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Lotus Teases With a Fuel-Agnostic Two-Stroke Engine

JohnnyBGod writes "Lotus claim to have invented a new, more efficient engine design. The two-stroke, flex-fuel engine can achieve, according to the surprisingly technical press release, 'approximately 10% better [fuel consumption] than current spray-guided direct injection, spark ignition engines.' The engine has a sliding puck arrangement to control its compression ratio, and has direct injection and a wet sump, to eliminate fuel leakage to the exhaust and the need to mix oil with the fuel, two common problems with two-stroke engines. Lotus engineering have released a video explaining the engine's operation."

269 comments

  1. low power consumption? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's the year of Lotus on the desktop!

    1. Re:low power consumption? by 3.5+stripes · · Score: 1

      Lotus do make some small two seaters, but I don't think I can fit one on my desk.

      --


      He tried to kill me with a forklift!
    2. Re:low power consumption? by maroberts · · Score: 1

      Lotus do make some small two seaters, but I don't think I can fit one on my desk.

      Anyone whose desk is too small for a Lotus needs a bigger desk!

      --

      Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
      Karma: Chameleon

    3. Re:low power consumption? by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      Wasn't that back in the early to mid 90s?

    4. Re:low power consumption? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone whose desk is too small for a Lotus needs a bigger desk!

      I worked at a company where the boss tried to put Lotus on the desktop.

      I quit, and at my new job, my desk is now bigger than his.

  2. Re:It's so quick by _merlin · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    You forgot to use a car analogy!

  3. Internal combustion efficiency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    10%? So that's what? 22% instead of 20%? Whoope!

    1. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by Basje · · Score: 1

      Yup. But it means the engine delivers roughly 10% more power or 10% less fuel consumption than a comparable "normal" engine. So it's significant.

      --
      the pun is mightier than the sword
    2. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by Clover_Kicker · · Score: 1

      Multiply that small number by the insanely huge number of gallons of gasoline consumed.

    3. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      seriously, with the amount of petroleum (or equivalent hydrocarbon) fuel used in this world, a 2% improvement in a system that's been tweaked and optimized during one of the most productive centuries for mechanical engineering is no small feat.

      According to http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip_gasoline.html#demand

      The US alone uses about 9 million barrels of gasoline each day, or 3.3 billion (US) per year. So if everyone got 2% better, that's a 65M barrel a year equivalent reduction in usage. Unless you come up with the next form of free energy, this sort of incremental improvement is about all we have going for us.

      Of course, I seem to recall that a similar level of improvement can be achieved just by making sure your tires are balanced and at the proper pressure. It's winter now, so with colder temps everyone needs to re-check the static pressure in your tires!

    4. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The letter M means 1000 units when used with oil. So 65M would be 65,000. I am assuming you mean million. So the correct way to write this would be 65MM barrel.

    5. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by Mprx · · Score: 1

      This is "News for Nerds", not "News for Oil Traders". We use SI units here.

    6. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by JohnnyBGod · · Score: 1

      Actually, I wonder what's the efficiency of a car engine in winter, when the heat is also used to heat the passenger cabin.

    7. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      I already posted in this thread, so I can't mod this informative... But yes, it is true that for some reason the oil industry uses accounting notation, not scientific notation and thus M is thousand not million (M from roman numerals as opposed to short for Mega). So M is thousand, MM is million, and (really stupid) B is billion.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    8. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by Painted · · Score: 1

      So in 2005, when they introduced the Daylight Saving Time changes, they did so to save approximately 15-20,000 barrels of oil a year (if I recall correctly). This engine, if made mandatory, would save around 30 times as much? Well get legislating, American Politicos!

      --
      http://marsandmore.com - Posters of space, spacecraft, and astronomy.
    9. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

      The best internal combustion engine is about 30% efficient. 60% of the heat energy produced heads out the tail pip or is radiated into the air in cooling the engine. The amount of heat drawn off the coolant loop to heat the car ( forced air heating ) is negligible.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    10. Re:Internal combustion efficiency by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      When you come up with a cost effective way to replace all of the automobiles in use with something dramatically more efficient, you let us know.

      Until then, we have to be satisfied with the incremental improvements to the designs that are actually in production. We don't live in an ideal world, and there are currently no feasible plans for replacing all of the cars in use with electric vehicles (and all of the coal power plants that charge them with renewable energy sources).

      Further, supposedly this engine design can accept a wide number of fuels. That might allow the Lotus Omnivore engine you buy in 2015 support some new biofuel that is invented in 2021. As a consumer, it also lets you switch fuels based on pricing - use propane when it's cheapest per mile traveled and diesel when diesel is cheapest per mile traveled and gasoline when gasoline is cheapest per mile traveled.

      Now whether this concept makes mass production, I have no idea.

  4. What took it all so long?? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ford built a Fiesta with a two-stroke engine that achieved 1.4l/100km (that’s 168 mpg!) in 1996! Not a drawing. Not a experimental model. No, a real driving prototype car. Looked just like a normal Fiesta.

    I wonder why it took until now, for something that’s still worse to come out.
    If I were the Ford engineer, I would be angry as hell.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:What took it all so long?? by _merlin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So where is this magical Ford engine at now? A one-off prototype car is no better than a single experimental engine.

    2. Re:What took it all so long?? by NoPantsJim · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, but keep in mind, it still looked like a Ford Fiesta.

    3. Re:What took it all so long?? by fruey · · Score: 3, Informative

      Various theories hint at the interests of the oil lobby to continue four-stroke dominance (just look at the low mpg of most american manufacturers in general) and perceived customer comfort being the most widely used trump. High fuel efficiency does not usually provide sporty acceleration, low engine noise, and high torque at low revs.

      That being said, no doubt many consumers don't care as much about that as the marketing departments of the automotive industry. In reality, noisy diesels have sold well in Europe (thanks in part to diesel fuel subsidies) and customers have bought poor performing, smaller cars for everyday use. They just don't make big margins on cars that sell for less than €8000 new. So once again striking a balance between shareholder interest (increasing profits) and global economic / ecological interest (decreasing emissions and oil reliance both by better fuel efficiency and better combustion of cleaner, more varied fuel) is an impossible mission.

      Until oil prices go up, don't expect any good technology to prevail. The four stroke petrol engine will die, but not before oil costs increase.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    4. Re:What took it all so long?? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Purely out of morbid curiosity, what was the acceleration like? The last fiesta I had you needed to boot the damn thing to get to motorway speed before you ran out of slip road to merge into the motorway traffic - and that was a vanilla 4-stroke petrol engine (albeit the 1.25l model)

    5. Re:What took it all so long?? by jamesh · · Score: 1

      Possibly it had problems meeting emissions standards? That's just a guess though. Two stroke engines aren't typically as clean as four stroke engines, although I don't know what technical marvels they implemented to get 168mpg.

      That said, if it's burning 10% of the fuel of an SUV it can't have been that bad...

    6. Re:What took it all so long?? by TheEvilOverlord · · Score: 1

      I wonder why it took until now, for something that’s still worse to come out.

      Worse in what aspect? While that is an impressive mpg for any car, the lotus engine has addressed several specific deficiencies with traditional 2-stroke engines, principally the requirement to mix oil with the fuel to lubricate the engine. This has a significant impact on the emissions. It can also run on a variety of fuels. This is one heck of an achievement

      oh and

      Ford built a Fiesta with a two-stroke engine that achieved 1.4l/100km (that’s 168 mpg!) in 1996!

      [citation needed]

    7. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Diesel fuel subsidies in Europe!

      Wow, that's impressively wrong, almost a slashdot record.

    8. Re:What took it all so long?? by rcs1000 · · Score: 1

      I've googled and can't find this car.

      Source please?

      --
      --- My dad's political betting
    9. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not to mention the fact that modern diesels are most definitely not "noisy". Americans in general are painfully ignorant of modern diesel technology, which is a shame.

      Toyota has a 2.2 turbo diesel engine so smooth that they are able to balance an upright coin on the engine cover with the engine running at idle, without knocking the coin over. Impressive.

    10. Re:What took it all so long?? by Raptoer · · Score: 1

      If I had to take a guess it would be because the ford used the same design as previous 2 stoke engines, just in a different form factor to fit into a fiesta. Two stroke engines usually suffer from having to burn their oil at the same time as their fuel and letting fuel leak out the exhaust (since the intake and exhaust from the chamber happen at the same time).

    11. Re:What took it all so long?? by dakameleon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Various theories hint at the interests of the oil lobby to continue four-stroke dominance (just look at the low mpg of most american manufacturers in general) and perceived customer comfort being the most widely used trump. High fuel efficiency does not usually provide sporty acceleration, low engine noise, and high torque at low revs.

      Uh... explain then why European & Japanese manufacturers can make high mpg with the same four-stroke engine technology? Oil lobby aside, the technology has more efficiency possible.

      And irrespective of that, two-stroke doesn't necessarily mean less fuel consumption - and is far more likely to mean higher lubrication oil consumption.

      In reality, noisy diesels have sold well in Europe (thanks in part to diesel fuel subsidies)

      Where on earth did you get the idea that Europe subsidises diesel?

      and customers have bought poor performing, smaller cars for everyday use.

      That's more likely to be a pattern of behaviour - distances between cities and key locations are smaller due to higher density, and roads are narrower in Europe, so having a massive car is more likely to be an inconvenience.

      --
      Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
    12. Re:What took it all so long?? by DarkOx · · Score: 4, Informative

      Don't forget one of the big 2-stroke killers in the USA was the as usual the EPA. Because they set at the emissions requirements as ratios; rather than say an absolute value per horsepower hour. A 2 stroke looks dirty compared to a four stroke if you compare the various amounts of controlled gases in a sample but they are often allot better in absolute terms; because they can do more work per unit of displacement and revolution.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    13. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any references? Light googling reveals nothing, just 1.2 l. / 3 cylinder Diesel prototypes. This is NOT the same as 1.2 l/100 Km.
      But look up for the volkswagen "1L": it took light (and expensive) materials and a narrow aerodynamic design (just two people) to get 1 l / 100 Km. I think that your 1.2 l in a Fiesta shape and weight highly dubious.

      References:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car (2002 prototype)
      http://www.volkswagen.com/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/en2/unternehmen/mobility_and_sustainability0/technik___innovation/Forschung/1_Liter_Auto.html
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY6K-1NSRWs (new prototype)

    14. Re:What took it all so long?? by fruey · · Score: 1

      Indirect subsidies of course, based on the fact that levels of taxation vary according to fuel type.

      Diesel costs more per gallon in the UK compared to unleaded, but less per gallon in France. However you explain it, it's a subsidy of sorts.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    15. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thanks in part to diesel fuel subsidies

      Oh, you mean lower taxes on diesel fuel?
            For your information, Europe taxes fuels, and final cost at pump is close to 1 euro per liter (about 5.6 USD per gallon).
            So, there are not higher subsidies but lower taxes

    16. Re:What took it all so long?? by fruey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Euro & Japanese manufacturers are less influenced by the US fuel lobby. Explain why petrol costs way less in the US : (the answer is taxation in Europe). The taxation strategy indirectly subsidises (it's not quite a subsidy, of course, but to the end user making one fuel cheaper than the other is akin to subsidy even if the difference is the level of taxation)

      Agree in part with behaviour patterns in Europe, but I've seen roads from Fort Worth & surroundings to Dallas clogged with large vehicles mostly used for a less than 20 mile daily commute...

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    17. Re:What took it all so long?? by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Informative

      Something like 50-60% of new cars sold in Europe for the last few years are diesel. Nobody seems to see a problem with them.

      nb. This figure applies to luxury cars (Mercedes, BMW, etc) as well. The rich people aren't seeing a problem either (in fact diesels are very good for long-haul highway driving).

      Diesel engines would be a far better match than gasoline for American tastes (ie. lots of torque at low revs), I can't imagine why they don't use them.

      --
      No sig today...
    18. Re:What took it all so long?? by rufty_tufty · · Score: 5, Informative

      "In reality, noisy diesels have sold well in Europe "
      Speaking as an Englishman and part time car nut: noisy diesels would sell rubbish,
      My GF's diesel Ford is quieter above 30mph than my petrol Honda, once you get above about 2000rpm when the turbo starts to kick in the diesel has more torque and the difference in noise is impossible to tell, but the extra torque means that you can rev the diesel lower. At idle my petrol Honda is slightly quieter but the idea of noisy/dirty diesels is old.
      Now at peak revs the petrol produces more power and I don't see me putting a diesel engine in my motorbike anytime soon, but for me the competition in none race cars has already been won by the diesel.
      Except of course that the last Monte Carlo 24 hour race was won by a diesel...

      --
      "The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
    19. Re:What took it all so long?? by bazorg · · Score: 1

      Where on earth did you get the idea that Europe subsidises diesel?

      some 60% of the retail price usually consists on oil-products tax and then VAT on top of it. In some countries like Portugal and Spain the retail price for diesel fuel used to be some 25% lower because the oil tax was lower. Then the TDIs of this world became successful enough for people to used them on stuff that is not a lorry or a tractor and the price gap between petrol and diesel was reduced.

    20. Re:What took it all so long?? by weicco · · Score: 1

      For your information, Europe taxes fuels, and final cost at pump is close to 1 euro per liter

      Wow! Where you live? It's 1,309 per liter at the nearest gas station here in Finland and it's about the cheapest there is.

      --
      You don't know what you don't know.
    21. Re:What took it all so long?? by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Diesel costs more per gallon in the UK compared to unleaded, but less per gallon in France. However you explain it, it's a subsidy of sorts.

      The same way paying 92% tax is the government subsidizing you because they could have charged you a 96% tax.

      No wait, that's not what subsidy means.

    22. Re:What took it all so long?? by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      At the moment diesel is about 1p more per mile than petrol per litre in the UK, - £1.09 vs £1.08 for petrol but you get about 25% more miles out of it, so it is still cheaper.

    23. Re:What took it all so long?? by dakameleon · · Score: 1

      Euro & Japanese manufacturers are less influenced by the US fuel lobby.

      My main issue with your argument above is that the oil lobby is somehow colluding with the US auto industry to maintain the primacy of the four-stroke engine, which is simply not true. The oil lobby is more overtly acting to discourage high efficiency standards legislation in concert with the (former) Big 3 because they don't want to put in the extra effort.

      The taxation strategy indirectly subsidises (it's not quite a subsidy, of course, but to the end user making one fuel cheaper than the other is akin to subsidy even if the difference is the level of taxation)

      A subsidy is a reduction below market price; this is a case of a preferential tax rate. I'm being pendantic, but it's a difference in end-user behaviour - Venezuela has a subsidy for political purposes, while European countries encourage certain usage patterns through differential tax schemes.

      Agree in part with behaviour patterns in Europe, but I've seen roads from Fort Worth & surroundings to Dallas clogged with large vehicles mostly used for a less than 20 mile daily commute...

      People tend to buy for worst-case instead of average-case scenarios - just in case they ever take that holiday to Disneyland, they don't want to pack in to a compact. Europeans on the other hand take a train.

      --
      Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
    24. Re:What took it all so long?? by Antity-H · · Score: 1

      Yes that is what it means. A subsidy is not alway a direct gift of money.

      Subsidies can be provided in the form of a tax break which is exactly what happens in the case of French Diesel.

    25. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It took so long because now the engine makers have to worry about emissions instead of just mileage.

    26. Re:What took it all so long?? by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't know what technical marvels they implemented to get 168mpg.

