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Two Sunken Japanese Submarines Found Off Hawaii
Ponca City, We love you writes "The NY Times reports that two World War II Japanese submarines, including one meant to carry aircraft for attacks on American cities, have been found in deep water off Hawaii where they were sunk in 1946. Specifically designed for a stealth attack on the US East Coast — perhaps targeting Washington, DC and New York City — the 'samurai subs' were fast, far-ranging, and some carried folding-wing aircraft. Five Japanese submarines were captured by American forces at the end of the war and taken to Pearl Harbor for study, then towed to sea and torpedoed, probably to avoid having to share any of their technology with the Russian military. One of the Japanese craft, the I-201, was covered with a rubberized coating on the hull, an innovation intended to make it less apparent to sonar or radar; it was capable of speeds of about 20 knots while submerged, making it among the fastest diesel submarines ever made. The other, the I-14, much larger and slower, was designed to carry two small planes, Aichi M6A Seirans that could be brought onto the deck and launched by a catapult. The submarines were meant to threaten the United States directly, but none of the attacks occurred because the subs were developed too late in the war, and American intelligence was too good. 'It's very moving to see objects like this underwater,' says Hans Van Tilburg of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, 'because it's a very peaceful environment, but these subs were designed for aggression.'"
Speaking as a guy who's spent time on modern boats, anyone who can get the opportunity to tour a submarine should do so without delay. It's awesome to see photos, but it's even better when you seen the insides at work.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
It's very moving to see objects like this underwater
Compared to those damn flying submarines...
some nerds like history.
How does that work? See this.
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
When I first read this headline, I thought they had located the missing midget submarine used to attack Pearl Harbor. (See this) This is not the case. That ship still remains lost.
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
No, like the catapults on aircraft carriers. Similar concept, hence the term catapult.
Well, it's a teaser. It always amazes me at how advanced the Germans and Japanese were in some things, and just how arrogant and stupid the Americans were. (Of course the same could be said for all participants, but as victors, the Americans wrote the history after the war.)
American Generals refused to believe the early reports of the speed and agility of the Zero. British Generals refused to fund the development of the jet engine until the Germans fielded theirs.
Now I learn that the Japanese were playing with submarine stealth technology.
Lots of good stuff for geeks; just gotta do your homework and not wait to be spoonfed.
Back in tha day, they had to use a big boom arm for ships without a deck. For recovery, the aircraft would land next to the ship/sub and a big crane would just hoist them out of the water. this page shows a pretty similar process for an old OS2U-3 Kingfisher. Some pretty cool pix at the bottom of the page. I wouldn't want to be the pilot during recovery.
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
Albert Einstein
Earth's only hope for survival will be to resurrect these two subs as spaceships to kick some Gamilon ass.
"Leader Dessslok, it's as if we're fighting a ghost ship! How can an old Earth submarine defeat all of Gamilon?"
Hurry Starforce, there are only 57 days before all life on Earth becomes extinct!
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
And yes the aircraft were recoverable by the sub crew: they were seaplanes, and would be picked up by a crane aboard the sub.
You can read a summary of US-mainland attacks here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_United_States_territory_in_North_America_during_World_War_II#Japanese_assaults
I have no special gift, I am only passionately curious. --Albert Einstein
Well, it's a teaser. It always amazes me at how advanced the Germans and Japanese were in some things, and just how arrogant and stupid the Americans were. (Of course the same could be said for all participants, but as victors, the Americans wrote the history after the war.)
American Generals refused to believe the early reports of the speed and agility of the Zero. British Generals refused to fund the development of the jet engine until the Germans fielded theirs.
Now I learn that the Japanese were playing with submarine stealth technology.
Lots of good stuff for geeks; just gotta do your homework and not wait to be spoonfed.
Yet the countries with the advanced high-tech military hardware still fell to the swarming hordes that out-produced them materially. A lesson the US probably should keep in mind going into the 21st century.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
The 25 Museum Submarines Located Across The USA - Listed In Order Of Launch Date
Currently steam for the launchers, though electromagentic rails are being designed as upgrades.
The hydralics are used to slow the arresting cables down. And for the big elevators.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Thank God those whales and dolphins bombed Hiroshima or we might have had to face more of these things.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
The fact that you dont also seem amazed at the arrogance of the Japanese general staff, the German high command, etc. or any officers of those countries seems to indicate that you haven't had an in-depth study of the war. Or any war, for that fact. War is arrogance.
