

      Every person has a right to secrecy on his own affairs. No person has a right to keep from his employer what he's doing at work, thought. And a public servant is working for the public, by definition, so the public should have a right to know what their employee is doing in their name and with their authority.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    77. Re:Open Source by fredklein · · Score: 1

      I would not be surprised if -- for example, and I'm making this up -- the latest Intel processors had a hidden RFID capability supplied by the DoD that would cripple the processor if it received a particular coded signal. With a chip budget of billions of transistors, who could ever find something like that *if* it existed?

      There's a book 'The Third Fury', if I recall correctly, that had this as a plot.

      An ex-president had a secret deal with the head of an electronics firm and a president of a TV network. The chips the electronics guy made came in two varieties- one normal, one with a hidden circuit that would respond to a coded signal sent by the TV guy's satellite. The special chips, which were only in equipment sold/given to foreign powers, would shut the chip down upon receiving that signal. Then, years later, the electronics guy (now retired, and no longer running the company) finds out that ALL the chips, even those given to the US Military have the hidden circuit. And the TV guy's network is undergoing a hostile takeover....

    78. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh ye idiot who doesn't understand sarcasm.

      I call. Double Whoosh!

    79. Re:Open Source by gd2shoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      a) If we knew "the inner workings" of said chips, it would give us a substantial boost. We'd no longer be wondering how something could work, only how to make it. We'd probably also be able to infer some of the decisions that eventually led to that design.

      b) You should consider embracing your parenthetical statements with parenthesis:

      I wonder if people from 2050 er 2060 where did the decade go? from 50 years in the future...

      Becomes something like:

      I wonder if people from 2050-- er 2060 (where did the decade go?)-- from 50 years in the future...

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    80. Re:Open Source by eh2o · · Score: 1

      These days this statement applies to just about everything of reasonable sophistication, from iPhones to TVs to cruise missiles.

      Thanks to the DIY boom (Make Magazine, Arduino, etc) thousands of people now think they know electronics, but the reality is most of that stuff is like some kind of sad joke, at best you could make an IED, but making something that actually works reliably with repeatable instrumentation standards is several orders of magnitude more difficult.

    81. Re:Open Source by triffid_98 · · Score: 1

      The best proof of this is that small countries buy military technology from larger countries. If any engineer could build comparable technology, surely these nations would just build their own systems.

      They buy military hardware, not technology. There are economies of scale at work here. Larger countries have big budgets and big production facilities. Why reverse engineer an AK-47 when a surplus model can be had for roughly $20USD. Why engineer a submarine when USSR is selling their older ones for pennies on the dollar?

      It's not a matter of can it be done, it's a matter of what's most time and cost effective.

    82. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can do ballistic stuff by hand (well, you'll want a calculator for sine and cosine) by the middle of a college calculus 3 course. Actually you could do it with high school math and an extra five minutes of instruction, since there isn't actually any calculus in it, just plugging values into a few standard equations. The simple version (which assumes no wind) only needs initial velocity, initial height, and the distance and height of the target; and then you solve for the angle. The calc3 student could also, with some work, account for a steady wind. (We didn't actually DO ones with wind in my class, but clearly we'd just have a three part parametric equation and a steady wind would be a constant vector times time...). We also didn't bother with friction against the air, either, which I suppose you'd need if you wanted to hit a dime from a few miles away.

      But anyway, yeah, your general point is correct: it's much harder to get the artillery than it is to make a table for aiming it. The same applies to nuclear weapons, too; the average physics grad student has been able to successfully design a basic nuke for decades now, an average engineer would be able to build it, but damn it's hard to actually get ahold of the highly enriched uranium you'd need for it to work...

    83. Re:Open Source by v1z · · Score: 1

      Well, you could start with a "hello world!" operating system:

          http://www.vpri.org/fonc_wiki/index.php/XO_Hacking

      Seriously, it's a lot easier to build a bomb that can kill a few thousand civilians (air burst fuel-air explosives anyone?), than a rocket that can take out a stealth UAV before it's able to take you out.

      On the other hand, if the "bad guys" had access to real weapons, maybe they'd kill some politicians, generals and CEOs rather than infantry and civilians (on "both" sides) ...

    84. Re:Open Source by lennier · · Score: 1

      "I can see James Bond trying to thwart assassination by a twitter-controlled mass launching of individual cells' home-made GPS-guided RPGs."

      Coffee, dinner, movie, chocolates... and BOOM! Twitter-controlled fem-rocket-bot!

      @blofeld: wtf u camper she was my date

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    85. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always thought it would be pretty hot.

    86. Re:Open Source by NonSequor · · Score: 1

      The discussion at hand has been going back and forth between people saying not to underestimate the value of something that already works and people providing examples of hobbyists putting together things that work fairly well on their own.

      My intention was to show that the example of Linux really supports the former camp. By building Linux on top of an established system, Linus was able to avoid the trouble (or rather, postpone the trouble) of designing his kernel's various interfaces to hardware and other software and focus on the more manageable problem of implementing that interface.

      What he did was a great achievement for a CS undergrad, but it's not on the same scale as writing an OS from scratch.

      So returning to the original topic, even if all of the knowledge needed to design a guided missile is public knowledge, it takes a great deal of planning to actually consolidate that knowledge into a design. That design work is greatly reduced when you can work by making modifications to an established design.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    87. Re:Open Source by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 1

      but it's not exactly rocket sc..

      It's not. Rocket science is pretty well established for what we can and can't do at the moment. Until we make a breath-through like gravitonics or FTL, then it will be a fairly static incremental-based field (small increments, slightly faster, slightly smaller, slightly longer range, etc.). The efficiency of the killing weapon comes down to payload, accuracy and target analysis. Like you said, setting that sort of stuff up is not difficult. With a fast enough, small enough (again with the incremental) processor, you could even analyse images taken from a miniature camera and determine whether the weapon was hitting the correct vehicle or building relative to its size, dimensions and GPS location - or explode harmlessly underwater/mountain/etc. if necessary.

      Not rocket science, basic weapon science with some electronics thrown in.

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    88. Re:Open Source by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      So? 1. Security through obscurity never works, and 2. You can already build bombs and buy heavy weapons. Oh, and I found complete plans for nuclear bomb building on the net, back in 1998.
      Didn't change anything. Because 1., when you use that millitary hardware for anything bad, you still will go to jail or be shot. And 2. Having the plans is very far from being able to build it. A single F-22 does not cost $142.6 million for nothing. (Especially nuclear bombs are completely and utterly impossible to build, without very serious engineering experience and expertise in that area. Without it, you will just get a lump of uranium in a non-uniform-blob, without a nuclear chain-reaction. Also, you'd have to get the uranium/plutonium first.)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    89. Re:Open Source by Rennt · · Score: 1

      It's pretty bloody exciting is what it is - harbinger of a coming singularity.

    90. Re:Open Source by tibman · · Score: 1

      Low grade tech like manufactured 155mm rounds? Most IEDs and VBIEDs are made from military grade weapons. Nobody is building their own rockets. Just like you aren't building your own rocket engines, you purchase them.

      In my experience, i'd rather be rocketed than mortared. Half of the time the rockets never explode, just stick in the dirt like a lawn dart.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    91. Re:Open Source by djdavetrouble · · Score: 1

      THIS ISN'T Rocket Science! Oh wait.....

      --
      music lover since 1969
    92. Re:Open Source by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Yes military grade guidance systems that are accurate to with 1 meter and travel 500 miles are very advanced and a hobbyist couldn't build that from hobby store parts.

      I would only consider designing and building it a challenge but microcontrollers and FPGAs are not hobby store parts. The most difficult problems would be economical testing (failure is expensive) and terminal guidance.

      I could build a GPS receiver without ASICs but the precision code is encrypted and the necessary corrections are not available in real time which limits accuracy. That leaves other methods for terminal guidance which are either difficult to engineer like fast image recognition or require some type of target designation. Radio Electronics long ago had the designs for a sun seeking Estes style rocket which was amazingly simple.

    93. Re:Open Source by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

      Wow you guys don't keep up with the news at all do you? Here is a story about homemade nuclear materials, good enough for a dirty bomb. With enough effort you could make something better.

      And here is some homemade artillery. This stuff is easy to make.Ever heard of pumpkin chunking?
      A rudementary level of blacksmithing or machine making can make some impressive guns.

      I'm not under the impression that computers are the answer to everything, you still need to know what you are doing. The computer is only as good as those programming it.

  2. Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Didn't Thatcher kill the Argentina's French made missiles during the Falklands war with a remote kill code?

    1. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Funny

      Thatcher probably just killed them with an especially icy stare...

    2. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by HawkinsD · · Score: 4, Informative

      Perhaps you're referring to the French-made Exocet missiles, launched from the Argentine Super Etendard planes? The 20 dead sailors on HMS Sheffield, sunk by an Exocet, would disagree.

      --
      Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by mere idiocy.
    3. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Xiph · · Score: 2, Informative

      Are you referring to the french made Exocet missiles that sank the type 42 destroyer HMS Sheffield causing 44 casaulties, whereof 20 were fatal?

      --
      Blah blah sig blah blah blah irony blah blah
    4. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by RegularFry · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Given that the Argentinians didn't actually have any launchers for the Exocets in the first place, it's a bloody miracle any got launched at all. There's no mention of a kill switch anywhere that I can find, and given that they launched all four they had, and all but one are accounted for, the kill switch story sounds unlikely.

      --
      Reality is the ultimate Rorschach.
    5. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by MrMr · · Score: 1

      She didn't do a very good job at it then: read up on your recent history

    6. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is a margaretthatcherfacts.com website in the offing?

    7. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silly human, zombies can't vote!

    8. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      most of the exocets the argentinians had were naval versions designed to be lanched from ships. since they were keeping their ships away from the combat zone after a british sub sunk ARA general belgrano.

      after that they were left with the very few aircraft lanuched units they had. in the end, 3 hit. one in the HMS sheffield, two on MV atlantic conveyor. sheffild sunk near the exclusion zone. atlantic conveyor lost the cargo and was towed back to england, then scuttled bacuase the damages were so extensive it'd be cheaper to build another ship thank repair her.

      to tell the truth, the argentinians were ONE exocet away from winning the war. if they had scored one fatal hit against HMS invincible, that would have given them the war and the malvinas islands. unfortunatelly, our "hermanos" only had one left. the super etendards atacked the invincible with support of four A4 skyhawks, but the exocet only caused superficial damage, and the bombs from the skyhawks missed.

      thus the british kept their islands.

      disclaimer: i'm brasilian, was alive during the war and living in rio grande do sul, a brasilian state that shares a large border with argentina.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    9. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by AC-x · · Score: 1

      Close, but if I remember a documentary on the conflict correctly the missiles needed codes to work which the French government was /going to/ withhold, but someone leaked them to the Argentinians

    10. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silly human, zombies can't vote!

      Vote yes on braaains

    11. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which 20?

    12. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by SpinyManiac · · Score: 1

      The Royal Navy maintains that Invincible wasn't hit during the war.
      I may be British but I don't know as I wasn't there. ;)

      There were actually two British carriers present, but I doubt they would have caried on fighting with just Hermes if Invincible were knocked out. Illustrious was completed shortly after the war so it's possible that it could have dragged on long enough for Invincible to be replaced, but that seems more like a sensational "what if" TV show than reality.

      IIRC, the French were amazed that the Argentinians managed to convert their naval exocets into air launched missiles. Impressive stuff. :)

      --
      It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
    13. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [quote]to tell the truth, the argentinians were ONE exocet away from winning the war. if they had scored one fatal hit against HMS invincible, that would have given them the war and the malvinas islands[/quote] Or, the British would have taken the gloves off, accepted the American offer of support, and started making Argentine military, and civilian assets in the area go "poof"..

    14. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately? Son, there have been UK citizens living there since 1765. It's theirs. Deal with it.

      As far as Argentina vs UK:

      Right. Argentina would have been incinerated. There is no way Thatcher would have let a third-rate power like Argentina keep the islands.

      Even if Maggie didn't incinerate various Argentine military targets, the nuclear attack subs in the area could have made life difficult for Argentina for years to come. I'm a bit disappointed that Thatcher decided to let Argentina even have a military after the invasion; she should have parked the second carrier along with a few support ships off their coast and immolated them.

    15. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by acb · · Score: 1

      Thatcher reportedly pressured Mitterrand into handing over the kill codes, threatening a nuclear strike on Buenos Aires if he didn't comply.

      Mitterrand's (symbolic) revenge was the Channel Tunnel, ending Britain's haughty isolation from the Continent forever.

    16. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by ei4anb · · Score: 1
      Sometimes it's not the James Bond technology that defeats the high-tech defense systems. On the Sheffield the electronic antimissile defenses were switched off to allow the captain to speak with Naval headquarters near London because they interferred with satellite comms.
      http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/2.53.html#subj1.1
      --

      On the topic of TFA, it is in the interests of local defense contractors to promote scare stories about foreign components. I am aware of some research into trojan components (such as CPUs that have a built in error that is triggered by a sequence of opcodes found in a certain encryption algorithm) but I remain unconvinced by the theories on the 2007 Syria attack.

    17. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by RegularFry · · Score: 1

      Details here if you're interested.

      --
      Reality is the ultimate Rorschach.
    18. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Beretta+Vexe · · Score: 1

      The French exocet missile worked perfectly. Argentinian even convert their sea-sea version to air-sea version by their own and it's unclear if they did seriously damaged the HMS Hermes.

      The real kill switch was on the German made torpedo of the Guppy. They fire nine torpedo again the Yarmouth none exploded.

      Morality for your weaponry buy french.

    19. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by HawkinsD · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wait! I retract my earlier assertion.

      According to this article (cited elsewhere in this thread by acb) about French President Mitterand, PM Thatcher successfully pressured the French to reveal the "codes to make the Exocets deaf and blind" after the Sheffield was sunk.

      Very interesting.

      --
      Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by mere idiocy.
    20. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's OK to use capital letters in your writing.

    21. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by cluemore · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The remarkable thing is that 4 exocets hit their targets, caused considerable damage, but none of them exploded! The worst damage was caused when the flame from the solid fuel rockets of the exocets ignited the aluminum hulls, which then could not be extinguished. The british have since reconsidered their decision to build their ships out of inflammable metals. Aluminum will burn even under water, and the only way to extinguish the fire is to smother it with inert materials (non-oxygen bearing).