      From my understanding, it'd be set up like the huge ship based two stroke diesels. You utilize a turbocharger and direct injection into the cylinder. That way you're not blowing gas/oil out with the exhaust. You can control precisely how much and when fuel is introduced into the chambers.

      Then you end up with an engine that's almost half the weight for the power. Cooling needs can even be reduced because you can use the air during the flush phase to help cool the engine.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    27. Re:What took it all so long?? by willy_me · · Score: 1

      I remember reading about super efficient fuel injected 2-stroke engines back in 1990 - so the idea has been around for a long time. Implementing it in an efficient and reliable manner must be difficult.

      But just the other week I found a mass produced engine that implements the idea. Have a look at the new 600cc engine from ski-doo. It's a 2-stroke engine that runs on gas - without the oil mixture. Oil is still used, but it is injected directly onto the main crank on an "as needed" basis. Overall oil consumption is dramatically reduced.

    28. Re:What took it all so long?? by IrquiM · · Score: 1

      Oh they are very "noisy" when you drive them without oil!

      --
      This is blinging
    29. Re:What took it all so long?? by sznupi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Cars, choosing them is one of the areas where decisions of people are being extremely influenced by perceptions and urban myths.

      You know your extremely visible purchase will be witnessed by many people, you might want them to look at it in particular (depending on the area) way. Also, since it's a non-trivial expense, you rationalize your choices excessively. All this creates quite complex behaviors.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    30. Re:What took it all so long?? by molecular · · Score: 1

      People tend to buy for worst-case instead of average-case scenarios - just in case they ever take that holiday to Disneyland, they don't want to pack in to a compact. Europeans on the other hand take a train.

      Across the Atlantic?

    31. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      High fuel efficiency does not usually provide sporty acceleration, low engine noise, and high torque at low revs.

      This sounds the wrong way around. If what you hear are the explosions, higher fuel efficiency would produce less noise, right?

      I guess it is time that we run out of oil. The oil price has to be up to push efficiency and other motors/fuels. Taxes on oil may help, some countries already do that.

    32. Re:What took it all so long?? by geekmux · · Score: 3, Funny

      So where is this magical Ford engine at now? A one-off prototype car is no better than a single experimental engine.

      Oh, please, isn't the location obvious? It's sitting in the "high-priority" warehouse, right next to the Ark of the Covenant and the Roswell "balloon debris"...

      We'll get to it, in 30 years, 8 months, 4 depressions, 12 corruptions, and 20 trillion dollars in oil profits from now...

      Until then, YMMV...

    33. Re:What took it all so long?? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Wow! Sign me in! (this Finland of yours) It's slightly cheaper here in Poland, with around three times lower median income.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    34. Re:What took it all so long?? by plastbox · · Score: 3, Interesting

      People tend to buy for worst-case instead of average-case scenarios - just in case they ever take that holiday to Disneyland, they don't want to pack in to a compact. Europeans on the other hand take a train.

      What on earth are you talking about? You can't just make retarded, unsupported statements like that! We Europeans are quite fond of our cars, and have no problem packing a family of four into a typical European/Asian family car for vacation. if you think you need to drive a Hummer or a 2-ton pickup truck to get where you're going, then perhaps you should learn to pack your stuff with some common sense (and perhaps put your all-American family on a diet).

      Yes, that diet comment assumed a very clique image of Americans. I allowed myself this small freedom, as you seem to have no problem making stupid statements and assumptions about us.

    35. Re:What took it all so long?? by way2trivial · · Score: 1

      I found references to 95% of the claim in one search
      http://www.cnet.com.au/ford-fiesta-econetic-limbos-under-4l-100km-339290910.htm

      just the year is wrong.

      --
      every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
    36. Re:What took it all so long?? by wlowe84 · · Score: 1

      We don't use them, because the car companies don't really sale them here. I personally love diesels.

    37. Re:What took it all so long?? by plastbox · · Score: 1

      Really? Here in Norway, where a significant part of the worlds oil products are produced, fuel costs roughly €1.53862 per liter.

    38. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I invite you to Turkey. Since Turkey is neighbor to 3 oil producing countries, produces 5 times more oil than Finland and have substantially lower income than Finland, our gas is just 1.489 €/l.

    39. Re:What took it all so long?? by GeckoAddict · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the fact that modern diesels are most definitely not "noisy". Americans in general are painfully ignorant of modern diesel technology, which is a shame.

      That's because, for the most part, the only diesels we're exposed to are large SUVs and Semi trucks, which are actually quite noisy. Personally, I love the idea of a diesel, provided the cold weather isn't a problem anymore. The US doesn't really have diesel cars so most people (like myself) haven't had a need to research them at all.

    40. Re:What took it all so long?? by plastbox · · Score: 2, Informative

      According to Wikipedia, Diesel has the highest energy density of all the more popular fuels and as anyone who has ever driven a new diesel will know, torque, noise, etc. are non-issues.

      Would we even be having this silly discussion if not for those blasted average Americans? =P

    41. Re:What took it all so long?? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I remember correctly, some of these diesel vehicles cannot be sold here in the US due to emissions laws being more strict for diesel vehicles. This is odd. considering the average 18 wheeler belches visible and foul smelling smoke. Perhaps that is where we Americans get our ideas about these engines from.

      --
      SSC
    42. Re:What took it all so long?? by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      People tend to buy for worst-case instead of average-case scenarios - just in case they ever take that holiday to Disneyland, they don't want to pack in to a compact. Europeans on the other hand take a train.

      Across the Atlantic?

      Beats driving though

    43. Re:What took it all so long?? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      Subsidy: transfer payment, usually made by government to individuals, groups, or institutions, to bring about a redistribution of welfare which could not be achieved through market forces.

      --
      SSC
    44. Re:What took it all so long?? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Various theories hint at the interests of the oil lobby to continue four-stroke dominance (just look at the low mpg of most american manufacturers in general) and perceived customer comfort being the most widely used trump.

      That's not it. I worked in the automotive industry for almost 10 years, and I can tell you that the automotive companies don't give a rat's ass about Big Oil. But you do give the real reason:

      They just don't make big margins on cars that sell for less than €8000 new.

      And that's it right there, at least as far as the Detroit Three are concerned: they have never made money on small, inexpensive cars. Inexpensive cars have always been considered a "loss leader" to introduce younger people with less cash to the brand.

    45. Re:What took it all so long?? by DigitalReverend · · Score: 1

      ....don't see me putting a diesel engine in my motorbike anytime soon

      Too bad, apparently they are fun to ride. Neander 1400 Turbo Diesel Motorcycle Test & Review

      --
      I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
    46. Re:What took it all so long?? by emilper · · Score: 1

      noisy diesels have sold well in Europe (thanks in part to diesel fuel subsidies)

      pray, tell, which Europe are you writing about ? is it Europe nearby Jupiter ? Did NASA discover semi-intelligent life there (intelligent enough not to tax fuels, not intelligent enough to stop from subsidising them) ?

    47. Re:What took it all so long?? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      I have no idea if it's true but I remember reading that diesel sold in the US is "low quality" compared to diesel sold in the EU.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    48. Re:What took it all so long?? by emilper · · Score: 1

      I can't imagine why they don't use them

      the clueless Naciremas did this right: diesel emissions are just awful, compared with gasoline, in terms of combustion byproducts.

    49. Re:What took it all so long?? by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      Actually, higher fuel efficiency does likely translate to more power. But when it translates to more power, it's swapped to smaller engine, underpowered one, and then the fuel consumption is again higher because it's currently going on high loads.

      For example, an old RWD corolla.

      Stock 1.6liter, carburated engine. Producing around 70JIS HP. Sounds like doesn't consume much, yes?
      minimum 8liters per 100km (@80km/h highway), practically mixed city + highway (@100km/h) translates to 12liters per 100km, sometimes you can get as low as 10l/100km.
      RPM limit: 6,000RPM

      Newer, high power, high rev 1.6liter, fuel injected, twin cam engine, from early 90s.
      Same engine has been used as a very tuned up version in Formula Atlantic, and continues to be used in Rally and Drifting.
      Produces 124 to 165JIS HP, depending upon engine variation. No low rpm torque to speak of, especially with the very first versions.
      RPM limit 6,800 to 8,500RPM depending upon version.

      Comparison engine: Latest 16v (circa 91-93), steel exhaust manifold, freeflow air filter, 8k rpm rev limit, produces ~135HP
      Fuel consumption highway 100-120km/h: 6.5-7l/100km
      Mixed fuel consumption average 8l/100km

      As for the oil companies stopping highly efficiently engines: I agree with you 100%. There's so many cool, very high fuel efficiency motors invented, but none makes in the market?

    50. Re:What took it all so long?? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Similar tax breaks apply here in Australia.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    51. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the fuel use is off by a factor three.

    52. Re:What took it all so long?? by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      Why would Europeans cross the Atlantic to travel to Paris?

    53. Re:What took it all so long?? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      No, under the channel to the Disneyland the French pretend they haven't got.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    54. Re:What took it all so long?? by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      Same goes for Wankel engines.
      It's ridiculous that they are measured with the same standards than a completely differently working engine.

      By design, Wankel is way more efficient (all rotating parts, no complete turns in direction). Downside with Wankel is inexistant low rpm torque, which comes from a multitude of factors (ie. lower rotating mass for one)

      In wankel, on 1-cycle you have 3 ignitions, while on 4-stroke you have 1 ignition, and 4-stroke cycle is longer than wankel's ....

    55. Re:What took it all so long?? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      VW, BMW and Benz all sell Diesel passenger cars.

      I've owned both a '86 and a '98. The '98 I drive currently and it's almost to 250k miles with out any major problems.

    56. Re:What took it all so long?? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Uh... explain then why European & Japanese manufacturers can make high mpg with the same four-stroke engine technology? Oil lobby aside, the technology has more efficiency possible.

      Maybe because European and Japanese car markers are only perceived as having better fuel economy these days? Look for yourself if you don't believe me: 2 of the top 5 family sedans ranked by fuel economy are American cars and in the large sedan class, of course, the only Japanese car maker in the category is Toyota and it gets a whopping 1 mpg than its next 6 competitors. Finally in minivans, the Mazda 5 gets the best gas mileage, running a 2.3L 4 cylinder engine that happens to be made by Ford (same engine that's in the 4 cylinder Ranger pickup truck), BTW, while the next 2 are Chryslers, both of which run a 4L Mitsubishi V6.

      Perceptions, perceptions.

    57. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Monte Carlo 24 hour?

      At least Audi has won Le Mans 24Hr with a diesel-powered car ;)

    58. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely the oil companies want more efficient vehicles. Now that doesn't sound logical but I shall explain my reasoning. If more and more engines become efficient then less oil will be consumed making oil prices rise so the oil companies take as much money as they ever did because all the oil infrastructure is already in place so lower production doesn't mean higher extraction costs. The benefit to the oil companies is that as less oil is used the dwindling reserves will last longer meaning they will be profitable longer and will keep the same turnover even whilst selling less.

    59. Re:What took it all so long?? by Petaris · · Score: 1

      The fuel mileage is too good. It needs to come down before the oil lobbyists will let it exist. We have a little VW Golf TDI (diesel) and it gets 42 MPG average (based on my own observations, more high way then city) and I'm not sure that I would ever want to buy another gas vehicle again. It is noisier but its a 2002 and I am sure they have been quieted down since then.

      --
      ~Petaris "The world is open. Are you?"
    60. Re:What took it all so long?? by cide1 · · Score: 1

      Diesel fuel standards in the U.S. have improved starting in 2006 with the introduction of ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel). ULSD will become mandatory in 2010. It is common now to see at large gas stations "truck" diesel for sale at the semi pumps and "car" diesel for sale at the car pumps. I believe the difference is the sulfur content. The US standards for emissions on diesel passenger cars are a bit more stringent than Europe (probably due to lobbyists). This makes many of the cars sold in Europe not eligible for import. Its also a bit of a chicken and egg problem in that most people know of diesel either from semi trucks or early 80's Mercedes that had poor acceleration, and took forever to warm up. In the late 70's GM made a line of diesel engines based on the famous Chevy 350 gas engine, and they were notoriously bad. Recently, Chrysler sold their "Common Rail Diesel" in Jeep Liberty's here. It had about the same horsepower, significantly more torque, and better fuel consumption compared with their V6, but it sold poorly and was discontinued. VW cars are becoming pretty popular here with younger, more affluent, environmentally aware people, so I think they have a chance with their new Jetta TDI. Unfortunately, people resist change, even in the face of logic.

      --
      -- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
    61. Re:What took it all so long?? by rufty_tufty · · Score: 1

      DOH!
      Thanks don't know what I was thinking - I clearly need to rely less on coffee ;-)

      --
      "The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
    62. Re:What took it all so long?? by Scootin159 · · Score: 1

      Same here. It seems the only diesel's available are either in pickups (as part of a very expensive option package) or in a few VW cars. Even then, VW doesn't offer it across their entire model line as they do in Europe. You can only get it in a few models, from a few years, and with very limited additional options. For instance, when my wife bought her New Beetle, we couldn't find a 5 speed + diesel + convertible combination from ANY model year. We ended up having to go with an older 1.8T model to get the 5 speed in a convertible.

    63. Re:What took it all so long?? by Scootin159 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thus the air pump - just dump a certain percentage of ambient air into the exhaust prior to the test section, and magically your #'s start to look better.

    64. Re:What took it all so long?? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Diesel engines would be a far better match than gasoline for American tastes (ie. lots of torque at low revs), I can't imagine why they don't use them.

      Because diesel is a lot more expensive than gasoline here. Diesel used to be way cheaper tan gas, I don't know what changed to make diesel more expensive. Taxes, maybe?

    65. Re:What took it all so long?? by yamfry · · Score: 1

      This is true for vehicles that are marketed in the US. The top 10 cars for fuel economy in the UK include a number of vehicles that aren't marketed in the US (made by Citroen and Renault). The Prius barely scrapes in with 10th place.

    66. Re:What took it all so long?? by tepples · · Score: 1

      We Europeans are quite fond of our cars, and have no problem packing a family of four into a typical European/Asian family car for vacation.

      Does this continue for a family of five?

    67. Re:What took it all so long?? by Jimmy_B · · Score: 1

      Ford built a Fiesta with a two-stroke engine that achieved 1.4l/100km (that’s 168 mpg!) in 1996! Not a drawing. Not a experimental model. No, a real driving prototype car. Looked just like a normal Fiesta.

      I don't believe you. If anyone could make a 168 mpg car without some show-stopping problem with it, they'd be making it now. I think someone pulled that claim out of their ass, and it got copied without citation between editorials and blog comments for awhile.

    68. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In reality, noisy diesels have sold well in Europe (thanks in part to diesel fuel subsidies)

      Are you insane? What diesel fuel subsidy are you referring to? There is no diesel fuel subsidy, there is a diesel fuel TAX (and a gax tax).

      Diesel is a commodity that trades internationally. Compare that commodity price with distribution & retail overhead, and the price at the pump is MUCH higher. Why? Tax. (note that I'm not arguing whether a fuel tax is a good thing, just that it exists)

      The only countries with diesel subsidies are petro-dictatorships like Iran & Venezuela which want to keep the populace happy.

    69. Re:What took it all so long?? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that it's taxed more heavily because it's assumed that only commercial vehicles use it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    70. Re:What took it all so long?? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Americans in general are painfully ignorant of modern diesel technology, which is a shame.