The axis forces of WWII made many arrogant mistakes, like not believing in convoys (Japanese), not believing allies had broken their codes (Japanese and German), not believing that their own governments could come up with anything like a "death camp," etc. Arrogance ran up and down the command structure on both sides of that particular war.
And even though it's more exciting to talk about secret Japanese and German technology, don't forget that the misuse of secret technology was a specialty of all parties involved in the war; Japan was making better suicide planes, Germany was mastering the infrastructure of genocide, and so on.
wonder if aircraft recovery was even a possibility
It was. The aircraft were fitting for water landings and the subs had cranes to lift them back on deck.
This ain't rocket surgery.
The Freudian implications of a large, phallically-shaped object coated in rubber cannot be ignored.
This ain't rocket surgery.
4 bangs are required because 3 would leave you with "sanpatsu," and everyone knows that giant reptilian monsters don't need haircuts. It's a matter of cultural sensitivity, my friend - 4 bangs or more.
A little tangential here, but it may be interesting to engineering nerds.
I got a description of some of the workings of standard carrier catapults from a co-worker who used to be stationed on one. This is maybe 20 years old, so our tech may have changed since then. Apparently they have (had?) a supply of hour-glass shaped steel widgets on board color-coded to match the aircraft being launched. When it was time to launch, they would grab the appropriate size/color and insert it as an intentional weak-link in line with the cable before firing up the winch. When the cable was properly tensioned, the steel widget would break and release the cable throwing the plane into the air.
Kind of a neat design idea if you can't just haul the cable along fast enough to throw the plane.
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
This reminded me of some of the more bizarre German aircraft's of the period (see the vertically launched Bachem Ba 349 Natter). Some of the proposed methods of aircraft/pilot recovery were pretty interesting (from using the plane as a suicide bomber, to breaking off the wings and opening a rear-mounted parachute when fuel runs out). It's also interesting to point out that many of the Japanese submarines were intended for suicide missions themselves.
Does this smell like Chloroform to you?
USS Silversides (SS-236) Active in WWII from April of 1941 to July 1945, and saw quite a bit of action.
Can be seen at the Great Lakes Naval Memorial & Museum.
In Muskegon, MI. They have several "overnight" programs for Cub Scouts and Indian Guides and such so you can spend the night sleeping in the bunks, as well as eat in the galley, watch Das Boot, etc. Very very very cool for kids and adults both.
With the first link, the chain is forged.
The Japanese were convinced that Dolittle's raid was conducted by submarine launched bombers to such an extent they spent an enormous amount of effort developing them.
Like many such items during the war - these subs attempted too many innovations in one jump and were not reliable. The Germans and the Japanese had a penchant for attempting to produce super weapons as opposed to incremental improvements in existing stuff. Some of what they produced was incredible, but none of it was really ready for prime time, or available in sufficient quantity to significantly have any effect on the war.
One of the most draconian decisions of the war was on the part of the US - it was recognized that the Sherman was no match for the heavier German tanks. There were some improvements, but the US counted on the fact that we were producing and delivering tanks at a rate that outstripped the Germans ability to destroy them or replace their own.
...carrier dead.....
Like Japan wasn't bombing civilians? Or Germany? Or Britain? Or Russia? Or _ANYONE ELSE_?
That's how wars were fought in those days. Get over it. We didn't have smart bombs, we couldn't take out a specific building, or even a specific city block. And their war industries were located right in the middle of their major cities. We had no other choices. The only way to stop their military was to carpet bomb their cities, or though a direct ground assault. And do you realize how many _more_ people would have died had we not dropped those bombs? We would have kept carpet-bombing their cities (killing civilians), we would have been stuck in war taking these tiny little islands for _months_, possibly _years_ (killing hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and plenty more civilians), and with the Japanese mindset at the time we likely would have had to march our troops right up to the emperor's palace before they would have surrendered. These are the same people who were using Kamikaze aircraft. Do you really think they would have surrendered, ever? Yes, it was a horrible act, but it was the best option we had at the time - though I will admit we should have waited before dropping the second bomb - from what I've heard they didn't even fully know what the first one did before we dropped the second. From what I've heard they basically ignored the initial reports because they didn't think such a thing was even possible.
Today, yes, killing civilians is a horrible thing to do. But that's pretty easy to say when you have the capability to fire a missile from hundreds of miles away and take out a single room of a building without harming anything around it. It's easy to criticize when you're 60 years away. But by your logic every single army in history, including those acting in defense, and civilian militias, are guilty of horrific and cowardly atrocities. In those days, when a nation went to war, _the entire nation_ went to war. There really were no civilians in the sense that there are today. Every single citizen was in some way involved in the war effort.
