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Justice Dept. Asked For Broad Swath of IndyMedia's Visitor Records
DesScorp writes "In a case that tests whether online and independent journalism has the same protections as mainstream journalism, the Justice Department sent Indymedia a grand jury subpoena. It requires a list of all visitors on a day, and further, a gag order to Indymedia 'not to disclose the existence of this request.' CBS reports that 'Kristina Clair, a 34-year-old Linux administrator living in Philadelphia who provides free server space for Indymedia.us, said she was shocked to receive the Justice Department's subpoena,' and that 'The subpoena from US Attorney Tim Morrison in Indianapolis demanded "all IP traffic to and from www.indymedia.us" on June 25, 2008. It instructed Clair to "include IP addresses, times, and any other identifying information," including e-mail addresses, physical addresses, registered accounts, and Indymedia readers' Social Security Numbers, bank account numbers, credit card numbers, and so on.' Clair is being defended by the Electronic Frontier Foundation."
EVERY electronic communication ( domestic and international) is intercepted.
Yours In Prokopyevsk,
Kilgore Trout
Say hello to the new boss.
The biggest worry to me is the line "...not to disclose the request". They can issue a bogus request and get shot down via proper channels. But asking everyone to keep it a secret smells fishy.
"Maybe this world is another planet's hell"
Aldous Huxley
Whaaaaat, Your Honor??? Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome my 24-hour-data-retention-policy is!
Fuck that subpeona.
In the ear.
With a Siberian ice dildo.
Can't stop the Beta? Time to evacuate to ##altslashdot at webchat.freenode.net - Slashcott in effect.
I want to know why admins keep this information if they are running a website that could be the subject of a subpoena? Delete the fucking shit already and be done with it. Then, when the feds come knocking, you simply reply, "I'm sorry my http.conf is setup to direct logs to /dev/null. Have a nice day."
FRCP Rule 37 states:
Absent exceptional circumstances, a court may not impose sanctions under these rules on a party for failing to provide electronically stored information lost as a result of the routine, good-faith operation of an electronic information system.
Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad.
I wonder how long it will be until states start seceding from the union.
Why would anyone be shocked by something like this? It's not like it hasn't happened before. One thing about LIberals and Conservatives, they both like control. Their idealogies may not be the same but their methods aren't that different.
Since the subpoena was dropped in February 2009, why did it take until November 2009 to make into the press?
I remember a Supreme Court case several years ago that dealt with the question of who is considered to be The Press. I think it involved acquiring Press credentials. The Court decided that a member of the Press is anyone who is acting in that capacity, whether full time or part time. It didn't matter if the person was employed by a large corporation, or was part of a middle school glee club.
To be fair, I am demanding that US Attorney Tim Morrison post his own bank account and credit card numbers online.
Sorry, I don't have any logs since before 9/2008, but I'm thinking about a 4 month retention policy on logs.
Obviously, I don't run a high traffic site.
Good enough to get started:
find . -mtime +160 -exec sudo rm -f {} \;
Ok. The news article is new, but the content is anything but.
The subpoena was withdrawn in a one sentence letter in late Feburary 2009 after the EFF sent a letter to the DOJ pointing out the problems with the subpeona.
We're only hearing about all of it now. It is troubling that the DOJ will not come out and say what the original motivation for even sending the subpoena in the first and is being mum about it all.
On top of that, the dates are all mixed up. The subpoena was sent in June 2008, according to the CBS article. However, the EFF says it wasn't received until January 30th 2009. This is important to note as Obama took office the 20th. The EFF's letter was sent Feb. 13th, with a return letter from the DOJ on the 25th.
My guess, it was probably a rookie lawyer who sent a badly worded request to SysAdmin during the confusion of a new president taking office.
import system.cool.Sig;
Since this is being tried in Federal Courts there is no shield law to protect journalists from turning over their records. Only individual states have shield laws.
Whoops. The dates ARE NOT mixed up.
Figures I'd realize this after the dates.
Anywho, the original subpoena was sent on the 23rd of January, 2009.
Why the heck would anyone want traffic that old?
import system.cool.Sig;
This non-obviousness needs a mod!
Since when are lists of readers or subscribers protected information, specifically protect from revelation through subpoena?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Since when do webservers log your SSN and bank account or credit card numbers?
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Before answering your question, let me address that weird "if they are running a website that could be the subject of a subpoena" qualifier. Does that somehow distinguish any website from any other? Nobody knows they're not ever going to be a subpoena, so let's be clear: we're talking about all computer admins (website or other) here.