      There are a few reasons for this:

      1. Until recently, U.S. fuel wasn't compatible with modern diesel tech that needs ultra-low-sulfur fuel.
      2. Some European countries until recently had a preferential tax rate on diesel, which had the effect of subsidizing the development of modern diesel tech.
      3. Minnesota. Unlike much of Europe, which is warmed by ocean currents, a large part of mainland United States and especially Canada have to deal with average high temperatures below 0 deg C for a significant part of the year. Diesel engines are harder to start in cold weather.

      Recent legislation has solved #1 and (indirectly) #2, but #3 will continue to be a problem until global warming sets in.

    71. Re:What took it all so long?? by mayko · · Score: 1

      I always thought rotary engines were cool. They struck me as the perfect engine for small compact and sporty vehicles. The engines themselves are physically small relative to your typical 4-stroke. So a light weight, high revving 2 seater or hatchback seems a perfect fit

      Although I heard repairs on them are expensive and involved... this might just be because of their rarity and mechanical unfamiliarity.

    72. Re:What took it all so long?? by plastbox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well.. yes. Not for a 2 month drive-across-the-continent-type vacation, but believe it or not we don't drive around in cars like the one Mr. Bean uses. Besides, as I posted elsewhere on this article, fuel costs roughly €1,5 here in Norway (despite the fact that we are a major producer of oil products). Even so, the fact that you get your fuel almost for free (in comparison) doesn't in any way justify driving a huge monstrosity of an SUV/pickup-truck/whatever just because you might go to Disneyland or you might have to move some heavy shit.

      I can't be arsed to do the math right now, but I'd bet that having a sensible car (that accelerates no worse, and probably drives and handles better than a huge SUV or something) offsets the cost of leasing something more roomy that one time per decade you actually go road tripping with your family of five.

    73. Re:What took it all so long?? by yabos · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why there aren't more diesels in North America either. The VW TDI Jetta costs something like $3000-$5000 more than the gas version for some reason also. I priced one out earlier this year and it would be about $30,000 Canadian dollars for a TDI with a manual transmission, power windows, air conditioning but nothing that should make it that expensive. I got a Mazda 3 gas instead for $20,000.

    74. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you be a bit more precise there, nano-euro resolution will do...

    75. Re:What took it all so long?? by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 1

      Would we even be having this silly discussion if not for that blasted EPA? =P

      FTFY. It's hard to know the facts, and be aware of what's currently offered by the (diesel) market, when you have the government agency tasked with emissions regulation spewing FUD.

      --
      Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
    76. Re:What took it all so long?? by dargaud · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So once again striking a balance between shareholder interest (increasing profits) and global economic / ecological interest (decreasing emissions and oil reliance both by better fuel efficiency and better combustion of cleaner, more varied fuel) is an impossible mission.

      Why should it be the state's interest to ensure shareholder value for private companies ?!? And honestly, if the state mandates fuel economy on new cars and forces a change in production lines, I have no fear the companies would adapt their lines to make sure their bottom line does not drop. Destroying the economy my ass.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    77. Re:What took it all so long?? by bhtooefr · · Score: 0, Troll

      Blame California's anti-car lobby attacking everything they can. They can't get regular gasoline cars off the roads, because those are too common, so they attack niches, including diesel.

      And it affects those of us that live thousands of miles away from California, because whatever they do, the EPA does 5 years later. And, because California is the biggest car market in the world, and 13 other states have signed up to California's emissions standards (which are both misguided and set to California's unique geography,) carmakers either have to meet the ridiculous California emissions standards, or not sell to some of their biggest markets.

      The emissions controls on the TDI, required to meet California (and now EPA, actually) standards cost $3-5k on top of the cost of everything else. (Yes, the TDI is optioned like a high-spec gas model. Options cost automakers almost nothing, and are a good way to hide things like expensive emissions controls. VW makes a LOT more on a high-spec 2.5 or 2.0T gas Jetta than they do on a TDI.)

      Oh, and everything that has to be done to meet emissions... means that the thing gets about 20 MPG less than it would without the emissions controls - 60 instead of 40 MPG, on the highway.

    78. Re:What took it all so long?? by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      The only way to get a diesel New Beetle convertible is to find a New Beetle convertible that has engine problems, and a New Beetle TDI that's been rear-ended. (Technically, you could use a Golf or Jetta TDI, but there are differences. New Beetle is best for this.) Combine the two.

    79. Re:What took it all so long?? by dvoecks · · Score: 1

      AFAIK, We don't have (many) diesel cars because of California's smog problem. I never want to say anything with 100% certainty on /., but I will say that I seem to remember reading an article that California has a ban on diesel cars, dating back to the 70s when the sulfur content in diesel was contributing heavily to their smog problems. With CA being such a large auto market, American manufacturers quit making diesel cars, and a lot of foreign companies quit importing them in major quantities. GM used to make diesel Caddilacs, but I don't think I've seen one newer than the mid-80s. The thing is that diesel is a lot cleaner than it used to be. It really needs to make a comeback.

    80. Re:What took it all so long?? by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. A lot of investment had to go into refineries to be able to get the sulfur content in the fuel down to new mandated levels. Once the investment is paid off, diesel may again be cheaper than gasoline, especially since diesel actually takes less energy to produce.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    81. Re:What took it all so long?? by fruey · · Score: 1

      The state of course intervenes against the overall interest of pure profit, that is what it is there for. The level of state intervention is a matter of politics, and indeed you need but look at Copenhagen to see that overall business competitiveness is the cornerstone of any negotiation on absolute emissions reduction.

      So there is a balance and nobody ever gets it right, they sway from overprotective "socialist state" and hard right "private enterprise and free market economy rules" according to geography, political will and geostrategy.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    82. Re:What took it all so long?? by Cytotoxic · · Score: 1

      It is because of low sulfur emission requirements in the US which is much more restrictive than the EU. One of the rare exceptions to the rule. It makes diesel more expensive in the US, even accounting for the added economy.

    83. Re:What took it all so long?? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "And irrespective of that, two-stroke doesn't necessarily mean less fuel consumption - and is far more likely to mean higher lubrication oil consumption."

      Hence the Lotus wet sump, removing the need for oil injection or premix methods.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    84. Re:What took it all so long?? by Foolicious · · Score: 1

      Looked just like a normal Fiesta.

      And therein lay the problem.

      --
      Please don't use "umm" or "err" or "erm".
    85. Re:What took it all so long?? by b0bby · · Score: 1

      Until oil prices go up, don't expect any good technology to prevail. The four stroke petrol engine will die, but not before oil costs increase.

      First, there aren't diesel fuel subsidies in Europe; the reason people there buy "poor performing, smaller cars" is because fuel taxes there are much much higher than in the US. So you don't have to wait until oil prices go up, you can tax consumption and watch the market adjust. Americans started buying a lot more small cars when gas hit $4/gal; imagine if it were taxed up to $8 as in most of Europe.

    86. Re:What took it all so long?? by Dare+nMc · · Score: 3, Informative

      FYI, soot is not the only emission to look out for, NOx emissions of a diesel are the other headache. The Issue is that you can directly trade NOx emissions for Soot emissions visa/versa simply by changing the injection timing, while making the same power. Soot I don't believe is a green house gas, and is more of a local air quality item. So any manufacture can make a very clean diesel engine that makes no soot, NOx be dammed, IE European standard. So that is what you saw, starting after 2000 manufactures eliminated the soot. Then in 2008 NOx was the driving regulation in USA, so they brought back the soot, and added in Soot filters to capture that out of the exhaust and burn it later.
      Also The amount you refine petroleum the reduced energy content, but also the cleaner burning. So diesel is less refined, and thus has more energy content, but wasn't as clean of burning. So now we refine it more, make it cleaner burning at a cost.

    87. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know how the parent arrived at the figure, but it isn't completely silly. At least not from required precision point of view. Money is paid in eurocents, while gasoline is measured in 0.1 liters. A full tank is about 80 litres, which means that if you are going to pay in euros, rather than krons, you need 5 significant digits to be able to calculate what you will pay, today, for just one tank of gas in Norway.

    88. Re:What took it all so long?? by Dare+nMc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually the ppm (parts per million) ratios are gone for on highway in the US, it is purely a grams per mile emissions standard for on highway cars in the US. It is percent emissions only for off highway. However, that's for the manufactures to meet, your local emissions test is going to be a PPM rating that they look-up for compliance, so I understand the confusion.

    89. Re:What took it all so long?? by b0bby · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have lived in Europe and the US - people in Europe really have a hard time understanding the American way of driving. Every winter we (family of 4, plus dog) take a trip of 2000 miles round trip, and most summers we take another of 1000 miles. A 400 mile round trip camping trip is something we do twice a year. No way am I going to rent a van 4+ times a year, I love my minivan and all its creature comforts.

      Look at the statistics - Americans have almost twice as many cars per head as in Europe, and they drive each of those cars almost twice as far each year. The fact that we get our fuel "almost for free" may not justify such behavior, but it does help explain it.

        I think that a lot of Europeans kid themselves that their virtuous behavior is due to a moral superiority when really, if fuel suddenly cost one third of what it does now in Norway, I'd predict in a couple of years you'd be seeing a lot of V8s on your roads.

    90. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm. We should make a FUD-powered engine. Now there's a renewable resource...!

    91. Re:What took it all so long?? by ubercam · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've got a 2002 Jetta TDI myself, but I like to be able to hear my engines. In fact I've advanced the injection timing at idle 5 from stock (which on mine was 0.6 BTDC at idle). This gives me much better fuel economy and a bit more power too. All you need is a Ross-Tech VAG-COM or equivalent $20 Ebay knockoff and it takes about 2 minutes to do, all on the computer. The motor will immediately sound different, better in my opinion, but it is louder and actually sounds like a diesel afterwards. It's also completely reversible if you don't like it, but I suspect the few extra MPG you'll get will more than make up for it.

      The quick and dirty howto is: With the car running, plug in the VAG-COM to the computer and the OBD2 port, open up the VAG-COM software, click Engine, login with 12233, click Adaptation, pick Channel 3, 4 or 5 (can't remember off the top of my head) and you will see the injection timing BTDC and a couple other measurements. Add 100 to the default of 32768 for each degree of advance you want. The maximum is 5 degrees in software, any more and you have to rotate the injection pump under the hood (not for beginners!). It's fine grained so you could go 1.25 degrees if you want by adding 125. I just added 500 (33268) and tested and saved. That's it. Your fuel economy instantly improves. If you don't like it, set it back to 32768 and save it, and your motor will go back to sounding like it did before.

      NB: You can only do this on the injection pump style motor, the venerable ALH, which was installed from 1999.5 to 2003. The PD style motors (BRM, BEW, BHW) were installed from 2004-2006.5 and you can't do this adaptation. On the newer common rail motors (CBEA) it's also not possible (2009+). I'm talking North American engines and model years here, I'm not well versed on the European models.

      Either way, check out the TDIClub if you're not already a member on the forums. Tons of little tricks and tips to make your TDI'ing much more pleasant. That's where I learned everything I know about them.

      As for the newer motors being quieter, yes they are. My mom drives a 2009 TDI and you can barely hear the engine at all from inside the car. Standing outside next to it, it's barely noticeable that it's even a diesel. Tons of power and can VERY easily get you into trouble with radar-wielding cops.

    92. Re:What took it all so long?? by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      then perhaps you should learn to pack your stuff with some common sense (and perhaps put your all-American family on a diet).

      FYI, in the US it is not un-common to take trips where we drive 500 miles non-stop at 70 mph. I realize that is mostly impossible in Europe (or wasteful driving in circles) where in 500 miles you might cross 5 countries. In the US you might have driven 1/2 way across Texas. If you are sitting in a car for 7 hours, no adult is going to want to ride for 7 hours in the back seat of your typical small car, I know I did 3.5 hours in Spain and took me a hour to recover. My pickup has no problem going 700 miles between fill-ups, and I have averaged 65 mph for 1300 Miles in a 20 hour period at least 5 times in the US. Each trip was to move something large, IE brought another pickup from IA, to AZ, Job relocation move, moved a camper (for a 6 month temporary living at 2 different locations)

    93. Re:What took it all so long?? by ubercam · · Score: 1

      That's why pretty much any TDI owner in the colder climes with 2 brain cells in his/her head installs a Temro Zerostart coolant heater (a.k.a. Frostheater if you buy the kit from them). You can get 750W, 1000W and 1500W and they go right in-line with the oil cooler in the coolant hose circuit. Most people use the 1000W model, including myself. I've been using mine for about a week now and the car starts like you just shut it off, at operating temperature (90 Celcius, 190 Fahrenheit) no less! Don't worry about leaving it plugged in too long because it's got a built in thermostat.

      VW does have an OEM kit, but it's like $189 and it's only 450W, but apparently they work quite well. The heater is made by Calix. However, the Zerostart kit, with all the hoses and everything you need to install it, will cost you around $100 and it does a much better job.

      Lots of cheap stealerships install a crappy stick on oil pan heating element. Those are usually 125W but you can get 250W models. They are more expensive than the Zerostart setup and burn out relatively quickly. They are also a potential fire hazard.

    94. Re:What took it all so long?? by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      They struck me as the perfect engine for small compact and sporty vehicles.

      Yes

    95. Re:What took it all so long?? by pavon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My '79 truck had one of those. Only thing it was good for was decreasing gas millage (caused by having to operate the pump? or by increasing the pressure engine that the engine had to push against when expelling exhaust?) My parents yanked that thing off pretty quickly at the recommendation of our mechanic. But, to this day I cannot register that truck in the city because I have removed an "emission decreasing device", even though the actual emission are well below the limits, and the damn pump actually increased actual emissions since it burns more gas with it on. I might not be so opposed to the idea of government regulation if the people doing so didn't constantly prove themselves to be idiots.

    96. Re:What took it all so long?? by navyjeff · · Score: 2, Informative

      Diesel emissions are awful if there are no emissions controls, true. However, there are many technologies out there that can capture or incinerate diesel soot on the exhaust. The problem has been that the EPA would not approve diesels in passenger vehicles with consumable emissions control systems (such as urea) and the sulfur content of diesel fuel was (until recently) too high to simply use particulate filters and catalytic converters.

      With modern emissions control systems, light-duty ultra-low sulfur diesel engines are both more efficient and cleaner than gasoline.

    97. Re:What took it all so long?? by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 1

      Cost. it was true the diesel used to cost a lot more the gas to fill up. Also many still think that diesel is dirty and smelly (sulfur). Plus all the black exhaust. This is no longer the case. No one is making the effort to show this to the population.

      Why? Politics and greed is my guess. There is more money to be made by keeping the gasoline as the main fuel. Also converting a diesel engine to biodiesel is not hard. It usually involves changing the fuel lines. Switching a gasoline engine to biodiesel a lot harder if at all. Even the older gasoline engines do not like ethanol in the fuel either. Not only do they get worse mileage, but the ethanol actually eats away the rubber seals in the engine fuel system.

    98. Re:What took it all so long?? by hardburn · · Score: 1

      You couldn't buy it because 2-strokes put out much worse NOx emissions due to burning oil by design. Those kinds of emissions are regulated more heavily in the US than Europe. Oil injection/direct injection helps with this, but NOx regulations keep getting tighter, especially in California. Not just because California is a nanny state (although that's part of it), but also because they have some of the smoggiest cities in the world due to geography.

      2-strokes also have a very tight power curve due to losing some of the fresh charge out the exhaust up until exhaust harmonics kick in to push it back. The Lotus design here specifically addresses that problem with a mechanism to shut the exhaust port before the cylinder rises to cover it. Quite clever!