I am no expert, but my impression is that aircraft cat systems haven't changed significantly in those 20 years.
But in the US Navy's next carrier class, it will.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
The Allies also had plenty of leading edge technology. It is hard to have a consistent edge across the entire spectrum. The Allies had more advanced technology in certain areas such as the cavity magnetron for radar, strategic bombers such as the B-17, Avro Lancaster and B-29, fighter aircraft such as the Spitfire, tanks such as the T-34 and IS-2, Bazooka, Katyusha MLRS, code breaking such as ULTRA and MAGIC intercepts. Victory at the Battle of Midway was possible because the USA knew of the attack beforehand from code breaking for example.
I don't think they did very well - I seem to recall reading that not one was ever used successfully.
They were used successfully (from the wikipedia article):
1 April 1945: Six "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. At least one makes a successful attack, with its Ohka hitting one of the 406 mm (16 in) turrets on West Virginia, causing moderate damage.
12 April 1945: Nine "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. Mannert L. Abele is hit, breaks in two, and sinks. Witnessed by LSMR-189 CO James M. Stewart. Jeffers destroys an Ohka with AA fire 45 m (50 yd) from the ship, but the resulting explosion is still powerful enough to cause extensive damage, forcing Jeffers to withdraw. Stanly is targeted by two Ohkas. One strikes just above the waterline, with the charge punching through the other side of the hull before detonating, causing little damage to the ship, and the other Ohka narrowly missed and crashed into the sea, knocking off the Stanly's ensign in the process
4 May 1945: Seven "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. One Ohka hits the bridge of Shea, causing extensive damage and casualties. Gayety is also damaged by a near-miss by an Ohka. One "Betty" returns.
11 May 1945: Four "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. Hugh W. Hadley is hit, suffers extensive damage and flooding. Vessel judged beyond repair.
"Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley
A pragmatist might have pointed out that turbo shaft engines were really not practical in the 1940s for land vehicles (it was hard enough to use them in planes) and considerable time and expense was probably saved by not heavily researching them. Even today they're still problematic--the Abrams is a fuel hog with an enormous IR signature.
I read the internet for the articles.
As Stalin once said, quantity has a quality of its own. It's great it you can produce one tank that will kill five of the enemy's; until of course your enemy starts producing six tanks for every one of yours.
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
I'd never heard before about a Japanese one. The german u-boat U480 that was apparently recently re-located used a rubberized coating intended to absorb sonar to make it less easy to detect. Other sources I've read claim it was covered in some sort of polyurethane that, as it cured, developed engineered-size air pockets that were tuned to absorb sonar pulses. I'm assuming they transferred the technology to Japan, because I've read some about the subject and there's a lot of literature on the German program but I'd never heard about the Japanese one before. One of the things I found interesting about it was that the USA and USSR sub designers apparently didn't try to develop this sort of technology for another 30 years after WWII, preferring to concentrate on making the subs quieter.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
The Allies also had plenty of leading edge technology. It is hard to have a consistent edge across the entire spectrum.
Of course the allies led in technology. That's why they won the war. There's a certain luxury to develop new technologies when you're fighting at arm's length (in the case of Britain post 1940 and the US) vs being right in the thick of things. The Soviets had already won the tank design part - as early as 1941 I believe it was von Rundstedt that commented, on inspecting a captured Soviet T-34: "If ever the Soviets can mass produce this tank, we've lost the war". Individually German tanks were far superior. However they were far more complex, resulting in engineering, maintenance and manufacturing difficulties. The Soviets had a good simple design that could take a beating and was easy to make and maintain.
Germany was, after the start of Barbarossa and the stall in the offensive, in a fight for her life. That leaves very little budget for R&D. And with 20-20 hind-sight too much of it went to tank and artillery development (a losing proposition because they were going to be beaten by sheer numbers anyway), and not enough of it to asymmetric warfare like U-Boats or aircraft. Imagine a Germany capable of sealing off the North Atlantic with hordes of type XXI U-boats, or bombing the Ural tank factories and the Norfolk shipyards with long range bombers (read about the Amerika Bomber project that got cancelled)/strategic rockets!
The Japanese were never going to win, period, unless Germany managed a complete victory in Europe and took on the US. Yamamoto even knew this before the war started. They were too small, and trying to grab too much of an empire.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
You might want to read Arthur Clarke's old story "Superiority."
