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New Aliens Vs. Predator Game Doesn't Make It Past AU Ratings Board

An anonymous reader writes "Australia refused to give Rebellion's new Aliens Vs. Predator game a rating, effectively banning it in the country. Rebellion says it won't be submitting an edited version for another round of classifications, however. (As Valve did with Left 4 Dead 2.) They said, 'We will not be releasing a sanitized or cut down version for territories where adults are not considered by their governments to be able to make their own entertainment choices.'"

38 of 277 comments (clear)

  1. Good to see game developers put their foot down by He+Who+Has+No+Name · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Refusal to put up with bullshit like Australia and Germany's ratings boards is the only way to bring them down. Tolerance for censorship only breeds familiarity and further tolerance.

    1. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by DiSKiLLeR · · Score: 3, Informative

      As an aussie.... /agreed!

      And anyway, its not gonna stop jack shit. Everyone will just buy the game off eBay.

      --
      You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
    2. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by lwoggardner · · Score: 4, Informative

      What are people supposed to do? No politician is going to get elected on the platform of allowing an R18+ category or doing away with censorship.

      I suspect these guys hope you are wrong about that.

    3. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Australian isn't the US, we have a different culture and people in general are quite happy for the government to "protect" us from certain things.

      Unfortunately that attitude isn't unique to your country and there are plenty of people here in the states that would willingly surrender their freedom and liberty in exchange for "protection" from various things.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by mjwx · · Score: 4, Interesting
      First off, this was hardly a surprise.

      Refusal to put up with bullshit like Australia and Germany's ratings boards is the only way to bring them down. Tolerance for censorship only breeds familiarity and further tolerance.

      Unfortunately the publishers boycotting nations will do nothing. It's the citizens that need to act. That being said, I agree with the publishers stance.

      In case you don't know, the R18+ rating for video games in Australia is being held up by 1 man, South Australian Attorney General Michael Atkinson. There are already several campaigns underway to remove Mr Atkinson from his seat of Croydon. Video games are the only media in Australia that do not use the R18+ rating so the highest rating a game can get is M15 which is why L4D and AVP were rejected (extreme graphic violence), if they had of been books or movies they would have got the R18 rating and been released under our classification guidelines, because there is M15 is the highest rating our classification board can give to a video game they have no choice but to follow their mandate and give an RC rating to the game. It's the law that must be changed, that means changing Atkinson.

      Our Parallel import laws are another thing, this way we can get around these stupid RC classifications as we can order games from the US, UK or Asia (Hong Kong being quite popular) so for PC gamers this isn't so much of an issue, for console gamers you still have to contend with the region locks.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    5. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "How do you refuse when they are backed with the full force of law?"

      You do something illegal. Very simple. Armed rebellion IS a legitimate choice.

      I'm surprised to hear all of this "I want to change the government because it is poor and doesn't represent my interests.... but I won't do anything illegal". FUCKING PICK ONE. Either put up with the bullshit, or do something about it, don't sit there and bitch like a whiney fuck.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    6. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Armed rebellion IS a legitimate choice.

      Not in Australia. They willingly surrendered most of their firearms quite some time ago as I understand it.

      Either put up with the bullshit, or do something about it, don't sit there and bitch like a whiney fuck.

      Hey, I'm with you. Now how do you suggest we convince the vast majority of the populace that eats this shit up hook, line and sinker?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    7. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by mjwx · · Score: 2

      It sure as hell will have an impact when the government realizes that they've lost all their tax revenue from video games because 80% of them aren't being sold there any more.

      Not big enough to get noticed. Parallel importing was permitted as the tax revenue on movies, music and games sales wasn't worth protecting, it's just not big enough as most of our taxes are on energy (fuels), alcohol, tobacco and primary exports. This is why I can import games, movies and electronics for half the price of buying them locally but not Vodka which sells for 21 SGD a litre in the Singapore Airport but costs A$50 a litre from a store in Perth (1 AUD is about 1.2 SGD at the moment).

      However if Atkinson gets voted out, they'll put someone in there who will tow the line on populist policies (which means R18 rating) as Kevin Rudd, the current Prime Minister is running a very populist government.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    8. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Contrary to the US, most every other civilised country in the world recognises that the average citizen does NOT have some God given right to own a rocket launcher!

      Hyperbole. No civilian in the US owns a "rocket launcher", unless you are referring to one of these.