      I'm surprised this is coming out of Lotus. They're normally thought of as a chassis company, not a powertrain company. They build supercars with an engine out of a Corolla, after all.

      --
      Not a typewriter
    99. Re:What took it all so long?? by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Don't forget one of the big 2-stroke killers in the USA was the as usual the EPA.

      Yes, with a 2-stroke spark ignition engine, you run the risk of sending unburnt fuel into the exhaust, or not expelling all of the exhaust at the end of the cycle. I think Lotus got around this problem by using direct injection technology.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    100. Re:What took it all so long?? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Uh huh. You just validated the "comfort" argument. The Citroen C2, for example, has a wheelbase of 96.5 inches and is 144 inches (12 feet) long. The current most popular car model in the United States is the Honda Accord, which is 194 inches (~16 feet) long and a wheelbase of 110 inches. The Accord is also much wider than the Citroen C2.

      My point is that the Citroen C2 would never sell in the U.S. because of its size. The Prius is considered very small by American standards, and that is one of its significant detracting points.

    101. Re:What took it all so long?? by bcaz · · Score: 1

      Diesel engines would be a far better match than gasoline for American tastes (ie. lots of torque at low revs), I can't imagine why they don't use them.

      Simple, there are 2 major issues that inhibit more widespread adoption of diesel engines in the US.

      First, a diesel refueling infrastructure that would support larger usage of the fuel didn't exist in the states until recently and secondly, up until three to five years ago, the diesel engines sold in the US were quite simply shit. We never got any of the nice, clean, reliable, torque-happy engines on this side of the pond.

    102. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL - so my comment is 'trolling' yet the original, which is still unmitigated rubbish, is informative. *sigh*

    103. Re:What took it all so long?? by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A well done two stroke won't consume lubrication oil, that's the whole point of the wet sump in the Lotus engine. Further, it can provide nearly twice the power for it's weight since each cylinder fires twice as frequently. It also means a two cylinder engine can run as smoothly as a 4 cylinder 4 stroke engine.

      As for engine power, Americans have adapted. Every time I see a commercial talking about a powerful V6, I recall that at one time V6 was the wimpy economy option and the V8 was the powerful option. At that time, 4 cylinder meant it was a street legal go-kart.

      When I learned to drive, you had to use finesse with the accelerator to avoid smoking the tires on take-off. The speedometer might only have gone up to 80, but the car would do 150. Look at what's for sale today and you'll see that indeed, American consumers HAVE changed.

    104. Re:What took it all so long?? by phayes · · Score: 1

      Too bad it's ugly as sin & you have to bend in two to be able to actually drive it.

      --
      Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
    105. Re:What took it all so long?? by Jagen · · Score: 3, Informative

      What? I guess it depends how you define efficiency but for equivalent rotations of the output shaft a Wankel engine sweeps twice it's measured volume compared to 4 stroke 4 pot, that's why they have appalling mpg, they're small but they definitely not efficient.

    106. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SHIT SON you got schooled!

    107. Re:What took it all so long?? by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      Not sure how the ski-doo does it, but oil injected at the crank is not new for two strokes; the "Monte Carlo" line of Saabs did this back in the mi9d 60s. "Normal" Saabs did 50:1 premix, but with a Monte Carlo there was a tank of oil that was fed to the crank directly (and then burned). Perhaps the Ski-doo is also doing something else.

    108. Re:What took it all so long?? by yamfry · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it is pretty small by American standards. I roll with a Golf and it's not that bad. I've had to borrow pick-ups to help move stuff a few times, though.
      [cool story] I don't know if it was a C2 or not, but once we crammed 9 people into a Citroen (including the unfortunate guy in the boot/hatch). Good times. [/cool story]

    109. Re:What took it all so long?? by Burning1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      A 2 stroke looks dirty compared to a four stroke if you compare the various amounts of controlled gases in a sample but they are often allot better in absolute terms; because they can do more work per unit of displacement and revolution.

      That's only true because they have one ignition event per revolution per cylinder. When you burn gas every revolution rather than every other revolution, you're going to perform more work per unit of displacement, per revolution yes.

      But you aren't necessarily going to perform more work per volume of fuel consumed, or more work per volume of pollutants released.

      The common 2 stroke engine blows a lot of gasoline (unburned hydrocarbons) out the exhaust, because the exhaust port must, by the nature of the common 2 stroke, be open long after air and fuel is sucked into the engine.

      Likewise, they produce foul smelling fumes, because oil must be mixed into the fuel. The common 2 stroke uses the crankcase as a pressure chamber to force air into the cylinder. Because the crankcase cannot be filled with oil, the fuel it's self must lubricate the engine, requiring a mix of oil to be introduced to the gasoline. The result is an engine that smells like a 4 stroke with badly worn out rings and valve guides.

      Now, there are a few designs that work around these issues:

      Diesel 2 stroke engines use exhaust valves, superchargers, and fuel injection. Because fuel is not injected into the cylinder until long after the intake port and exhaust valves have closed, the engine does not blow unburnt fuel out the exhaust. And because a supercharger is used for exhaust scavenging (removal) the crank case can be filled with oil, eliminating the need for premix. Anyone who's been near a diesel locomotive can attest that it doesn't smell or smoke like your typical 2 stroke.

      The same technology can be employed with 2 stroke gasoline engines. Gasoline Direct Injection with supercharging has some clear advantages over traditional 2-strokes... Never-mind the fact that the supercharger could be used to produce some pretty insane power output out of a small displacement engine.

      2 strokes also have the advantage that they are quieter than your typical 4 stroke. The only reason people tend to think of them as loud is because they don't require much in the way of silencing.

      Anyway... Long rambling post. Short version: no, traditional 2 strokes are not clean. Modern 2 strokes show a lot of promise.

    110. Re:What took it all so long?? by default+luser · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because diesel is a lot more expensive than gasoline here. Diesel used to be way cheaper tan gas, I don't know what changed to make diesel more expensive. Taxes, maybe?

      I'm going to quote a very insightful post I once read. But first, the cliff notes:

      1. Diesel is more in-demand in this country than most people think, because there is a very high demand for heating oil in the winter. Heating Oil ~= Diesel with a different dye added.

      2. Given a barrel of oil, you can only extract about half as much Diesel fuel as you can regular gasoline. This limits the amount we can supply in-relation to regular gasoline, which is why Diesel (already im high demand) is more expensive.

      3. Diesel is more heavily taxed than heating oil or regular gasoline, so in-addition to the fact that diesel is already heavily in-demand, it is the most highly taxed fuel on the road.

      So really, the diesel revolution everyone wants to happen in this country is not going to happen. If we had as many Diesel cars as Europe, the fuel prices would go through the roof, because our demand for Diesel/Fuel Oil is already very high.

      And now, the quote:

      Because the price is set, like all prices in a capitalist economy, by what the market will bear rather than by absolute cost of production. They call this process "market forces," as if they exist outside of themselves, when talking to consumers, but refer to "record profits" when talking to stockholders.

      Diesel used to be much cheaper than gasoline, until it became popular to put it into consumer vehicles, but several things have happened to change the production cost of the fuel at the pump.

      First is the transition to ultra-low sulfur diesel, which adds perhaps five to eight cents per gallon, counting both direct costs -- the purchase price of low sulfur oil is higher than oil o lesser quality -- and investment costs required to further refine ordinary oil.

      The second is taxes. Diesel fuel is essentially the same stuff as heating oil, but is taxed at a higher rate. 18% of the average price at the pump, according to the DOE, is taxes, 54% is the cost of the oil itself, 22% is the cost of refining, and 18% is distribution, marketing, and profit.

      Of course many companies sell themselves their own oil, so there may be substantial profit on that transaction as well.

      For gasoline, again according to the ODE, 15% of the price is taxes, 55% the cost of the oil, 15% the cost of the refining process, and 14% distribution, marketing, and profit.

      In 1990, the average price of gasoline was $1.16 per gallon, the average cost of diesel fuel was $0.73 per gallon, and the average cost of heating fuel was $1.06.

      In 2002, the average cost of gasoline was $1.36 per gallon, the average cost of diesel fuel was $0.76 per gallon, and the average cost of heating fuel was $1.13.

      1in 2005, the average cost of gasoline was $1.87 per gallon, the average cost of diesel fuel was $1.95 per gallon, and the average cost of heating fuel was $2.05.

      As you can easily see, the relative prices have varied all over the map.

      The obvious inference is that, despite the higher taxes on diesel fuel in comparison to heating oil, and very similar costs of production, people are more driven to heat their homes than they are to drive their diesel cars, so the companies can charge more.

      Likewise, in 1990, diesel cars were uncommon, and the primary users of diesel fuel were commercial, driving large trucks or tractors.

      Presumably, a fellow filling up a truck with 300 gallons of diesel fuel every day or two is in a better position to drive a hard bargain than is a fellow filling his VW diesel with 16 gallons one a week or so.

      Cheers,

      Lee Anne

      --

      Man is the animal that laughs.
      And occasionally whores for Karma.

    111. Re:What took it all so long?? by tepples · · Score: 1

      any TDI owner in the colder climes with 2 brain cells in his/her head installs a Temro Zerostart coolant heater

      Does a diesel engine heater stay on when the car is off and drain the battery? Or does it take a while to warm up after the driver flips a switch, increasing the car's startup time? Or what am I missing?

    112. Re:What took it all so long?? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Where are the mods? That was the most informative comment I've seen all day.

    113. Re:What took it all so long?? by chthon · · Score: 1

      Here in Belgium it is around 1EUR/liter.

    114. Re:What took it all so long?? by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      You're being grossly unfair to American automotive manufacturers, both domestically owned ones and also foreign companies selling products in the US.

      Most modern vehicles sold in the US receive excellent fuel economy for their size, power output, and 87 octane (American rating - it would be 91 octane in Europe) gasoline. European vehicles consume less fuel on average due to lower size, lower power output, and use of diesel fuel or gasoline that is octane 95 (91 in American rating) or higher. The European automakers have no inherent engineering superiority.

      For example, a rear wheel drive Mercedes E350 sedan sold in the US gets noticeably poorer fuel economy than a 2010 front wheel drive Ford Taurus sedan that is longer, wider, taller, significantly heavier, and rated for just 5 horsepower (~3 kW) less peak engine power output, and the Mercedes requires higher octane gasoline. The rear wheel drive BMW M3 high performance sedan is rated for dramatically worse fuel economy than the Chevy Camaro SS, even though their peak power output is similar and the Camaro is longer, wider, heavier, and faster in a straight line (the BMW handles tremendously better than the Camaro - but since it costs 75% more, it should). In both cases, the European model is a superior vehicle overall, but in terms of engine efficiency they have no edge.

    115. Re:What took it all so long?? by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      I understand it's more difficult for manufacturers to meet American diesel emissions requirements. So very few automakers make the attempt outside of the heavy duty pickup truck and heavy duty van market - currently only Volkswagen (and linked luxury brand Audi), Mercedes, and BMW offer diesel engines for passenger vehicles and only for a few models. Except for the Volkswagen sedans, the diesel models are quite costly.

      Also, local taxes pay a role. I live in Pennsylvania, and here the fuel tax on diesel fuel is about 20% higher than on gasoline. That negates almost all of the cost savings I would receive from driving a more efficient diesel engine vehicle.

      Personally, I would purchase a diesel engine for my next vehicle if it was available within a $4,000 or so price window of an equivalent gasoline model. I'm contemplating a minivan purchase for our family of six - the cheapest equivalent vehicles are the Mercedes R320 diesel and Audi Q7 diesel, both nearly double the price of an entry level minivan. I do a lot of driving, but even if Pennsylvania did not tax diesel fuel higher and it consistently delivered 30% superior fuel economy it would take over a decade of ownership to recoup the difference in purchase price. Plus, the maintenance costs on an Audi or Mercedes are prohibitive while minivans are relatively cheap.

    116. Re:What took it all so long?? by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      A more accurate depictions is that America has a big truck equals tough working man cultural image. (Or tough woman even - I've met women who drive large pickups just because they enjoy it too.) The same cultural view hasn't caught on in Europe, probably because your fuel taxes make the use of a large pickup or equivalent vehicle for commuting prohibitively expensive. Automakers selling vehicles in the US, both domestic and foreign, have cultivated this image because the larger vehicles are more profitable. From what little interaction I've had with Europeans, if anything there is an opposite social pressure in Europe - slim and efficient vehicles are prestigious while unnecessarily large ones are objects of scorn.

      And I must admit, I'm drawn to the American view of big trucks and SUVs. I would love the opportunity to travel around in an enormous truck or perhaps a Ford Expedition. Fortunately for the environment and for those seeking to reduce US dependence on foreign oil, I can't afford it.

    117. Re:What took it all so long?? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      And while the Golf is also small by American standards, it also dwarfs the Citroen C2 at 166 inches long with a wheelbase of 101.5 inches. Add to that it's 70 inches wide, and well, it's huge compared the Citroen.

      See what I mean?

      It isn't that the Europeans are getting better mileage because their engine technology is so superior. Turbo diesels sell here in the U.S., too, and Chrysler (and maybe Ford or GM?) has even offered several of its cars from time-to-time with a turbo diesel engine.

      The Europeans are getting better gas mileage because they're driving smaller cars that would be considered unpalatable by American consumers. Let's face it, we're used to driving our Yank Tanks.

    118. Re:What took it all so long?? by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      That's fascinating, I did not know that about the emissions/horsepower hour comparison. But consider the fuel economy of the Mazda RX-8. It's a lightweight sports car with a relatively modest (for a modern sports car) 232 horsepower (173 kW) peak output rating, and the EPA fuel economy and real world fuel economy ratings for it are 16 city/22 highway. For comparison, the 2010 Ford Taurus SHO is 4400 pounds with all wheel drive and 365 peak horsepower (272 kW) and it is EPA rated 17 city/25 highway.

      Do you know why that is?

    119. Re:What took it all so long?? by ubercam · · Score: 1

      My apologies! I forgot that this is a global forum and I didn't really explain that as thoroughly as I should have. If you don't live anywhere near where it's below freezing for months at a time, you've likely never seen a plug hanging off the front of a car.

      It's like any regular engine block heater, it plugs into the wall. In case you've never heard of a block heater, it's a heating element that is inserted into one of the freeze plugs in the engine's cooling jacket to warm the coolant in the engine when plugged into the wall, no battery power required. These typically operate at about 400W. VW's TDI engines from 1999.5 onward have no freeze plugs (I don't know why), so we have to do things a bit differently. I've got mine on a timer that starts at 4am and runs till 8am. That's all it needs really.

    120. Re:What took it all so long?? by ubercam · · Score: 1

      I also neglected to mention glow plugs.

      When it's below a certain temperature outside, the glow plugs come on prior to starting. On my car there is one glow plug in each cylinder and 3 in the cooling jacket. If it's really cold, they will stay on for up to about 10 seconds. They create a hot spot in the cylinders to entice the diesel to ignite. In the absence of a place to plug in the Zerostart (like my parking lot at work), they make all the difference between being able to start the car and being stranded.

    121. Re:What took it all so long?? by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

      Agreed. The latest GM engine tech (the direct injection engine HFV6 I think they call it) is quite impressive. If you look at honda or mazda in particular, the performance/size of vehicle/mileage is not as good. I bought the CTS DI caddy in 08 and on trips it consistently gets 28mpg. It is responsive, comfy & powerful. The problem is it is popular to bash american cars because of the crap they put out in the 70's/80's. Now the sheeple all buy german/japanese cars blindly.