The wonder weapon often has significant hidden flaws or doesn't make it to the battlefield in time be decisive.
A downed Zero was recovered from the Aleutians in July 42, rebuilt and flown for testing:
"The Zero had superior maneuverability only at the lower speeds used in dogfighting, with short turning radius and excellent aileron control at very low speeds. However, immediately apparent was the fact that the ailerons froze up at speeds above two hundred knots, so that rolling maneuvers at those speeds were slow and required much force on the control stick. It rolled to the left much easier than to the right. Also, its engine cut out under negative acceleration [as when nosing into a dive] due to its float-type carburetor.
"We now had an answer for our pilots who were unable to escape a pursuing Zero. We told them to go into a vertical power dive, using negative acceleration, if possible, to open the range quickly and gain advantageous speed while the Zero's engine was stopped. At about two hundred knots, we instructed them to roll hard right before the Zero pilot could get his sights lined up."
Advanced U.S. fighters produced toward the war's end still couldn't turn with the Zero, but they were faster and could outclimb and outdive it.
Without self-sealing fuel tanks, the Zero was easily flamed when hit in any of its three wing and fuselage tanks or its droppable belly tank. And without protective armor, its pilot was vulnerable.
Koga's Zero
A) Believing every rumor is NOT the opposite of arrogance.
B) In fact, they had good reason to disbelieve the reports. Their only problem was that they made certain assumptions about how much of a death-trap the Japanese military were willing to make their planes... Get rid of all armor, and a plane can climb much faster. Of course it dives MUCH SLOWER, so upon figuring this out this fact, future dogfights became immensely one-sided.
High tech for high tech's sake is usually a bad move. German jets were just slightly faster than the fastest prop aircraft, and really diverted resources away from better uses of that money.
Not really true. Things like radar were also highly advanced military technologies, which the US/Brits had, and the Germans/Japanese did not.
In short, the Axis were only slightly more advanced than the Allies. Where the level of military technology is more disparate, it certainly can and does become an overwhelming advantage.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
The Japanese managed to launch 2 attacks on the US mainland early in WW2 (Sept. 1942) dropping incendiary bombs near Bandon, Oregon in an attempt to start forest fires. See the Lookout Air Raids. They were able to recover the airplanes without a problem and the pilot Nobuo Fujita lived until 1997.
So basically your saying that you wish people were killed to prevent the killing of other people. I suppose the irony is lost on you.
Like the other poster, I think you meant the F6F Hellcat. The F4F was slower than a Zero and couldn't come close to out-performing it. It had the advantage in the dives, and it was much tougher, which kept the carnage down to some extent, but performance-wise, no way.
You are right that the Zero greatly out-performed the Brewster Buffalo, but even at the start of the war a Spitfire would have been a very good match to the Zero head-to-head, and the later Marks of the Spitfire ran rings around the Zero. The only advantage the Zero had over the Spitfire was range, but that (as noted) was due to lack of armor, self-sealing tanks, etc. Not that they ever met much, head to head, but you certainly would prefer a Spitfire.
The Zero was pretty good in 1939 but not any better than other contemporary land-based fighters like the BF-109 or the Spitfire. It was better than almost all the carrier-based planes at the time, but not a lot in terms of kill ratio. The Wildcats held their own respectably well and the P-40 had a pretty good record, and they are both pretty doggy airplanes by later war standards. And the Zero never really got a lot better. By even 1941 was out-classed by most of the newer Allied airplanes and it's own stablemates. The Zero had a terrible record when it came up against the P-38 or later the F6F, Mustang, or Corsair. Although they didn't really meet, any model of the Zero would have been dead meat in 1943 against any front-line US, British, or Luftwaffe fighter.
Brett
"Of course the allies led in technology. That's why they won the war. "
The Allies won the war because of Hitler's master plan:
10 Invade your neighbour
20 Goto 10
30 An empire which will exist for 1000 years!
The U.S. was fully prepared to declare Germany the winner in Europe and let life go on.
Technology did end the war in the Pacific though. But if Hitler didn't declare war on the U.S. and Russia, regardless of the Pacific, Europe would be a Nazi superpower. It was a strange time in history. The man was clearly insane.
Looking at the history, it seems like war was inevitable. Hitler started sabre-rattling and the USSR then Japan all followed suit. It was like all this new weapons technology came about just waiting for the nuts to take advantage of it. These aircraft, bombers and stuff existed in a world where people could clearly remember a time before aircraft or the automobile were invented.