So.. why do people keep logs? Because it's easy; disk space is cheap. And some day, I might want to reanalyze my traffic in a way that I haven't though of, or stored summaries of, yet. Who knows what sort of traffic analysis report my boss (or I!) might want next week? Storing the raw data is a way to deal with that.
But yeah.. this comes with risk. Do I think I might be subpoenaed someday, and therefore my users will get screwed? No, I don't think it will happen, just like I don't think I'll get killed in a car accident on the way home tonight. IndyMedia's people probably had the same attitude. And yes, risks with small probabilities do sometimes happen, so it's worth thinking "what if?" I don't know if that's enough to change my log storage policies, though.
It can't happen to m~f7dsgNO CARRIER
This is one more reason to have a posted retention policy stating that server logs will be removed after 30/60/90 days or stripped of identifying information. You can always get historical visitor data, trends, etc. from Google Analytics (with no IPs showing) sans logfiles.
Unless their is some legal compulsion to do so why not just destroy all traces of data that flows to a site every day or two? Just why is there any need to hang on to all of that information?
One question that I haven't seen asked yet is why June 25, 2008? A scan of indymedia's articles didn't turn up anything earth shattering on that day or the day before. Thoughts?
On that date? What was the big scary story to them?
Only the calls with one of the ends outside America were ever "spied" on. Whether that's legal or not, it is hardly a "wholesale" spying on a public, the majority of whom have never been abroad nor personally know a foreigner. For domestic calls, the only things captured were the fact of the calls — not the conversation itself.
This, I believe, was always legal — the government never needed a warrant to look at your envelops at the Post Office, for example — as long as they weren't opening them. On the other hand, foreign mail was always subject to check by the government, and expanding that power of the Executive to phone calls is not entirely illogical...
Keep your exaggerations in line, in other words... Even if it were illegal, calling it "wholesale" is a flamebait...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Here are some of the possibles
state police infiltrating peace groups
news of demos at the national D and R conventions
http://indymedia.us/or/syndicated/2008/7.shtml
You have to scroll down to july 25th to see all of them, those look the most likely though
BULLSHIT
Wait! It gets even better!
Environmental Agency Warns 2 Staff Lawyers Over Video Criticizing Climate Policy
When is Slashdot going to run THAT story? The oh-so-fucking-transparent OBAMA administration censoring dissent!
I can hardly wait for this bunch of assclowns to put themselves in charge of health care!
Woo hoo! That will be even more "change we can believe in".
Obama's the one needing change - changed like a baby's full diaper.
Ah yes... the old triple double cross with a backflip onto the reverse side of a mobius strip. It gets them every time.
...Indymedia readers' Social Security Numbers, bank account numbers, credit card numbers, and so on.'
Are we sure this was a DOJ subpoena and not a phishing scheme? Who puts their SSN into a news website profile?
Just leave the Anarchist Arguement Club alone. Now you've asked for it!!!
you do NOT want the siberian ice dildo treatment, especially in the ear. its been tried and it works:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8543908/
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
the american left and right wing is far to the left
what makes his perspective any less valid than yours?
or rather, with what arrogance do you suppose your ideological perspective is a valid perspective?
the truth is, ideology is a bell curve in any country, and within the usa, which is a democracy, the right and the left compete over the middle of this bell curve for support. this keeps the left and right wing in the usa from becoming too radical, because if they do drift too far right or left, they would lose support, and therefore power. we saw this with the election of barack obama because the republicans had become too beholden of ideological purists form the far right. and we see the continuing soul searching of the republican party now between ideological purists (who represent republican defeat, but they don't know it, because their appeal is on the fringe of the bell curve) and pragmatists who wish to moderate the republican party to regain power
in other words: dmeocracy works. it moderates and stabilizes left and right wing forces
of course, someone from outside the country (or on the fringe of the bell curve within that country) would see everyone to be vastly left wing or vastly right wing... but who cares? what validity does that person have to criticize? the validity of right and left wing is objectively and coherently defined as what lies to the left and right of the middle of the ideological bell curve of the country in question. all other perspectives are simply invalid and pointless, because they do not represent the actual middle ground of the will of the people
the ONLY valid ideological point of view is that of the middle of the bell curve of a population. what makes this point of view of paramount validity is that this is the point of view that determines maximum political stability for that population. since in a democracy, parties are constantly scrambling to maximize their influence, their platforms are constantly being tweaked to seek out this moderate ideology as best as possible
in other words, democracy works, despite invalid snark from the fringes of the bell curve and from outside the country, and you should be happy that this process is healthy in the usa as demonstrated by the last presidential election
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
So basically the subpoena was prepared long before Obama and sent out before he actually got to matters at hand, and when EFF received it and inquired about it specifically, it was promptly dismissed by then-Obama's DoJ?