    122. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Er, in theory, Wankel could be "more efficient (all rotating parts, no complete turns in direction." It's a seductive idea, and a lot of serious engineering work has been done without success.

      Around 1965 Ford and Curtiss-Wright put years of sincere arguing to the test by investing in building similar test units of each of around 200hp. They tested these in cars and in lightplanes, which have different power-curve needs. No vested interest -- these guys really wanted to know if the Wankel was the future to build factories around. It didn't work out. At the end of the day the engines were coin-toss similar, plus the Wankel required more expensive machining.

      And we haven't had any success since. Mazda, which competes in efficiency markets with pistons, only uses the Wankel in niche sexy sports cars because the Wankel is niche and sexy. I really like them, but they're not better, just different.

      Very sorry I don't have a citation -- I read through the test results in my aircaft college library back in the 80s. It'd be /great/ if some current engineering student would unearth and upload these. And I'm kinda guessing no one has yet because only Wankel enthusiasts would track them down, and people tend to stop being Wankel enthusiasts after reading them.

    123. Re:What took it all so long?? by binary+paladin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And when gas was up to $4.50 here in the states around the last summer Olympics, people did, in fact, drive much less.

    124. Re:What took it all so long?? by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      There is no such ban. I have no idea if there was ever a ban (I would suspect not).

      What there are are emissions restrictions. If diesel vehicles can meet or exceed the restrictions, then they can be sold/used. In the past, presumably they were not able to typically meet those restrictions (at prices where consumer vehicle buyers were willing to pay).

      A bit of googling finds http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/carb_pm_regs.pdf, which contains this:
      Adopted: September 2003, Effective: December 2004 ...
      Highway and Non-highway Diesel Fuel Requires the use of ultra-low sulfur (ULSD) (15 parts per million) diesel fuel for highway and non- highway applications starting in June 2006. California's diesel fuel regulations are concurrent with US EPA highway diesel fuel regulation, but accelerate the use of ULSD in non-highway applications by three to five years. ARB regulatory information: http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/diesel/diesel.htm

      So obviously they're not banned now.

      On the main topic, aren't 2 stroke engines WAY louder than 4 stroke engines? The only 2 stroke engines I remember are (I think Yamaha) dirt-bike motorcycles.. and they were always REALLY annoyingly loud with a high-pitched whine. I guess leaf blowers are 2 stroke too.

    125. Re:What took it all so long?? by pyrr · · Score: 2, Informative

      Eh, the power-to-weight ratio is good on a two-stroke, because they often can just skip the whole oil-sump design element altogether (total loss lubrication). You can't do that in a four-stroke without wrecking the cylinder walls on the non-induction strokes.

      If you take a two-stroke with an oil circulation system, say a Detroit Diesel Series 71 or Series 92 engine, you just wind-up with an exceptionally dirty (from a pollution standpoint) engine that gets mediocre fuel mileage and has an odd power curve, all else being roughly equal in the application you're using the engine in.

      The ONLY advantage most two-stroke engine have are the way they have fewer moving parts to adjust or break, since they use ports (passive fenestra in the cylinder walls which the elongated piston blocks) instead of valves (the diesels usually have intake ports and exhaust valves), which makes them slightly more reliable and inexpensive to produce. Some applications also thrive on the power curve you get from the two-strokes, mostly all-or-none type of things where the engine is either idling or at full-throttle (from chain saws to locomotive generators). They typically start to fall flat in applications that require massive low-end torque.

    126. Re:What took it all so long?? by pyrr · · Score: 1

      I'd point out that, while you're really on-target, the two-stroke diesels are still filthy enough that they don't pass vehicle emissions in jurisdictions with air quality standards in place. They just produce far too much smoke under load, even when they're in perfect condition, and thus fail the emissions opacity test.

    127. Re:What took it all so long?? by pyrr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...I don't see me putting a diesel engine in my motorbike anytime soon...

      Hayes Diversified has been developing a diesel enduro (http://www.hdtusa.com/vehicle-m1030-m2.php) for military applications, it seems like a pretty neat bike, if they start selling them to civilians, I'd really have to have a look at that.

      Also, there are some Royal Enfield diesel bikes. They have the vintage British Twin styling that RE licensed so very, very long ago (I guess it's a timeless design, especially in India), and the charming purr of a diesel engine. I must say I'm tempted by those too, but they're a bit hard to come by in the States.

    128. Re:What took it all so long?? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      I wanted to say this earlier but stupid Safari 2 crashes on any tries to reply on Slashdot so ..

      the clueless Naciremas did this right: diesel emissions are just awful

      I doubt it's beneficial to continue that war you guys got going over there. Anyway, the thing is diesel emissions are (or was) worse over there on your side than it is (or was) here.

      http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/how-clean-diesel-fuel-works1.htm

      "Ultra low sulphur diesel fuel has been refined so that its sulphur content is 15 parts per million (ppm) or less. This is 97 percent cleaner than the standard highway-use diesel fuel sold in the US, which contains an average of 500 ppm of sulphur."

      "ULSD fuel has been the standard in Europe for several years. In the U.S., the changeover process began in June 2006, when the EPA enacted a mandate requiring 80 percent of the highway diesel fuel produced or imported to meet the 15 ppm standard. The new ULSD fuel went on sale at most stations nationwide in mid-October 2006. Both diesel fuels will be on sale for the next few years, with the goal being a gradual phaseout of 500 ppm diesel. By December 2010, all highway-use diesel fuel offered for sale in the U.S. must be ULSD fuel."

      "ULSD fuel will work in concert with a new generation of diesel engines that will begin arriving for the 2007 model year. Ideally, ULSD will enable the new generation of diesel vehicles to meet the same strict emission standards as gasoline-powered vehicles. The new engines will utilize an emissions-reducing device called a particulate filter."

      "Diesel engines manufactured for the 2007 model year and later will utilize some type of particulate filter and will be designed to run solely on ULSD fuel."

      I don't know when that was written, but it seems like it's a couple of years old and that your modern cars may have caught up.

      If your information is newer than that then I stand corrected, if not I think you have to accept that things move on and improve and that old issues don't have to be around longer, and in this case was solved earlier over here.

      So if you had (well, if you as a unity) wanted to have cleaner diesels you could have had them earlier to.

    129. Re:What took it all so long?? by emilper · · Score: 1

      Thank you, now can I print your answer and take it to the US embassy when I apply for a Green Card ?

      I suppose you live in a country with a balmy climate, or you are very skilled at unfreezing the diesel engine with the gasoline burner.

      So, you say all diesel engines in Europe got converted to the new model (particulate filtration and all) when the law was passed ? Where I live we called diesel automobiles "Halley" ... because of the visible tail of smoke ... or "tractors".

      Last time I checked, the Sulfur was not the biggest problem, but rather the formaldehyde, the acrolein, the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and other nasties, which will get filtered only if you use a gas mask.

    130. Re:What took it all so long?? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      A filling station near where I live has two diesel pumps, offroad (dyed, heating oil) and regular (undyed). The heating oil is cheaper by the amount of the road taxes for vehicles.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    131. Re:What took it all so long?? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      So diesel is less refined, and thus has more energy content

      Non Sequitur

      Diesel has higher energy content entirely because of its chemical form, not its purity.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    132. Re:What took it all so long?? by Petaris · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the tips and I am a member at TDI Club but I'm not real active yet. I read through the maintenance section but thats all I've had time for so far. We only got the car in October. So far we are loving it.

      --
      ~Petaris "The world is open. Are you?"
    133. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But carbon monoxide is odourless colorless and may be measured.

    134. Re:What took it all so long?? by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      I would assume they are so restricted engines due to emissions, and/or fuel consumption is not really on their "TODO" list when they design the cars.

      Many sports cars consume A LOT, despite being highly efficient engines, so i would assume they don't really even try to cut the consumption at all for travel.

      Big cars are always designed consumption in mind because they would have so so high consumption otherwise. ie. small trucks tend to consume a minimum of over 20l/100km when empty, and highway, that's around 12mpg. (Small truck just over 6000 pounds)

    135. Re:What took it all so long?? by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      Wankel can be efficient, it's been demonstrated many times in the past.

      The problem with wankel is the low torque, high rev nature. Emissions limit it to extremely small engine sizes.

      I wonder what would happen if wankel's idle rpm is allowed to be say 1500rpm, and the whole band at the same ratio higher.

      You do realize 2-stroke is usually considered to be especially high emission engine? Yet, Lotus managed to build this very low emission engine ...

    136. Re:What took it all so long?? by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      I would assume so aswell, rarity and different operating principle.

      They are very cool indeed, and i would love to see someone taking the full advantage of a rotary engine, that means extremely high revving engine.

    137. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First off, *noisy* diesels do not sell well at all in Europe. The diesel trucks the car cos have on the market in the states are low-tech junk in comparison to modern car diesels. VW TDI (one of the few diesels on the market in the states in the last 15 years), I heard one sound like a diesel for about 10 seconds after startup, in -10 (fahrenheit!) weather (that's like -20 celsius). Warm weather, nice and quiet at all times.

                So, why the screwed up car market in the US? It's a horrible cause-and-effect feedback loop, which thankfully will be broken in the next few years i think...

                Car company designs a small but high MPG car. They decide to bring it to the US. "Oh, but Americans like V8s and V6's!" They either shoehorn some V6 in there, killing gas mileage, or retune, regear, and perhaps supercharge or turbocharge the biggest 4 cylinder the car came with internationally -- cutting the mileage by 1/3rd to 1/2.
                The car cos making larger cars with V6s or V8s tune these for mileage.
                As a consequence, the small car with a 4 gets THE SAME mileage as the big car with a V6 or V8. Guess what? if i am gaining only 0 to 3MPG by going from a midsize to a subcompact, I am not getting the subcompact.
                The small car doesn't sell, the car company concludes small cars don't sell and perhaps pull it off the market, or perhaps keep it but don't develop it any further.
                Rinse and repeat! Result? Very few small cars on the market, the ones that are on the market get horrible gas mileage (except Prius, and Insight, I suppose...) and almost everyone driving huge cars.

                And for you guys claiming this is just US car cos and doesn't apply to Europeans and japanese -- BULLLLLSHIT. Look at the mileage of the Dodge, Ford, Chevy, vehicles, and look at the MPG of the japanese and European cars *available in the US*. Dodges aren't great, but the Fords and GM vehicles are as good or better MPG-wise than what Toyota etc. are brining into the US. Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, etc. *and* GM and Ford are ALL playing the same trick (European Fords and Holdens (Holden is a European divison of GM) get far better MPG than you'll find in the US too.)

    138. Re:What took it all so long?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two stroke diesel engine are less fuel efficient than the four stroke diesel. I don't remember the difference in fuel economy between 2 and 4 stroke disels but *THINK* it in the range of 2-4%. While this may not seem much for automobiles, but in railroad locomotives this does amount to a significant difference. Most US railroad locomotive fuel tanks are in the range of 3,000 gallons.

    139. Re:What took it all so long?? by NelsChristian · · Score: 1
      I can't imagine why they don't use them.

      A few possibilities:

      • Taxes based on mostly trucking use for diesel - higher than gasoline. I.e. we have slow-footed politicians.
      • Emission standards met only recently, combined with slow footed US car companies
      • Bad history with stupid diesel offers in the past - US car companies never seem to be able to do things right after a mistake. For all their PR money, they never seem to think they are good enough to actually change the consumer opinions about a car, but they do think they can fool them (i.e. After X-cars got a bad name, they just re-labled the cars and the platform).
      • Siberian weather in the midwest - A hard cold snap in the fall can jell summer weight diesel fuel. Getting stranded in the cold just once for such a reason would convinvce the strandee and all their friends and family to never try diesel.
    140. Re:What took it all so long?? by Kuroji · · Score: 1

      If you didn't expect that, then why were you posting anonymously?

  5. I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They can be run on multiple fuels (or indeed, mixtures thereof) and would be ideal for a series-hybrid vehicle, where the drivetrain could be eliminated (it was the weak point in the turbine cars.)

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      There is definitely an advantage in running very hot and fast. Waste heat might actually be of use that way as well.

    2. Re:I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The Chrysler turbine engine actually had a regeneration system to feed exhaust gases back to the intake to lean the air-fuel ratio instead of decreasing speed, so that it would keep the motor spooled up and hot. The biggest problems with it were in the primary gear drive which brought output RPMs down to transmission levels, and in the volume of exhaust gases. A smaller, more modern car could have a smaller turbine yet, and thus less exhaust.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's being done again (by multiple suppliers, but I'll show you one).
      http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/12/01/cmt_380_microturbine/

      There is too much in 'new' engine technology to follow at the moment. Some will survive, most will die.

    4. Re:I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely turbine engines are inefficient because they can never create the desired compression ratio's (10/1 for petrol and 16/1 for diesel) although they do save a lot because the don't reciprocate.

    5. Re:I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Waste heat might actually be of use that way as well.

      Use it to run a steam engine ... which is sort of what this does.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by dargaud · · Score: 1

      So why aren't turbines used in hybrid cars ? They look perfect to recharge batteries at their peak efficiency.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    7. Re:I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      My guesses:
      * Economy of scale. There are a lot more companies making parts for cylinder engines than turbines, so it's a lot easier and cheaper to build for the same horsepower.
      * Repair and maintenance. You take a Prius to your neighborhood dealer, and so long as there's not a problem with the battery or motor/generator, he can fix it. You bring him a turbine engine, and he'll be baffled.

    8. Re:I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fact is that turbine engines require too much maintenance for common road use. They would not hold up well in a car bashing around on the street for 15-30k miles a year.

      Lots of tight tolerances and tiny breakable, easily foulable components in a turbine.

    9. Re:I have in mind a superior fuel-agnostic engine by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Fact is that turbine engines require too much maintenance for common road use. They would not hold up well in a car bashing around on the street for 15-30k miles a year.

      One nice thing about an electric powertrain is that you can isolate the engine as much as you like. Big squooshy motor mounts with dampers and an engine mounted with an orientation that will prevent it from flopping around excessively will do the job just fine. You'd be amazed (or perhaps not, if you already know) how much the engine in a stock Sentra, Civic or similar flops around when driven in a spirited fashion... Or for that matter, how much those big ugly American V8s can rock in their cradle when you give the pedal a good squoosh. You could give a good shove to the throttle linkage on my 1960 Dart's Big-Block 318 Hemi and it would damned near jerk itself out of your hand, on new (stock) motor mounts. Meanwhile, the reduced mass of the turbine engine will reduce problems created by mounting it loosely. Of course, when I say "reduced" I mean compared to average; A four-cylinder, all-alloy Subaru motor with aluminum pistons and a turbo added (not the factory unit) and converted for aviation use can put out 300 HP at around 200 pounds for the entire engine. It still won't have the efficiency, however, of a regenerating turbine, especially one which you can run at peak efficiency since you're using it as a battery charger.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  6. Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promotions by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 2, Funny

    This drives me nuts.

    What about this is new? Does it exist due to breakthroughs and material science we didn't have available thirty years ago? Not that I can see.

    Which means this is nothing that a team of imaginative engineers couldn't have come up with long ago, and likely would have, (and probably did) if they'd been allowed to. Fuel efficiency means the oil billionaires, (the people who have been running things since forever), make less money. The only reason this is happening now is because the corrupt deals being cut in Copenhagen with regard to carbon trading and various other ass-backward plans are a means of making more profit in different ways and promise greater control over every aspect of our lives.

