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German President Refuses To Sign Censorship Law
thetinytoon writes "German federal president Horst Köhler has refused to sign a law to block child pornography that passed Parliament earlier this year, stating that he 'needs more information.' In Germany, the federal president has the right to reject a law only if its passage violated the order mandated by the constitution, or if it is obviously unconstitutional — he can't veto a law simply because he disagrees with it. The law was passed under a coalition government, but a different coalition took power before the law reached the president's desk. Political observers guess that the political parties would like to get rid of the law without losing face, but since it has already passed the Parliament, they can't simply abandon it."
... or at least according to the former family affairs minister - she said that everyone who is against this law is either a paedophile criminal or their lobby.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Well, obviously this guy supports child pornography.
Either that OR he wants to make sure that the censorship law is congruent with the German constitution.
Take a wild guess which of those two options is going to dominate headlines...
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
This may come off as a troll, but I'm legitimately curious:
I'm from the US. I have an adequate understanding of various forms of government, including parliamentary forms, but Germany's constitution and government really just drive me crazy with lack of understanding. I think perhaps a big part of that is cultural and being raised in a country with different values. The idea that the president can't veto a law, and that the only checks against parliamentary power are the constitution itself kind of bugs me a little. The German system in general bugs me a little I suppose, because I place such high value in free speech and things Germany apparently values differently. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying I don't understand.
What I'd honestly like to understand is what the cultural differences are, and if anyone knows -WHY- they exist. Why is it that the US seems to have such a high value on free speech at least theoretically whereas Europe in general (Germany in particular) does not?
Maybe someone who has lived in the US and Germany and understands both governments could just write up a brief opinion, because I'm trying to understand without being a "US Imperialist" and saying OH WELL THEY'RE JUST WRONG AND NEED LIBERATIN' but I'd like to get an insider's view.
Ahhhh every not ever... damn you irony!
CATS/Diebold '08- All your vote are belong to us!
This is a censorship law pushed through legislation smartly framed as "Blocking Child Pornography." So, when the question comes up, are you against or for child pornography? Of course, the correct question is, are you for or against blanket policy allowing government censorship of the only free/cheap mass information medium in the world under the pretense of protecting children?
And, in the realm of censorship, Germany seems to have the most sense (amongst Western nations incl. U.S. and England) , probably having already gone through the fiery blindness of mad political rampage in the past.
For more on framing and how it defines the political scene (esp. in the U.S.) check this interview with George Lakoff, professor in linguistics. Here's a list of his lectures on YouTube.
To make this clear:
The coalition in Germany has changed, yet the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) which is the major part of the present coalition (CDU + FDP) also participated in the last coaltion (2005-2009) consisting of the SPD (German Social Democratic Party) and the CDU. The law was initiated by the CDU (without opposition from the SPD, to be true, but also without much enthusiasm) and they really did their best to have it passed.
The same people who initiated it are now trying to stop it - not because they suddenly came to their senses, but because they wanted it so bad they fucked it up. They still want it, they just have to make a better (more in line with the German constitution) attempt. If they don't stop it now, it is likely that it will fail in the court (Federal Constitutional Court), which will make it harder for a seccond attempt (and cause more negative publicity).
The Federal President is also ideologically associated to the CDU (although he is not allowed to be part any party), and he would be part of it, if he hadn't been elected as President. He won his election because of the support he got from the CDU. So he, too, didn't develop some common sense but is just helping his mates.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
First of all I wonder why you always use the term "censorship" if it is clearly not appropriated?
The law is about blocking a web site, that was found distributing child porn.
Not quite. The law is about establishing a nationwide site-blocking infrastructure at ISPs. Which sites are to be
blocked is supposed be decided by the BKA (federal police - roughly comparable to the FBI) without involvement
of a judge or any further oversight, and of course the blocking list is to be kept secret, because it could be misused
as a "shopping list" by evildoers.
Additionally, the first version of the law had a logging provision, where the detection of somebody trying to access
one of those blocked sites would be probable cause for investigating the person for certain crimes. I believe this was dropped,
but you get the idea...
This law is about much, much more than just child porn.
I don't understand what the hell is going in modern society that we suddenly think there are hoards of paedophiles everywhere. The only thing that might have changed in the last 50 years is that child porn may be more accessible now that it was before, but child porn doesn't make people into paedophiles any more than Kylie Minogue makes people homosexual.
I would (sort of) understand it if this was just a stupid legislative thing - ie making laws to ban child porn in order to get more powers to spy on ordinary people, etc. but the thing is that the general public seem to be obsessed by it over the past 10 years.
Today is by 43rd birthday. As I played with my 9 year old son, I thought about what my life was like when I was his age. The first thing that struck me was that (were it not for the rain here in London), he'd be out playing in the streets with his mates, not in some kind of house arrest situation where he has to have at least one parent with him at all times when he leaves the house.
It's fucking sad. And it makes me angry that politicians pander to irrelevant crap like child porn and paedophiles. Yes, paedophiles exist, and so does child porn, but the NUMBER of paedophiles hasn't increased, has it? If it has, nobody's saying why. And even if it has, then the effect of 0.00001% of the population having a predilection for children is frankly irrelevant compared to dangers such as traffic accidents, non-sexual abuse, violence and murder, which - incidentally - hasn't increased either!
What the hell is going on???