      Unfortunately the American gun culture is now being exported (along with rap and like shit) and we're starting to pay the price with a rise in handgun crime.

      Yes, it's all our fault. Your criminals were honest hard working folk until they caught a glimpse of the American gun culture, upon which they become violent murderers.

      The average American is a sheep being led to the slaughter so some Ruger guy can afford another corporate jet, and the best part is, they have you loving it!

      Ruger isn't that big of a company. I actually met their CEO once upon a time. Guess what? He was flying commercial.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    9. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Rennt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Armed rebellion IS a legitimate choice

      Bullshit. The best one man can do to "rebel" is to assassinate an elected leader. Thus derailing the whole democratic process. If you could convince a group of men to resist they become terrorists. If you could convince a whole county or state to resist THEN you might have a legitimate contention, but the fact of the matter is the idea of armed rebellion is quaint and irrelevant today.

      But all that aside, do you REALLY believe violence is an appropriate response to the banning of a video game? And what about when you realize the banning is largely symbolic because the game can easily be ordered online? Put down your guns and gain some perspective you psycho!

    10. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by asdf7890 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly. Even if retooling a bit to make it past the censors would (after accounting for the cost of having an extra version to support if there are problems that need patching and such) increase the profit a bit, the difference is probably much smaller than that gained from free advertising garnered from "standing up to the censors". Also "banned in X countries!" will increase sales to certain demographics, and coincidentally some of these are demographics that an AvP game is likely targeted at.

    11. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by marcansoft · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just wait until some console maker decides that Australia needs to be a separate region-locking region.

    12. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Informative

      IIRC the Xbox enforces DVD region codes.
      Afaict every console that can play DVDs enforces DVD region codes for them. This does not imply that they use the DVD region coding system for games.

      I've just done some googling and it seems the xbox and xbox 360 use the same PAL/NTSC/NTSC-J region system that most other consoles use.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    13. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by SilentSandman · · Score: 2, Informative

      These guys also...

    14. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I honestly don't know how much money the guy makes. I met him in a terminal at JFK. Saw him wearing a Ruger shirt and asked him where he got it -- he told me he worked for them. Asked him what his role was and he said he was the CEO. Talked to him for a few minutes about the firearms industry in general and Ruger in particular. He seemed pretty down to earth.

      The GP was either trolling or misinformed. The stereotype of the big scary "gun industry" is just that. Most of the American gun companies aren't all that big. Ruger has a market cap of 202 million. Smith & Wesson has a market cap of 264 million. That's peanuts compared to many publicly traded companies.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    15. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The truly sad thing is that all of the attorney generals of each state of australia agreed in principle to having an r rating on video games (R being 18+ in Au, much like other nations), and there was a sole dissenting voice (Michael Atkinson of my home state South Australia - truly shameful).

      One man has held up the classification of R18+ games in this country. If the people of SA vote out the rann govt, a classification is more likely. I would never say certain, as the alternative party are rather conservative, however just about everyone with half a brain agrees that its best to have an 18+ classification to keep the games out of the kids hands (guffaw, who am I kidding - they'll just go on bittorrent and download the razor1911 version, crack and everything...)

      Kids smarter than politicians. Yeah, nothing new there...

      -Dohmar

    16. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      there are plenty of people here in the states that would willingly surrender their freedom and liberty in exchange for "protection" from various things.

      However, this "willingness to give up freedoms for safety" only shows itself statistically when talking about terrorism. Harris Interactive did a poll a few days after 9/11 asking the question and by 80%, Americans were willing to lose some freedoms. A second poll in 2007, halfway through the second GWBush administration, showed similar results.

      It's interesting that of all the dangers in the world, the one that turns Americans into quivering masses of fear is something that is so statistically insignificant as to be nearly nonexistent. We hear conservative members of congress, big tough guys who like to swagger and threaten, worry about the 200 Gitmo detainees as if they were James Bond supervillians who could destroy American with their minds. Khalid what's-his-name, the supposed "9/11 mastermind" is actually so dangerous, they say, that he can't even be allowed to be tried in a court of law. Now that's fear.

      Seriously, if you listen randomly to a segment of any US "conservative" media, one of the most common expressions you'll hear is "I'm afraid..." or "I fear...".

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    17. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We aren't that fearfull of our fellow countrymen

      Then why do you feel the need to disarm them?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    18. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Cimexus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes this is a good point and I think people outside Australia need to understand this...