    Look, I'm all for efficiency and I'm sure the engineering team on this project are fine people. But this is bullshit. It's a press release which appears in the same breath as that Israeli company and their silicone battery. The people allowing this stuff to float to the top of global media-consciousness don't care about the actual state of human affairs or about the genuinely awesome things we could be actually doing with technology. This is about agendas and sculpting public awareness and making damned sure the slaves are tightly locked down.

    So, yeah, thanks Lotus. Very courageous of you to cautiously advance this lukewarm idea past the oil barons. Because crop-based fuels are SUCH a good idea.

    -FL

  7. Re:It's so quick by lastgoodnickname · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    not using a car analogy is like walking

  8. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by squizzar · · Score: 1

    This engine looks to be a lot more complex than the usual two strokes, so it will cost a lot more to manufacture and maintain, a lot more to design and engineer, will have lower yield rates/higher failure rates so it will cost the customer a lot more money. So, as a consumer of engines, do you spend possibly twice as much on the engine because it is 10% more efficient? If the major cost is the engine itself and fuel - as has been the case up until recently - is comparatively cheap which will you buy? As a manufacturer who has to compete with other companies, which design is the best choice for you to focus on? Yes these could have been designed earlier, but the reason they weren't is nothing to do with propping up oil companies profits, it's to do with whether there was any profit to be made in building the engines.

    What drove the adoption of fuel injection over carburettors? It wasn't oil companies, it was the pressure of emissions legislation: it's cheaper to produce an engine that meets the requirements with FI. Before that was a factor, carburettors are much cheaper so that's what was used. As fuel becomes more expensive and the quantity of emissions becomes a significant factor it becomes profitable to build more complex and expensive engines because that cost is recouped by the lowered consumption and emissions.

    30 years ago we didn't have the electronic control systems, the precise manufacturing and the economic pressures we do now, so suddenly these 'designs we should have thought of years ago' become viable.

    I talked to some guys who were doing automotive engineering apprenticeships at Lucas, and they said one of their projects was to design a super efficient carburettor for a motorcycle engine (this was around 1997). Their design was hugely efficient in comparison to the existing product, something like 20-30%, but significantly more complex and hence it was not suitable for production.

    It would be great if we actually had all the technology and knowledge that we need to survive for an eternity in peace and harmony with our surroundings, but the likelihood of that being the case, and that it is all being held back by a few greedy corporations seems pretty slim...

    Also wrt. the crop based fuels, since this can run on pretty much anything, wouldn't that open up the possibilities for switchgrass, algae based fuels etc. which are not based on food crop sources? Ethanol from corn is a bad idea - and one that is actually promoted by some big evil corporations

  9. 10% improvement isn't that much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So I pay $30, not $33 when getting gas. Whoop-dee-doo. We need a car that doesn't USE GAS. Hydrogen or electricity please.

    1. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by burne · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You've missed the Flex-Fuel. It will run on any variation of ethanol/gas mixture, from E5 all the way up to E100. You decide how green you want to be and this engine will adapt to your choice of fuel.

    2. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by paiute · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are assuming that ethanol is a green fuel. I'm not so sure about corn-based ethanol. Future technology may change that, but I am uneasy using a subsidized food crop to make fuel for cars.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    3. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No one outside the USA uses corn for ethanol. It's only grown in the USA because it gets stupidly high government subsidies making it cheaper than everything else. If you drive across France, you'll see lots of bright yellow fields growing rapeseed, which is used to produce fuel.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by KDEnut · · Score: 1

      For the most part, bioethanol is produced from whatever is the main sugar-crop in the area. For example: In the midwest it's corn, In the midsouth its switchgrass, Sugarbeets in the northeast & Europe, and Sugarcane in more equitorial regions (Like Brazil, who despite being an OPEC nation gets most of their fuel from bioethanol).

      Lots of good information and links here.

    5. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And that's used for BioDiesel, not Ethanol. BioDiesel is MUCH more environment friendly in terms of production. A few simple catalysts and it's done, no waiting for or heating fermentation.

    6. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      And if you visit Indonesia you will see a lot of subsidised Palm Oil plantations where rainforest used to be.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    7. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Darth+Sdlavrot · · Score: 1

      If you drive across France, you'll see lots of bright yellow fields growing rapeseed...

      Petrol in France (currently about €1.29/litre* or nearly $7.50/US gallon) costs too much for me to drive across France.

      But I might take the train.

      *http://www.prix-carburants.gouv.fr/

    8. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by realityimpaired · · Score: 5, Informative

      Specifically because retarded people weren't able to make the distinction between rape and rapeseed, they call the plant Canola on this side of the pond.

    9. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Darth+Sdlavrot · · Score: 1

      ... they call the plant Canola on this side of the pond.

      Seems like we call canola, a particular variety of rapeseed, canola; and rapeseed, when that's what it is, rapeseed.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola

    10. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by csartanis · · Score: 1

      It doesn't really save you any money until you know what MPG you get with each type of fuel vs the price of that fuel. While this is a good idea, it sounds like it will be too much work for the average idiot.

    11. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by fgouget · · Score: 1

      You are assuming that ethanol is a green fuel. I'm not so sure about corn-based ethanol. Future technology may change that, but I am uneasy using a subsidized food crop to make fuel for cars.

      The grand-parent is not assuming anything, you are the one who missed that since this is a Flex-Fuel engine, you choose whether to subsidize ethanol or not. So if this ever takes off, buy a car with this engine, continue using regular fossil fuel, and enjoy the 10% consumption reduction anyway.

    12. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Specifically because retarded people weren't able to make the distinction between rape and rapeseed, they call the plant Canola on this side of the pond.

      Stop being so niggardly.

    13. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is growing rapeseed preferable to growing fuel corn? Either way each hectare of good farmland used to produce fuel is one less used for growing food.

    14. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by cpotoso · · Score: 0, Troll
      Where did you get that??? Case in point: a significant portion of cars in Brasil are ethanol-based. Not from corn but from sugar cane. This started in the late-70's and is still going strong.

      \begin{rant}

      I really fail to see how you could have modded-up to 5 "insightful", shows how ignorant the average slashdotter can be :-)

      \end{rant}

    15. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Exp315 · · Score: 1

      Flex fuel engines are the norm for new cars in Brazil now (meaning gasoline/alcohol, not diesel). But there's a flaw in this picture: Drivers quickly discover which fuel is cheaper and offers a longer range (gasoline), and that's what they use exclusively. So in practice the advantage is more theoretical than actual.

    16. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right... and everyone else refers to corn as maize. Who gives a crap?

    17. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Canola isn't actually rapeseed, it's a crossbreed. Its name comes from Canadian Oil Low Acid. It was developed to have an edible form of rapeseed and now is grown across the world. The Brassica genus includes everything from mustard to rutabega.

    18. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by hardburn · · Score: 1

      The problem with food shortages isn't a matter of having enough food, it's getting it to where it needs to go. The US alone can massively overshoot what the world needs in food production, but then the food rots in harbors while petty local bureaucrats and dictators hold up the paperwork.

      --
      Not a typewriter
    19. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Uh, what? Did you even read my post? Nothing you said contradicts anything that I said...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    20. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Thelasko · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You've missed the Flex-Fuel

      There are lots of Flex-Fuel cars on the road these days. The big difference here is that it runs efficiently on multiple fuels.

      Current flex fuel vehicles run on a standard ~9:1 compression ratio. This ratio burns regular 87 octane pump gas just fine. But E85 has an octane rating of approximately 105. This means it can run at much higher compression ratios (like 14:1). Higher compression ratios mean higher efficiency.

      Because current Flex-Fuel vehicles burn E85 at 9:1 compression ratios, they experience a 30% reduction in efficiency on E85. This engine won't experience that. Not only can it run on multiple types of fuel, it can do so efficiently.

      I'm interested in what kind of control logic they use to vary the compression ratio. How do they know the combustion properties of the fuel?

      Disclaimer: I am a combustion engineer, and I have spent the past 3 years working on 2-stroke diesel engines.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    21. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by LOLLinux · · Score: 1

      No, we are forced to subsidize the corn-based ethanol producers. There is no choose in this when the money comes from our taxes.

    22. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by FlyingGuy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not picking a fight here so please don't take it that way

      Do you realize that using Electricity or Hydrogen is not quiet as green as everyone thinks is?

      The combustion of H and O2 yields H2O but I have yet to see the spectrum of the exhaust gases of H - Atmosphere - Oil Vapor combustion.

      I suspect it is something quite different then what the public has been sold since our atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases. Air also contains a variable amount of water vapor, on average around 1%.

      Until we find a way to isolate H from available sources with an efficiency factor an order of magnitude better then what we have now the cost will stay prohibitive.

      Electric cars are great and battery technology is getting there but still quite a ways out for a pure electric ( as opposed to Hybrid ) vehicle that has the range and performance of the most efficient petroleum powered vehicle.

      Electric cars are mostly a shift of the pollution problem from individual power generation ( the engine burning petroleum ) to the very very large and new power plants that would have to be built to charge those batteries.

      I have never seen a study that shows how many Megawatts are produced by the average number of cars being driven at one time but I suspect it is rather high value. Just a completely off the cuff calculation here but, the San Francisco Bay Bridge has about 250,000 cars crossing it every day.So the average maximum power output of those cars is probably around 149 KW. Assume that each runs about 50% of rated power on average so... 74.5 KW * 250000 = 18.5 MW

      So assume that an internal combustion engine is only about 30% efficient and an electric motor can approach about 90% efficiency in the 50 to 100hp power range. so 18 div 3 = 6 MW (give or take). So by that very rough calculation we need to add 6 MW of capacity just for the cars crossing the bay bridge in any 24 hour period.

      That additional capacity has to come from someplace. We are pushing a very fine line on hydro power since we are trying to balance fish stocks and habitat -v- building bigger damns, I doubt it can come from there. So what does that leave? Geo-Thermal, Solar, Wind, Nuclear and of course fossil fuel. So the question is, which do we start building more of, and in who's backyard? These are hard problems with no easy answers. People still need to get from point A to points B,C,D etc.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    23. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by digitalunity · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wouldn't a knock sensor be able to tell the PCM when to back off the compression ratio? The PCM could maintain short and long term trim tables of compression ratios mapped to throttle angle. Some engines already use these sensors for short and long term spark ignition timing advance tables. As for recognizing the fuel type, unless it can rely on a knock sensor, I can't see any way to detect what the fuel type is other than some easily detectable property(electrical resistance maybe? density?).

      What I'm curious about is how fast can it change the compression ratio? Is it throttle by wire? If not and you mash on the gas from a dead stop, does it try to combust a few cycles at 50:1 compression? If so, the engine will not last long. It will break parts quicker than you can say "cast aluminum piston".

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    24. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by fgouget · · Score: 1

      No, we are forced to subsidize the corn-based ethanol producers. There is no choose in this when the money comes from our taxes.

      Right but your taxes will subsidize corn ethanol no matter what kind of engine you use so this cannot count as a point against this new engine. I guess paiute's point was more that, from an ecological standpoint, Flex-Fuel engines are no better than regular engines as long as the only choice is corn ethanol. In that view this new engine's only advantage is the 10% reduction in fuel consumption.

    25. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm guessing it uses a knock sensor as well. Current use of knock sensors can vary valve timing to change the effective compression ratio from ~11:1 to about 9:1. However, I'm not sure a knock sensor strategy is the most durable choice for such extreme changes in compression as demonstrated here.

      I'm speculating that if Lotus has used the knock sensor to control compression ratio, the engine won't run very well for a few miles after each fill up. This would be because the ECU would essentially have to remap everything for the new fuel.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    26. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...a significant portion of cars in Brasil are ethanol-based. Not from corn but from sugar cane. This started in the late-70's and is still going strong.

      Yes, and the rain forest loves them for it. Who needs those damn trees anyway?

    27. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The combustion of H and O2 yields H2O but I have yet to see the spectrum of the exhaust gases of H - Atmosphere - Oil Vapor combustion.

      Erm. I hate to break this to you... but in a fuel cell vehicle, Hydrogen isn't actually burned, at least not in the normal sense. The hydrogen reacts with oxygen through a membrane by passing it's electron. At the end of the circuit, the two are combined to create water. So, the 'exhaust gasses' are 100% water. It's where the Space Shuttle's drinking water supply actually comes from.

      Other than that... spot on. Hydrogen as an 'energy source' is pure bullshit. (You can't MINE HYDROGEN. There's no free source of hydrogen anywhere on the planet... so your two choices are either hydrolyzing water (VERY energy intensive), a fossil fuel of some sort (Then why not burn it directly?), or maybe some option we'll get around to... eventually).

      The only way Hydrogen is 'green' is if they start up a bunch of nuke plants near the ocean, and start hydrolyzing. Oh, and reprocess the fuel. And use the 'hot waste' in a new type of reactor. And keep the hippies from flying their private jets to protest. And preventing the water from getting to salty. And...

    28. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by formfeed · · Score: 1

      Rapeseed is what causes rape.

    29. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I have a lot of friends that are corn farmers and they would all love to know about how to get this supposed corn subsidy

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    30. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    31. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      At a steady 60 mph on a level road, 20 hp is a reasonable estimate for an average passenger vehicle. That's about 15 kW.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    32. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

      Agreed, on a very level road, with an average coefficient of friction and no head wind, no acceleration,

      That being said of the SF Bay bridge 30% of it is about a 1% grade up hill, about 50% of it is level and about 20% is about a .5% grade down hill with winds that increase induced drag so I would guess more like 50 hp so around 3 MW of increased load on the public power grid.

      But lets not quibble, that is for only 250,000 cars. The number of registered vehicles in the state of California is about 2.8 million.

      So if we can take an average of 21KW ( 30hp ) * 2.8 Million = 58GW ( yes gigawatts ) of additional electrical generating capacity. Contrast with current electrical peak demand for today of the State of California of 32 GW and I gotta tell ya, I just don't see how it is going to happen.

      Now you can massage those number, estimate how many cars are going to need recharging overnight, what percentage will be on the road at any one time etc. but if my estimation is to high be even 50% then that still laves us short of about 29GW of Generation capacity.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    33. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      The problem with this is that ethanol isn't particularly green at this point and most engines have been tuned for regular gasoline, not high-octane ethanol blends. So they aren't particularly efficient at running pure ethanol, further reducing any green gains.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    34. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by adolf · · Score: 1

      The video shows wildly-varying compression ratios depending on instantaneous load, up to 50:1.

      I'd say, then, that the engine must learn the characteristics of the fuel which happens to be in use very, very quickly in order to achieve this. It's not so much adjusting for the last fillup, as it is adjusting for the conditions at this very moment.

      I would guess that a knock sensor (or similar magic, perhaps in plural) and fancy software does the trick. I'd guess that they use somewhat risky engine management, as opposed to the very conservative and slow tuning performed by typical ECUs. This would allow it to be very aggressive, while not exceeding the mechanical limits of the engine, as it learned the limits of the particular fuel which is in use in order to maximize economy or power (whichever it might be being asked for at the moment), or anything in between.

      Just because it takes a typical engine a good while to adjust, does not mean that it's impossible to improve that adjustment period to just a few cycles.