"And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
"I'm partial to a bit of loli myself"
-- Adolf Hitler
I googled it and it looks legit... here is a more specific attribution:
Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler, Publ. Houghton Miflin, 1943, Page 403
Very insightful quote... thanks to OP for bringing it up.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Things like these highlight some of the benefits of the German legislative system. Schavan would've been the better choice for the office of president and she'd've probably said 'Have enough information and my verdict is: Forget it' but never the less I'm positively suprised about this.
Köhler wouldn't have been my President but he has shown balls at other occasions and he has a very polite, neatly shrouded and delicate way of basically saying 'Go fuck yourself' to his party members without publicly hurting any feelings, as soon as day-to-day politics start screwing around again in Germany. He's like a gutter-grid keeping the biggest chunks of crap of the german supreme courts back. Which allready has a hard time keeping up with voiding all the BS Berlin has been coming up with lately.
Having a chancelor (currently Angela Merkel) for every-day politics and a President as mostly symbolic head-of-state does have its benefits, as it gives the President tthe obligation to use his power to prevent long-term-effects of election-term-based decisions and lobby/decoy/special-interest laws. And keeps him out of the regular decision making which gives him and his actions the required authority and weight.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Cute, but with many eyes all fakequotes are shallow:
http://sydwalker.info/blog/2008/12/08/having-fun-falsifying-history/
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Just to clarify, as I'm sure some people will wonder why Hitler wrote a book during the war:
Mein Kampf was published in 1925, eight years before Hitler rose to power in Germany.
I agree with your concerns about children's liberty being restricted in the name of "protecting" them. I also agree with your belief that there are some serious issues which are often ignored by the majority; the hysteria over paedophilia allows significant risks to children to remain undetected or trivialised.
"the effect of 0.00001% of the population having a predilection for children is frankly irrelevant compared to dangers such as traffic accidents, non-sexual abuse, violence and murder"
Actually, the percentage of people who are attracted to children is much higher than that, even if the men who like sexually mature 15 year old girls are not included in the statistics. Despite the widespread occurrence of paedophilia within the general population, most paedophiles refrain from abusing children for several reasons:
I'm not just making assumptions based on the fact that I live responsibly with a paedophilic orientation. I know many other paedophiles who are also responsible people.
I have posted this information previously, but it remains relevant:
From Hall, et al -
From the British Journal of Social Work -
From Is Pedophilia a Mental Disorder? -
"To the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free" ~ Nineteen Eighty-Four
The law states that the government manages a secret list which ISPs have to implement (without looking at it... don't ask me how this is supposed to work but hey, it's a law concerning the internet, thus not necessarily feasible) which does not block anything outright but rather displays a big STOP page, telling the user that he is about to look at a "forbidden" page and asking him whether he really wants to go there.
Or, as a German comedian put it, it's not a "no trespassing" sign. It's a stop sign. And people will do what they do when encountering a stop sign. They will stop, look that nobody is coming, and keep driving.
The law came under fire from freedom of speech proponents and anti-child abuse groups alike, the former for the obvious reasons, the latter for the similarly obvious reason that it doesn't change jack. All it does is that you don't see the crime anymore, it still happens and it still is a problem.
It's akin to the various pics that sprung up soon after this idea passed, like this one. Here we see the solution applied to homelessness.
And yes, it's much like a 3 year old closing his eyes and thinking "I can't see it so it ain't there".
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You know it could have been "free speech zones" at DEMOCRAT gatherings too:
http://camelsnose.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/what-a-denver-democratic-convention-free-speech-zone-looks-like/
Did you see this word in the post you are referring to - Republicrat???
I'm thinking the GP was referring to both (very similar) parties.
[UID-HeinzIntel]
denken Sie an die Kinder!
Bow-ties are cool.
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200601.txt
I can't find it. Even presuming a different translation, I'm not seeing anything close to GP's quote.
"I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
That's not an accurate quote. The second part is actually by a rabbi, and presumably isn't an endorsement of such a tactic.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people." --Adolf Hitler
"As long as government is perceived as working for the benefit of children, the people happily will endure almost any curtailment of liberty." --Rabbi Daniel Lapin
Source: http://www.restoreliberty.com/ch5children.htm
Property is theft.
It actually is a different translation. A worse one, IMHO. But the GP's quote is fake. The real one is about eugenics, not censorship. Here it is:
entropy happens
Actually he mixed two quotes, one by Hitler and the other by a Rabbi of all people. The first part "The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people." is Hitler and the second part "As long as government is perceived as working for the benefit of children, the people happily will endure almost any curtailment of liberty." Is by Rabbi Daniel Lapin.
Here is my source with the relevant quotes at the top of the page. Scary to think that even back then the "think of the children" liberty snatch was in play. Scary shit.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I googled it and it looks legit... here is a more specific attribution:
Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler, Publ. Houghton Miflin, 1943, Page 403
No, only the first sentence is legit. The rest is from a fictional letter from Hitler by Rabbi Daniel Lapin. He quotes (in "quotes") that first sentence with a footnote with exactly the attribution you gave - the rest he makes up.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
That was just the "justification" for it. The law really kills free speech in a most horrific way. In fact, pretty much every German freaked out over this and protested (unlike when similar things happened/happens in the US/Canada). It's nice that at least one politician is trying to get rid of it.