      At the time I thought that one failure to explode was possibly accidental equipment failure, but for all four to fail, that had to be a kill switch. I think the british had the kill codes for the exocets, but only used them to disable the explosive, not the targeting, not thinking about how the heat of the fuel would set the aluminum hull on fire. They were probably under some obligation to the french not to reveal the existance of the kill codes, and to not use the kill codes so as to make the exocets look really bad, like turning them around and hitting argentine positions. that would really kill the market for exocets, wouldn't it.

      The wikipedia article on exocets documents the falklands/malvinas war, noting that none of the exocets to hit their targets, actually exploded ... here's wikipedia on the three british ships struck by exocets:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Conveyor ...

      "On 25 May 1982 the Atlantic Conveyor was hit by two[2] Exocet missiles fired by a pair of Argentine Super Étendard jet fighter. The ship caught fire, the fire then became uncontrollable. When the fire had burnt out, the ship was boarded but nothing was recoverable and so the decision was made to sink her. It is unclear whether the missile's warhead detonated ..."

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet ...

      "The Exocet that struck the Glamorgan failed to explode, but the unburnt rocket fuel caused a significant fire."

      "The crew of the Sheffield and members of the British Task Force were of the opinion that the missile had exploded, but the official report from the RN Board of Inquiry, now available (2007) on the Internet, states that from the evidence available the warhead did not explode. The damage caused was due to the large kinetic energy of the missile, and the unused missile fuel that ignited on impact."

      imagine what the damage would have been if they had actually exploded!

    22. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unfortunatelly, our "hermanos" only had one left.

      Sounds like somebody named "Hermano" is about to get his ass kicked!

    23. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they are not "their islands", the Islas Malvinas are argentinians.

    24. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by fireylord · · Score: 1

      except for the fact that the carriers' aircraft were pretty useless at strike missions, we aren't talking about a us style carrier group here

    25. Re:Thatcher and Argentina by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Argentina's tech's worked with the code/hardware they had and got the missiles they had in stock ready.
      MI6 went around the world to make it crystal clear to any state or private actor that selling more missiles or parts would not be a healthy option.
      They also bought up any stock on the open market.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  3. Syria, you morons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's what you get for not building the hardware yourself. We on the other hand have been intelligent enough not to outsource our industries to foreign countr... Doh.

  4. It's not very sophisticated after all by paiute · · Score: 4, Funny

    (ring)
    Hello. Syrian Air Defence.
    Hello, Mr. Air Defence. My name is Raji - I mean Bob - from technical support. I have a service request you made on your Acme 2001 Target Tracking Module.
    What? We are not having problem with that -
    Now, now. I have to clear this ticket, Mr. Air Defence. You wouldn't want me to get into trouble, would you?
    Well, no, I guess not.
    Ah. Good then. Please reboot your system and we can get started solving your problem.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    1. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by OldSoldier · · Score: 1

      EXACTLY!!!!

      On the one hand I absolutely love our military for thinking paranoid like this, I feel my tax dollars are being well spent. The slow progression from US building stuff to US outsourcing stuff is an insidious thing that may well catch our military off guard one day if they weren't worrying about it now.

      But the articles were not clear on what the trigger mechanism of the purported Israeli-Syrian kill switch was. The articles talk about hardware back doors, but that leaves me even more confused. Are they assuming the Syrian systems were on the internet and all the Israelis had to do was remotely login to the Syrian air defense system? That seems like the sort of thing a robust firewall can stop or an even more old fashioned internet disconnect switch. And further, what sort of hardware back door would work like that up at the OS level? The ethernet port at the hardware level is continously scanning for kill orders before passing it up the stack to the OS level?

      Alternatively if the kill signal were to be broadcast by radio... seems a faraday cage could solve that.

      I believe this sort of thing can happen some day, but I find it hard to believe that it's happening now without clearer after-the-fact evidence.

    2. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      Radar in a faraday cage?

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    3. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by OldSoldier · · Score: 1

      Control circuitry in a Faraday cage?

      But... fair point... could a radio blast travel up the wires controlling the radar? Or could those be separately shielded from outside influences?

      Alternatively... couldn't a circuit be visually inspected for antennae by a qualified engineer? If the hypothesis is the mobo has a stealth radio receiver circuit on it to catch these kill signals... should be easy to see.

      The articles smack of FUD to me. Sure it *could* happen, but is there evidence that it is?

    4. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by icebrain · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Were I to guess, I'd think that the backdoor routine or whatever would be tucked inside the signal-processing unit of the radar. When the radar picked up specific signals from, say, a jamming aircraft, the backdoor would kick in and shut the radar down.

      Alternatively, there might not have been a back door so much as an unknown-to-the-Syrians bug that the Israelis knew about and exploited... hit the radar with a precise return signal that triggered a buffer overflow or something like that, maybe.

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    5. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by jbeaupre · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The kill switch signal could be on the same frequency as the radar, thus shunted straight into the control circuity. No need for a separate antenna or circuit. The kill switch is just hidden on some IC that also processes the radar signal itself. The right kill signal comes in, the IC shuts down. If the radar has IFF capability, even better. Second signal to monkey with, and even easier to spoof.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    6. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you're thinking about this correctly. You can't have radar without a receiver. The receiver has to deliver its signal to something to interpret it. All that's needed is some hidden function in that part that looks at the incoming signal for a particular pattern and then performs some act of sabotage on the rest of the system or just itself, presumably disguised as an innocent glitch. Incoming plane sends out a signal with its own transmitter that matches the pattern and presto, the system is blinded. Or maybe it goes down completely. Or maybe it just reports everything as it should, just shifted 100 meters up and to the right. There's no need for a separate, hidden, receiver, just some back door obfuscated somewhere in the complex design sitting and waiting for the right input. That input can only be blocked by blinding the system and, if it's blind, it's no good.

    7. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Nitpick: The if the scenario happened as you described, the social engineer would be Israeli, not Indian, and so would have mistakenly given his name as something like Yeshua, not Raji, and he would need to pretend to have an Arabic-sounding name like Mohammed, not an English one like Bob. So it should be more like:

      "My name is Yeshua - I mean Mohammed -- from technical support."

      And the whole thing should be in Syrian Arabic too, of course.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    8. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      Couldn't you send a specifically patterned jamming pulse that would trigger a subroutine in the code? I would assume it would be possible at least, even if that's not what happened.

    9. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by nmos · · Score: 1

      Alternatively... couldn't a circuit be visually inspected for antennae by a qualified engineer? If the hypothesis is the mobo has a stealth radio receiver circuit on it to catch these kill signals... should be easy to see.

      A radar IS a radio receiver. Think about it, it transmits a radio signal and listens for the echo and sends whatever is received to a computer of some sort for analysis. I don't think it's inconceivable that an aircraft with a radar transmitter (jamming pod?) operating at the same frequency could transmit a special code on that frequency that triggers a back door or even a simple buffer overflow.

    10. Re:It's not very sophisticated after all by makuabob · · Score: 2, Informative

      Need to mod jbeaupre up one more point; he is not just "interesting," he's right! I worked some years w/ military trainers where 'tactics' were practiced,... and practiced,... and practiced,... The 'kill' switch would very likely have been in the IFF coding. The RADAR hits the plane with an IFF "interrogate" code and the plane squawks back, "These 'droids aren't the 'droids you're looking for." The RADAR agrees and goes to sleep, never to awaken!

  5. Lesson learned? by miffo.swe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Dont buy important technology from foreign countries, do it yourself. Especially if you ever under any way, shape or form could cross paths with said foreign country.

    I think this should be a really big wakeup call to european countries that relies 100% on american tech, both on hardware and software.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
    1. Re:Lesson learned? by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lesson learned? You must be joking.

      The military/corporate complex won't be happy until EVERYTHING is made overseas. It's better for their short-term budgets, you see. They know they would be first against the wall if there was ever any real problems here so why care if we're caught with our pants down militarily later on.

    2. Re:Lesson learned? by OzPeter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Dont buy important technology from foreign countries, do it yourself. Especially if you ever under any way, shape or form could cross paths with said foreign country.

      And in TFA they say that only 20% of chips are manufactured in the US - so that makes it kinda hard not to buy goods from foreign countries.

      However what you are suggesting is that 100% of goods used by the US military should be made in the US - and that might be a good reason in itself as that would certainly stimulate the US economy

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    3. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you a retard ?

    4. Re:Lesson learned? by tokul · · Score: 1

      I think this should be a really big wakeup call to european countries that relies 100% on american tech, both on hardware and software.

      Technically Siria is not in Europe, but in Middle East. Europeans don't have 100% dependency on American stuff. They have Eurofighter, Airbus, Heckler & Koch, locally build tanks, self propelled howizers and AFVs

    5. Re:Lesson learned? by EvilBudMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      --They know they would be first against the wall--

      No they don't know that or they wouldn't be doing this in the first place. I agree with your other assessments of short term thinking but they think they will get away with it and we will be left holding the bag. How many Nazi war criminals got away percentage wise? Few? Half? Most all of them?

    6. Re:Lesson learned? by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Well, they can't. There's not a chip fab anywhere in Syria. Hell, there aren't even any in the US, anymore.

    7. Re:Lesson learned? by Trent+Hawkins · · Score: 3, Funny

      Dont buy important technology from foreign countries, do it yourself. Especially if you ever under any way, shape or form could cross paths with said foreign country. I think this should be a really big wakeup call to european countries that relies 100% on american tech, both on hardware and software.

      Why? Is America planning to invade France?

    8. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately DIY doesn't work so well when you need advanced aircraft and ships that can launch them. It probably takes tens of thousands of engineers to design and manufacture an F-22, most countries don't have that many, so how can they DIY?

    9. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stopped by there in '45, decided it wasn't worth sticking around.

    10. Re:Lesson learned? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's assuming you can do it yourself. Syria is hardly a hotbed of industry and innovation, and most of the Middle East is even worse. E.g. when Libya gave up their "nuclear and biological weapons program", which had been reasonably well funded and resourced over several decades had lead to only one viable weapon, a landmine spiked with human faeces.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/dec/21/politics.libya

      Libya's biological weapons programme too has suffered from similar mismanagement and lack of funds, say sources; at best succeeding in producing munitions boobytrapped with human faeces that can be fatal if it enters the blood stream.

      So it's not too surprising these sorts of countries decided to buy stuff from the USSR instead. Unfortunately for them the Russians had a cunning plan with weapons. Soviet weapons systems actually came in two variants - a high end one to be made in peace time and a stripped down one to be made in a war quickly and in larger quantities. The export customers got the stripped down version, known as the 'monkey model'.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_model

      The term was popularized in the West by Viktor Suvorov, in Inside the Soviet Army. Suvorov states that the simplified monkey model was designed for massive production in wartime, to replace front-line stocks if a war should last for several weeks. In peacetime, Soviet industry gained experience building both standard and monkey-model variants, the latter being for sale "to the 'brothers' and 'friends' of the USSR as the very latest equipment available." He also cites the benefit of disinformation when an exported monkey model fell into the hands of Western intelligence, who "naturally gained a completely false impression of the true combat capabilities of the BMP-1 and of Soviet tanks".

      I.e. the monkey model looked the same or similar to the domestic version but was cheaper to make and had far inferior capabilities.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    11. Re:Lesson learned? by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "Why? Is America planning to invade France?"

      Of course not. There are no "plans" to invade France - we just show up with guns and the French Army surrenders. Although they we might have to tap them on the shoulder to get their attention - they've always previously surrendered while facing west.

      And for those who would draw a negative example with Iraq, I'd point out that the likelihood of developing suicide bombers from the native French population is, well, nil.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    12. Re:Lesson learned? by afidel · · Score: 1

      BS, there are plenty of fab plants still in the US. Micron, IBM and Intel definitely have production US plants and those are just the ones I know of off the top of my head.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    13. Re:Lesson learned? by Mark_in_Brazil · · Score: 1

      Dont buy important technology from foreign countries, do it yourself. Especially if you ever under any way, shape or form could cross paths with said foreign country.

      I think this should be a really big wakeup call to european countries that relies 100% on american tech, both on hardware and software.

      I found it very upsetting to learn that the Brazilian government set up a PKI, but bought all the components for the vault with the root private key from US vendors.

      I went inside that vault to install the network synchronization server that gets the time from the Brazilian National Observatory and makes sure the machines inside the vault are set to Brazilian Legal Time, and I was impressed with the security measures the Brazilian government had taken, but I was just shocked that they would buy components, for example, from a foreign company that has ties to the NSA and is called Spy-R-Us (Spyrus).

      In the end, I doubt the foreign-bought components have compromised the security of the Brazilian government's root CA private key, but I was surprised that there wasn't more of a push to use Brazilian-made equipment. I apparently wasn't the only one, because Brazil created a project to develop its own open cryptographic platform. It's called the "João-de-Barro Project," named for a South American bird that builds its own house out of mud. The software parts of that project have been used to generate a new AC root keypair. I believe a Brazilian-designed HSM already exists, but I'm a little bit behind, because I stopped working actively with cryptographic hardware a couple of years ago. But I think this might be it (page in Portuguese, for obvious reasons).

      --
      "It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
    14. Re:Lesson learned? by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      However what you are suggesting is that 100% of goods used by the US military should be made in the US - and that might be a good reason in itself as that would certainly stimulate the US economy.

      Indeed. I've never understood any decisions to do otherwise. For example when the military wanted to replace their standard sidearm (The Colt M1911 - 84 years in service, but it was due for a change) they ended up going with a Beretta!?!?!

      An Italian company. For a handgun. Now, that's not to knock the Beretta M92. It's a good gun, but there are equally good American guns that would have done just fine. Most police departments (not technically military, but still goverment) have also gone with Glocks - an Austrian company. Ruger, Springfield, Colt, and Smith & Wesson are all American companies, and all make top notch handguns. Between all those I'm sure they could have gone with a domestic company and kept that money within our own economy.