    35. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by adolf · · Score: 1

      I, for one, welcome any combination of hydroelectric, geothermal, solar, wind, or nuclear facilities in my own backyard, as long as I get to keep some meaningful residual income from it. I would also welcome the addition of one or more cellular towers to my estate, under the same pretense.

      Others may vary.

    36. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      Is their name Archer, Daniels or Midland? No? Then they're shit outta luck.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    37. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by idji · · Score: 1

      and there is nothing environmentally desirable about the mono-culture of rapeseed, which rapes the soil of nutrients, requiring (usually mineral) fertilizers, which ruin the nitrogen content of waterways - and the fertilizers had their own CO2 costs of production - as well as being a non-renewable resource.
      I'm waiting for someone to calculate the real cost of any of these "bio" fuels. Mostly the environmental damage is virtualized away so no-one notices (like seabed death 100's of miles away due of excessive N2 runoff)

    38. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by NelsChristian · · Score: 1
      Electricity - which is made mostly from burning coal, which generates more C02 per BTU than does burning gasoline.

      Until they start advocating nuclear power, the greenie solution is to freeze in the dark. And all for a bogus AGW scare.

    39. Re:10% improvement isn't that much by MrResistor · · Score: 1

      The combustion of H and O2 yields H2O but I have yet to see the spectrum of the exhaust gases of H - Atmosphere - Oil Vapor combustion.

      I suspect it is something quite different then what the public has been sold since our atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases.

      Given that "combustion" is just a colloquial term for rapid oxidation -- as in "this thing here combining with oxygen" -- I think your concern is unwarranted.

      Until we find a way to isolate H from available sources with an efficiency factor an order of magnitude better then what we have now the cost will stay prohibitive.

      I can put a solar panel on my roof and crack water all day long. If I'm not getting enough I can put up another solar panel. Yeah, improved efficiency might mean I need fewer panels, which could save me some money, but even at current efficiency levels I'm pretty sure I'd be saving money compared to what I'm currently spending on gasoline.

      Electric cars are mostly a shift of the pollution problem from individual grossly inefficient power generation ( the engine burning petroleum ) to the very very large and vastly more efficient, even when using the exact same fuel, new power plants that would have to be built to charge those batteries.

      Fixed that for you.

      Even if we're talking about fossil fuel power generation, those engines can be run at a constant RPM, usually in the optimal range for that engine design, giving a huge boost in efficiency. One of the reasons car engines are so inefficient is that they spend so much time out of their optimal range, simply as a consequence of the environment they're operating in. That's why there's a difference between city and highway MPG.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
  10. Aha! by hades.himself · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Now I just need the Flux Capacitor and I'm outta here!

  11. New news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The comments on the youtube video date back to 9 months ago, how is this recent news?

  12. One remaining problem: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the linked Wikipedia list:
    "Better fuel economy (18 US mpg)"

    Also another manufacturer's story:
    http://www.rover.org.nz/pages/jet/jet5.htm
    (20mpg FWIW)

  13. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by rufty_tufty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dude, Chill!

    Let's assume you're right and it could have been done 30 years ago (it couldn't but I'll get to that later). It's newsworthy because no-one has done this before, in fact it's more newsworthy if someone has a really obvious idea that no-one has done before. I'm sure the first person to stick an internal combustion or steam engine on a cart was told it was a really obvious idea, but the first horseless carriage still deserved to be big news. I'd certainly class a major engine development as being as newsworthy as the latest revision of the Linux kernel being released.

    As I understand the article they're using direct injection similar to that used in modern performance diesels. This is a relatively new technology that requires very high pressure fuel injectors which are still a developing technology and weren't available 10 years ago never mind 30. Don't forget mechanical engineering is a much slower moving field than software - they have to design and test things in their field before they release them ;-)

    --
    "The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
  14. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by Raptoer · · Score: 1

    Oh, and the government has put spy chips in our heads too!

    In all seriousness, this whole big oil conspiracy is a load of junk. I'm sure the oil companies would do that if they could, but look at it from the car company point of view. If a car company could come out and say "Hey! we got a car that gets amazing mpg and behaves just like any other car!" they would have an instant fortune. How exactly would oil companies go about stopping these companies? I've never heard of oil companies buying car companies, left and right. Did they go and kill everyone who has worked on a high efficiency engine program?

    Whats changed more than anything recently is modeling software and rapid prototyping. There is only so much math you can do by hand when trying to model an internal combustion engine while it's running. For a long time we made engines with trial and error and whatever math could be done by hand, but now we're at the point where we can make accurate simulations of the workings of an engine. Hell I wouldn't doubt if they run these simulations with genetic algorithms trying to find the right shape or timings to run in a prototype.

    As for this engine compared to that battery, there they've said "we have this working battery, it's not all that good, but it works!" and here we have "Not only does it work, but it's current form is better than other engines!"

    Additionally it is in the oil companies' best interest to develop production of producible fuels (rather than extracted fuels) because the costs for extracting keep going up, and the amount of energy required to extract keeps going up. Eventually we will run out of oil, it's a matter of when. Once the price gets high enough if one company has been investing in producible fuels while the others have been slacking off, they have an opportunity to make massive amounts of money.

    Ideally the best solution is using the electricity generated from a fission nuclear power plant to power the vehicles, indirectly through some storage medium. The question then becomes which storage medium? Hydrogen is inefficient and a compressed gas, making cars into mobile flamethrowers (since there is no oxygen in the tank it won't explode, but any that escapes will sure burn, and any rupture in the tank is a lot worse when working with a compressed gas than with a vaporous liquid like gasoline). Batteries will require large amounts of certain metals (I don't know what the current estimates for usage versus supply of battery metals are, but there are a LOT of cars in the world) and don't have the energy density of gasoline. This leaves us with biologically derived fuels. Let me first say that this whole 'ethanol from corn' is the true load of crap that being fed to Americans, corn is terrible for production of ethanol. It would be better if we could get the enzymes that break down cellulose into a fuel to work right, but we're not quite there yet. Algae grown in large salt water ponds are our best option currently, but that doesn't get the corn area swing votes quite as well as making a whole new use of the staple crop for several states.

    So, in conclusion, nuclear fission power plants (with reprocessing, and newer reactor designs) used to power a storage medium for cars. Tada! Ok, not that simple, but more or less, yeah.

  15. Agnostic engine by ptjapkes · · Score: 1

    So Lotus has created an engine that believes that nothing is known or can be known about the existence of fuel.

    1. Re:Agnostic engine by DigitalReverend · · Score: 1

      I thought the same thing, but I think in this context it means that the engine is not committed to a specific type of fuel.

      --
      I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
    2. Re:Agnostic engine by NelsChristian · · Score: 1
      Other than it is liquid and burns in air, and at a low enough temp not to melt the engine parts.

      More important might be that not much is known about what politicians will do ....

  16. Here is the "deeply disturbing" comment by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

    :)

    "[citation needed]" ... reminds me of wikipedia

  17. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by somersault · · Score: 1

    This engine looks to be a lot more complex than the usual two strokes, so it will cost a lot more to manufacture and maintain, a lot more to design and engineer, will have lower yield rates/higher failure rates so it will cost the customer a lot more money. So, as a consumer of engines, do you spend possibly twice as much on the engine because it is 10% more efficient?

    They key words there being "two strokes". It's very possible it's still cheaper to make and simpler to maintain than the equivalent powered four stroke engines.

    --
    which is totally what she said
  18. Lotus is making Car Engines? by rssrss · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I thought they did software like Notes and were owned by IBM.

    --
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    1. Re:Lotus is making Car Engines? by Nerdfest · · Score: 1

      They now make alternative fuel engines. They run on the screams and nightmares of users.

  19. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    Which means this is nothing that a team of imaginative engineers couldn't have come up with long ago

    So is most of the new technology that you see. Even special relativity is obvious in retrospect.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  20. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    In all seriousness, this whole big oil conspiracy is a load of junk.

    You say that with such certainty that you must have some pretty solid reasoning and knowledge on the subject. --Or be operating from a comfortable state of nearly perfect ignorance. Let's see which it is. . .

    I'm sure the oil companies would do that if they could, but look at it from the car company point of view. If a car company could come out and say "Hey! we got a car that gets amazing mpg and behaves just like any other car!" they would have an instant fortune. How exactly would oil companies go about stopping these companies? I've never heard of oil companies buying car companies, left and right. Did they go and kill everyone who has worked on a high efficiency engine program?

    Oh boy. I don't want to be insulting, but this is extremely naive.

    You could benefit from some reading on the events of the last century. First of all, it isn't oil companies. It's the oil elect. Many of them are politicians and decision makers in other key industries and boards. Oil is just one of the dominant forms of wealth, and so it is controlled by old money, along with every other significant sector of society, including the media, pharma, arms, banking and information industries. Collectively, this has been variously dubbed the Military Industrial Complex, and you can bet your socks it does whatever necessary to control power and wealth. Usually people don't need to be killed in order for secrets to be kept. Rather, you only hire on people who have been effectively programmed through schooling to be cognitively dissonant, (able to look facts in the face and yet continue believing contrary dictates), you silence them with non-disclosure agreements involving harsh threats for failure to comply, use simple bullying when that is not enough, character assassination when they get out of hand, and when things are dire, resort to murders, of which there are far too many examples. But primarily, simply training people to have a fear of seeking beyond orthodox beliefs is 99% effective. --As a practical example, consider your own reactions; You'd probably have a lot of trouble telling somebody that you believe in Astrology, and not just from any logical perspective, but rather from a deeply-felt gut wrenching imperative stemming from deep within. That sweaty-palmed sick feeling is evidence of the Pavlovian mind programming we've all been exposed to. It is both invisible and ubiquitous throughout society. It is deliberately inserted through simple techniques, it is easy for our controllers to modify after it is implanted, and it is incredibly effective in controlling human behavior.

    I barely even know which way to point you on this. Perhaps this book would be a good start. "Farewell America" is fairly well accepted to have been authored by the French equivalent of the CIA, and based on hard intelligence gathered from French, Russian, and even American sources. It was originally published in French in 1968, but it was unavailable in the United States for many years. With the coming of the worldwide web, this is no longer true. With regard to this posting thread, it covers the involvement of the oil and arms industry.

    Good luck.

    -FL

  21. How does this compare to OPOC engine? by georgep77 · · Score: 1

    I wonder how this compares to the OPOC engine that is being developed by the same guy who did the TDI for VW. Check out the nifty flash animation: http://www.ecomotors.com/ . I think the new found focus on economy is starting to (finally) spur some innovation in this area.

    1. Re:How does this compare to OPOC engine? by ubercam · · Score: 1

      Thanks for providing that link. That engine is fascinating. It's like a 4 cylinder in 2 cylinders. They are also developing a turbo that incorporates an electric motor to provide supercharging at lower rpms before the exhaust velocity is high enough to drive the compressor. Very interesting company to say the least!

  22. Dear Conspiracy Nut by amcdiarmid · · Score: 1

    Yes, Two stroke engines have been around for a long time. However, this engine purports to be a clean two stroke - something that has not been around a long time. Anyone with an mid-70's two stroke motorcycle could probably go around the block before biking in their own smoke - so yes, this is new.

    The advantage of this "system" is obviously 1) it's light, 2) it's clean; 3) it can use multiple fuel types.
    1) A light engine can be combined with a generator; a battery. Think Electric-Car.
              If the battery in an electric car is large enough to run ~30 miles; the car has a sufficiently strong auxillary motor (not enough to drive the car fast uphill, but enough to repower the battery between the downhill & uphill) - this makes an electric type car better. A "more complex" two stroke should be lighter than a four stroke; make the Electric car significantly better. (Personally, I drive under six miles most days. Occasionally I want to visit friends who live outside the range for a purely electric vehicle - requiring me to have a conventional vehicle, or an expensive one with multiple power systems.)

    2) If the engine is as clean as a four stroke, then the engine is as clean as a four stroke. EG: you will be able to use it in a production vehicle without as much pollution as a conventional two stroke.

    3) It can use multiple fuel types: EG: You can fill it with Gas, Diesel, Algie-Diesel - or if you're in a 3rd world country: you can use Strained Fryer Grease (Diesel Fuel) from Bob's Yak stand. (May only work in warm climates, not recommended for stoned hippies, etc...)

    So yes, if this works as implied this is a good solution that represents a significant improvement over a four stroke engine. (Not to say that the moving-puch cylinder head would not work in a four-banger.) For a company that makes very light vehicles, and is working on an "electric-type" vehicle - this solution makes emminent sense. Please insert this in your tin-foil hat so the Govenment does not leak it to the Big Oil companies.

    1. Re:Dear Conspiracy Nut by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

      Yes, Two stroke engines have been around for a long time. However, this engine purports to be a clean two stroke - something that has not been around a long time. Anyone with an mid-70's two stroke motorcycle could probably go around the block before biking in their own smoke - so yes, this is new.

      That's apples and oranges. Two stroke engines of the kind you're referring to had (and still have) oil mixed in with the fuel so that they self-lubricate. As the oil burns, it is indeed very smokey. This has exactly nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

      Anybody who suggests that a team of smart engineers in the 70's couldn't have come up with a motor more clean and efficient than a crappy lawn mower engine is not considering things carefully enough.

      I'm not saying that this new engine isn't Clever. I'm saying that "Clever" has been around a lot longer than just the last couple of years; And that the thing holding it back has been greed, fear and evil.

      -FL

    2. Re:Dear Conspiracy Nut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, this engine purports to be a clean two stroke - something that has not been around a long time. Anyone with an mid-70's two stroke motorcycle could probably go around the block before biking in their own smoke - so yes, this is new.

      In defense of the other poster, this really doesn't mean jack until they *ship* it and it's not the first time a car company has claimed they have a clean 2-stroke engine that is going to deliver more power / better efficiency than a 2-stroke. I remember Chrysler making the same claims around 1990 - I believe they even had an infomercial-type commercial about it. It was supposed to be available in the Dodge Neon.

      Here's a link for those interested: http://www.allpar.com/neon/stroke.html
      Also note that it claimed to have a monoblock design, direct injection working at 1000psi, etc. The project apparently died not because they couldn't get it to meet NOx emissions.

      People make wild, pr-grabbing claims every day and most of it never ships. And yes, this to me sounds like more of a PR campaign than something that will ever ship.

  23. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    So is most of the new technology that you see. Even special relativity is obvious in retrospect.

    You appear to be suggesting that everybody who has been thinking about how to improve internal combustion engines over the years simply failed to come up with anything smart.

    If you read through just the examples posted among the comments for this story, I think you'll find such a position is untenable. Heck, there's one example in an adjacent response to this exact post which describes a significantly more efficient carburetor mechanism designed by apprentice engineers which was rejected because of the supposed manufacturing costs. (Which is ridiculous; the whole point of the industrial revolution is that manufacturing costs become negligible once factories are tooled up and a market for millions of copies exists.)

    The brain spark was burning gasoline in the first place. Everything since then has largely been a matter of mechanics and efficiency management. If good ideas are only just now coming up, then the last half century's worth of engineers have been pretty thick. I think in this instance, one can safely invoke even Occam for guidance on that question!

    -FL

  24. A very promising engine by fgaliegue · · Score: 1

    Not only is it a two-stroke engine, which are inherently more efficient than four-stroke engines, but it also limits the moving parts to a minimum. And Lotus never boasts about something it cannot do. However, I'd like to see a multicylinder version of it.

    And that's no mean feature when you see the number of moving parts in today's engines fitted with variable valve timing/lift systems (which, of course, the switch to electric propulsion will avoid altogether).