      Most people in Australia, the Federal Government, and all the State and Territory Governments, support the introduction of an R18+ rating for games (much as we obviously already have for movies).

      All, of course, except one jurisdiction - South Australia, and specifically its Attorney-General.

      There isn't really a widespread opposition in Government against such a rating. It truly is the result of one man in this case ... unfortunately the law requires all States to agree in this case, so until Michael Atkinson gets replaced, this is how it is.

      Having said that, it doesn't really affect much. People just mail-order the game from an overseas retailer anyway if they really want to play it (or they pirate it). The lack of the rating doesn't mean you can't play it. It just means people can't legally ~sell~ it.

    19. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by selven · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They aren't acting on behalf of a sovereign state, so they can't be war criminals. They're common criminals. It doesn't matter how heinous their crime is, everyone deserves access to the civilian justice system. Someone who murders his wife deserves access to the civilian justice system, someone who murders 20 college students deserves access to the civilian justice system, and someone who assists in the murder of 3000 people deserves access to the civilian justice system. It's called rule of law, you can't circumvent it just because you fell like it.

    20. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think it matters how dangerous he is. Enemy combatants whose only connection to our country is the desire to destroy it are not entitled to access to our civilian justice system. It's patently absurd in my mind to treat these people as common criminals.

      Indeed. Why, if declaring someone "enemy combatant" wouldn't put them outside the normal legal system, and able to be hold prisoner for as long as his captors desired, then how would the powerful get rid of their enemies? Why, the very thought that "everyone is equal before law" might lead someo to question the divine right of the king and the status of the aristocracy!

      Kudos for Khalid, thought; he might be a freedom-hating murdering bastard, but not many people can have freedom die a little bit just by having their name mentioned on an Internet forum.

      They are war criminals and deserve to be treated accordingly.

      Very well, then bring them before a court. You did know that war criminals get sentenced or released on those, didn't you?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    21. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Rakishi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The explaination is simple. We aren't that fearfull of our fellow countrymen, our prime minister can go for a jog in the morning without a bullet proof vest and a small army, most of us would like it to stay that way.

      Really? Is that why people in Australia are more afraid of walking in the dark and burglaries than those in the US?
      http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_per_of_saf_wal_in_dar-crime-perception-safety-walking-dark
      http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_per_of_saf_bur-crime-perception-of-safety-burglary

      Seems to me like you're very much afraid of your fellow countrymen. Then again given the lovely rape rate you guys have and the stunning burglary rate I'm not surprised.

    22. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Nadaka · · Score: 2, Insightful

      nukes are not a valid tool for removing rebellious citizens on your own soil.

    23. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you have blood on your hands you are doing it wrong.

      Guns let you have some standoff distance so you don't get splatter.

    24. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Planesdragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And before you ask..... I've owned and used firearms since I was about 8, still do. The difference is here you don't mention them in polite society.

      Americans believe that an armed populace is a necessary check on a tyrannical government or foreign conquest. It goes right along with the reason that our soldiers swear to uphold the constitution, and not our rulers or the ruler's laws.

      I'll go so far as to claim that if your country cannot trust its citizenry with effective weapons of rebellion, then you are not a civilized country. (Not that presence of weapons is by any means proof of civilization... but their absence is an indicator of civilization's lack.)

    25. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "How do you refuse when they are backed with the full force of law?"

      You do something illegal. Very simple. Armed rebellion IS a legitimate choice.

      I'm surprised to hear all of this "I want to change the government because it is poor and doesn't represent my interests.... but I won't do anything illegal". FUCKING PICK ONE. Either put up with the bullshit, or do something about it, don't sit there and bitch like a whiney fuck.

      Bah, you americans.

      What is required is an informed populace that gives a damn. Either people give a shit, and in that case they can use legal means to oust the jackasses, or they don't and in that case what good are guns gonna do them?

      The reason people bitch on /. instead of actually being able to change anything is because as people who care about this particular issue we're in the minority. So are you suggesting that we pick up guns and force our values on the rest of our countries? Maybe start a little dictatorship of enlightened slashdotians while we're at it?

      Guns come into play once a government refuses to leave even though they've been replaced through elections, or elections are getting rigged. And at that point the army gets involved on one side or the other anyway, and either things are over real quick (military sides with the populace) or you're looking at a drawn out civil war(military supports the jackasses).