      I'm sure the same thing has happened time and time again. At some point we are going to have to start making stuff again (and buying our own stuff so that we bolster our own economy). From a world economy point of view, China, Europe, and the other countries aren't going to be content forever to just keep shipping us cheap crap to put into Wal-mart while all we do is sit around doing things for each other in our "service oriented economy".

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    15. Re:Lesson learned? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      "I'd point out that the likelihood of developing suicide bombers from the native French population is, well, nil."

      I'd recommend that you google around for the phrase "Propaganda of the deed". Reasonably enough, French anarchists generally preferred to avoid absorbing their own explosions; but they had a more than adequate taste for risks and high explosives.

    16. Re:Lesson learned? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I think this should be a really big wakeup call to european countries that relies 100% on american tech, both on hardware and software.

      I take offense at this, considering that without "American tech" Europe would be Germany. It's not enough that we have to save your bacon, but you want us to pay for your missile defense, and you're still rude.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    17. Re:Lesson learned? by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 1

      The problem is that American companies act like jackasses toward the government. Not only do they tend to ridiculously inflate costs (especially American defense industries) but they also take weird ideological stances. I am thinking, of course, about Barrett firearms.

      I don't know why the government would want to do business with a domestic corporation like that.

      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    18. Re:Lesson learned? by conureman · · Score: 2, Funny

      Really, I don't think the Terrans are prepared for a war with the Sirians right now. They out number us all to hell, and our economy's kind of creaky already. Try diplomacy instead. And low budget secret agent stuff during the delay.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    19. Re:Lesson learned? by aminorex · · Score: 1

      Warning for the US which has >90% of its call processing run by Israeli devices.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    20. Re:Lesson learned? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Although they we might have to tap them on the shoulder to get their attention - they've always previously surrendered while facing west.

      I believe you mean East, the US is to the West of France, across that body of water named the Atlantic Ocean, look at a map, its all right there. Unless you are meaning they were facing West with a pleading look on their faces when they surrendered.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    21. Re:Lesson learned? by Nathrael · · Score: 1

      I think this should be a really big wakeup call to european countries that relies 100% on american tech, both on hardware and software.

      Because Europe would ever cross paths with the US.

      --
      A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
    22. Re:Lesson learned? by gbjbaanb · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I take offense at that, considering that without British tech, America wouldn't have either radar or jet fighters to jam in the first place and you'd be reading slashdot on a bulletin board transmitted over the telegraph network.

      Oh, except you wouldn't have computers to read them on anyway as that's a British invention too.

      Besides all that, you're an arrogant American, and you're calling someone else rude?

    23. Re:Lesson learned? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Dont buy important technology from foreign countries, do it yourself. Especially if you ever under any way, shape or form could cross paths with said foreign country.

      I think this should be a really big wakeup call to european countries that relies 100% on american tech, both on hardware and software.

      Which European countries rely 100% on American technology? I offer the Tornado, Jaguar, Eurofighter, Rafale, Mirage and others as proof to the contrary.

    24. Re:Lesson learned? by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      the US is to the West of France

      The US is also to the East of France...

    25. Re:Lesson learned? by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Now you have gone and ruined it for the GP. Here he was making a statement and you have to go and fuck it all up for him with facts.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    26. Re:Lesson learned? by conureman · · Score: 1

      A whole lotta Algerians immigrated to France. If we let the Saudis build the schools, and put wire around their ghettos (for their protection), who know what the recruits'll look like?

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    27. Re:Lesson learned? by ubercam · · Score: 1

      There are any number of reasons why this might have happened, here are a few:

      - There might have been diplomatic/foreign trade considerations to take into account, like a large trade deficit with Italy.
      - Perhaps the company that makes the Beretta tendered the lowest bid (the most likely scenario in my opinion).
      - Perhaps a "Buy American" clause would have had the US dragged before a WTO tribunal by the countries that were shut out of the bidding process and they wanted to avoid that.

      I do understand where you're coming from though, because in terms of national security, military tech SHOULD be designed and manufactured at home, perhaps even in house (i.e. directly by the military). Wasn't there some Cisco network equipment made in China that had back doors built in? I think I remember hearing about that a little while ago. That obviously has some security consequences, how dire depends on who uses it and where.

    28. Re:Lesson learned? by conureman · · Score: 1

      I had this pointed out by a friend, who shall remain nameless, to protect his tin-foil wearin' identity. he was pointing out the ROM chips, and the Ethernet chips, but he asserted that they had special Mossad engineering features. If I chose to believe that, I've noted it would relieve a lot of the cognitive dissonance regarding our U.S.-Israeli foreign relations, say, if they had a "special relationship" with the CIA, and maybe had us over a barrel with the equipment. Lots of room for a secret Fab out where they filmed that moonwalk stuff, as well, we don't even have to outsource.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    29. Re:Lesson learned? by WinterSolstice · · Score: 1

      Not to start a massive flame war here, but what is it with the Glock love?

      The people down at my local shooting range are all totally in love with the Glocks, but I freaking hate them. They're ugly, they're uncomfortable, they jam, and they're expensive. I put 10 boxes of ammo through 3 different models while a friend down there tried to convince me that they were far superior.

      I personally like my Colt a whole lot better, and my Smith and Wesson even more than that. Berettas are awesome though, and I have to say that it seems to be a very comfortable pistol. I haven't done all that much shooting with one though.

      I'm sure there is an appeal to them - but I'd love to hear what it is.

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
    30. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aha! You used circular logic on him!

    31. Re:Lesson learned? by gtall · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Yeah, you are right, 'cause the Americans weren't also working on the same stuff...stupid Americans, as soon as they see someone else working on something they stop and give up, right?

    32. Re:Lesson learned? by anegg · · Score: 1

      I believe that most government firearms purchases, including the military's, are done through competitions that include function and price. Apparently there weren't "equally good" "American" guns that would do just fine, at least not when measured against the military's stated specifications in the case of the Beretta M9. Incidentally, the Beretta is made in the United States (Maryland, interestingly enough). So "we" (I assume you are a US citizen) *do* have the manufacturing capability, as well as the design, in "our" hot little hands.

      Glocks used as police weapons is a bit different. Glock managed to make the first commercially successful polymer frame handgun. That, coupled with certain functional benefits (the Glock's safety devices) made them stand out from other handguns produced by "American" companies. Several companies, including Springfield, make polymer frame handguns now, but didn't at the time that Glocks become popular as a police weapon. And no company at the time made a weapon that was as functionally effective. To understand the benefits of the Glock safeties, you have to do a bit of shooting and a bit of reading up on the practical issues involved with carrying and handling loaded firearms around civilian populations.

      (Disclaimer)I personally have a Glock. I purchased it 17 years or so ago, specifically because of its advantages over contemporary products from other manufacturers.

      The United States does have manufacturing capabilities, which are used all the time to produce lots of goods, both "low tech" and "high tech." We (speaking as a US citizen) also have an economic system that searches for efficiency. For now, it is more efficient to import many things from other countries where they are made according to our specifications, probably using equipment we designed. I'm certain that when the cost of doing business that way increases beyond the point where it is cheaper, that more products will be manufactured domestically.

    33. Re:Lesson learned? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      I think you wouldn't like to meet the French Resistance. The Nazis didn't.

    34. Re:Lesson learned? by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Mainly it's their simplicity.

      Glock was originally one of the first polymer frame pistols. Polymer frames don't require as much maintenance as there is no risk of rust. They also tend to be more comfortable to shoot as the frame "gives" some on a shot compared to a metal frame.

      They also featured a simple striker-fired ignition system. No hammer, no safety, just rack the slide and it's ready to shoot. For a lot of police officers, many who don't shoot often, and many who were used to simple revolvers, that simpleness in operation made for a good gun at the time.

      These days however, just about every company that makes handguns have a polymer frame model, and many of those are now striker fired much like the Glock. Ruger for example has had polymer framed guns for a while (I actually have a P-95 which does well for me, but it's a traditional double-action hammer fired polymer gun), but recently introduced the SR9 which is a striker-fired polymer much like the Glock. S&W also now has the M&P (Military and Police - you can guess who they're trying to market to) which is also a polymer striker-fired gun.

      Springfield has their name on the XD which is polymer/striker, but unfortunately that's an imported gun (made in Croatia I believe, but I'm not positive) that they merely brand under their name.

      So while there were originally reasons for the Glock choice, most of the features are now available in domestically made weapons that I'd argue are better guns (I'd certainly rather have an SR9 or an M&P over a Glock), but at this point Glock-love is almost ingrained into the law enforcement mindset.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    35. Re:Lesson learned? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      You call it missile defense, we call it Star Wars. We didn't ask for it, we don't want it, we don't need it.

      It was your former president that lobbied the kiss-US-ass governments of Poland and Check Republic to allow him to plant that shit in their territories. By the way, with intense opposition of their own populations and the rest of the Europeans.

      Save your money. Spend it in useful things like healthcare and education. You need them.

    36. Re:Lesson learned? by Erikderzweite · · Score: 1

      French Resistance is a joke, really. Especially if you compare it to partisan movement in occupied USSR countries (especially Belarus). Then again, most French have survived the war quite happily while Belarus has lost almost a third of its population.

    37. Re:Lesson learned? by Synn · · Score: 1

      Can't comment on Berettas, but police agencies started switching from revolvers to semi-autos in the early 90's after a couple very public incidents. Glocks at that time were far and above superior to anything else on the market. You could freeze them, bury them, shoot thousands of rounds through them, use them as a hammer and they'd keep on working.

      It would've been dumb to just "buy American" when there's a better choice out there. And really, this forced American companies to come out with superior products themselves. I've owned 2 Glocks for about 10 years and last year picked up a Springfield Arms(the guys that make the M1911) XD9. The XD series of guns are just as solid as Glocks and cheaper to boot.

      They're great guns and hopefully they'll make their way into government departments. But American companies need to win based on merit, not just because they're American. We can definitely compete and win when it comes to quality.

    38. Re:Lesson learned? by WinterSolstice · · Score: 1

      Ok, so that lack of a safety is deliberate. I know when I asked they told me it didn't have one (and I couldn't find one) but for the life of me I was unable to imagine that as a *selling* point.

      Ok - well, fair enough. I suppose to each their own, right? :)

      If you're right that a lot of police officers shoot rarely, that's pretty scary. It would explain why the safety officer in a concealed weapons class would shoot his foot though...

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
    39. Re:Lesson learned? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      No, it was not a joke. It played an important role against the Nazis. The partisans in Eastern countries were extremely fierce but that doesn't make the French Resistance a joke.

    40. Re:Lesson learned? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      I think this should be a really big wakeup call to european countries that relies 100% on american tech, both on hardware and software.

      Yeah, because we all know how the Americans would NEVER come to Europe's aid in an emergency.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    41. Re:Lesson learned? by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      Whoops - I started thinking of the French retreating toward the west, then changed the wording to "looking" but forgot the change in direction. Just another dumb American who doesn't know his geography, I guess.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    42. Re:Lesson learned? by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Ok, so that lack of a safety is deliberate. I know when I asked they told me it didn't have one (and I couldn't find one) but for the life of me I was unable to imagine that as a *selling* point.

      It's actually a selling point on a lot of handguns (I own 8 handguns and of those only half have a safety). Without getting into the history of it, when double action firearms were invented it was noticed that you really didn't need a safety. Essentially, you could leave the gun uncocked for carry, and on your first shot (or every shot on a revolver or any "double action only" gun) the trigger pull would not just release the hammer (as in older single actions), but it would cock the hammer before releasing it in the same motion. What that meant was that the trigger pull was much, much heavier (and longer). It took a pretty deliberate action to fire the shot - no bumping the gun and it going off. So a lot of guns started coming only with decockers - if you had the gun manually cocked you could press that lever to safely drop the hammer, but it's safe position was just hammer-down. This was an advantage to anyone in a combat situation because, particularly for inexperienced shooters, a lot of times they'd forget to flip the safety off and it would become a hindrance.

      Now, a striker fired system is a little different - there is no hammer to cock (and hence the reason why there isn't even a decocker lever). Instead, the spring force is reversed on the firing pin (ie, normally the firing pin spring holds it off the round - but on a striker fired gun the spring pushes the pin towards the round and the sear holds back the firing pin/striker itself rather than a hammer that strikes the pin). Still though, that same mentality has stuck, and so we effectively just makeup for no safety with a heavier trigger pull - usually achieved by having the trigger pull back the striker a short additional distance from it's half-cocked position before it can fall.

      One drawback though is that since a striker has to be half-cocked before each trigger pull, there is no double-tap capability as with a standard double-action. Basic simplification is that if you snap on a bad round, chances are it'll still go off on a second strike. On a double action since you perform the whole cocking action with the trigger pull, if you snap on a bad round you can just pull the trigger again to give it another try. With a striker-fired action if you snap on bad round there is no recoil to leave the gun half-cocked, and so to clear the gun and fire again you'd have to rack the slide. That occurrence isn't all that common though, and so it's just a risk most departments live with.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    43. Re:Lesson learned? by icebrain · · Score: 1

      If you're right that a lot of police officers shoot rarely, that's pretty scary.

      Quite a number of them only shoot the minimum required to qualify. I wouldn't be surprised if many of said officers didn't maintain their weapons properly, either.

      I'd guess that the average firearms enthusiast/CCL holder probably shoots a fair bit more than most police officers. The officers that do make the effort shoot a lot typically have to do it on their own dollar, especially with department budget cuts and increasing ammo costs.

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    44. Re:Lesson learned? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      So it's not too surprising these sorts of countries decided to buy stuff from the USSR instead. Unfortunately for them the Russians had a cunning plan with weapons. Soviet weapons systems actually came in two variants - a high end one to be made in peace time and a stripped down one to be made in a war quickly and in larger quantities. The export customers got the stripped down version, known as the 'monkey model'.

      I.e. the monkey model looked the same or similar to the domestic version but was cheaper to make and had far inferior capabilities.

      Yet, the times the West has faced Russian hardware (I.E. Vietnam, various Middle East conflicts), the hardware has, on average, performed pretty well against equivalent Western hardware. Which means that either a) the monkey models weren't all that less capable, or b) the real hardware was a helluva lot more capable than any source informed us. IOW, option 'a' is the one congruent with other sources of data.
       
      (BTW: Using Suvorov as a source for information on the Soviet military is roughly on par with using Velikovsky as a reference on astrophysics.)