But... but... where's the left-wing conspiracy?
there are of course a million dimensions of ideology. there's gun toting right wingers... who grow pot on their rural farms. there's gay people... who are mostly right wing in thinking (the log cabin republicans). there's very religious people... who are utterly socialist in their thinking about taking care of the community, by the community. etc., etc., etc, ad nauseum. for every issue, there is a dimension of opinions. and there's a million issues. and you could mix up make up the most seemingly contradictory impossible ideology of various opinions on various issues, and you'll probably find at least someone out there who believes that with a serious straight face
but there's not a million dimensions THAT MATTER. there's only one that matters
there is one dimension which hangs over all ideological dimensions, and is, in effect, the master dimension. we don't talk about left and right wing because we are simpletons and reductionists, we talk about left and right wing because this is an entirely real and completely dominant ideological pivot, a genuinely valuable metric to use when debating politics:
rate of change
those on the far left want change too rapidly. faster than society can adapt to and absorb. resulting in societal overheating, friction, and eventual societal break down and anarchy. those on the far right don't want change at all, or even backwards movement. which results in stasis, stultification, and impoverishment due to feeble backwardness and ignorance
so what is the most valid rate of change? society determines that, at least in a democracy, with competing parties constantly seeking out the most support from the most people by seeking the most moderate rate of change in the center possible, while straddling and waffling to keep their radical fringes reasonably happy as well. democracy is self-correcting and self-seeking on the sweet spot of rate of change for its population. you see that in the current healthcare debate
democracy works, it really does. it doesn't work from the perspective of "this is my ideology and i want everyone to agree with me", which is the usual retarded criticism of democracy from fringe idiots
but democracy DOES work from the point of view of: "this is the bell curve of ideologies out there. find me the sweet spot and make that the value system of the government in charge"
and when a government most accurately reflects the will of the people, you have met really the only metric possible for determining validity of a government. stability, legitimacy: it enables peace, tranquility, education, progress, economic growth, and everything else you value in good governance and a happy stable rich and productive society
but of course, loud, ignorant ideologues from the fringe will never see the value in such weird concepts. social stability? pffft. to them, the government is evil, corrupt, fascist, communist, corporatocracy, idiocracy, etc... zzz
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
its always a choice between the guy who wants change to go a little faster and the guy who wants change to go a little slower
any other candidates, who represent more fringe positions, are not viable candidates
if no political parties existed (which is impossible: its politics, people associate) or if there were 3, or 4 or 5 major parties (which would naturally devolve to 2 truly powerful parties anyway, along the main ideological axis), there would still only be 2 valid candidates along the only ideological axis that really matters
if there were 3, and 2 had similar views, they would simply cannibalize each others support and the other guy would win, regardless of your voting method, political parties, etc
your views are just sort of a wallowing in pessimism and helplessness
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
those are concerns that are served by international relations, not internal democratic processes
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
That makes sense as well, thanks for your reply.
the role of a democracy is to serve the citizens of a country
i simply don't know how you are relating that to the issue of what happens outside the country
your complaint is simply out of context to the subject matter
i'm sure your government shares your concerns, and i'm sure your government has aired those concerns with their american counterparts. just as representatives of the american government has aired any complaints about your country's behavior on the international stage. what else do you want done?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
We had that this year for the first tyme in the elections where I live. Voters choice their 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on choices. What I'd like to added is another choice, who you do not want to win. Then subtract that from the others. All this would be better than voting for the 'lesser of two evils'.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Same as the old. What do you expect? Just as I feared Obama is turning out to be a bad choice. I am disgusted I voted for him.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
to place all political thought and opinion on a single-dimensional scale?
sounds pretty simple-minded to me, but then being a zeppo, your view of politics is probably fucked up beyond all recognition
"the ONLY valid ideological point of view is" undoubtedly, oddly enough, close to your personal point of view, one would expect, at least, from your point of view, of course.
last, and certainly not least, who in their right mind could possibly state that the democratic process "is healthy in the usa" - lol - you fucking kill me !!!! and then you tell me the process is "healthy", simply because you, personally, are not dead.
yours sincerely,
someone anonymously "invalid"
So basically the subpoena was prepared long before Obama and sent out before he actually got to matters at hand, and when EFF received it and inquired about it specifically, it was promptly dismissed by then-Obama's DoJ?
But... but... where's the left-wing conspiracy?
We infiltrated the Bush administration just so we could cover our tracks.
- the vast left-wing conspiracy.