    The question is, however, is it too late? And imho, there is a "yes" and a "no".

    Yes, the electric motors have been long proven to work.

    No, the weight/energy ratio of electricity sucks. No, other (really!) "CO2 clean" fuels already exist, with engines already able to run on them (this particular engine included).

    The future looks promising anyway. Now, I just wish that the car manufacturers turned more effort into removing weight. Even if that means stepping back on safety features - after all, nothing has been done yet on the driver training front.

  25. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    Thank-you for offering the first reasonable-sounding notes among this spate of responses.

    What a day!

    -FL

  26. Narrow Power Band? by Virtucon · · Score: 1

    Two Strokes are notorious for having a narrow power band. I wonder if they'll couple this with an CVT transmission to keep the engine in the best efficiency range? Also, I'd be curious to see how the pipe tuning holds out especially in road vehicles.

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  27. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    To paraphrase Robin Williams; Never have I seen a slashdotter in more dire need of a blowjob.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  28. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by TapeCutter · · Score: 0

    "You appear to be suggesting that everybody who has been thinking about how to improve internal combustion engines over the years simply failed to come up with anything smart."

    No that's the implication of your statement, not his.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  29. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    You appear to be suggesting that everybody who has been thinking about how to improve internal combustion engines over the years simply failed to come up with anything smart.

    No, merely that a lot of the improvements we've seen in internal combustion engines have been along these lines (things that were physically possible decades earlier but needed someone to think of them). The fact that we haven't seen this particular improvement before just means that no one thought of it. No conspiracy needed.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  30. L.O.T.U.S by philipmather · · Score: 0

    You do know that Lotus is commonly held to stand for "Loads Of Trouble Usually Serious" and that it usually relates to mechanical problems with the engine?

    That said to mitigate getting marked as a Troll I don't think that slander has had any serious merit for more than a decade. I believe some also inferred the accusation occasionally related to the suspension which, given Lotus are generally the go to people for handling would suggest that it's only because they try so hard in the first place that they occasionally chucked out a duffer. Like Aston or Lancia many moons ago.

    Anyway, mines the Exige 260 in nose-bleed orange please ;^)

    --
    Regards, Phil
  31. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

    I believe this could work, and in fact it is what I advocate, and what will be done in more economically free countries (ironically including China which is already building the infrastructure now). There are no technological challenges that I see, only political ones.

    Regarding how to store the relatively cheap electricity we could be getting from fission done right, the easiest way in the short term would be by coal gasification. This would allow us to convert low-quality, high-sulfur coal, which we have in abundance in the U.S. (and also in China, Russia, and India), into a higher-quality, less polluting, but definitely non-carbon-neutral liquid fuel. Eventually, the incremental improvements we are already seeing in fuel cell technology should allow us to transition to carbon-neutral or carbon-negative methods of storing and converting energy.

    The market will work if we let it. We won't completely run out of oil, but as proven and recoverable reserves shrink, prices will rise, making other forms of energy production more competitive. Carbon emissions will not shrink in the near term due to growth in the developing world, but if sustainable green technology is developed in the wealthier nations, it can be shared so as to allow other places to develop more cleanly and sustainably. (I don't believe in AGW but I understand there are other good reasons to wean ourselves from oil dependency, and I also understand that energy usage is one of the prime determinants of quality of life and we should be looking for ways to provide clean energy, not forcing people at gunpoint to use less of it.)

  32. Not the engines by Quila · · Score: 1

    It usually has to do with the parts around the engine. Lotus' initial quality control isn't the greatest, and they've put some parts where they shouldn't in the past.

    As far as the engines, Lotus is famous for tricking out existing engines, from the ancient Fords to GM in the Opel Omega to the modern Toyotas in your Exige dream. They've even gone ethanol for that in testing.

  33. Oldsmobile diesel NOT based on a gasoline engine by SaDan · · Score: 1

    I don't know why people still think the Oldsmobile diesel was based on a gasoline engine. It wasn't.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine#LF9_Diesel

  34. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

    I for one do understand the military/industrial/banking/education/media/medical/pharma complex, and in fact I am part of it (not because I'm proud of it, but because I must feed my family and have no other way to do so). I agree for the most part with your observations. But it does NOT control the entire world, and in fact it is being kept on an increasingly short leash by those who do, by those whose money is older by centuries than the American experiment itself. They view American imperialism and militarism as no longer a business opportunity, but rather a significant threat to their entire way of life. They are engineering a war that will end this threat, while preserving their own wealth and investments by shifting them to the places they believe will survive and even prosper in the aftermath of that war.

    Energy is indeed being suppressed; people are being manipulated to believe that it is scarce and dangerous and that consuming it is a bad thing. And oil, which most people equate with energy, is indeed scarce at the moment. But, in the form of uranium, thorium, and coal (which can be converted to cleaner forms of energy), among other things, there is PLENTY. The US and world elites are struggling to maintain control over it, which means both ensuring that they have "their" share but also that others do not, since this way others can be manipulated into fighting each other for it and increasing its value. But the resulting shortages that all of us normal people see are PURELY political in nature. Even barring any future technological innovations, there is plenty of energy for all of us, and our descendants, and theirs, for generations to come. We just aren't being allowed to access it.

  35. Re:damn unamerican activists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interesting. This post seems to have been typed on a french keyboard (or possibly a variant), judging from the typo of the word "my" as "mùy".

    There is no other keyboard I'm aware of that would make it remotely possible to misspell "my" as "mùy".

  36. Plug in Hybrid engine by jzarling · · Score: 1

    This might be a great power plant for a plug in hybrid.
    If it can be a clean as a petrol, or the new diesel tech.

    --
    It is better to be the hammer than the anvil.
    1. Re:Plug in Hybrid engine by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      No, it has no special advantages as a range extender for plug-in hybrid use. In fact, its major design feature (switching between high-torque and high-efficiency) aren't needed when the engine is only used to turn a generator.

  37. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    The fact that we haven't seen this particular improvement before just means that no one thought of it. No conspiracy needed.

    You're right, but for the wrong reasons.

    Ideas are just ideas. They come when they are called for. Finding a more efficient alternative to the existing design paradigm is just a matter of hiring a diverse group of people to come up with novel solutions using the materials and tools available. That's where this idea came from. I doubt very much that it was a brain spark which, upon its discovery, was heralded to the top of the car-making empire by a bright-eyed inventor. No. I suspect that a design team was hired to build an efficient engine capable of burning bio-fuels in response to the shifting nature of the fuel industry.

    The, so-called "Conspiracy" is simply that there have been forces present resisting this kind of activity because the old ways are perceived as safer, tried & true and just too risky a flow to work against. I don't call that "conspiracy". I call it cowardly and stupid. It's just plain lazy corruption, greed and the force of people too scared of losing their jobs to rock the boat in any significant manner. Why is it that sceptics perceive every complaint offered against the public-relations brochure/TV version of reality as a claim of conscious and deliberate "Conspiracy"? -A brush up on the fundamentals of basic human nature would go a long way to quelling their desire to rationalize everything into a false reality where no government or corporate body ever tells a lie.

    It's never black & white, of course. The human creative muscle has its phases, one idea builds upon the next to be certain. It would be silly to ignore how the process of invention works. But it would be equally silly to pretend that corrupt forces do not exist when it is clearly evident that they do. All I'm saying is that this engine and the people who designed it may well be brilliant, but that it's peanuts compared to what could have been if corrupt forces were not acting on the world as a whole.

    -FL

  38. That'll show those pranksters. by zill · · Score: 1

    Excellent.

    If those damn kids put sugar in my gas tank again, I'll get cinnamon buns now instead of a dead engine.

  39. DOh! by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    oops.. yer right....

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  40. Old 2-strokes are NOT "better in absolute terms" by dr2chase · · Score: 4, Informative

    I learned to drive in a 2-stroke car -- a 1968 Saab, AFAIK the last 2-stroke car that could legally be sold in the US (50CID was the limit for that year, it was at or a hair under). They are not better in absolute terms, old style 2-strokes are just plain filthy. Their rear mufflers would not rust, instead they would become plugged with a mixture of soot and partially-burned gunk. If you left one of those cars idling for too long next to another car, you would leave an sooty oily spot from the exhaust. You could rejuvenate a muffler, if you had access to a trash fire or bonfire, by cooking it to bake/burn off the gunk.

    Using synthetic oil for lubrication helps a little bit, because it is formulated to burn better, but in general, there is no way that these cars were cleaner.

    So -- I actually drove one for years, actually worked on their exhaust system, actually left one idling next to another car for too long, and have seen all this with my own eyes. Where did you get your information? I'm curious to know what would cause someone to spout such obvious nonsense with such self-assured authority.

  41. It's incredible... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

    It's really amazing how they can do so well in engine design and yet put out software that causes this much consternation...

    --
    That is all.
  42. Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's compare apples to apples. Gas engines currently run on at least 30 ppm sulfur and are beating diesel in emissions, which run on 15 ppm sulfur. Don't forget about aftertreatment devices.

    Americans are right to think that diesels are dirty. All those VW TDIs with high mpg? Ya, they're dirty. Don't kid yourself.

    1. Re:Wrong by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Any source and more information would always be welcomed.

  43. Emissions? by istartedi · · Score: 1

    Would it pass in California? Probably not. You see two-stroke scooters around here sometimes. I don't know if they're legal or not, but I know they STINK when they go by, especially if they're not well maintained.

    Odds seem slim that California would ever allow a production two-stroke automobile on the road, unless they could prove that it throws out less emissions than a regular car. They are already quite strict about Diesels from my understanding (although you can still get them if you really want one). Part of the Diesel requirements are that you have to prove an older engine doesn't become a heavy polluter under regular use. Two-strokes would probably have a similar procedure.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  44. My bad ride by tgrigsby · · Score: 1

    Oh, man... I'm picturing being *that guy*, the one that rolls out his riding lawnmower with the Lotus symbol on the hood... All my neighbors would stop pushing their mowers to watch my gleaming grass cutting muscle machine in amazement and envy. Cue Tim Allen caveman grunts...

    Awww yeah...

    --
    *** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
  45. Re:Oldsmobile diesel NOT based on a gasoline engin by pyrr · · Score: 1

    The fact is, they were a slightly modified gasoline engine design. That's the problem. Sure, you can beef-up the crank, change the pistons slightly, and cast from a different alloy, but it's still a bad design for a diesel engine. Diesels have different design considerations, and aside from the 4-cycle basic layout that diesels and gasoline engines have in common, they really need to be designed from scratch.

    As a result, it was rather unreliable and underpowered. I found it amusing you could have a car in the NADA Older Used Cars book that had a book value of $400, with a $500 deduction for having that godawful engine in it.

    The 6.2/6.5 GM diesel engines weren't really that much better. They're more powerful and a somewhat better design, but they still miss the mark on reliability and were prone to overheating because they just weren't designed to have enough oil volume, adequate oil or block cooling systems, and the other little things that keep diesels reliable (like good fuel filters and fuel-water separators) were absent from the implementation. I was not impressed by the 6.2l engine in a Chevy truck I had a number of years ago. It simply didn't have the diesel reliability and other traits I expect. I have a good bit of experience owning, operating, maintaining, and making minor repairs to a whole lot of diesel engines (I owned & operated an excavating & trucking business), those older Chevy engines are really the only diesel engine I actively avoid and consider dealbreakers. It's just not worth the brain damage when you can get a real diesel engine that gets the job done and is reliable like a good diesel is.

  46. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by Optic7 · · Score: 1

    The people allowing this stuff to float to the top of global media-consciousness don't care about the actual state of human affairs or about the genuinely awesome things we could be actually doing with technology.

    Argh, you can't say something like that and leave your readers hanging, wondering what "genuinely awesome things we could actually be doing with technology." Please provide some examples. Thanks.

  47. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What about this is new?

    From the article, "The primary component of the variable compression ratio mechanism is what is termed the 'puck', or a moveable junk piston in the cylinder head." That's pretty new.

  48. Indeed. by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    Energy is indeed being suppressed; people are being manipulated to believe that it is scarce and dangerous and that consuming it is a bad thing. And oil, which most people equate with energy, is indeed scarce at the moment. But, in the form of uranium, thorium, and coal (which can be converted to cleaner forms of energy), among other things, there is PLENTY. The US and world elites are struggling to maintain control over it, which means both ensuring that they have "their" share but also that others do not, since this way others can be manipulated into fighting each other for it and increasing its value. But the resulting shortages that all of us normal people see are PURELY political in nature. Even barring any future technological innovations, there is plenty of energy for all of us, and our descendants, and theirs, for generations to come. We just aren't being allowed to access it.

    This is the most insightful and useful comment anybody has made in thus far in this whole thread.

    -FL

  49. Re:Oldsmobile diesel NOT based on a gasoline engin by thebigmacd · · Score: 1

    I find this to be an interesting discussion, because although everyone blames the GM diesels' problems on being a modified gasoline engine, some of the most well-known and reliable "classic" Diesel engines in cars were nearly identical to their gasoline counterparts: VW 1.5, 1.6, and 1.9 Diesels and BMW 2.4L Diesels. The 1980's VW 1.5-1.9 engine blocks were nearly identical to 1.8-2.0L gasoline engines, with bore spacing, etc being identical. The same goes for the BMW 324TD and 325e/i...the cranks are swappable etc.

    The problem (as your post supports) is poor design choices, not the base from which they were derived.

  50. Ever hear of Mazda? by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    The 2009 RX8 is rated at 22 highway mpg by the EPA. The bigger, heavier, faster Corvette is rated at 25 mpg. So yeah, the rotary is a great, powerful, compact engine. Unless you care about fuel economy.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have an RX8, as long as someone else was paying for the gas.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    1. Re:Ever hear of Mazda? by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      and Corolla GT does 36mpg, in a 950kg, 124hp package from mid 80s and BMW M3 first model does 29-30mpg with ~200hp.

      200SX does ~30mpg aswell.

      BMW 750 does around 20-22mpg aswell.

      A 80s RWD corolla 1.6l does around 30mpg aswell.

      A Skyline GT-R i'd assume does around 20-22mpg aswell.

      As you can see, mpg has very little to do with engine size, power, vehicle weight etc. when all the other variables keeps changing.

      What if the Corvette utilizes direct port injection, direct ignition etc, while RX8 utilizes normal fuel injection and say wasted spark ignition? These are variables which has to be accounted for when doing a serious comparison of the engine type.

  51. Re:Uh huh. Just add to the Copenhagen free promoti by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    If you aren't competent enough to know the difference between silicon and silicone, you're nowhere near competent enough to make decisions on the other subjects you mentioned.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  52. Because of a typo. . ??? by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    If you aren't competent enough to know the difference between silicon and silicone, you're nowhere near competent enough to make decisions on the other subjects you mentioned.

    I've seen this pattern far too many times; people who are so desperate to avoid thinking, they will latch on to the first flaw, no matter how small and irrelevant, even something as minor as a typo (*cough*), and toss out everything else based on that. --It has been my experience that this never has anything to do with the actual noted flaw, and everything to do with deeper emotional issues.

    I knew a guy who told me, in all seriousness, that he didn't like science fiction books, (ALL science fiction books), because one book he'd read had been poorly written. --The actual problem being that he found the act of reading itself difficult (due to minor dyslexia) and so needed an external excuse to not have to engage with books at all.

    The difference being that that person was just a kid. Half-baked evasion techniques are excusable in kids.

    How old are you?

    -FL