    45. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus one of the reasons the Europeans use American hardware is so that we can more easily integrate forces if we ever end up in a big war.

    46. Re:Lesson learned? by WinterSolstice · · Score: 1

      Interesting perspective. Thank you :)

      It doesn't change my opinion that a safety is a good thing to have, but it certainly makes more sense than simply "It doesn't need one" and "It's faster than fumbling with a safety".

      My favorite safety is still the 'grip safety' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_(firearms)#Grip_safety just because it encourages you to actually hold your firearm firmly.
      I do like a nice visible indicator (like the selector switch on an HK-MP5 variant or AR-15(M4) variant) but with a pistol that would be a bit obnoxious considering that they are typically drawn from a holster and not held 'ready'.

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
    47. Re:Lesson learned? by WinterSolstice · · Score: 1

      Oooh - that *is* bad. I'm glad I donated to our local police officer's weapons training program.

      As an 'enthusiast' (and I sometimes compete informally), I probably fire about 300 rounds a week between pistols and rifles. That's centerfire ammunition - more would be cost-prohibitive.

      I use a nice and modestly accurate airsoft AEG rig to practice the rest of the time, since that is CRAZY cheap to operate.

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
    48. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My friends Glock has a safety. It's built into the trigger, so that you deactivate the safety by pulling back on the trigger. So, effectively it has no safety, but it has one _technically_. Enough to make it acceptable to most gun regulations in most locales. Just like all those guns that aren't technically fully automatic. No sir, you'd have to modify the gun to make it fully automatic. It just happens that the gun is designed in such a way that it's not very hard to do.

    49. Re:Lesson learned? by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      Not weird at all. Perfectly logical, to anyone who believes a government should be limited in scope. Admittedly, you may not understand such a thing, but still.

    50. Re:Lesson learned? by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      Glock, the Austrian version of the Teutonic masterpiece known as the USP that works just as well and is $300 cheaper.

    51. Re:Lesson learned? by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      H&K. Because you suck, and we hate you.

    52. Re:Lesson learned? by wall0159 · · Score: 1

      "that would certainly stimulate the US economy"

      How would that square with the various free-trade agreements the US has been pushing in recent decades?
      (geniune question)

    53. Re:Lesson learned? by mcgrew · · Score: 1, Informative

      Is America planning to invade France?

      In 1980 nobody would have dreamed we'd be invading Afghanistan; we were supplying the Taliban with arms to fight the Soviets with.

    54. Re:Lesson learned? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      > Yet, the times the West has faced Russian hardware (I.E. Vietnam, various Middle East conflicts), the hardware has, on average, performed pretty well against equivalent Western hardware.

      That's not true. The regular Vietnamese army by and large lost when it fought the Americans head on. The Viet Cong were basically able to take over the country using terror tactics and declining support for the conflict forced a US pull out. Only then did North Vietnam send its army to conquer South Vietnam.

      Back when the US was still fighting, they could not do that, because it would be obliterated

      E.g. here

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive#North_Vietnam

      The leadership in Hanoi must have been initially despondent about the outcome of their great gamble.[151][152] Their first and most ambitious goal, producing a general uprising, had ended in a dismal failure. In total, approximately 85,000–100,000 communist troops had participated in the initial onslaught and in the follow-up phases. Overall, during the "Border Battles" of 1967 and the nine-month winter-spring campaign, 45,267 communist troops had been killed in action.[153]

      The keys to the failure of Tet are not difficult to discern. Hanoi had underestimated the strategic mobility of the allied forces, which allowed them to redeploy at will to threatened areas; their battle plan was too complex and difficult to coordinate, which was amply demonstrated by the 30 January attacks; their violation of the principle of mass, attacking everywhere instead of concentrating their forces on a few specific targets, allowed their forces to be defeated piecemeal; the launching of massed attacks headlong into the teeth of vastly superior firepower; and last, but not least, the incorrect assumptions upon which the entire campaign was based.[154] According to General Tran Van Tra: "We did not correctly evaluate the specific balance of forces between ourselves and the enemy, did not fully realize that the enemy still had considerable capabilities, and that our capabilities were limited, and set requirements that were beyond our actual strength

      Almost half of the North Vietnamese troops in the Tet Offensive died and none of their military objectives were met. The US had better technology, better firepower and was more reactive to events.

      In the Middle East it was even more uneven. The Israelis using Western equipment have done very well e.g.

      http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj89/win89/hurley.html

      The US army totally outclassed the Iraqi army when it fought - thousands of times more Iraqi soldiers died than American ones in the Gulf War and many more only survived because they deserted. In fact it was the perception that Soviet equipment is worthless that became common after the Gulf War that lead to the argument that the US was only facing "Monkey Model" hardware, not the real stuff.

      Actually I think the real explanation was that the North Vietnamese and Iraqis had "Monkey Model" societies compared to the US, i.e. tyrannies that are unable to process information properly or engineer effective armaments. That means that their armies have a tendency to get slaughtered when they fight determined democracies.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    55. Re:Lesson learned? by turtleshadow · · Score: 1

      Isn't this the plot of "The International?" The arms dealer sold the Chinese missiles but also then sold the counter measure at the same time to the opposite side?

    56. Re:Lesson learned? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      very true, however if invading France, I cannot see the US coming from the East. There are just too many countries on the way that don't seem to like us much.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    57. Re:Lesson learned? by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

      "Which European countries rely 100% on American technology? I offer the Tornado, Jaguar, Eurofighter, Rafale, Mirage and others as proof to the contrary."

      Most countries in europe has computers. Almost all of them are running Windows and the PC is manufactured by Dell, HP or some other American company. I would say you really would have to search for a country that hasnt got american tech in most sensitive places.

      The real problem isnt really buying US stuff, the real problem is the US pulling stunts like theese. I could understand someone using it when under severe threat but swinging it around like a pillow fighting cheerleader is to beg for people to avoid american parts like the plague.

      --
      HTTP/1.1 400
    58. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why they'd never expect it!

    59. Re:Lesson learned? by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 1

      It is a weird ideological stance for a corporation to take. It's a loss of business to no particular gain.

      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    60. Re:Lesson learned? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Yet, the times the West has faced Russian hardware (I.E. Vietnam, various Middle East conflicts), the hardware has, on average, performed pretty well against equivalent Western hardware.

      That's not true. The regular Vietnamese army by and large lost when it fought the Americans head on.

      Note I said hardware vs. hardware - consider the air war and the Russian supplied SAM's.
       
       

      Actually I think the real explanation was that the North Vietnamese and Iraqis had "Monkey Model" societies compared to the US, i.e. tyrannies that are unable to process information properly or engineer effective armaments. That means that their armies have a tendency to get slaughtered when they fight determined democracies.

      Yet the Soviets fought well in WWII as did the equally tyrannical Germans. In Korea the tyrannies acquitted themselves admirably as well.
       
      I suspect the unequal outcomes in Vietnam and in Iraq was that as much a product of training, maintenance, and logistics (and to a lesser extent technology*) as anything else. (This is less clear in Vietnam, but abundantly clear in Iraq.) Even many 'experts' fail to completely consider the effects of these things.
       
      *Not just high tech, but basic tech such as communications as well.

    61. Re:Lesson learned? by Trent+Hawkins · · Score: 1

      In 1980 nobody would have dreamed we'd be invading Afghanistan; we were supplying the Taliban with arms to fight the Soviets with.

      That's because the Soviets beat them to it. In 1978 I bet there were all sorts of American plans to invade Afghanistan.

    62. Re:Lesson learned? by FailedTheTuringTest · · Score: 1

      Zut alors! We are surrounded!

    63. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FWIW, wikipedia has a concise description of Glock pistol safety mechanisms, including ILS available on recent models.

      - T

    64. Re:Lesson learned? by WinterSolstice · · Score: 1

      That is a pretty good drop/bump safety.

      And apparently it works great as long as you're not a moron :D

      This sure looks like a Glock... doesn't it?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0&feature=youtube_gdata

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
    65. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm one of those oddballs who refuses to install Flash, so no youtube goodness for me. Thanks, anyway. However, the title and a few comments lead me to believe I've seen the video before - it was on at least one TV show if it's the one I'm remembering. I have no idea if it was a Glock in the one I saw, but it wouldn't surprise me as so many PDs have them.

      - T

    66. Re:Lesson learned? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      European countries that relies 100% on American tech, both on hardware and software.

      Being which ones? I don't know a single one. What I know though, is that Germany, France, Italy the UK and Russia are huge in military tech export. Especially Germany. I would not be surprised, if the US actually partially bought its specialized tech here.

      And the chips are made in China/Korea/Taiwan/etc anyway.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    67. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well... not again any time soon, no.

    68. Re:Lesson learned? by dajak · · Score: 1

      US military requirements for chips do not exceed 20% of worldwide production capacity. The US military could use only locally produced chips if it wanted to, but at the expense of more taxpayer money, and stimulation of the economy is a bad reason to waste money. Preparing yourself for the eventuality that the whole world will turn against you is not a sound Keynesian investment; It's just plain paranoid. Even the ability to take on the rest 0f the world together with you allies is an unprecedented and unique luxury.

      ASML (Netherlands), Nikon, and Canon (both Japanese) together have a market share of over 95% in semiconductor lithography machines. Strategically this seems to me more important than semiconductor manufacturing using the machines of one of these three suppliers. Both countries are allies of the US, and will most likely remain allies in the foreseeable future if the US behaves not too unreasonably. Intel and AMD are US companies, and design state-of-the-art chips in the US. There is hardly an immediate risk of the US losing access to knowledge about semiconductor manufacturing, and the country most able to embed kill switches into other country's military hardware is still the US.

    69. Re:Lesson learned? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, in that movie it was even the Israelis and Syrians too.

      Sheesh!

      CK.

    70. Re:Lesson learned? by dajak · · Score: 1

      I'd say the system of government is pretty much irrelevant to the dedication people show fighting for their country. Odds are most important to morale. People want to survive, and they want to win. I think the Iraqis would have fought well if they would have faced a limited invasion, and would have believed that the US would retreat if things didn't go smoothly. Instead it was obvious that they were going to be massacred by an army with better technology, training, maintenance, and logistics, which is a very good reason for running away as soon as the opportunity presents itself. Morale made the Iraq invasion a cakewalk for the US, and better technology, training, maintenance, and logistics directly affected morale. Without the morale effect, US would also have dominated, but it would hardly have been a cakewalk.

      Weaker democratic countries may also fight much stronger tyrannies badly (as the first years of WWII for instance show) if they think they are on their own against overwhelming odds, while they may fight heroically if they think a stronger ally will join them if they hold out for long enough. This is exactly why the appeasement by Chamberlain in the 1938 Czechoslovakia crisis was so damaging; It severely harmed morale on the European continent. On the other side, many veteran German units also fought badly in the end of WWII in many places because they had lost the belief they were winning and simply wanted the war to be over.

  6. Trojan kill switch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whatever happened to Paris, Helen, and Hector's wife anyway? Did they get away and start a new Trojan empire somewhere else??

    1. Re:Trojan kill switch by Asklepius+M.D. · · Score: 1

      iirc, Paris was killed by Philoctetes, Helen was reclaimed by Menelaus (who decided she was too darn pretty to kill), and Hector's wife Andromache was taken as a concubine by Neoptolemus. Andromache is one of the few Trojans to avoid a tragic death. She eventually became queen of Epirus and died of old age.

      --
      He who would be a man, must be a nonconformist. -- Emerson
  7. Outsourcing by whisper_jeff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You get what you deserve when you outsource...

    Seriously, I understand the cost benefits of going with the lowest quote and all but sometimes it's best to keep things "in house" to ensure quality and accountability. And that applies to companies all the way up to governments. In this case, when dealing with national defense, it especially applies to governments...

    1. Re:Outsourcing by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      I think it's valuable to point out that, at least where small arms are concerned, the US military is quite aware of that. While many foreign designs have been adopted, the companies are required to establish production facilities in the US.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    2. Re:Outsourcing by gad_zuki! · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Where do you expect countries run by dictators (Syria has been under martial law since 1963 and more or less a client state for Iran) that have shit for university, shit for engineering, and oppression as the norm to get advanced anti-missile systems? They cant design their own. They would be starting with 1950s tech at best.

      They knew they were taking a chance with foreign made equipment, but, they really dont have a choice.

      Also, its worth noting that there may not have been an intentional backdoor/killswitch, this could have been a hack known to the US and others but not to Syria:

      http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/10/how-israel-spoo/

    3. Re:Outsourcing by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Where do you expect countries run by dictators (Syria has been under martial law since 1963 and more or less a client state for Iran) that have shit for university, shit for engineering, and oppression as the norm to get advanced anti-missile systems? They cant design their own. They would be starting with 1950s tech at best.

      Good!

      They knew they were taking a chance with foreign made equipment, but, they really dont have a choice.

      Good!

      Looks like "the system" is working.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Outsourcing by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Anyone care to even BEGIN to estimate how much of the electronics components used by the U.S. military are manufactured in China and other foreign countries? For that matter, is the U.S. even CAPABLE of manufacturing most electronics components anymore? I don't recall seeing a so much as a chip, much less larger component, made here since the 1980's.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  8. This will stimulate growth in the weapons industry by samjam · · Score: 0

    This will stimulate growth in the weapons industry, and therefore growth in espionage operations, increase the likelyhood of serious diplomatic incidents and therefore War.

    That's War with a capital W were the enemy has equipment that is not under your control.

    So it's a nice idea, but it only works in the short term - i.e. until you use it. Then the clock ticks to when it's useless.

  9. Don't buy weapons from your enemies? by Seth+Kriticos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously, if you are going to wage war, it is a very bad idea to buy non trivial weapons systems from your enemy or his allies. Actually it's a bad idea to buy it from anyone that is not 100% on your side. Best would be to build it yourself.

    Those amateur war mongering folks down there. Still don't think that anyone is learning out of it, I mean, where are the chips for NATO equipment come from? Oh yea, who manufactures them cheapest. How does this make sense in the context?