      But do keep waving that awesome 2nd amendment in our faces. Fat lot of good that AK is gonna do you in the long run.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    26. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by shut_up_man · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well said. As a possible alternative to encouraging Mr Atkinson to move on, the Queensland Government is considering allowing "refused classification" games to be considered as R18+ within that state. There is a e-petition available here: http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/EPetitions_qld/CurrentEPetition.aspx?PetNum=1346&lIndex=-1

      The associated wordage is:

      Queensland residents draws to the attention of the House that the Classification of Computer Games and Images Act 1995 is currently out of step with the wishes of the electorate. Your petitioners, therefore, request the House that it be amended to permit computer games to receive the R18+ classification when they have been refused classification under the Commonwealth Act.

      This might be a shorter term solution if they could make it work - head up to Qld for a weekend of sunshine and some grownup videogame purchases. Kinda like Canberra and porn...

    27. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's because we are a civilized nation - we don't believe we are the only people in the world who deserve these rights, we believe everyboy does. That's why we tend to get sucked into fights to preserve democracy and such, though our track record lately is only so-so.

      So yeah it sucks that he gets to enjoy our freedoms, but it's the right thing to do.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    28. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by mjwx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Let me start off by saying I don't know jack about how your system works but it sounds like the problem is with your system.

      Not really, the system requires a unanimous vote because each Attorney General represents one of Australia's states. Requiring a unanimous vote prevents 4 out of the 7 deciding things for everyone, it also assures that extremist ratings cannot be entered in as easily nor can existing ratings be removed at the drop of a hat. It may only take one AG to stop R18 for games being introduced but the flip side of this is it will only take one AG to prevent R18 for movies being taken away. The idea behind a unanimous vote is to get a ratings system that everyone agrees with via negotiation rather then the slim majority forcing its views.

      The system is not broken, one cog in the system is refusing to turn and that cog is Mr Atkinson. Replacing the entire system for one broken part seems a bit backwards to me.

      Besides this the parliament and state parliaments can overturn the ratings board and permit RC games to be sold as R18 as Queensland is proposing (X rated porn is only sold in one Australian state for example). I think if push comes to shove they'll get rid of Atkinson before the ratings board becomes redundant.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    29. Re:Good to see game developers put their foot down by L0rdJedi · · Score: 2, Funny

      We may believe everybody deserves these rights, but we don't normally go around trying to enforce our rights onto every country. Our track record lately, as in the past 10 years, is actually still pretty good.

      Look back at our nation's history. We have not been in the habit of "spreading democracy" throughout the world. What we have been in the habit of doing is pushing communism back and containing it, which we sometimes failed miserably at doing. We've also been in the habit of pressuring communist countries to free their citizens. With enough pressure, they eventually fall (see Russia and East Germany for two good examples).

      Until recently, no war criminal was tried in a civilian court. It is what military tribunals are for. If you are captured on the battlefield, military tribunals are suppose to be used, not civilian courts. Civilian courts have a much higher burden of proof than military tribunals. All it's going to take is a little reasonable doubt and KSM will either walk free or have a hung jury. That's not justice, it's insanity.

      This has set a precedent. If bin Laden is captured tomorrow, there is now a chance that he will have to be read Miranda rights and then tried in a civilian court. So while we keep telling the world that we're going to try him in court because "it's the right thing to do" we're also telling the world "he'll likely be found guilty and even if he's not, we won't let him go". What kind of justice is that? If we've already decided that he can't be set free and that he'll be convicted, that's just hypocrisy. The trial is a big show and it's a show we don't need.

  2. Apparently there's an I in democracy by ghmh · · Score: 5, Informative

    Quick explanation: Pretty much most of Australia would be happy to have an 'R' rating for computer games.

    This guy (Michael Atkinson), however would not. He has the power to veto it and continues to do so.

    Due to his geographical location, there's bugger all the majority of Australia can do about it from a voting perspective.

    I don't blame game publishers for not releasing stuff here. Effectively we're all just waiting for 'Nanny' Atkinson to become senile and finally leave his post as South Australia's attorney general.

    The thing that really worries me is how come they have this veto power for things like this in the first place....

    1. Re:Apparently there's an I in democracy by bmgoau · · Score: 3, Informative

      The parent is correct. As a fellow Australian I am just waiting for this guy to move on.