And that makes me think about current changes in technology, and how we all remember a time when the government didn't have computers, cameras and all this new tech to track everyone's move and create/destroy mass information at a whim. What's going to happen in 10 years?
Yet the countries with the advanced high-tech military hardware still fell to the swarming hordes that out-produced them materially.
It wasn't that simple.
If you look at Germany vs USSR, for example, it's a common myth that USSR won by "swarming hordes", human wave attacks, etc. The myth is also wrong. There are very few documented cases of human wave attacks by the USSR - it was well known by then that this simply doesn't work against machine guns (so what you've seen in e.g. "Enemy at the Gates" is pure bullshit).
Tech difference was also nowhere hear as great as some people make it out to be. To have a look at some points...
German tanks were generally better armored and had longer range guns, yes - but their mechanical complexity was such that they were much more likely to break down than Soviet counterparts; and, of course, sloped armor in T-34 was a major design and engineering breakthrough all of its own, and contributed towards making the cheap yet versatile killing machine that it become. IS-2 was a very successful design, too - capable of taking on German Tigers and Panthers on its own, and yet smaller than Tiger, and cheaper and more reliable than either Tiger or Panther.
In terms of infantry weapons, it was also not at all clear. German Mauser infantry rifles were slightly better than Mosin Nagant (knife bayo, non-rimmed ammunition, and often better construction), but not enough to make a difference. Soviets had semi-automatic rifles earlier than Germans (SVT), and they were of better quality, too (enough so to make sniper versions of them), compared to German G43 (G41 was pretty much unusable from the get go). Soviet SMGs were somewhat better (PPSh in particular, but also the later PPS). German MGs were clearly superior overall, though Soviet DP was lighter and closer to a modern LMG than any of the German ones. Soviet hand grenades were significantly better designed than the German "potato masher" (even accounting for design differences in offensive vs defensive grenades). German AT infantry weapons were much better than Russian small-caliber and mostly useless AT rifles.
In terms of combat planes, it was also a draw. Early Soviet designs were generally worse, later designs were on par, and better in some conditions.
To conclude: WW2 Eastern Front was not an instance of a "horde of barbarians" overrunning a high-tech but resource-limited army. Resource limits did play a part in it, but high tech was used by both sides of the conflict, and it is very unlikely that USSR would've won if it went for quantity alone.
"for all the marvelous engineering and history surrounding the ship, it was a ship made for war and therefore AWESOME!"
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The submarine type mentioned, the one designed to carry folding aircraft and a catapult for launching, was actually used in the only aerial attack on the contiguous United States by the Japanese during WWII (both Alaska and Hawaii were attacked by aircraft) if one does not count the numerous attack balloons sent aloft by the Japanese.
One of these submarines surfaced off the coast of Oregon and launched one of it's folding aircraft. The plane then flew over forested tracts of land and dropped (by hand!) small incendiary bombs in an effort to start large-scale forest fires. One of these bombs landed on property NW of Langlois, Oregon, property that my Aunt and Uncle owned at the time. Fortunately, the Japanese had not taken into account just how damp the woods along that coast are during the summer months and they simply blew up a few trees. It is not unheard of for it to be raining there in June/July. The desired fires never happened.
It is unknown what became of the plane, but it is assumed it landed near the submarine (I believe they were float-equipped, but incapable of a water launch and thus needed the catapult), was folded up and stowed below deck again.
Though I do not recall the title, there is a book on the subject.
There was also an unverified report of a submarine off the coast of San Diego. An alarm was sounded but the sighting was later questioned.
By the way, there was also one British submarine seaplane carrier, the M2.
...which completely explains why we had to drop two of them before they surrendered. Surely they were in no hurry to lose another major city.
The bombs were dropped because it was completely clear to all that the japanese of that time were going to dig in as deep as possible and were all willing to fight to the death. If you run the math, the number killed by those two bombs is far less than the casualties would have been on just the Allies side had we had to actually invade Japan. Imagine the scale of damage to Japan (the country and the populace) if the rest of the world had been forced to invade to put an end to it?
At first glance it may seem like an absurd conclusion, but really, those bombs did Japan a favor. In the long run they saved a lot more Japanese lives than they took. The emperor had the entire populace wound up to fight to the death and that's about the only thing that was going to change his mind.
Although surely actually nuking someone beats sabor rattling any day, but that was a positive side-effect, not the deciding factor, by a long shot.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.