    1. Re:Don't buy weapons from your enemies? by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      This is why it's so important for Taiwan/ROC to continue programs like the Indigenous Defense Fighter, but the KMT is too busy irrumating the PRC to pay any attention to real interests of their own constituency.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    2. Re:Don't buy weapons from your enemies? by the+linux+geek · · Score: 1

      Why? Its irrelevant anyway, the only way the ROC can win a military conflict with the PRC is to launch a preemptive attack on the Communist SRBM facilities. If every airfield and military harbor on the island is hit by SRBM's (there are over a thousand sitting there) it becomes a lot harder to muster an effective resistance.

    3. Re:Don't buy weapons from your enemies? by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      Actually it's a bad idea to buy it from anyone that is not 100% on your side.

      True. Also, history teaches us that today's 100% ally can easily become tomorrow's 100% enemy.

    4. Re:Don't buy weapons from your enemies? by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      Taiwan does have a modest missile defense system based on PAC-2s & -3s that protects the highest value targets. Also, though I wouldn't depend on the integrity of the current USDoD to follow through with it, there is technically also Oplan 5077-04.

      Self-sufficiency, in any case, is never irrelevant. It's better to have something and hope to be able to field it than to have nothing and just sit around and wait for the end.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    5. Re:Don't buy weapons from your enemies? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      "irrumating.

      Slashdot's word of the day. And no, that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    6. Re:Don't buy weapons from your enemies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it's a bad idea to buy it from anyone that is not 100% on your side. Best would be to build it yourself.

      Best to build them yourself full stop, regardless of whether or not they're apparently on your side. You'd think that with all of the co-operation they've been through the US and UK would be fairly tight but that didn't stop arguments between the UK and US over exactly this kind of thing.

      They might be buddies now, but you never know what will happen in the future...

    7. Re:Don't buy weapons from your enemies? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      This is why it's so important for Taiwan/ROC to continue programs like the Indigenous Defense Fighter, but the KMT is too busy irrumating the PRC to pay any attention to real interests of their own constituency.

      Of course the KTM doesn't care about something Indigenous. Afterall 2 million mainland KMT Chinese invaded Formosa and subjugated 20 million Formosans. There is a reason Formosans want to remember 28 February 1947, "Taiwan's Holocaust".

      Falcon

  10. All of this has happened before, and ... by sinator · · Score: 0

    Frakkin' Baltar!

    --
    Three Step Plan:
    1. Take over the world.
    2. Get a lot of cookies.
    3. Eat the cookies.
  11. Syrians have U.S. military hardware ? by ivan_w · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does that mean that the U.S. provided *Syria* with sensitive military hardware (ok.. with built-in kill switches) ?

    If they didn't then it's not a kill switch and the U.S. simply provided their Israeli allies with electronic warfare technologies.

    It was my understanding that syrian military hardware was russian based anyway..

    So I'm not sure I understand the whole thing..

    --Ivan

    1. Re:Syrians have U.S. military hardware ? by confused+one · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, it's possible the Syrians have US hardware. We sell to Country x. Country x ships to Country y. Country y sells to Syria. It happens. Sometimes, that works against the U.S. and its allies. Sometime... it works for the U.S. and its allies

    2. Re:Syrians have U.S. military hardware ? by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe some of the US hardware from Iran during the Shah era has flowed to Syria? That's the thing with military hardware, once you sell it to somebody, there's very little you can do to keep them from passing it to somebody else. In that context, kill switches are genius (assuming the 'enemy' doesn't hack your Gibson).

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    3. Re:Syrians have U.S. military hardware ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      America's ability to influence what goes into enemy military hardware isn't constrained by what we directly supply. With proper access and funding, we can influence what they build at home too.

    4. Re:Syrians have U.S. military hardware ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah they just stopped em at the border and searched their laptops.

    5. Re:Syrians have U.S. military hardware ? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      American Business Plan.

      1) Sell the world military technology with kill switches
      2) ???
      3) Profit!!!

      Alternate ending: Replace "???" with "Invade"

    6. Re:Syrians have U.S. military hardware ? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      This way you get to sell equipment to BOTH sides, preventing your enemies from buying from other sources (make yours cheaper, they'll buy it) AND giving your allies an edge they can count on.

      Makes perfect sense to me...

      Oh yeah - PROFIT!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    7. Re:Syrians have U.S. military hardware ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is possible that the Syrians were using civilian/commercial aviation radar made by the US for military purposes. To me the problem with the scenario in the article is that it makes it seem like the US is taking military orders from Israel.

    8. Re:Syrians have U.S. military hardware ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basically, Syria bought some lemons from Russia.

  12. This happens quite often in many devices by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 5, Funny

    My PC for sure has a kill switch somewhere. Now and then an odd blue screen with a funny message appears on the screen. I wonder who is operating the switch and why...

    1. Re:This happens quite often in many devices by Culture20 · · Score: 0

      It's called non-ECC RAM. Fastest kill switch ever.

    2. Re:This happens quite often in many devices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry. It's me. I have this switch in my house that I don't know what the heck it operates. Every once in a while I flip it to see if it does anything.

      It's obviously killing your computer.

      For that I deeply apologise.

      I just hope it's not connected to any other devices.

      I really should lock that down sometime.

    3. Re:This happens quite often in many devices by yerdaddy_777 · · Score: 1

      My PC had a kill switch on the front, with a bright blue LED. My 2 year old was always using it. I thought I'd outsmart my two year old by disabling the kill switch. He just found the one on the UPS. kid 1, dad 0.

    4. Re:This happens quite often in many devices by publiclurker · · Score: 1

      The guy's name is General Failure. I've noticed him reading my hard drive on occasion.

    5. Re:This happens quite often in many devices by mcgrew · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I think it's some military guy named General Failure, once in a while my system used to warn me that he was reading my hard drive.

      Or maybe he retired, I haven't seen the General around in a while.

    6. Re:This happens quite often in many devices by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1

      My PC for sure has a kill switch somewhere. Now and then an odd blue screen with a funny message appears on the screen. I wonder who is operating the switch and why...

      It's called a "hardware driver" it was written by a 19 year old college intern named Steve. (Steve's company was the lowest bidder...)

    7. Re:This happens quite often in many devices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    8. Re:This happens quite often in many devices by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      It's me. Sometimes when we are drunk here, we make fun of you. But thank you for still running Windows ME. We got some very useful CPU cycles out of there. Oh, and your wife... nice tits... if you want those "special" photos back, I recommend you send me some nice money every month from now on... :P

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  13. If they do... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This the Syrians do have US military hardware, they should demand their money back.

    1. Re:If they do... by TechMouse · · Score: 1

      May I be the first to wish the Syrians the best of luck with that.

  14. modified hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't say whether we modified hardware being shipped to overseas contractors at the governments request. I also can't say where that hardware was shipped or where we thought it was going to end up. I also can't say whether we were able to later identify that hardware based on data embedded in its output. I'm sorry, I can't answer your questions; I can neither confirm nor deny your acusations.

  15. Riiight by Culture20 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not usually a fan of conspiracy theories, but "signals to turn off radar" seems more like a coverup to protect the Mossad agents who really turned off the radar. You can theoretically only use a kill signal like that once, but Mossad agents are much more versatile.

    1. Re:Riiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sounds quite a bit more plausible.

    2. Re:Riiight by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 1

      Also, kill switches of this sort are kinda stupid: It's intentional bugs, and intentional security by obscurity. You just hope your enemy hasn't hacked your system through the backdoor you put in.

      (Of course, this assumes you are building the hardware yourself. If you are buying it from someone, expect these to be there in case they ever decide they don't want to be your friends.)

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    3. Re:Riiight by R2.0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Here's another explanation - it's a red herring. By floating this story, you kill 2 birds:

      1) It "explains" the lack of Syrian response in a way that maintains security on the real capabilities of Israeli jamming, and

      2) It sends foreign powers on a wild goose chase, spending resources trying to root out "kill switches" that aren't there. This takes away from resources that could be spent improving the system's ability to see through jamming.

      The elegance is that it has JUST enough plausibility that it can't be ignored, due to the (now) well publicized Soviet gas pumping station sabotage.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    4. Re:Riiight by sampas · · Score: 1

      This isn't new. This happened in the US. NORAD's COBOL code was written so that US radar would go down when Soviet fighters entered a particular radar zone. Fortunately, an airplane hit the airspace and NORAD went dark. The investigation revealed a malicious COBOL programmer paid by the Soviets. I can't remember exactly where I read this, but it's in one of the references in Ross's Security Engineering book.

    5. Re:Riiight by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Maybe or it could just be that the US has samples of all these radar systems and found the best way to jam or overload them.
      Nothing is perfect so I am sure they have torn those system apart and found any weakness. The US then shared that information.
      Kind of like in WWII when the US found a Zero.
      They found that the Zero had a longer range, could out climb, out turn, and was faster than the F4F fighters the US had. The only thing advantage the F4F had was that it could out dive the Zero and as built like a tank.
      The one problem it had was at high speed it didn't turn well to the left. So F4Fs made diving attacks at high speed and turned left to escape. The F4F ended up with a very good kill rate when dealing with the Zero.
      If you can find a weakness and exploit it you will often win.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    6. Re:Riiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...well publicized Soviet gas pumping station sabotage...

      Which was itself a fabrication. But your point stands.

    7. Re:Riiight by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Also, kill switches of this sort are kinda stupid: It's intentional bugs, and intentional security by obscurity. You just hope your enemy hasn't hacked your system through the backdoor you put in.

      Why would you put it in your hardware?

      I'm using system 3474. I'm selling you system 3474.

      It's just that my system 3474 has subcomponent 7474 from Lot 243 from TI. Your system 3474 has subcomponent 7474 from lot 241 from TI.

      Same part/version numbers on every component.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    8. Re:Riiight by PerfectionLost · · Score: 1

      Social engineering is generally excepted as the easiest way to hack a system.

    9. Re:Riiight by conureman · · Score: 1

      ...And right now, precious Syrian resources are being squandered in a futile examination of their OTHER eaquipment; Probably create a new department of homeland security or some fuck-all bureaucracy to address the issue.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    10. Re:Riiight by hador_nyc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      supporting your argument, the CIA encouraged belief in UFO sitings to use as cover for SR-71/A-12 and U-2 flights. Mind you, and I need to say this on/., but this has nothing to do with weather or not there really are UFOs; it's just that if more people believe in then fewer will think that a jet they may see from extreme range/altitude is really a jet.

      --
      - Mike
      Once you've lost your temper, you've lost the argument - Me
    11. Re:Riiight by hador_nyc · · Score: 1

      The military continues to do these things to this day. This is why we have intelligence centers for each branch of hte military.

      --
      - Mike
      Once you've lost your temper, you've lost the argument - Me
    12. Re:Riiight by tibman · · Score: 1

      Bombing a nuclear reactor seems worthwhile.. even if they only got to use that switch once, it seems worth it.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    13. Re:Riiight by vertinox · · Score: 1

      I'm not usually a fan of conspiracy theories, but "signals to turn off radar" seems more like a coverup to protect the Mossad agents who really turned off the radar. You can theoretically only use a kill signal like that once, but Mossad agents are much more versatile.

      Its not like the United States didn't do it before.

      Well to be fair the KBG was buying the equipment on the blackmarket and should have known better.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    14. Re:Riiight by mbone · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if such agents were detected the kill signal would go the other way.

    15. Re:Riiight by n7ytd · · Score: 1

      And, it lessens the the enemy's confidence in their weapons systems, which will cause them to spend money and resources.

    16. Re:Riiight by VShael · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure Mossad agents can only be killed once as well.

    17. Re:Riiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why people would use COBOL when Fortran or even assembly are much more sensible choices for this kind of application???

    18. Re:Riiight by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      To me, the options include a single compromised tech who provided the Current IFF codes, which means the system wouldn't have alerted to Hostile/Unknown aircraft in the area or who placed the system into training/maintenance mode

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    19. Re:Riiight by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      You might read up on Trusting trust.

      And I have heard of the NSA (or CIA, or some TLA agency) examining chips in routers, in search of discrepancies. IE trojans, at the chip level.

      You only THINK your tin foil hat is too tight...

    20. Re:Riiight by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      I'm not denying that such things don't happen; I'm just saying that in this particular instance it works better as a cover story.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    21. Re:Riiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is actually real interest from groups like Darpa on detecting these potential trojans.... (look at CHES or HOST conferences) trust in IC program with APL/ MIT LL, etc...

      its fine and good to say "build everything american" but if you look at how any complicated system is built these days it takes components from all over the world... if you want the best tactical weapons system, you _have_ to use parts from all over the world. that exposes you to this risk.

    22. Re:Riiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, so if social engineering is excepted then what is accepted as the easiest way to hack a system?

    23. Re:Riiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I eat carrots to improve my night vision

    24. Re:Riiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, so if social engineering is excepted then what is accepted as the easiest way to hack a system?

      Read their password off a sticky note on their monitor?

    25. Re:Riiight by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Mossad is good with people. The code as shipped might have been off the shelf and clean export quality.
      Mossad got the same code/hardware in its original form, by theft or $.
      Looked at it, and then worked its way in.
      When a patch was ready, just seduce, turn, bribe the right person to upload some data.
      The person with access gets cash, a new life or gets to keep working with Mossad.
      When war starts, things no longer work as they should.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    26. Re:Riiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can find a weakness and exploit it you will often win.

      Until they start calling me a gold farmer... :(

  16. Dude, shut up! by jafiwam · · Score: 1, Insightful

    That dude is going to get himself killed by Mossad if he's not careful.

    What, did you think the Russians, Germans, Americans, and Chinese are going to risk facing their own stuff?

    Morons. Of COURSE there are kill switches in all the things that are sold to the third-worlders. Duh.

    1. Re:Dude, shut up! by PPH · · Score: 1

      That dude is going to get himself killed by Mossad if he's not careful.

      Or not.

      If its all disinformation, other nations using the same technology will be digging through source code and reverse engineering ASICs for years. And they'll think twice about their capabilities for shielding facilities that they suspect Israel might attack.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  17. Re:This will stimulate growth in the weapons indus by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    That's War with a capital W,

    which rhymes with Cue, and that stands for Pool!

  18. Semiconductor Executive Should Be Investigated by fwr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So there's a semiconductor executive that is talking about classified information in an interview? His/Her clearance should be revoked, at least temporarily, until an investigation can be performed to determine whether any laws were broken, and how long the executive should serve.