      Someone wrote to him a couple of times before getting an extensive reply attempting to justify his position, consider reading it here [PDF]

      http://bunnitude.com/misc/files/R18-Michael%20Atkinson.pdf

      Quotes
      "I think you will find this issue has little traction with my constituents who are more concerned with real life issues than home entertainment in imaginary worlds"
      "I am concerned about the impact of this extreme content on children"
      "It is true this restricts liberty, however I am prepared to accept this infringement"

      It's basically a long winded version of "will someone please think of the children!"

  3. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 3, Informative

    When Australians decide to start acting like adults they can do something about their government.

    Whatever do you mean?

    Do you mean that this is something the Australian public wants? That nothing is being done?

    Or perhaps you are one of those nuts that believes that if we are not violent nothing will be done. I'd like to remind you that all those guns did not stop an extremely invasive surveillance law being put into place by the previous US government.

    Because you are an ignorant troll, you do not actually know what is happening. Right now the R18 rating is being held up by one man, the South Australian Attorney General Michael Atkinson. All the other state Attorney Generals voted yes on R18 for games. Australian law in this case requires a complete consensus, not a majority (this prevents the State AG's from removing or changing existing classifications as well). There are already campaigns to remove Michael Atkinson from his seat of Croydon in the 2010 elections such as the Gamers4Croydon organisation.

    Please mod the parent troll, if possible ignorant as well.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  4. Re:As an Australian Resident,,, by icsx · · Score: 3, Informative

    You are now mixing kids with adults and this game is not made for kids, it's for adults so your argument goes out of the window right now. Besides, how are the games as you listed wrong? I had tons of fun playing DOOM and Mortal Kombat. Not kids games, but i did play them as a kid, so did you propably but that doesn't mean that every violent game should be banned.

    I love violent games. That doesn't mean that i go postal and kill everyone for real. It's entertaining to have some alien go up on a human, smack brains on the wall and go for next victim. It's fun. It's not real. It's a GAME.

    Sure, i wouldn't want my kids to see that stuff, when they are kids but there are age ratings for a games for a reason. Why the hell Australia doesn't allow some games for anyone, not even over 18 years old?

    Why some games are completely banned? Who are they protecting?

  5. Re:As an Australian Resident,,, by Adambomb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yeah, because places like Canada and Norway, and most other countries where these games are also legally purchased are having those problems as well.

    Oh. Wait.

    I've heard of people making the mistake of assuming correlation to mean a possible causal link, but this doesn't even correlate in most countries that have no problem allowing these games. Your reasoning is the same as Homer wanting Lisa's tiger repelling rock.

    The problems you describe have to do with much larger underlying problems than anything video games of any sort bring to the table.

    --
    Ice Cream has no bones.
  6. If I worked on AvP, I'd be partying over this. by zullnero · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If a ratings board bans their game, even if it's a derivative piece of movie-spawned crap, it's pure gold for marketing. There's no way that the Australian government is going to block kids from getting the game...they will find a way one way or the other. But they're definitely doing yeoman's work in promoting the game everywhere by giving it a big "bad" rating. All the ratings system does is provide a free benchmark for a particular genre to strive for because they know that's what will turn heads and sell their product.

    I know that if I were representing the company for this product, I'd be scheduling a big party to celebrate the rating and ban, not trying to make a political/free speech point out of it. The ratings system is an amazing helping hand to this particular venue.

  7. Re:As an Australian Resident,,, by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 4, Funny

    Jack Thompson, you've moved to slashdot. Your so called "public safety measure" is really censorship.
    Normally I'd tell you to get the hell out of my country but, well, you already did. So, good job. I commend you. Most people who live in the US throw away their freedom and ruin it for the rest of us. You actually did the proper thing and moved to a country where you don't have that freedom in the first place.

    Thank you, really, thank you.

    --
    -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
  8. Re:As an Australian Resident,,, by Obyron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any time people pull this shit, kindly point out to them that since 1993, violent crime in all civilized nations has been on the decline, except in places like Sweden and Switzerland where it has stayed roughly the same, because it was never very high to begin with. This encompasses the era of pretty much all mass market video games. (For reference, Super Nintendo came out in 1992) Australia is actually an exception to this. I'm not saying that's significant, just that it's weird given the story.

    An entire generation has grown up playing Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct, Doom, Quake, Postal, Carmageddon, Grand Theft Auto Cop Killer Simulator Edition, etc., and violent crime has gone down. The homicide rate in the US is the lowest it's been since 1965, when there were 100,000,000 fewer people.

    --
    --Obyron