    1. Re:Semiconductor Executive Should Be Investigated by nanoakron · · Score: 1

      Or at least until he can be tracked down and killed by Mossad/The CIA/MI6 etc...

      -Nano.

    2. Re:Semiconductor Executive Should Be Investigated by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      Unless, for example, he was asked to spout this as disinformation. It might make an intelligence agency quite happy to have eyes turned away from alternative methods to shutting these things down.

    3. Re:Semiconductor Executive Should Be Investigated by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "So there's a semiconductor executive that is talking about classified information in an interview? His/Her clearance should be revoked, at least temporarily, until an investigation can be performed to determine whether any laws were broken, and how long the executive should serve."

      Unless he was asked to "confirm" it by US intelligence as part of a cover story for the REAL reason the Isrealis were able to take out the systems.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    4. Re:Semiconductor Executive Should Be Investigated by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately, an investigation/trial might reveal more secrets than the good it would do.

      The first rule when you see classified information splash across the front page of the New York Times, it to keep your mouth shut. Running around, arresting people, only confirms that the information is true. You start a secret investigation and covertly limit the information that the people suspected of the leaks have access to. Then, when the brouhaha dies down, use special rendition to disappear the perp in the middle of the night.

      Usually when someone's clearance is revoked publicly, it's because they broke a rule, not because real secrets were reveled.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    5. Re:Semiconductor Executive Should Be Investigated by Rorschach1 · · Score: 2

      "...and how long the executive should serve."

      Senators serve six-year terms. If he wants to stay in longer than that, he'll need to run for re-election. Haven't you figured out how this works yet?

    6. Re:Semiconductor Executive Should Be Investigated by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Then, when the brouhaha dies down, use special rendition to disappear the perp in the middle of the night.

      Welcome to the War on Terror.
      If you reach into the seatback pocket in front of you, you'll find a gag and hood that we've thoughtfully provided to you for this flight.
      Also in the pocket is a copy of the Constitution, which you won't be able to read with the hood over your head.
      Don't worry if your tray table is down or your seat is not in the upright and locked position, because if anything happens to you, we're not accountable.
      Have a nice flight.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    7. Re:Semiconductor Executive Should Be Investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the contrary, we need more brave souls like him.

      Let's be clear on this, in a free country the government does not get to have secrets. That includes the military.

    8. Re:Semiconductor Executive Should Be Investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're known for doing that, then you could plausibly go and revoke clearance and people would think you'd never be *that* obvious but it would be true.

  19. I call BS by gsaraber · · Score: 1

    I have a feeling they just didn't shoot due to some command&control screwup and there is no killswitch..

    1. Re:I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're correct on this, consider if there is a kill switch you have to assume the device has:

      a: access to an open network and an OS that allows direct hardware interaction

      b: a built in RF receiver.

      This whole story was dreamed up by someone who was blown away by the way the Cylons shut down the Colonial defense grid.

    2. Re:I call BS by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      You mean something like a missile control radar? Something tells me the entire point of one of those would be to pickup an incoming RF signal! Who's to say there's not a ping-of-death that could be sent to one to turn it off? What are you going to do, debug embedded processors etc?

  20. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unit 8200 is responsible for my Windows PC crashing...

  21. Standard operating procedure by spikesahead · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In the cold war the united states did this several times to the USSR, one notable example was a gas pipeline explosion caused by a specifically sabotaged piece of software.

    Here is an article detailing the event;
    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39147917,00.htm

    The USSR attempted in several instances to steal or otherwise acquire technology from the united states, and whenever this was detected our counter-intelligence services would provide flawed or otherwise sabotaged technology in place of the actual information sought. This had the desired cascading effect of the USSR unable to trust any technology that may have been introduced from non-USSR sources and was considered an extremely significant part of the eventual collapse of the USSR.

    1. Re:Standard operating procedure by feepness · · Score: 1

      This had the desired cascading effect of the USSR unable to trust any technology that may have been introduced from non-USSR sources and was considered an extremely significant part of the eventual collapse of the USSR.

      This is predicated on the assumption they could not develop their own technology. That was the actual problem.

    2. Re:Standard operating procedure by mbone · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...was considered an extremely significant part of the eventual collapse of the USSR.

      Oh, come on. Was considered by whom, exactly ?

      I might point out that both sides stole constantly from each other, in many cases quite successfully (viz, the first Soviet fission bomb), as well as energetically developing their own technology (viz, the first Soviet fusion bomb with the "layer cake" design), and that the USSR did not implode because of external pressure.

    3. Re:Standard operating procedure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry to spoil the fun but as a matter of fact it is fairly evident (and not very surprising, given the circumstances) that the West lost the whole Cold War spy game at large. There were moles at top positions in all major US agencies and you can safely assume that the Russians were well-informed about any of those little 'dirty tricks' you are referring to.

    4. Re:Standard operating procedure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Except that there is no evidence that any explosion took place. The whole story is based on the book of a former Reagan administration official. Go ahead and check newspaper archives at at that time, and you will find no mention of any explosion. I suppose you could claim it was covered up by the Soviets, but if it was truly a "massive" explosion, I doubt they could have achieved a complete media blackout.

      In addition, the entire story is described as a hoax here:

      http://www.bookscape.co.uk/short_stories/computer_hoaxes.php

      I think it's fair to say The Great Trans-Siberian Pipeline Computer Sabotage of 1982 is dubious at best.

    5. Re:Standard operating procedure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coverup? We're talking about Siberia in 1982. Cover up from *who*? It's not like that's a densely populated area.

      And in terms of media coverage: the Russians would have known, but it wouldn't be in their interests to report it. The Chinese *might* have known, but it wouldn't be in their interest to report it. And the US might have known, but not only would it not be great propaganda, it's not in their interests to report it either - because either it gives away knowledge of US satellite photography, or it gives away that we were sabotaging things (thus making it harder to sabotage things in the future). In the US, inside info about sabotaging stuff would probably be classified for 40+ years.

    6. Re:Standard operating procedure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, they blew up a pipeline just to convince us such "dirty tricks" we were successful? Now that's commitment! No wonder the Soviet Union now dominates the entire...wait...

      - T

      heh - captcha is "commando"

    7. Re:Standard operating procedure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4394002

      These attacks were significant, and did all sorts of damage to the Soviet economy. Did sabotage take down the Soviets? Not directly, but they made Soviet life more miserable and forced the Soviet government to divert limited resources.

  22. The Chinese and Windows by kurt555gs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I understand why the Chinese don't want to use Windows in their defense systems. I am sure there are back doors to encryption, and remote access, and all kinds of sneaky things that the CIA can do to anyone using Microsoft products.

    Microsoft can say , no, its fine. Without the source code, how could you trust them?

    --
    * Carthago Delenda Est *
    1. Re:The Chinese and Windows by aminorex · · Score: 1
      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    2. Re:The Chinese and Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL! I'd expect a good bit or corporate espionage if that were true.

    3. Re:The Chinese and Windows by confused+one · · Score: 1

      Microsoft will, and has, provided source code to governments when asked.

    4. Re:The Chinese and Windows by PPH · · Score: 1

      Microsoft will, and has, provided source code to governments when asked.

      But do (or can) customers do a clean build based on it?

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re:The Chinese and Windows by mbone · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't use WIndows in my defense systems, either. The US DOD, however, has had at times a different view.

  23. Backdoor by michaelmalak · · Score: 2, Informative

    IEEE Spectrum properly refers to the attack on the Syrian hardware as a "back door". The New York Times not only failed to use the Hacker's Dictionary, it failed to use the terminology from IEEE Spectrum, which it even hyperlinked to.

  24. What about a Trojan "Launch" Switch by cpu_fusion · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Turning off your enemies defenses is one thing, but what about when stuff like this is used to make the enemy seem to be on the offensive?

    1. Re:What about a Trojan "Launch" Switch by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      Why bother? Just tell your media to announce that the enemy is on the offensive. They wouldn't dare contradict you in a time of war, would they?

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    2. Re:What about a Trojan "Launch" Switch by Xenoflargactian · · Score: 1

      It's very easy to disable a system by, for example, shutting down all the network switches. Actually initiating a launch would require intimate knowledge of the system and pervasive control.

  25. Oddly by njfuzzy · · Score: 1

    Oddly, I'm not sure I have a problem with this. It seems obvious that you shouldn't buy military resources from the allies of your enemies. If you can't make bigger friends, don't get in the fight.

    --
    My Photography - http://ian-x.com
    The Deathlings (comic) - http://thedeathlings.com
    1. Re:Oddly by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      It's working pretty damn well for the Taliban, with their US-made Stingers...

  26. Radars and kill switch by renoX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A kill switch needs external communication to be activated which can be quite impossible to implement in many case but radars are basically radio receivers so a specific sequence of radio impulsion at a given frequency could activate the kill switch..
    Interesting.

  27. American military equipment in Syria? by tokul · · Score: 1

    Maybe they confused Jordan with Syria. Syrian military is based on Eastern technology. I don't think that SA-2 and SA-3, SA-8 use US radars.

  28. Integrated air defence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My understanding is that they took out the NETWORK and COMPUTERS connecting all the weaponry, not the weaponry. So while the guys in the missile batteries were playing cards, or whatever, the search radar was showing cartoons, and nobody ever woke the general up with an attack warning until the bombs dropped. Lieutenants do not shoot missiles unless the general says it is OK.

  29. Unit 8200 by MRe_nl · · Score: 1
    --
    "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
  30. Reminds me of David Gerrold's Rage for Revenge by Kostya · · Score: 1

    In Gerrold's Chtorr series, they used this. A lot of US military tech was in the hands of rebels, and they just deployed a kill switch. But in the book, it was expressed as a last-ditch measure. Once you use it, everyone knows about it, and you lose the advantage. Suddenly all the US allies were very, very concerned, as they began to wonder what US technology wasn't booby trapped.

    I'd be really surprised we'd just hand this over to the Israelis if we had it. I'd think we would be saving this for a major military catastrophe for the US--kind of a "oh crap, we are up against the wall and this is our only hope of stopping the enemy." Because you only get to use it once with real effectiveness. Blowing it on a raid by another country (who would have taken them out anyways) seems stupid.

    --
    "Doubt your doubts and believe your beliefs." -- Switchfoot, Ode to Chin
    1. Re:Reminds me of David Gerrold's Rage for Revenge by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      During the first gulf war, the Iraqis used French missiles against French planes. After that, the head of the French company that built the missiles publicly declared that it would be a bad idea to sell missiles in the future that didn't have a kill switch. Same thing for landmines. Modern landmines either have a timer or a resonant destruct switch.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
  31. The answer is clear: McAfee by seniorcoder · · Score: 1

    Perhaps they should run McAfee to prevent this trojan? Then again, perhaps they don't want their defense systems to run slower than a snail that has taken an elephant tranquilizer.

  32. Colossus, WarGames, Battlestar:Galactica by DutchUncle · · Score: 1

    This idea isn't new. "Serious" science fiction since the 1950s has considered the more complex vulnerabilities of more complex systems, specifically including false takeover of control (Colossus and WarGames), malicious Trojan horses (Battlestar), and false triggering of safety/self-destruct signals (Keith Laumer's Bolo stories) (and yes, I know some of those examples aren't the highest quality, but they're well known). The only disappointment in this article is the apparent surprise expressed.

  33. Kill switches and more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are secret kill switches without a doubt. In some cases they are very sophisticated, like signal processing checks that look for frequency signatures that act as passkeys to enable backdoor commands. Also, there are specialized modules in commercial products that allow easy tracking of the devices that can be used for missile targeting. Come on, you had to suspect this... It is true and has led to kill/capture of several high value targets.

  34. The Syrian radar disable code: by Veramocor · · Score: 1

    I've obtained the secret code used to disable the radar systems:

    1-6-3-0-9

    --
    Veramocor
    1. Re:The Syrian radar disable code: by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I thought it was my luggage combination: 1-2-3-4-5

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    2. Re:The Syrian radar disable code: by Veramocor · · Score: 1

      I herby revoke your nerdcore cards to everyone who did not get the wrath of kahn reference.

      --
      Veramocor
  35. Y'know... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    If I were to have an "electronic intelligence agency" I would call it "Unit 2600".

  36. Idiots by fineghal · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You know what's absolutely hilarious about this? A kill switch requires a COMMAND to activate. OP probably believes in one world order and a secret cabal of jewish-mason-opus-dei members. 1) Activation requires communication with the kill switch. - A fair portion (missiles spring to mind) of military hardware is shielded from this kind of thing. Can't have a stray emp field junking your hardware in a combat zone can you? 2) Activation requires communication. Stop and think about that. This isn't some craptacular residential cable modem that's connected to the internet 24/7. You're trying to tell me that "they" can magically get line level access to the hardware? - Just like in regular computer security - if "they" have physical access to the machine, you're already screwed. 3) Activation requires communication. Let us suppose that there IS magical over-the-air access possible to some random device. Every single method EVER requires some type of input at the least. Do you really think that NO ONE is going to notice a radio or IR reciever being added to a chip or hardware? 4) Do you really, truly believe that this hardware is preconfigured from the manufacturer for the military? People Telco's (in the us at least) don't even do that! You're trying to tell me that any firm (military or otherwise) is going to tell their manufacturer "Hey, while you're at it, I want you to add this access code algorithm." 5) And finally: Obviously the military/anyone is NEVER going to compare their original designs with what was delivered from manufacturer.

    1. Re:Idiots by colesw · · Score: 1

      1,2,3) This was disabling of radar, as someone mentioned earlier radar has to receive, thus it could be possible to send a code that would disable the equipment, plausible at least.

      4,5) This was US or Russian equipment, I highly doubt Syria gave specifications to either. They bought what was available from whoever they bought it from.

    2. Re:Idiots by tehdaemon · · Score: 2, Informative

      In general, your objections are valid. In this case, the device with the supposed kill switch is a radar. A giant radio receiver. You would be hard pressed to find a better communication channel than that, and it is hidden in plain sight.

      Everything that is received by the radar goes through software at some point or other, and this is not trivial stuff, it is likely in ROM and not easily dumped or disassembled. Possibly encrypted to boot. A kill switch in general? Hard. For a radar? very plausible, and most of your objections have a simple answer for a radar.

      T

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    3. Re:Idiots by CompMD · · Score: 1

      Air traffic control radars receive encoded data from aircraft via transponder. If I squawk 1200 on my transponder, then I show up as an airplane flying VFR on ATC's radar. However, if I squawk 7700 (general emergency) and IDENT, the ATC radar will light up like a christmas tree and say "holy crap, this airplane is in trouble!" This is all done through radar. Someone could certainly build a trojan into a radar system that would screw it up when it receives a certain encoded message.

  37. This isn't the first time this has happened... by the+saltydog · · Score: 1

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4394002

    From the article;

    "In January 1982, President Ronald Reagan approved a CIA plan to sabotage the economy of the Soviet Union through covert transfers of technology that contained hidden malfunctions, including software that later triggered a huge explosion in a Siberian natural gas pipeline, according to a new memoir by a Reagan White House official."

    All in all, a fascinating article - check it out.

  38. uhh...Russian technology by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How do Israelis manage to build in kill switches on technology developed in Russia and provided to Syria through Iran? That would involve some deep penetration, which I doubt even the Israelis can do. The Russian did pretty much invent counterespionage, after all.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    1. Re:uhh...Russian technology by mbone · · Score: 1

      If they did do such deep penetration (which seems not totally impossible given the numbers of Russians with relatives in Israel), why would they waste it in this rinky-dink raid ?

      This is disinformation IMHO, pure and simple.

    2. Re:uhh...Russian technology by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

      "Components. American components, Russian Components, ALL MADE IN TAIWAN! "
      Lev Andropov, Armageddon

  39. Could it be ... by conureman · · Score: 1

    James Mowrey?

    --
    The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
  40. F16-IN by sskang · · Score: 1

    This is why I oppose the purchase of the F-16IN by India. It's a capable aircraft from what I understand and fits the MRCA requirements of the IAF, but I really really doubt that after facing its own gear in Gulf War I, the US is going to provide any country with sophisticated arms without a kill switch.

    1. Re:F16-IN by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      They don't, but if they are like the Israelis, they replace the avionics package after a purchase.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    2. Re:F16-IN by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Usually exported technology is simply downgraded so that it is not on the same level. Generally, for aircraft, this would involve removal of the radars, both search and fire control. Im sure they downgrade the avionics some as well. The point is giving an ally an aircraft that can hold its own against most of the world but, should that ally become hostile or the technology seized, it is not on equal terms with our own fighters unless they've managed to purchase or develop their own packages. Plus, it's so much easier to win an air battle when your opponent is using the old Soviet model, ie fire control from a central point(whether a ground station or an aerial radar platform).

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    3. Re:F16-IN by icegreentea · · Score: 1

      Yeah. But in most cases, Lockheed Martin is off selling F16s with more advanced avionics than USAF F16s to some foreign countries. The F-16IN as well as the ones exported to UAE are probably more advance in every way to USAF planes, with the exception that whatever block 30/32 F16s the USAF has can probably out maneuver the hell out of the exports (as well as whatever block 40/42 and 50/52s the USAF uses).

      The US once tried the whole 'selling downgraded' planes to allies thing. It wasn't really popular with their allies given there are plenty of other western vendors that they can buy uncrippled airplanes from. And thats ignoring that the fact that the new Russian exports are actually pretty nice. I mean seriously. Why buy crippled F16s when you can go pick up some top of the line Grippens.

    4. Re:F16-IN by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      The thing with this is that we are (SUPPOSEDLY) going to have a fighter that is much better than the F-16, namely the F-35(probly the F-22s as well, but I wont go into that). The F-35 program does have other countries investing as well and getting planes, but from what I understand, they dont have options for the full range of aircraft types(VTOL and carrier variants). I could be wrong though, as I havent looked into it too much. But yeah, due to our horrid defense acquisition system and politics in general, I see us falling behind in the near future when it comes to air power, and we will be subordinate to forces using our own technology and equipment that we sold them.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    5. Re:F16-IN by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

      Every US military aircraft since the F4 sold for export has had a kill switch in them. This is widely known within the industry and happened after the Shah was over thrown. I'm not so sure about the Russian aircraft, but it would surprise me if the MIG-29 and SU-27's DIDN'T have hill switches.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    6. Re:F16-IN by sskang · · Score: 1

      The difference is that other contenders for the MMRCA contract will (apparently) come with source for the avionics software, while the F-16IN will not. It's not just India in fact; the UK is pissed about the "joint" F-35 for the same reason.

    7. Re:F16-IN by icegreentea · · Score: 1

      The VTOL version is being exported. The carrier version has the USN has its sole user (probably something about not many other countries having full size carriers). And I don't get what you mean by not getting into the F22. It's already being phased into actual service with a few squadrons already converted. And as an air superiority fighter, I don't think its possible to argue that the F22 is worse than the F16.

    8. Re:F16-IN by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      I didnt want to get into the whole political dimension that comes along with it. I personally think it is an excellent fighter, it was just pushed aside for another pet project with a more political agenda.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  41. Re:Lesson learned?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dont buy important technology from foreign countries, do it yourself.

    Anyone who thinks that's the lesson, will be back in school later. The real lesson is that you don't ever use anything unaudited, for anything important. And that's not just a military lesson.

  42. The rules of fight club by JerryLove · · Score: 1

    The first rule of a successful secret trojan program is:
          You do not talk about the secret trojan program.

  43. To be fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A good CS major can write an O/S from scratch--it will just either be tiny or it will take him many years. It's a hard project, but that doesn't mean one can't learn a lot given the right foundations.

    Now the O/S he comes up with after 10 years won't be as good as the ones now in existence, but it'll still be an O/S.

  44. Domestic or foreign made, it doesn't matter by cyberfringe · · Score: 1

    Chips, devices, components, subassemblies and so forth can all be compromised at any time in the manufacturing life cycle. It doesn't really matter whether some portion of the manufacturing is done domestically or elsewhere. The risk is mostly about people and access to data and the manufacturing process, and people are clearly vulnerable. Furthermore, each stage of the manufacturing process has enough engineering to worry about without having to verify and validate all the previous steps. Sure, major portions of the manufacture of critical military systems is done under heavy security, but not all of it! I submit that although having a completely trusted system is a worthwhile goal, there is a rapidly diminishing return on investment in trying to achieve it. You just won't get 100% trust without some real breakthroughs in how systems are currently built. Therefore you will have vulnerable if not already-compromised systems. I think the important practical question is how to continue to operate effectively without trusted systems, when you know there is a risk your systems will not work, work incorrectly or even work against you. When it starts to do so. That's the challenge.

    --
    There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about. -- John von Neumann
  45. The whole article is rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone obviously doesn't understand how electronics work :)

    In any case, its quite likely that the attack never happened:

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_sherwood_080203_doubt_claims_israel_.htm

    It was all a cover to probe the radar systems -- which did work and the interceptors arrived on time. Its also likely that Israel used Iraqi air space.

  46. Kill Switches in the Silicon by DesertNomad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My experience is with very complex and extremely common silicon wireless transceivers, including RF, PHY, MAC, NWK and even applications functions. 6 to 40 mm^2 of extremely dense circuitry (millions to tens of millions of gates). It would be very easy to put into that a block that would be nearly undetectable and that would cause the transceiver to change its behavior when specific sequences are received over the air. In a major metro area, a single broadcast message could shut down tens of thousands of cellphones or wi-fi devices. For weapons that use that part, it could quickly be "Phaser on OVERLOAD!" That having been said, when we do a design and send the design files overseas to third-party fabs in Asia, it is hard for them to be able to modify anything since the finished part will be different than our design file. But, I suppose if you had the money, resources, and desire for total world domination, anything's possible.

    1. Re:Kill Switches in the Silicon by mbone · · Score: 1

      it is hard for them to be able to modify anything since the finished part will be different than our design file.

      How do you check this ? Is there anything like a cryptographic hash on the circuit ? Is it remotely possible to test all input / output responses ? (I thought that would take longer than the life of the universe for even a simple computer chip.) If you have to hunt for changes, how do you know you've found them ?

      It seems to me that hardware steganography could be as hard to detect as image steganography.

  47. SPC'd by Ozlanthos · · Score: 1

    I couldn't agree more. Outsourcing work is like taking a job from someone who has something to lose by not doing a job right, and giving it to someone who could give a shit either way as long as they get paid. Bad policy all the way around in my book. Lack of a direct line of accountability, or loyalty counts for a lot when you are talking about potential costs that you cannot foresee.

    -Oz

  48. Disinformation by mbone · · Score: 1

    That's all that needs to be said.

  49. Buffer overrun by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

    Unlike the older systems which just spewed an analogue output to a green CRT, in more modern systems there is lots of software processing the input. It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to imagine that there are inputs which could cause glitches in that software, even if there isn't actually a dedicated killswitch.

  50. Re:Israel beware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    And this is a good thing we should have turned our backs on Israel a long time ago. The middle east might have been a better place if this had happened years ago.

  51. Nope... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That'd be Mowry, you wretched nit.

  52. I love the hypocrisy in this. by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Being secretive is any person's right - unless said person is working for the government. ONOZ PUBLIC CAMERAS, but at the same time, ONOZ GOVERNMENT HIDING TANK PLANS!!1.

    Government is the servant of the people, people aren't servants of the government. People have the right to know what government is doing in their name but governments have no right to know what the people do.

    Falcon

  53. Re:Disinformation... by conureman · · Score: 1

    All that's needed is to say it. Sirian Freedom Party Lives!

    --
    The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
  54. weapons by falconwolf · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    The best proof of this is that small countries buy military technology from larger countries.

    I didn't know Belgium was a large country. Switzerland is also big? As is Israel?

    Falcon

  55. Re:Israel beware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The main problem with the middle east the the lack of nuclear reactors!

    o_O

  56. It's a good thing we build all the weapons then by SeePage87 · · Score: 1

    Or most of them, anyhow. Wow, that's clever though. We've been trying to decide the outcome of wars around the world pretty regularly since WWII, this just provides a very efficient means of doing so. It also gives a big disincentive for people buying US weapons on the black market (well, the really bad ones).

    Of course there's always the fear of hackers figuring out a way to kill the kill switch, but at least it's one more obstacle. It'd probably be a good idea to ensure none of our craft, etc, have these kill switches though, just the ones we sell. I'm sure we try very very hard to protect the switches, but security systems of all kinds get broken, it's easier to find exploits than it is to create a system that has none whatsoever. If lives (potentially thousands or more) depend on it, why take the chance?

  57. drugs by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    1) Most of the people involved in drug cartels are brainless thugs or stupid patsies. Not the type of people likely to use a high-tech solution to a problem.

    Drug cartels don't use high tech tools? I recall people asking who would have a need for a cellphone unless they deal in drugs. And before cellphones it was pagers. "Paging her dealer?" I bet organized crime syndicates, even Mexicans, use computers.

    4) The US Air Force. Do you REALLY think that they will allow foreign UAVs to fly for long in US Airspace?

    Yeap, they certainly will. The Air Force certainly shot down that Northwest flight to Minneapolis. And that was high altitude. A UAV can fly at low altitudes evading radar long enough to hop over the border. Smugglers even use submarines, which can carry more drugs and other contraband.

    Falcon

    1. Re:drugs by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      A UAV can fly at low altitudes evading radar long enough to hop over the border.

      Indeed. Radar can only go so low, especially in hilly areas.

      The question isn't if drug dealers could use UAVs, it's if they could use them cheaper than humans. They can't, yet. The weight capacity isn't up to it, UAVs are not luggage carriers.

      OTOH, I fully suspect they're already using 'UAVs', aka, remote controlled airplanes with video cameras, as scouts.

      We probably haven't heard about it because it is not even illegal. As long as they don't actually cross the border with them, which is possibly not technically illegal but would result in them getting shot down. Fly one on each side of the border, locate law enforcement, radio locations to people crossing.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    2. Re:drugs by d3ac0n · · Score: 1

      Yeap, they certainly will. The Air Force certainly shot down that Northwest [chicagotribune.com] flight to Minneapolis. And that was high altitude. A UAV can fly at low altitudes evading radar long enough to hop over the border. Smugglers even use submarines [timesonline.co.uk], which can carry more drugs and other contraband.

      A commercial flight that is overdue for a landing but still being tracked on radar is VERY different from an UNKNOWN radar signal coming from across a border on an unexpected path and trajectory. You obviously know jack squat about Air Force and general defense protocols to think that would be allowed to happen.

      Remember, we are talking about an autonomous vehicle capable of carrying a rather heavy payload a VERY long distance. So that means a LARGE vehicle, close to the size of your average light airplane (Think Cessna single engine plane sized or slightly smaller).

      A vehicle that size flying over the border WILL NOT go unnoticed! If you think it will you are utterly ignorant about just how tightly controlled our airspace is.

      Oh, and submarine comparisons are NOT applicable. Until such time as we have a Sonar network around our coasts as extensive as the Radar network blanketing our skies AND we have teams of fast-response submarine hunter-killers waiting to be launched from naval bases all along the coast at a moment's notice, then our coasts will always be more porous than our skies. The same goes for the ground borders.

      That, and the fact that the "semi-sub" was a flop and CAUGHT with it's load on it's maiden voyage.

      The simple fact is that both ground and sea borders are far less intensively monitored and defended than the air is. Flying vehicles are the LEAST practical method of transporting contraband, Autonomous flying vehicles (which cannot respond to radio ID requests or have a conversation with a ground controller) are even LESS practical.

      I'm sorry if that bursts your "romantic" bubble of clever drug dealers getting your blow across the border with oh-so-cool technology and beating "the man" so you can get high, but it's the truth.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    3. Re:drugs by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      You obviously know jack squat about Air Force and general defense protocols to think that would be allowed to happen.

      Just as you've shown you know jack squat about the Air Force and what it's radar is capable of.

      Remember, we are talking about an autonomous vehicle capable of carrying a rather heavy payload a VERY long distance. So that means a LARGE vehicle, close to the size of your average light airplane (Think Cessna single engine plane sized or slightly smaller).

      And they can easily evade radar.

      A vehicle that size flying over the border WILL NOT go unnoticed! If you think it will you are utterly ignorant about just how tightly controlled our airspace is.

      HAHA!!! The government can't stop people walking across the border, there's no way they can stop low flying aircraft either.

      That, and the fact that the "semi-sub" was a flop and CAUGHT with it's load on it's maiden voyage.

      That was just the first result googling personal submarines drug smuggling. There are more than 20,000 more.

      I'm sorry if that bursts your "romantic" bubble of clever drug dealers getting your blow across the border with oh-so-cool technology and beating "the man" so you can get high, but it's the truth.

      And I'm sorry you're bubble was busted.

      Falcon

      OH and BTW, though I did not serve in the Air Force my father retired from the USAF and an uncle is a licensed pilot who built his own plane, which I've wanted to do for ages myself. I want to build an ultralight.

  58. The Open Source Antiaircraft Missile Challenge by wsanders · · Score: 1

    I challenge the open source community to come up with a project that can shoot down a drone cruising at 10,000 feet, forget about an F16.

            Anyway, TFA was about kill switches in expensive defense systems, not only the kind you get if you're an unfortunate country trying to develop a nuclear program within F16 range of Israel (honorable intent or otherwise), but also in off the shelf hardware the US uses.

            Lots of places I know won't contemplate buying Huawei routers for exactly this reason. Much of the Cisco gear on the grey market is counterfeit - same thing. Now that I think of it, the pallet of of Juniper routers I just bought is prominently merked "Made in China". Oh well.

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
  59. Re:Israel beware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And this is a good thing we should have turned our backs on Israel a long time ago. The middle east might have been a better place if this had happened years ago.

    Yeah, all the Jews would be dead and the Palestinians would still be living in poverty under a corrupt government.

  60. But he saves the rest of us because warmongers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    have to prove that there are no kill switches before making plans for killer profits in a gorefest of bombs and electronic warfare.

    This dude spoke up this much because he has seen plans to start a few wars here and there, and these wars are going to cost innocent American lives.

    This he clearly does not want.
    And so he puts his career and life at stake if you think it that way.

    This is called courage. At least so it seems from the distance.

    Does the Military Indutsrial Complex have a kill-switch?
    That is the big one.

    1. Re:But he saves the rest of us because warmongers by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Its more export quality kit.
      You have the rocket under the airframe and it works.
      But you will never get the full battlefield oversight a US commander has.
      Australia, Pakistan the UK have to beg and beg and beg the USA for source code.
      Do they get it?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  61. hmm. by Nekomusume · · Score: 1

    Now, if only we could ensure that ALL military hardware had kill switches, and that everybody on the planet knew how to use them.

  62. I fart... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...in your direction!

  63. Not invented here (not always harmful) by Khelder · · Score: 1

    Actually, at least for software, there is definitely concern and scrutiny about whether it's made in the US or elsewhere. Or if it's made in the US but by foreign nationals.

    On the hardware side, I heard from someone who works in the defense industry that in his organization, ThinkPads are no longer permitted since they became Lenovo.

    And no, I'm not saying that it's a perfect system and there's no chance that a bad actor could sneak something in, but it definitely is the case that they are paying attention to where and by whom their stuff is made.

  64. Buridan's Ass by DrVomact · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of a story I heard about a computer failure that occurred during the Falklands war. This was apparently a bug, and not sabotage...but who knows? According to the story (confession: I've not verified this, but it's such a good story that it just has to be true), the Brits noticed that sometimes their computer-controlled naval antiaircraft guns weren't firing—there were targets—i.e., Argentine planes firing at them, but the guns just froze up. The cause was later determined to be a flaw in the targeting algorithm. The algorithm was supposed to pick the optimal target by weighing criteria such as distance, vector, speed, etc. of the enemy planes. However, there was no code for making a decision if two targets were calculated to have equal priority. The gun just couldn't make up its mind. Sort of a real-life implementation of Buridan's Ass.

    --
    Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
  65. RF-ID & Need to track to 2nd and beyond equipm by turtleshadow · · Score: 1

    I suspect that a kill switch doesn't necessarily have to be in a critical component of any system. If its in a secondary or tertiary system in a critical path trigging that could disrupt or disable the primary use.

    In the IT industry if I want to take down a website why bother with attacking the primary machine if the low level infrastructure is vulnerable; such as chillers, aircon, EPS which often have some sort of control & monitoring I could tap into if I found the right access point.

    If anything an attacker could cause a 3 mile island type scenario of disrupting telemetry to force a reaction of the primary system by an operator with an attack upon a low level system.

    Sending the right radiation signal to the kill switch of the aircon unit on a radar station in the middle of the Med could naturally overheat the signal processing equipment thereby disabling it.

    Now with RF-ID chips possibly disguised into a complex circuit you just can't have to look at the code you have to examine every part and chip die.
    Not only that I wonder if the .mil spooks have already figured out which chips and circuits by their design can be overloaded with targeted radiation to shut them down. Really they are not "designed" kill switches but have found to be weak points in the shielding and are vulnerable to external attack causing the primary system to fail as a side affect.

    This is Tom Clancy & James Bond stuff.

    Would be cooler if Israel sent jets to the edge of the boarder and when Syrian launched they would send Syrian missiles back into Syria by faking out Syria's own guidance and radar then just fly back home untouched -- The press release would read "oops we just got lost and your stuff got blown up by your own guys -- too bad."

  66. all you need is an authentication server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    "That's the thing with military hardware, once you sell it to somebody, there's very little you can do to keep them from passing it to somebody else. In that context"

    OH see they are trying to fix that. You only need to setup an "authentication server" that the software that runs the hardware phones home to every time you boot it up. If you no longer want the party to run the stuff they legally payed for you simply shut down the authentication server. This works especially well when the next version of it comes out and you dont want them useing the old version forever so you can force them to upgrade to the newest version.

  67. Our Rights by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

    We, as people, are a different animal altogether. We do have inherent, natural rights simply by virtue of our existence.

    It's not as simple as that. I believe we do have inherent, natural rights, but it can't be by simply existing. Governments do exist. They may be collections of people, but they do exist.
    The concept of natural rights stems from one of two principles:

    • Moral - People have inherent rights because God made us that way. Good people respect others.
    • Ethical - People have inherent rights because we each want to live in a society of peers that honors those rights. By honoring others' rights, we establish our own.

    These are not mutually exclusive. Frankly, I think moral reasons work better, but ethical reasons are crucial.

    --
    I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  68. Weapons work both ways by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

    The problem with weapons of any sort (including back doors) is that they work both ways. We here in America will get burned by the exact same behavior.

    Those who think we can trust only Americans to do right forget 1) about little Timmy McVeigh, Oklahoma City bomber and 2) George Washington, our revered first president, was a terrorist and revolutionary first.

  69. and there will be Trojan Boot Loaders (C) by kubitus · · Score: 1
    a French Diplomat had a slip of tongue: we can switch off our Exocet missiles!

    a NATO airbase commander in Chief confirmed: pilots not following orders will be switched off from airplane control and flown home by RC ( eject seat disabled )

    the UK requested the source code of the joint tactical fighter and threatened not to buy it!

    .

    I can imagine ( but no proof ) that the US asks network device producers to include a little Trojan Boot Loader (TBL)!

    In a router or a switch this TBL listens to traffic for a initializing command hidden in a packet - most likely coming from a web-search engine.

    it can be specifically targeted by its serial number.

    So if there is something going on in Tuizerland ;-) get the serial number of their routers and send to the TBL commands to load spyware from packets hidden in unsuspicious answers coming from Google/Yahoo/MSN etc...

    .

    If I want to know what company XYZ has in its drawers: what is the serial number of their switches?

    The data wanted is added to the search query to one of the Web-services !

    recommendation: if you have anything which might be interesting - have your network devices software compiled by yourself or trustworthy AND verifyable sources.

    To the military: do your software yourself or your vendor may switch your weapon off! .

  70. Something like this in The International? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hmm, wasn't there something like this in film, The International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_%28film%29)

    Or at least something along those lines...well, it was a bank, selling what it knew to be useless counter-measures to Istabul, I think (?). Or at least measures which they had counter-counter measures for.

    Cheers,
    Victor

  71. Our "Kill Switch" by nsaspook · · Score: 1

    The Marine dozing off in the corner of the crypto room.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/2946414133/in/set-72157608078635808/

    --
    In GOD we trust, all others we monitor.
  72. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  73. The question isn't if drug dealers could use UAVs by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    it's if they could use them cheaper than humans. They can't, yet.

    Using humans coyotes can smuggle drugs and humans. So they get money from drugs and from those being smuggled. Or their buyers.

    Falcon

  74. But what's also important by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    However, if your goal is to indiscriminatingly kill people it is very easy to do with off the shelf components, if you are so inclined.

    Probably true. But it's even EASIER to just build a big bomb in a truck and just drive it up to your target. Very few buildings are hardened against this kind of thing. The point is that it's sort of unlikely for a terrorist to go to the trouble to build a homemade cruise missile (or whatever) when you can make a kamikaze weapon that's more effective and cheaper. This implies (at least to me) that there's still some use in making military grade hardware difficult and expensive to obtain - if building homemade cruise missiles suddenly became cheap and easy, then it would become nearly impossible to defend buildings like US Embassies overseas.

  75. I find that story extremely implausible by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    Per the link, Thatcher told Mitterrand that unless he provided "codes to disable the Exocet", she was going to nuke Buenos Aires. Ok, two things 1) does anyone think that Mitterrand's response would have been anything other than "So what?" Threatening to nuke a third party to whom France has no particular connection does not strike me as particularly effective blackmail. Especially considering that it would have made Thatcher look like a mass murderer. Even if she had said this, which I doubt, it would have been an obvious and not very effective bluff. 2) Is there any evidence at all that export versions of Exocet even HAD "kill codes"? I doubt this too. You'd have to send them over the air, you'd have very little time to do it, and if the Argentines so much as ever opened up a missile and examined it, they'd have found a mysterious radio system inside the missile.

    I think the linked argument is probably BS.

    1. Re:I find that story extremely implausible by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      okay so if the C&C systems had the kill switch function buried in the 80,000,000 lines of missile code and used the normal radio
      if they could find the kill routine they most likely could make the missile themselves.

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  76. Not only that by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    An Exocet is not a very big missile. If they had hit her, they might have prevented flight operations on Invincible for a while, but I seriously doubt she would have sunk.

  77. 2600 or Blacklisted!411? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    If I were to have an "electronic intelligence agency" I would call it "Unit 2600".

    I think Blacklisted!411 is better.

    Falcon

  78. Well... by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    ... I tend to agree that it's rather ludicrous for Argentina to be pressing a claim to these islands, when the only inhabitants since the dawn of time have been British. But the story about Thatcher threatening to nuke Buenos Aires is almost certainly bogus. It's a third hand quote that makes almost no sense - she was going to blackmail France by threatening to nuke Argentina? WTF? It would be like trying to blackmail the US by threatening to nuke Malaysia. This whole thing is based on a guy who's trying to profit from his connection with Mitterrand, and needs some sizzle to sell his book. Another hint: if you read about it in Newsmax, better take it with a grain of salt.

  79. "Interesting" to n00bs only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is posted about as often as all those damn xkcd links, and is about as interesting.

  80. Did they manage to slip one past you? by tinkerton · · Score: 1

    How about the allegation that there was a reactor there? In any case signalling to an opponent that you've got trojans in his tools is best postponed as long as possible. It's not something you give away for the benefit a single airraid. the NYTimes story builds speculation on speculation. It's crap.

  81. Prefix Code 1-6-3-0-9 by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

    You should never be Reliant on your enemy's technology.

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  82. Re:DEATH TO THE JEW WORLD ORDER by alantus · · Score: 1

    Ahmadinejad? Is that you?

  83. Everything has its place by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    OTOH, there would be little use for the plans for a multi-million-dollar modern missile to, for example, Hamas in the Gaza Strip, since it would be beyond their manufacturing capabilities (OK, they could probably sell the plans to someone, but we're not talking about that). They manage to accomplish much of their goals (e.g., giving the population the impression that something is being done against Israel, and having a real effect on Israel's civilian population which lives within range) using very primitive rockets.

    In addition, it is clear that as time goes on, Hamas only gets better and better at making these rockets.

    > until they are wiped out by some of our niftier stuff

    This is not always a viable possibility, politically, it seems.

  84. Stop citing my doorcode please ? by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

    Hey, you, could you please stop broadcasting my door entry code ? Thank you!

    We've already got enough unidentified visitors here with this new Diebold supersafe doorlock!

    Thank you!

    --
    --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
  85. Faraday cage? by bensch128 · · Score: 1

    I don't get it.

    It the malicious circuity has to be triggered externally and it's unknown when it'll be used, that means that either:
    (1) hackers have to get into a network linked to the hardware or
    (2) there has to be an external radio signal which can disable the hardware or
    (3) The hardware (radar in this case) doesn't validate it's input well enough and is open to buffer overflows/ bad execution based on invalid input.

    From what I've read, the Israelis exploited (3) in order to disable the syrians radar systems.
    It seems to me that the syrians bought just plain crappy radar systems and then never bothered to test or "fuzz" them.

    However, the article seems to be going crazy over (2). However, a simple faraday cage should be good enough to defeat that kind of attack.
    It'll create a barrier between the inside of the container and the outside. No EM radiation goes in, no EM radiation goes out.
    Any kind of circuity triggered by EM would be defeated. And by definition, any circuity triggered by time is useless because it's impossible to determine when in the future, it'll be required.

    And (1) is easily defended against by not connecting your critical defense hardware to any network of any kind. Or by using 3rd party firewalls which have not been made in China/Russia/Iran...

    So this is much todo about nothing IMHO.

  86. We're talking about the New York Times here by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 1

    Even during the Bush administration, the New York Times regularly leaked classified information without consequence. Don't expect infosec to be tighter now!

    --
    That that is is that that that that is not is not.
  87. Secret enhancements by contrast by twosat · · Score: 1

    I remember reading in the late 80's that many US weapon electronics actually had hidden enhanced capabilities and/or features, that in an emergency could be unlocked by some sort of code or special sequence of settings that was kept secret from its normal operators.